Forum menu
I see there was also a party called "democrats and veterans" very much the language of the American alt-right. Stinks to me of external influence in UK politics, nothing more than mouthpieces for bannons network. I hope the other parties point this fact out. These scum claim to be proud patriots but are really in thrall to foreign interests.
There really should be laws against it, but with so much of tory finances coming from non doms and similar dodgy sources, it is never going to be dealt with while they are in power.
The pro-Brexit Labour leadership (the word is used figuratively etc....) are playing us all for fools.
It worked last time when they were flirting with their deliberate ‘constructive ambiguity’, but to quote The Who: we won’t be fooled again
I’ve voted Labour all my life, but I can see that if they’d won the last election, we’d still be where we are now. I won’t vote for this shower. I don’t care if it’s a wasted vote. I’ll be voting for a pro EU Party because Brexit is the only game in town right now and absolutely everything else hinges on it
Magic Grandads policy, such as it is, is a fag paper off Mays, because he’s a rabid Brexiteer. Simple as that. He wants Brexit. Always has. Barry Gardiner gave it all away last week in one sentence he inadvertently blurted out...
“we are not a remain party”
No shit? We’d kind of noticed
Well your voters, membership and MP’s actually predominantly are. its just your leader and his cabal who aren’t
He’s as bad as May. Entirely complicit in this shambles. If we crash out with no deal I’m sure he’ll raise a glass of tomatoes juice. Job done!
If you look at any Labour pages on any social meedya you’ll see countless lifelong labour voters expressing the same sentiment in their disgust with Corbyn’s pro-Brexit, Tory-enabling stance.
Not that he cares. He’s got his No Deal Brexit in sight.
Any party that can articulate a pro-Eu stance will cause mayhem at GE. I wish the SNP were fielding candidates in Engerland. I’d vote for them Every time
I fear that they’re a bit “one-policy” over Brexit, but you make an excellent point about influencing main parties if they do well.
Yes, as per UKIP.
Any party that can articulate a pro-Eu stance will cause mayhem at GE. I wish the SNP were fielding candidates in Engerland. I’d vote for them Every time
Is that not the LD stance, right from the outset...?
Yep, I do hope the Lib Dems make a serious resurgence in the next election. I'd probably see Lab/Lib/SNP collation being the more sensible outcome from this
Yes, as per UKIP
Except somewhat more aligned with what I think is best for the country!
I'm in the massively fortunate position of being able to ride this out OK - but I'm really pissed off for those for whom it could make the difference between carrying on with a relatively difficult time of things, or complete financial ruin.
Not to mention that I have several friends who are EU nationals and still don't know what their future holds, despite contributing massively to this country for years (decades in at least two cases) and no longer feel particularly welcome here
It stinks.
Not that he cares. He’s got his No Deal Brexit in sight
Did you really just say that?
If you look at any Labour pages on any social meedya you’ll see countless lifelong labour voters expressing the same sentiment in their disgust with Corbyn’s pro-Brexit, Tory-enabling stance
And if you look on the same social media you will find every opinion going.
So , in order to save the ship from sinking we need a GE. Now .
Then we need a bootload of cash to set up our own political party of candidates called 'Revoke'
Revoke candidates only need to sing one song Vote for us, we will reverse out of this mess and bolster the economy and not give the odd billion pounds to the DUP
Even if revoke stood in say 500 seats it wouldn't cost much in real terms and they might win enough to get a majority in parliment
Then we can start sharpening the knives
EDIT : Ah crap. something not working with the forum software (again!)
Is that not the LD stance, right from the outset…?
You're wasting your breath, metaphorically speaking.
But yes.
But something something tuition fees.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-47768884
And not an April fool mash style article the gov whip lays into cabinet and others.
Also bbc 6 news seem to have got the memo that indicative vote were not all a failure
I can see the Lib Dems picking up a lot of the politically homeless now that the Labour leadership has stopped its will we/won't we 'creative ambiguity' nonsense and has last couple of weeks voiced where it really stands - resolutely pro-Brexit, with no intention whatsoever of doing anything to prevent it, ie: a second referendum
Mind you... it seems some people are as happy to believe in red unicorns, as blue ones, so maybe not?
Whichever way you look at it, if there was an election tomorrow, seeing as politically there's only one game in town, at least 48% of the population have no representation by the two main parties and are essentially politically disenfranchised and ignored.
Until the TIGgers get their act together, the Lib Dems it is then...
Liz Truss is presently n Radio 4 talking the usual fantastical unicorn-based nonsense, as if the last 3 years had never happened.
God help us!
Binners - its a real shame that you keep on with this canard. labour policy is not what you say it is.
Well its certainly not what they say it is. If they even know what that is
Its a combination of outright lies (2nd referendum - we'll have one, but not really) and unicorn-based fantasyland (we'll go back to the EU and they'll give us everything that they wouldn't give Theresa, because...erm... Jeremy)
If you're a remainer your choice between the two main parties is would you like your huge shit sandwich on brown or white bread?
just read that the government are going to have a big healing party ( no shit they actually wrote that) so we can all have a hug and make up our divided country
call me shallow but they're going to have to supply the booze
Binners – its a real shame that you keep on with this canard. labour policy is not what you say it is.
What is it?
It's whatever you want it to be. The secret is that you just have to BELIEVE!
Are you still ranting on about Corbyn? Just get over it and vote for the Independence group (better known as another Tory party whose only difference is that they are anti Brexit). Who cares what you vote.
Not the labour party, clearly...
So another round of indicative votes
Which will be different, Because MPs will just vote for something different this time????
Then a play off tomorrow between MV4 & whatever the winner is today?
Maybe a way forward will be found, but I'm not convinced, surely some sort of ranking system is needed to narrow things down?
With PR ukip would have picked up some seats .
What does the forum think the situation of the country would be now?
They would have had seats, but there would be more of other parties two, who would quite often have different opinions. lib Dems would in increase massively as there support is not clustered as required to win in the current situation but more a good solid level in large parts of the country.
labour policy is not what you say it is.
We're all waiting…
.
.
.
I'll help you…
Pro Brexit. No referendum if Labour gets the Brexit it wants.
(Obviously every Labour voter, member and councillor I know is dead against this policy… but, you know… Corbyn has made great strides in making the party more democratic, hasn't he).
Have you been reading sixth form social media pages binbins?
Or the words of Labour front benchers?
Anyway, at least Tom Watson is actively pushing for the policy his members want (see earlier post).
I’ll help you…
Kind of you to help out. now if you can source your claims that would be even more helpful.
Current policy is to whip for a second referendum, alongside other positions.
If it went to general election the policy hasnt been decided.
FFS
Have you had your fingers in your ears? Listen to Labour's shadow front bench and official spokespeople.
I linked to the words of one of them, direct from them, no editing, no dodgy MSM bias, just their words… what more do you want?
Labour’s preferred option is our proposed Brexit deal.
Red unicorns comrade?
And on voting intentions..
https://twitter.com/OwenWntr/status/1112367573902020610?s=19
So those LibDem votes might not be such a waste.
Listen to Labour’s shadow front bench and official spokespeople.
Cool lets listen to them.
Shadow front bench. Well its a tad confused. People are suggesting different things. Its worth noting some of those saying that no referendum were saying that before the vote last week where they were whipped for it. As such I would go with discounting them.
They are currently whipping for both their preferred approach and also a referendum.
The official spokespeople are currently saying it hasnt been decided for an election.
Well, that's that cleared up then. Thanks. Labour Party spokespeople are not to be trusted, therefore those saying they can not be trusted are, er… come on, help me here… this is your line of thought, not mine…
So those LibDem votes might not be such a waste.
Depends what constituency you live in. Tactical voting will be key if the Tories are dumb enough to call another election.
Key variable for me would be the impact of UKIP 'betrayal' voting in Labour vs Tory marginals, given that Labour MPs are more likely to be anti hard Brexit.
this is your line of thought, not mine…
No its not. Stop making shit up.
Which Labour spokespeople and front benchers should we be listening to then @dissonance?
Tom Watson seems to be on the ball about what Labour policy "should" be. Should I just ignore all the others telling us that Labour policy "is" to get a Labour Brexit without a referendum?
given that the libdems are going to get a new leader, they need to crack on with this in a very short space of time (although from what I remember of LD party rules, it's a right load of bureaucratic mess) and put a manifesto together. If they have a very clear statement on remain and how political reform looks like they could be a kingmaker for the next government and actually get those things - those numbers look like LD or whoever propping up a minority govt.
ChangeUK probably would do the same, be interesting to see how far apart their manifestos are
Labour policy is very clear and as stated above by scotroutes. It might not be what you want but its clear, plausible and possible
trouble with social media is much of it is an echo chamber so you only hear what other folk of similar views to you say thus reinforcing bias
Labours problem is the party is as split as the tories. 30 mps voted against a second referendum despite being whipped to vote for it.
just read that the government are going to have a big healing party ( no shit they actually wrote that) so we can all have a hug and make up our divided country
call me shallow but they’re going to have to supply the booze
It's getting very difficult to tell but I think that's an April fools.
clear, plausible and possible
We don't know that's the case as we've not heard which colour of unicorns the EU prefers or even if they would allow a delay required for (a) a GE and then (b) negotiations with a Labour government.
It might not be what you want but its clear, plausible and possible
It is none of those things. Mostly it isn't possible. Corbyns renegotiated/red unicorns Brexit proposals are as fantastical as anything Boris Johnson promised during the referendum campaign (as we've been over many, many times), and would land us in exactly the same place as we are now, when Brussels says 'Non!' after about 2 minutes.
The whole will we/won't we? 2nd referendum thing is just totally dishonest and disingenuous as Jezza is clearly adamant that under no circumstances are the public getting another crack at this. He wants Brexit but doesn't want his fingerprints on it
Hence the main policy being to sit back and let them get on with it, while occasionally popping up to call for a general election. He's not even bothered to do that lately. It is a busy time of year on the allotment though, so understandable
as Jezza is clearly adamant that under no circumstances are the public getting another crack at this.
Odd I could have sworn Labour is whipping for second referendum amendments.
Must be some confusion.
Jezza is clearly adamant that under no circumstances are the public getting another crack at this.
Its a weird world where a view that is expressed frequently is seen to be the opposite.
Hate Corbyn by all means. Stop inventing nonsense about him
Its what the referendum question is though. That keeps changing too. At the moment the proposed option is on Mays deal or Jezza's fantasy red unicorn deal. Remain is not an option.
We're being played for fools again
So we are clear; Is Labour policy a GE, then their Brexit with no Referendum?
Or is it a for a Referendum - and with what options?
Remain is not an option.
What special source are you getting your info from?
So we are clear
GE was preferred option although think that has been abandoned for now.
Currently it is whipping for both soft brexit options as well as a second referendum.
https://www.cer.eu/insights/cost-brexit-june-2018
Ooh look, astonishingly, we don't have a spare £350 million a week. It's actually costing us £500 million a week. If only there had been some experts to predict these things rather than a Michael Gove.
Remain is not an option.
I honestly believe that if we can faff around long enough it will become an option. It's already getting that way now. The nutters will become more marginalised and the remainers will start to look more and more reasonable (except binners 😉 )
GE was preferred option although think that has been abandoned for now.
Currently it is whipping for both soft brexit options as well as a second referendum.
Hence why indicative voting is a good idea, it allows us to explore the options without doing it in a knock out format.
Currently it is whipping for both soft brexit options as well as a second referendum
But the latter only if we don't get Labour's preferred Brexit - the one we don't know will be deliverable and which could only take place after another round of negotiations?
Currently it is whipping for both soft brexit options as well as a second referendum.
Whipping was not for a soft Brexit, it was for an undefined Customs Union, but not for Single Market, or EEA, or The Customs Union or anything like that. And, referendum proposal is only for "this parliament"… if we get a general election before we Leave, Labour policy is that their Brexit plans WILL NOT be subject to a referendum. Watson is at the front of trying to get that last bit changed, and the barrage of abuse that the Corbyn faithful are giving him on social media is a depressing eye opener.
suppose they have to debate a50
even though everyone has said revoking it is not an option
waste of time?
But the latter only if we don’t get Labour’s preferred Brexit
It would depend on which amendments get passed but currently they are supporting both.
Labour policy is that their Brexit plans WILL NOT be subject to a referendum
The spokesbod position yesterday was that it hadnt been decided.
Your selective reading and listening is quite remarkable.
I dont think we can pretend that Labour are much less divided than the Tories, at least if you listen to their media interviews
Barry Gardiner & Kier Starmer seem to contradict each other at every opportunity
Odd I could have sworn Labour is whipping for second referendum amendments.
Must be some confusion.
They're trying to play both sides, there's a lot of Leave supporting Labour voters, the ones on the left of the Party.
He will always go for a GE if he can, why not, the Tories are in tatters and last week (and last week only) Labour appeared to be in the lead on the polls.
I really doubt he'll get it though, I mean why would the Tories do that?
Offering the 'Labour' deal has no downsides, it shows Leavers on the left that they're trying to achieve Brexit, but it's seems very unlikely to happen, it won't have the backing in the house and even based on last weeks polls a GE would likely end in a Coalition (with who, who knows - Sinn Fein?)
Not even "we know what's best, not the public" Corbyn can ignore 2m in London, 6m online votes and the polls - so Ref2 appeals to Remainers.
It will likely emerge as the least worst option with IV2 today.
It would be interesting to know what form Corbyn would like though, because he's not been clear (if anyone thinks he has, please provide a source from him, not Tom Watson). Labour Deal v Tory Deal, Deal v No Deal or heaven forbid - Remain v Deal.
Your selective reading and listening is quite remarkable.
Whereas your ability to confuse what specific MPs say with actual policy is even more impressive.
I dont think we can pretend that Labour are much less divided than the Tories
Yup. Whilst no real organised equivalent to the ERG there are the obvious divisions. Why its never been as easy as some have tried claiming for the Labour party to go hard one way or the other.
Yup. Whilst no real organised equivalent to the ERG there are the obvious divisions. Why its never been as easy as some have tried claiming for the Labour party to go hard one way or the othe
I would suggest that Momentum would be the closest equivalent of a party within a party.
Whereas your ability to confuse what specific MPs say with actual policy is even more impressive.
Again… which Labour spokespeople and front benchers should I ignore when they are stating what the Labour position is? I'm not talking about "specific MPs" stating their own position as to what policy "should be", I'm taking about those who are on the front bench, or appointed as spokespeople, saying what Labour policy "is".
Labour spokespeople and front benchers should I ignore when they are stating what the Labour position is?
Go with the spokesperson or Corbyn. Now which spokesperson do you think is stating clearly, as of today, that for a GE a second referendum is off the table?
Now which spokesperson do you think is stating clearly, as of today, that for a GE a second referendum is off the table?
Do I have to google this or are you going to tell us all?
If there is a general election Labour, I think, are in for a bit of a shock when they call upon the party faithful. My neighbours have been members for over 40 years and have always helped deliver leaflets and knock on doors.
Not this time.
They are remainers and fairly left of centre but just couldn't / wouldn't defend Corbyn on the doorstep. We have a great local MP but its very hard to separate the two. It's all getting very 'the wrong lizard'.
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/162557-it-comes-from-a-very-ancient-democracy-you-see-you
SpokEUMsperASon
Well, if we're ignoring things said only yesterday as old news that should be ignored… then you have me stumped @dissonance. And if only Corbyn and his non-elected inner team can state what Labour policy "is", and all front benchers should be ignored when they say what it "is", then fair enough.
If you are a member, be sure to vocalise your support for Tom Watson's approach… he could win people back to voting Labour (including me) if he succeeds.
This democratisation of the Labour Party and giving a voice back to the membership has been a roaring success, hasn't it?
Whats our Brexit policy today then?
We don't know... somebody best go and ask Seamus
ask Seamus
You mean 'ask Len'.
I thought I would make a short film to summarise the past 3 years of UK politics. I hope you think I have captured the finer nuances of the situation..
This democratisation of the Labour Party and giving a voice back to the membership has been a roaring success, hasn’t it?
Yes it has, best policies they have had for a long time.
And, on the topic of Brexit? Members in control of policy there?
Anyway, Labour not whipping for a "Soft Brexit" option (Norway style) today because, "Freedom of movement must end". What do members think…?
We can come back to this "no referendum on a Labour Brexit" mess if/when a general election is called. Pretty irrelevant 'till then. We can probably agree on that.
I would suggest that Momentum would be the closest equivalent of a party within a party.
Nope.
ERG are actually are public funded and sit within the Conservative party, and are MPs.
I don't think Momentum is made up of MPs.
when Gemma Collins starts espousing opinion on brexit is in the paper...it might be time to abandon ship sorry folks
I dont think we can pretend that Labour are much less divided than the Tories
Really - take a look at this again …
https://twitter.com/MShepheard/status/1112671939615698944
Looks to me that the Tories are much more divided.
just to clarify - labour party policy as stated from their conference (which wanted a full-on referendum but weren't given the option to vote for this without a gen election bundled in) is for a general election and if it can't get that, a 2nd ref.
when this put to the HoC there was no chance of getting a gen election, they had a no-confidence motion fail - so the whips order labour to abstain against the policy they said they would be pushing for.
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-second-referendum/
just proves my point that we need electoral reform because there's disconnection between party execs and party members (red and blue) as well as the disconnection between voters and parties.
A note of caution: Conservative party members are STRONGLY in favour of a no deal exit, and other things that most Tory MPs are against. The population as a whole has to be considered by politicians when setting policies, not just members. It's never simple, is it…
I'd agree though (if you are saying this) that it's time for more voices in parliament, in the form of fewer MPs for the main two parties… but LOTS has to change to support that. The two overly broad coalitions of the two big parties isn't working.
This democratisation of the Labour Party and giving a voice back to the membership has been a roaring success, hasn’t it?
Are you arguing for less democracy in the labour party? That would seem to be a very strange position for someone who claims to be a slightly left of centre social democrat.
He's arguing that the gap between the rhetoric and reality suggests a lack of (much lauded) integrity at the top.
Are you arguing for less democracy in the labour party?
Not at all. I'm advocating they just remove the little asterix at the end of every policy that says in 5 pt type at the bottom of the page *unless Jeremy disagrees with it
“Freedom of movement must end”.
When they mean;
Dogbone's freedom of movement must end. So yeah **** you.
Well, if we’re ignoring things said only yesterday as old news that should be ignored
From whom? Lets see the exact quote from the spokesbod. since the only one I can see is them being, deliberately, vague on it. Which whilst admittedly unhelpful doesnt support your claim.
and yes you should treat what individual MPs say as being their own opinion unless they are clear it is otherwise. Otherwise you would be getting rather confused when listening to Kate Hoey for example.
so the whips order labour to abstain against the policy they said they would be pushing for.
They abstained from that since, along with peoples vote lobby group and others, they thought it was the wrong time.
They have whipped for it last week when it was seen as the right time and will, almost certainly, whip for it again.
They are currently whipping for any brexit deal, including their own, should be voted on.
Well, if we’re ignoring things said only yesterday as old news that should be ignored
Its worse than that. Far worse. Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secratary, has just been on the World at One. After much questioning about what Labour were actually going to table or whip to support this afternoon, she said that as she'd not been in touch with the leaders office for an hour or so, she didn't actually have a clue. And what they suggested this morning might well have all changed by now
They are literally making it up, scrawled on the back of a fag packet, as they go along.
No rush though, eh? Plenty of time....
In other news, the Germans pointing out the bleedin' obvious...
UK 'silver spoon' cabinet will escape Brexit fallout, says German minister
UK politicians “born with silver spoons in their mouths, who went to private schools and elite universities” were responsible for the current impasse in parliament, but were unlikely to suffer the direct consequences of their actions, he said.
Just a pity 52% of the electorate couldn't see what was staring them in the face 2 years ago