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Why does that preclude the deal the EU has already accepted and we’re still squabbling over?
Because it's been rejected so many times.
why would anyone believe revocation will be more successful?
I don't know if it would tbh.
Vote for who ever you agree with, even if they can’t win.
UKIP's vote doubled in the Newport by election 😉 poor 37% turnout though.
It would affect the turnout figures and politicians could be challenged as to why they thought they could speak for us all when getting less than 20% of the votes, for example.
You mean like in the EU parliament,total turnout 35% and police commisioners elections,total turnout 15 % in 2012?? 😉
If my or any other trade union wants to go on strike we are required by law to have a 50% turnout or it isn't valid....even though 85% voted for strike action over paylast year
Someone in the Indy suggesting that the EU can't allow no-deal because of what it would do to Ireland:
The first [possibility] is that the EU grants the UK a never-ending series of extensions to Article 50 until the reality that leaving the bloc is a practical impossibility becomes apparent to even the most truculent Brexiteer. Rather like the way in which Turkey was promised the right to enter the EU back in 1961 but all concerned have never quite got around to organising it, so too with Brexit – a permanent question mark over Britain’s membership of the EU, from which neither side can disentangle itself.
The second option is that the UK simply revokes Article 50, recognising at long last that the Brexit project is collapsing under the weight of its own logical contradictions.
I really can’t get my head around it.
It's simple really.
"We" voted to Leave back in 2016.
It's now 2019 and "we" have not been presented with a form of Leave "we" prefer to keeping membership. Perhaps there isn't one? If there is, than those that proposed that we Leave should get behind it, get it through Parliament, and then campaign for the public to vote for it in a Referendum. If there is only a minority of MPs and the public that prefer a particular form of Leave, then it should not be forced on us.
EU have rejected May's extension request, as it is too vague in the supposed plan to break the deadlock.
It is boys against men, and the UK's humiliation gets worst every second it continues.
Wise (for them). What would be the point in another month of this? A decision needs making. We're ready to make it if May & MPs won't… they can just ask us. If she says she'll ask us, the EU & the other European governments will probably throw us a bone and allow a delay while that process is carried out.
If she just wants to can kick instead… there is only one way of doing so and not be subservient to other governments…
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1114090313432408064?s=21
And that is why we are in this mess.
Because people keep making unsubstantiated claims and then changing the subject when challenged on it, only to then repeat the same thing a few days later? I agree.
Because it’s been rejected so many times.
... by us. We could go "oh, OK then" on May's deal tomorrow, could we not?
Sorry to drag this back to "even a no confidence vote won't stop a no deal exit if May decides the Tory party insist on it"… but this thread explains it well…
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1114207033480372224?s=21
Labour whipping to abstain on the vote to give parliament a vote on revoke vs no deal, if it comes to that in the final days, leaves May with all the power. Why did that whip occur, when all it did was prevent unilateral destructive power being removed from May's hands? That was the point where even a fresh pivot to a genuinely pro referendum position will not win me over… that was the move that means the current leadership must go for Labour to be trusted, for me. It not only kept no deal in play, but it abdicated the leadership's responsibility to take power from the Tory government where it can, for the people who voted Labour (including me) to deny May power.
So managed a good days riding....
On eu elections my mother looks after the local village hall which is the polling station a please can we book it message came through this week.
The bigger issue is the kicking the tories will get in the locals, that could do for May with the party.
On the 2nd ref to cut through all the crap, leave fluked it, they got the wind right, went at the tight time and landed where they wanted. The chances of it happening again aslre slim that is the only reason people suddenly give a shit about manifesto promises and democratic principles, so long as they can block anything that will stop brexit that is legit. More people need to be called out on that.
I'm guessing may will be out soon to say Labour tried to extort her etc.
If you look around at the moment I'd much rather be governed by the eu than this lot.
That was the point where even a fresh pivot to a genuinely pro referendum position will not win me over
I’m sure the labour leadership we’re really worried about what your opinion is 😀
Seriously though, you know full well the vote on revocation vs no deal would never carry so why would you expect labour to damage itself by whipping for it?
Meanwhile,
Carl Husted, who is standing in upcoming Nottingham City Council elections, wrote on Facebook... “The petition to revoke Article 50 now has the same number of signatures as the number of people who voted for Hitler’s Nazi party in 1930 Germany.
“Although Hitler didn’t have the benefit of petition signing bots and signatures from North Korea, Syria, Russia etc. So not quite as popular as 1930s nazism but edging closer. #godwinslaw.”
Because we are only a couple of days away before we don't have the time to have a say and we have to rely on May not to not go with no deal, by revoking.
The labour party will suffer hard if they are seen to facilitate Tory hard Brexit Dazh.
If you don't get that, you are deluded or a brexiteer in disguise.
#godwinslaw
Is that a new hipster slaw?
The labour party will suffer hard if they are seen to facilitate Tory hard Brexit Dazh.
Labour cannot facilitate it (other than whipping for a no deal) They can try and reason, get a different approach and so on but ultimately they have no really say in it if May won't budge (which she won't).
That does not mean they will not suffer, there are moments now where no clear strategy is hurting them. No direction is helping in the chaos.
The labour party will suffer hard if they are seen to facilitate Tory hard Brexit
The Labour Party will suffer whatever they do, that much is evident, and it’s why they have a policy seeking a middle way. Like I said, brexit denial is a strong and pervasive phenomenon. If we end up with no deal it will be because people on both sides have failed to see that there are two sides to this and neither is strong enough on their own to come out on top. If labour have failed in anything, it’s that they haven’t been able to persuade people to compromise on their entrenched positions, but blaming them for Brexit itself is pretty stupid.
@dazh they will suffer whatever, which is why they have picked the piss everyone off position.
They now have their hands on the brexit knife, their whipping will be subject to scrutiny in the event of no deal.
TBH if we end up with no dealnit will be because people are obsessed with delivering something regardless of the cost. That will haunt those involved and hopefully finish a lot.
I don't think anyone has explained why no deal is good so how anyone can stand behind it is... Wel let's just call it an interesting position.
We have local elections right now are Labour preaching the truth about brexit at those to the public?
Labour cannot facilitate it
THEY WHIPPED TO ENSURE MAY KEPT THE POWER TO ENABLE IT.
If May allows it to happen, the Labour leadership will have facilitated it. Glad half of Labour MPs ignored the whip, and voted in favour of May losing that power… the rest… well…
…would never carry so why would you expect labour to damage itself by whipping for it?
I took you through the basic maths pages ago. It stood a good chance… the Labour leadership killed it. Abstaining on a vote to remove power from May was a slap in the face for anyone who voted Labour to take power from May and her government.
brexit denial is a strong and pervasive phenomenon.
I must have imagined Tom Watson on 4 this morning restating Labour policy for a PV in absence of a GE WHICH THEY HAVE FAILED TO GET AND WOULD LOSE EVEN IF THEY DID.
I’m enjoying trying to figure out what is annoying the gammons more.
Is it Tusk as ‘that damned forriner’ is manipulating us by offering a year long extension when our Teresa is only needing six months?
Or is it Macron as ‘that damned forriner’ is telling us what to do by saying we can’t have any extension unless we prove we aren’t just can kicking?
But then I just think that the gammons hate most things anyway, and everything ‘forrin’, so the mere fact that they are pissed off is lovely in its own right.
GE WHICH THEY HAVE FAILED TO GET AND WOULD LOSE EVEN IF THEY DID.
What makes you think they can get a PV instead? Once again you blame them for not achieving something they don’t have the numbers for. More denial basically. When are you going to realise that the Labour Party are not the problem here? It’s becoming quite hysterical tbh. I sometimes wonder if you lot would be happy with a no deal as long as you get to blame the Labour Party for it.
Yes, we are all in denial @dazh, we get it. The second largest party has no power at all when there is a minority government with its party split and in freefall, with a leader who is hemorrhaging loyalty (and MPs).
I sometimes wonder if you lot would be happy with a no deal as long as you get to blame the Labour Party for it.
Do you really, though?
Given most of the last 1,638 pages, I would say that was an odd thing to conclude.
I sometimes wonder if you lot would be happy with a no deal as long as you get to blame the Labour Party for it.
In that case you really haven't been paying attention
when there is a minority government with its party split
And there is the fallacy. The tories may be split but they still vote en masse together*. They also are a minority, but they are consistently propped up by the DUP. When it comes to voting for brexit bills they are neither, they are a majority, and that's why labour have failed to do what you want them to.
*ignoring rebels on both sides which tend to cancel each other out.
And finally, the SNP’s emergency-parachute option, whereby failure to agree a deal by the April 12 deadline would result in Article 50 being revoked rather than no-deal Brexit, lost because Labour whipped their MPs to abstain on it, although a brave 121 of them rebelled and backed the proposal anyway.
If Labour had whipped to support the plan, it would have garnered another 123 votes and passed by a majority of 22 even despite 18 Labour MPs voting against it.
It's not a blue passport though.
It's not blue!!
Thinking past the current saga, if we do actually leave the EU, deal or no deal the net result will be the same, in time. We will more than likely end up in a customs union and have to accept free movement of people.
This is all pointless. We currently have the best deal... being in the EU
This is all pointless. We have the best deal already
Well shaft me sideways, who'd a thunk it.
Sorry I edited my post to be clear, in case anyone thought I meant TM's deal was the best!
I know I'm being obvious but you can only see it if you take a step back from the current hysteria...
I know I’m being obvious but you can only see it if you take a step back from the current hysteria…
Or if you never bought into the hysteria in the first place. It is blindingly obvious, but if you devalue common sense and ‘brains’......
Telegraph is great today - they've given up on any pretence of 'good of the country' and just talking about 'good of conservative party' 🙂 Important thing is to keep the party together. Tossers.
Same thing - Brexit is not good for the country and the tory party are not good for the country.
Opposite things … saving the Tory party by pushing through either a no deal Brexit, or the Withdrawal Agreement as it stands, would be at the expense of the country. Reject Brexit (we'll do it for them if the politicians ask us) and the Tory party will be wrecked for a decade, and the damage to the country minimised/reduced. Only a handful of Tories will put county before party though… so it's essential that just about all opposition MPs wake up and see what the real choice in front of them is.
What makes you think they can get a PV instead? Once again you blame them for not achieving something they don’t have the numbers for. More denial basically
Tom Watson seemed to be saying this was an aim. I'm not saying they have a better chance of getting this than a GE, only that they failed to win a no confidence vote, did not achieve their GE objective, so it's time to focus on the next objective. Quite a lot of MPs seem to think that too. I don't know why you would have a problem with it if you thought Brexit was damaging and you hope to limit that damage. Whatever happens there's going to be a whole load of grumpy people out there. Why inflict the economic damage on us and our partners and have grumpy people, when you could at least avoid the economic fall out of Brexit by giving the public the final say?
"We could have two referendums. As it happens, it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the negotiation is completed."
Jacob Rees-Mogg, 09:00 am - 24 Oct 2011
Are you ready for this?
Nothing that will suprise anyone who was reading this thread a few years ago…
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1114516654606700545?s=21
https://twitter.com/skynews/status/1114228568719003649?s=21
So my optimism that May actually meant she was seeking consensus was misplaced. Refusing to budge on any red lines bar perhaps a little bit of non binding fudge and totally refusing a second vote when pressed by labour.
So it really was more poli9ticing and an attempt to get labour to own the shitshow - and one thats failed completely. Labour can look reasonable and helpful, May just looks totally intransigent.
I don’t know why you would have a problem with it if you thought Brexit was damaging
Yawn. Once again, for the benefit of those who haven’t read my other posts, I don’t have a problem with a 2nd vote, and I do think brexit is damaging. Just because I think that though doesn’t mean I’ve blinded myself to those who disagree.
No, I've read all your posts, you seem hell bent on going for whatever version of Brexit that gets served up.
I know people talk about a no-deal as driving off the edge of a cliff but to be honest I think we're already off the edge and falling, it just depends which ledge we actually grab onto to save ourselves. No Deal is hitting the floor at the bottom.
The Maybot not actually listening to anyone and refusing to compromise?
Well, who’d have thunk it?
Summed up well by Matthew Paris...
And that’s what her own colleagues in her own party think of her. This was always a window dressing exercise to try and spread the blame
^^
Jonathan Pie has a very similar take on the above.
“I just feel we have under-estimated its complexity. We are unpicking 45 years of in-depth integration. This needed to be done with very great care, in a phased and graduated way. It needs a hard-headed understanding of realities”
I listened to it on Thursday and very rapidly came to the conclusion that he’s a ****ing deluded monied privileged idiot, towards the end he harks on about the hundreds of years when the uk ranked #1 in trade deals before joining the EU which he called a blip in British history.
Get back in your box, cox.
I've just listened to an interview with the totally-detatched-from-reality Pritti Patel
The general gist of it was along the same lines as Andrea Leadsom on Andrew Marr yesterday
Interesting to see Oborne breaking cover in his piece for Open Democracy.
https://twitter.com/obornetweets/status/1114955521541443585?s=21
Telegraph is great today – they’ve given up on any pretence of ‘good of the country’ and just talking about ‘good of conservative party’
+1
Utter failure from any of the stories I read to continue with the usual propaganda about how awesumz Brexit will be for every man, woman, unicorn, pixie, and child, and just every item was "Quick! Save the Tories! At All Costs!"
If any good comes of this, it will be a removal of the worst idiots present in the commons.
Oborne article is a fair bit of humble pie BUT
he still proceeds to trot out the same tired lies that got us in this mess
When she was home secretary, Theresa May kept promising to combat the relatively high levels of immigration. The reality was she was powerless to do anything about it.
which is untrue, May herself suspended exit checks & slashed border staffing, so even if we wnated to we couldnt have used full range of EU powers to rpatriate EU citizens who had been here for 3mths with no work etc (because a flexible labour forceis what industry wants)
I think that piece from Peter Oborne is fair - big question he poses is reform of the EU (a lot of remainers want this, I know I do) and how do we get this to happen ? the Eurocrats aren't seemingly interested in responding but all the major nations have antiEU agitators (wiilders, LePen, AfD, UKIP, Legia Nord etc) which need to be tackled because they aren't nice people.
...all the major nations have antiEU agitators (wiilders, LePen, AfD, UKIP, Legia Nord etc) which need to be tackled because they aren’t nice people.
There's much more going on than simply a popular resurgence of the nationalist far right...such organisations rely on funding and it's worth following the money to see where it leads.
It hasn't helped that the EU has been a convenient scapegoat for any unpopular legislation - for example that shining example of competence himself Chris Grayling explained that leaving the EU will make rail fares cheaper because of EU standards on platform height - again, completely untrue but it tapped into popular resentment against government policy which is to make stuff as expensive as possible.
US business leaders and tech organisations are unhappy at the fact that a single market comprising of half a billion consumers has been able to improve consumer protection and hold firms accountable for misuse of data. Russia has strategic motives for curtailing the power of the EU, especially after the interventions in Ukraine a decade or so ago.
Certain ultra-conservative figures in the middle east are unhappy that the EU is a bastion of social liberalism too.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/europe-s-far-right-enjoys-backing-russia-s-putin-n718926
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/nov/21/bannon-europe-plan-law-13-targeted-countries-trump
This should get a fair few of you excited. Can't see it myself, although it would be the perfect outcome. May unilaterally cancelling brexit and exploding the party which now hates her could be the legacy she so longs for. Given the abuse she is now suffering at the hands of her fellow tories I doubt anyone would blame her. It would be quite the turn of events if May is remembered for saving us from brexit and ridding us of the tories 🙂
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1115170767602364416
It's the hope that kills you.
Good to see some of the ERG fruitcakes demanding a second referendum sorry no confidence vote in the maybot.
So ‘Taking Back Control’ now amounts to the Maybot flying off to Berlin and Paris to plead with the Germans and French, with 5 days to go, to save us from ourselves?
It's all looking strong and stable to me....
so we appear to have gone beyond omnishambles and clusterflip. We need a word to describe a situation worse than either of those? Any suggestions?
@dissonance Just another beautiful bits of double stnadards where the plebs can't be given the chance of demostrating they have changed their mind after three years and some real informantion; whereas Tory MPs should definitely get that chance after 3 and a half months despite rules explicitly forbidding it!
I can't see TM revoking A50, it's not been part of the behaviours displayed so far and she's not one to suddenly go off-piste. I can see yet another request for another extension, which will probably be a long one to account for the impending GE that no-one wants.
Mark Francois is going to have a stroke on national telly isn't he
May knows that a long extension means that if Brexit happens it won't be with her as PM. She'll be doing anything and everything to avoid that. That might may not be enough though.
tj,
fractally fscked
(fscked at every possible scale and resolution)
I reckon 2nd ref is the best that can be hoped for, which could easily lead to remain.
Like it eat the pudding.
I think she's got to take whatever the EU offer her. Most likely a long extension, take part in EU elections but have limited say over how EU is actually governed while we're still working out whether we're in or out. So basically our MEPs will get paid to turn up and do nothing - Farage is already outraged as that means he'll have to do more than he's done for the last few yars.
Maybe May is such a crisis junky she's realised that she has mainlined all the good stuff and the only thing left that can get her bombed is the reaction she'll get from pressing the gammon detonating "revoke" button?
fractally fscked
Fsck recursion.
In order to understand Brexit, you must first understand Brexit.
That's a niche joke, but I appreciated it.
Another wasted day?
Another wasted day?
Wouldn't want to change the format of the previous 3 years...
Mark Francois is going to have a stroke on national telly isn’t he
We can but hope.
God if he had a stroke on tv, at least the police with have evidence for the indecency charge
It's been a long game if the aim is all the ERG to pop on the same day
I think if we're looking for a progressive adjectives from cluster**** then I think "Brexit" sums it up nicely....it should enter the lexicon as meaning "the mother of all f-ups"
Anyone watching Dispatches on C4? First couple of folk interviewed run businesses (farmer and care home owner) that rely on foreign workers but they voted for Brexit and now wondering how they'll cope. Jesus wept.