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Kerley, you mean the Labour voters who are mostly remainers? How does the maths of pissing off the majority to appease a minority stack up?
Labour will be decimated by remain voters leaving them.
yep.
Oppose anything that makes the elite even richer and the workers worse off regardless if what the policy is called.
Agreed.
Or, at the very least, allow the workers to vote on any deal proposed.
Exactly, it has been publicised for the past 2 years, that even in Labour seats that voted leave, the majority of labour voters were for remain. By still supporting leave, labour are ignoring the majority of their supporters to chase either ill informed or probably more likely racist voters who are unlikely to vote for any kind of progressive government anyway.
They have been blatantly barking up the wrong tree, but like May, are so entrenched in their stupidity they are wilfully ignoring the bloody obvious.
And the most infuriating thing is that both May and Corbyn, have acknowledged that the result was a protest against austerity and inequality, and then rather than deal with that they both just plow ahead supporting a populist agenda that will make those issues worse.
But won't you think of the poor downtrodden noble working class heroes who voted leave MSP, you elitist remainer. 😀
Remainers are so horrible, this has been made clear by the violent angry remain protest - whilst the pro brexit demonstration was a peaceful day all about campaigning for wholesome socialist values and definitely not because they are all racists like the nasty hurtful remainers say.
And the most infuriating thing is that both May and Corbyn, have acknowledged that the result was a protest against austerity and inequality, and then rather than deal with that they both just plow ahead supporting a populist agenda that will make those issues worse.
On the flip side the leave vote and result , the subsequent Brexit parliamentary paralysis and May's ill fated GE have meant that the Tories have been unable to pursue the agenda begun under Cameron/Osborne in 2010 and mitigated by Clegg(if you believe him).If there'd been no Brexit where do you think Cameron/Osborne's austerity would be now, untrammelled?
are so entrenched in their stupidity they are wilfully ignoring the bloody obvious.
ermm. Have you actually bothered to look at the recent Labour whips?
That the recent rebellions have been by those wanting brexit? Which, incidentally, would tend to indicate its a tad more complicated than your simplistic viewpoint.
It's all selfish party politics though.
The sooner the actual problem is addressed, the sooner progress might happen.
But good luck with with that, both Conservatives and Labour are sacks of fighting Rats who have forgotten what thier job actually is, which is to act in the best interest of the country.
bothy parties are sacks of fighting Rats
Ours was actually a really enjoyable,chilled experience 🙂
ermm. Have you actually bothered to look at the recent Labour whips?
That the recent rebellions have been by those wanting brexit? Which, incidentally, would tend to indicate its a tad more complicated than your simplistic viewpoint.
lol
Sorry, I should have specified 'political paties' 😉
It’s all selfish party politics though.
Again thats a oversimplification. Say that you really believe in your party ideology then you will see a strong party being a strong country.
Whilst brexit will do a lot of damage to the country (depending on the flavour)you may consider the risk that if your party stopped it and got wiped out due to it that the damage caused to the country by having the other party having a massive majority and ability to do what it wants potentially far worse.
Thats leaving aside those putting personal gain above both country and party.
Kerley, you mean the Labour voters who are mostly remainers? How does the maths of pissing off the majority to appease a minority stack up?
Because thanks to FPTP losing the minority is all it takes to lose an election and not be in government. That principle is exactly why we are in this mess.
Kerley, you mean the Labour voters who are mostly remainers? How does the maths of pissing off the majority to appease a minority stack up?
You need to do the maths and then you will see. How marginal are the Labour leave seats, could they switch to Tory just to leave and on the flip side how marginal are the remain Labour seats and could they switch to Lib Den or the dodgy independent group.
I will still vote Labour over any other party as there are much more important things to me than a Brexit that will most likely never happen and the only party that comes close to having policies that provide those important things (and more importantly could even win) is Labour
I will still vote Labour over any other party as there are much more important things to me than a Brexit that will most likely never happen and the only party that comes close to having policies that provide those important things (and more importantly could even win) is Labour
This. Corbyn IMO should have led a proper pro remain stance and convince the poor and disaffected that their woes are not the fault of the EU. They may lose some voters to the Tories but will brinng back many remainers disillusioned with them as a party.
Corbyn is party before pragmatism though, just like the Conservatives.. He's no leader, and if there was to be a general election and he won, he'd be in the same dire straits as the Conservatives are right now.
The only reason labour haven't collapsed like this
You need to do the maths and then you will see. How marginal are the Labour leave seats, could they switch to Tory just to leave and on the flip side how marginal are the remain Labour seats and could they switch to Lib Den or the dodgy independent group.
And here lies the problem. We are so scared of coalition government and learning how to make one work we make stupid choices.
For any marginal seat it's a complex calc over remainers who will vote away to avoid the blah blah endorse out entire manifesto and some who genuinely can't see how Corbyn can get out of this. Some leavers will go a bit tory or Ukip but most will just tick the red box again.
If you want to fight this one on leave/remain you have to be solid on it.
I thought the image of the Leave march confirmed that what we are up against is not just Brexit per se but the re-emergence of the far right into the mainstream of British politics. That march was as close to a 1970's NF meeting as you can get in the 21st century. Given that, there is no way Labour should be pandering to these people. There is more to this than Brexit & at the moment Corbyn is positioning himself as a friend to bigotry & intolerance. There is no way he should be doing that even if he thinks it will make his party more popular (& I don't even think it will). Fight for what is right, not for political gain.
Personally my tendencies veer towards LibDem but my constituency is currently Labour although it did go Tory briefly. Fortunately my MP is a committed remained although seemingly hamstrung by the party whip.
I still fail to understand how either party seems not to recognise the enormous harm that the last near 3 years has done economically and politically to the UK.
That gif ^^
Has anyone sent it to Number 10 yet?
at the moment Corbyn is positioning himself as a friend to bigotry & intolerance
FFS don't be so bloody stupid. This developing narrative that not calling for brexit to be cancelled is somehow de facto support for Tommy Robinson and his ilk is utterly ridiculous. Not only that, it's also completely counter-productive as you need to get these people to change their minds to achieve what you want.
Fortunately my MP is a committed remained although seemingly hamstrung by the party whip.
How exactly were they hamstrung?
FFS. Pro-Brexit (but Brexit is bad) apologists.
Anyway, it's fine if you want whatever the Withdrawal Agreement ends up as. It's fine if Corbyn wants it as well. We should all get a say though.
We should all get a say though
While I agree it's probably the best way to break the deadlock we've had a say twice now and managed to **** it up. Do you have faith we'll get it right next time?
If, by "right" you mean what I want and believe is best for the country, then no, I don't have complete faith.
But I do firmly believe that the people who voted for this bit of a mess should now be asked if they really think this is what they want.
Indeed. Very likely that the result of another referendum would be to accept this mess and carry on. That should be "our" choice though. Currently, we are being told this has to happen, in a certain manner, because "we" choose it, and that is… well… a "bit" disingenuous.
Haha! A "bit"?!!!! 😅
There will be no election, Torries were stung last time, fixed term parliament act is a powerful tool for sitting government.
That said the erg are so mental, who knows what they might do if they don't get their way!
Not only that, it’s also completely counter-productive as you need to get these people to change their minds to achieve what you want.
They won't be changing their mind, why should they ? every paper is screaming 'brexit betrayal' today
It was the same with Toby young etc on newsnight, Brexit being a disaster; s the fault of remainers.
No one will accept responsibility for this mess.
And we've still got a decade(s) of ever more divisive negotiations to go....
You need to do the maths and then you will see. How marginal are the Labour leave seats, could they switch to Tory just to leave and on the flip side how marginal are the remain Labour seats and could they switch to Lib Den or the dodgy independent group.
But they majority of labour voters in marginal labour seats are remain voters. So they are just as likely, if not more likely to lose the seat by doing that.
I think Corbyn has just realised that remain voters are happy to walk out on the labour party over this just as much as brexiteers are and is now panicking at Labours haemorrhaging ratings and is now whipping for policies that have more favour with remain.
It's all too little too late.
"The people voted for this."
We have heard this line used by people in the same party espousing entirely opposite viewpoints as regards the current withdrawal Agreement, and as regards a No Deal exit… and sometimes the same politician has used that argument to defend both voting for and against the current WA within a matter of days! People are using the last referendum to push their own agendas that are miles from what was "suggested" back in 2016, in a "not entirely" consistent manner. That alone should be enough for any politician that makes claims about "democracy" and "integrity" to come around to the idea of putting any manner of leaving, whether it is one proposed by their opponents or by themselves, to the people.
In addition, anyone suggesting that the plans of "others" need public approval but "our" plans do not, can't be trusted. They will find people both in favour of Brexit, and against it, will be turned away by that attitude.
A bit gutted at the no confidence vote in Dominic Grieve by his constituency association. Under the leadership of the Maybot, he is the nearest the Tories have to a humanoid form.
I did like a commentators description the other day of May as 'LINO'. On the surface standing for Leader In Name Only, but also hard to nail down but easy to walk over.
But they majority of labour voters in marginal labour seats are remain voters. So they are just as likely, if not more likely to lose the seat by doing that.
Are they, how do you know? Who will they be voting for in place of Labour who is remain. Lib Dems will have a candidate, Independence group probably won't.
I still can't see how Corbyn would be in a better position now if he had gone full remain, against the will of the people, traitor, anti democracy etc,. You do see the media and the impact of it don't you?
Saying that, if I was Labour leader I would have gone full remain and spun Leave as a Tory fantasy but it would be very risky and I may have screwed it all up.
I'm liking this new *shock* poll that puts Labour 5pts ahead.(delta poll)
Let's see what the newspapers, Binners and Rachel Riley drag up this time.
Are they, how do you know? Who will they be voting for in place of Labour who is remain. Lib Dems will have a candidate, Independence group probably won’t
There's too much - "we know exactly the outcome of that" in this thread.
I would say we are very much uncharted waters for pretty much everything.
Economy is on a precipice, and has been for a while but stills seems to avoid my expectations of a collapse.
I think Labour's GE policy would be - negotiate a different deal with customs unions etc and test in a 2nd referendum against remain.
It would lose some leave and remain voters - but the Tories will be losing voters too. The potential voter movements are so multi dimensional I think it's a difficult game for even the pollsters to claim any sort of accuracy of prediction
It still baffles me that the common veiw is that there are only 2 choices in a general election. Hopefully the last few weeks and growing awareness of bigger issues being faced by society will help to change that. It is time for a change in perspective
https://www.greenparty.org.uk/political-programme.html
Because with a first past the post system you are lucky to get the opportunity to vote for more than one party that has a realistic prospect of winning your constituency
Although I can see there being a bit of a resurgence for LDs and minor parties getting the odd seat. But as I said above, predictions are a bit of a mugs game
With PR ukip would have picked up some seats .
What does the forum think the situation of the country would be now?
all doom and gloom in the right wing sundies
If UKIP had mps then those mps would have to abide by parliamentary standards and UKIP policies and actions would be subject to closer scrutiny. Also, the present assumption is that many /some UKIP votes are protest votes. With pr there is no need for protest votes so apparent support for UKIP could actually reduce.
Also the big two parties are funded far more than any others, they get to dictate the narrative because of that. If both those parties run on a brexit ticket (even despite their membership views) then it is lie to pretend that the electorate has been given a choice on brexit.
The choice is distorted massively by campaign funding and supposed free choice becomes nothing but an illusionist's card trick .
Theoretically I'd love to vote Green but too many of their policies are not based on scientific evidence and they are against many of the necessary ideas and processes that will likely be required to get humanity through the next few years. Their hearts are in the right place but they still act like a one trick campaign group trying to appeal to a converted minority rather than a realistic party of government trying to get national support for a realistic program.
First time revoke & 2nd ref have led in polls, even if it is the mall
https://twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1112203648623407104?s=19
Depends what you mean by a hard border. Switzerland isn’t in the CU
From a couple of pages back, Switzerland is signatory to Schengen (2005 referendum won by 10%).
Here's one for wider consideration: I'm currently unrepresented, after my long-serving MP died a few weeks ago. The by-election is this week. The constituency has AFAICT always been Labour apart from a single term with a Tory decades ago. I'm a natural Labour supporter, but like many here have been dismayed by JC's lack of opposition to the current shower. The new labour candidate is anti-brexit.
Last time round, I voted Labour inspite of their policy to 'respect the referendum' as the most important thing was to keep the Tories out. This time, I can't see one MP either way making a difference in Westminster, so I'm pondering risking letting the Tory in by voting LD or Plaid Cymru, while Emailing the Labour candidate and the Party to explain why.
What does the panel think?
Would you prefer an anti Brexit labour MP to a Tory? If so, you know what to do, unless the pleasure of a bit of self indulgence outweighs that.
Not great i know, but hey...
Nice piece by Margaret Beckett in the Guardian today.
I thought her speech last week was very good. She was a leaver and now a remainer.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/31/margaret-beckett-brexit-public-vote-dangerous-theresa-may
Re above PhilO
Just vote Labour. Sometimes you have to compromise for the greater good - Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori and all that. Chin up.
Phil - If I was in your constituency (I'm actually in a neighbouring one) I'd be trying ascertain how likely it is that the new lab candidate would follow through when it comes to actions/votes etc. If I didn't think they were likely to really represent me, I think your proposals are sound...
6 million signatures.
PhilO don’t vote for Matthew Evans, he is pretty far right and hasn’t an original idea in his head.
So hands up everyone that still thinks Corbyn's Labour is unelectable?
Theoretically I’d love to vote Green but too many of their policies are not based on scientific evidence
But the people are sick of experts apparently. So on that basis the Greens should be a shoe in.
Oh and about UKIP and PR. Yes they would pick up seats but they would be swamped by the seats picked up by "moderates".
What does the panel think?
You have noticed that Labour have been whipping for second referendum and soft brexit havent you?
For the more drastic options eg revocation its gone for no comment as opposed to whipping against.
I would welcome UKiP getting some MP’s it would hilight that they have absolutely nothing in their locker, would expose them as the intellectual pygmies they are. It wouldn’t be like being an MEP, they would be humiliated.
Labour were still trailing behind the conservatives only a few days ago, wait until the next lot of YouGov data before rejoicing.
You know what, this whole mess is due to dickheads in the Conservative Party. Nine years of austerity, the UKIP entryism that is responsible for the deselections of One Nation Conservative MPs and the sneering bullshit from a few gobby charlatans have brought me to the conclusion that I'm perfectly happy to see the bastards lose as many seats as possible and to be consigned to the electoral doldrums for a generation.
Labour were still trailing behind the conservatives only a few days ago, wait until the next lot of YouGov data before rejoicing.
I'll just wait until the actual election thanks - when there are campaigns, policies fresh in the mind of voters etc,. and people are not solely going on the right wing presses view of events.
Johnathan Pie Brexit: What's the **** is going on? https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=-IL2XwSkFJQ
In UK elections in safe seats it doesn't matter how you vote. In marginal seats you have to vote for the party most likely to beat the party you hate most. So in the above example you have to hold your nose and vote labour
You have noticed that Labour have been whipping for second referendum
I've noticed they have said that if they get to form a government, they will push through Brexit and not hold a referendum.
and soft brexit havent you?
Well, the Single Market options were heavily defeated. I'd have to check, but I presume that meant Labour didn't whip for that at all. I do know they've whipped against it several times in the past few years. They are also still saying that FoM for workers has to stop, so Soft Brexit is not their agenda at all.
In UK elections in safe seats it doesn’t matter how you vote.
In safe seats, it's hard to change your MP. True.
As for voting in a way that does not get you the MP you want more generally … do you think that the time when UKIP was getting a big share of the vote, and splitting the vote in hundreds of constituencies, that still changed the course of this country, despite not electing MPs to parliament…? Voter share, and eroding the votes for MPs of the major parties, can shift the policy agenda of those parties drastically. If we have an election before we leave the EU, every vote for a party promising to deliver Brexit will help deliver Brexit. The last three years have shown us that.
In many seats that needs balancing against the issue that if you have a good MP, who also happens to not be toeing the party line on Brexit… we need them in Parliament… don't try and unseat them to change the mind of their party's leadership… that will be counter productive.
Not simple. Unfortunately.
To further confuse things… the chance of whoever you vote for changing party after the next election could well be bigger than ever before.
So not simple.
anti brexit candidate good, but it's a toughy when after the last election we're repeatedly told that 80% of voters voted for parties that pledged to respect the referendum.
No need to apologise though... Fined but 'Remain spent more' so that's ok then. Rules are for losers anyway.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47766407
Theoretically I’d love to vote Green but too many of their policies are not based on scientific evidence and they are against many of the necessary ideas and processes that will likely be required to get humanity through the next few years. Their hearts are in the right place but they still act like a one trick campaign group trying to appeal to a converted minority rather than a realistic party of government
Does that really matter. It's is extremely unlikely that there will be enough of a swing in voting for them to form a government of any kind so they don't need to be totally realistic. Ideas and principles are ok for now. Personally I vote for them because I feel it actually makes my vote count more. A few percent voting green makes the other parties consider green issues to minimise losing votes. Look how fear of losing voters to ukip has managed to steer the Tories.
No need to apologise though… Fined but ‘Remain spent more’ so that’s ok then. Rules are for losers anyway.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47766407/a >
"Our biggest problem was that we destroyed all our data and therefore some of the evidential basis people were asking for."
Hmmm.........
Don't you just hate it when you destroy the only thing that proved you did nothing at all wrong. I assume it was on the same bit of paper that implicated them in something far worse.
PhilO
Member
Here’s one for wider consideration: I’m currently unrepresented, after my long-serving MP died a few weeks ago. The by-election is this week. The constituency has AFAICT always been Labour apart from a single term with a Tory decades ago. I’m a natural Labour supporter, but like many here have been dismayed by JC’s lack of opposition to the current shower. The new labour candidate is anti-brexit.Last time round, I voted Labour inspite of their policy to ‘respect the referendum’ as the most important thing was to keep the Tories out. This time, I can’t see one MP either way making a difference in Westminster, so I’m pondering risking letting the Tory in by voting LD or Plaid Cymru, while Emailing the Labour candidate and the Party to explain why.
What does the panel think?
Keep the tories out.
Shackleton
Theoretically I’d love to vote Green but too many of their policies are not based on scientific evidence and they are against many of the necessary ideas and processes that will likely be required to get humanity through the next few years. Their hearts are in the right place but they still act like a one trick campaign group trying to appeal to a converted minority rather than a realistic party of government trying to get national support for a realistic program.
****
You believe that Tory or Labour policies are based on unbiased independent scientific studies and they are going to get humanity through the next few years?
I would like to know what these are.
Con/lab are not one trick ponys?
They sell an impossible dream of wealth and peace to a desperate majority while really delivering economic slavery built on a long term unsustainable model of continual growth.
Their programs realistic? No, they are absurd.
Keep the tories out
'80% of voters voted for a party that pledged to redirect the referendum result'
It'll be a two-party system as long as folk think they should only vote for one of the two parties. Taking the example of the SNP, it took years/decades before they became a realistic vote-winner in many seats. To get there, many folk voted for them knowing they'd lose but might put in a decent showing. That attracted more voters and eventually a tipping point is reached. We often castigate governments for not being able to past the next election but voters need to do likewise.
Labour still at it. Who can you trust?
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1112406048122589186?s=21
Something from Tom Watson to balance that out…
I think Labour should embrace European elections just as we should welcome a General Election that might get rid of this broken government. If we go into either contest with a positive policy on Brexit and say any final deal must be put back to the people, I am confident Labour can win.
Make that Labour policy instead. Win people back. Including me.
From here:
https://www.tom-watson.com/how_we_get_the_healing_done
80% of voters voted for a party that pledged to redirect the referendum result’
Typo or not?
Must admit after this line being trotted out endlessly by hard brexiters makes me very uneasy about voting Labour again, even if I think/hope they might try and end the whole farce
Presumably PhilO lives in Newport West. I was reading about this by-election today. According to the Guardian, there is a pro-remain EU party campaigning hard and we'll (apparently well funded) and winning some people over. It would be fascinating if they emulated UKIP and took enough vote share to influence main party policy. Certainly could be an interesting result.
Molgrips - that will probably be the Renew party - candidate is a friend of mine, and is very passionate and extremely well educated and informed.
I fear that they're a bit "one-policy" over Brexit, but you make an excellent point about influencing main parties if they do well. I wish I'd suggested her when I replied above, now!