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Dunno why I waste 45mins of my life every week since the referendum vote in 2016 but I continue to watch question time in the vain hope that a brexiter will produce a legitimate reason as to why it makes moral and financial sense to leave, not heard a genuine and well thought out coherent argument for leaving yet therefore I think it’s only fair to continue to hold my opinion of leave voters.
Dunno why I waste 45mins of my life every week since the referendum vote in 2016 but I continue to watch question time in the vain hope that a brexiter will produce a legitimate reason as to why it makes moral and financial sense to leave,
Question time ( and the parallel of Q&A in Oz) is simply a place for politicians to embarrass themselves and cock up.
People said this in 2016
“That’s not what people voted for” was the response.
Yes I can see that. But you would have a direction.
Just needs the correct communication.
It also solves more problems than it creates.
Watching Newsnight still, Brexiter be Brexiters.... Keep claiming it can be simple keep claiming it's the fault of the politicians for getting in the way of Brexit. Who would have thought a former editior of the Sun would be speaking the real full truth on the issue.
(Did I get that right - NI doesn't count as remain even voting more for for remain as the rest of the UK didn't?)
I still have not heard of anyone from leave giving us a decent idea what they can deliver
How to deliver remain? Give brexiters as much air time as possible to contradict each other.
It would just need to be sold correctly.
I'm laughing so hard it hurts.
Varoufakis just offered the best compromise.
Leave
No he didn't, then.
Why not, "remain with a CU/SM for an indefinite amount of time and then figure out what to do next?"
There is no "compromise" to be had from any form of leaving other than as a box-ticking exercise, simply because almost no-one on either side wants that. You don't want to piss off either 50% or the other 50% so by way of compromise you'll piss off 100%?
The compromise, as I said the day after the referendum, is to not blindly throw the country under a bus. Rather it's to remain in the EU but find out why people wanted to leave and then seriously address those concerns. The "out means out" brigade are very loud indeed but they are a minority within a minority.
If any of our Brexit lurkers are left I'd suggest watching newsnight there, apart form the the potty mputh clip 😉 the brexiters really do a lot to explain their vision of what leave really means to the people.
Just got back from a night ride
That newsnight clip 😂😂😂
The outburst of “oh god” from Emily Maitlis on hearing the sweary “**** knows..... it’s like the living dead” was absolute gold, I would have loved for the camera to pan to her facial reaction but I’ll happily settle for her on screen evisceration of the slim streak of rank piss otherwise known as Jacob Rees Mogg, it was the equivalent of knocking him on his arse with a suitable right hook followed by watching him slope off dribbling piss in fear of another kicking, you can tell she really enjoyed getting laid in to him on that interview 👍👏
For people watching parliament far too closely while all this unfolds…
1) ride
2) watch this…
https://twitter.com/rhodri/status/1111254719777914881?s=21
ransos
Subscriber
As a tactic in England, what is so hard to understand here?I find it hard to understand why you would refer to England as a monolithic entity, when you’re actually referring to parts of the conservative party and its campaign to be elected as the UK government.
If you can't understand, just go away, ffs! Your inability to comprehend simple answers isn't really a problem I've any interest in helping you with. 😆
Here’s an idea …vote for part A
Wait to see if there’s a reasonable part B
That means in effect that Part B is whatever PM Johnson/Mogg cooks up.
Yes, it's an idea. Just not a very good one.
Because if we don’t like the planned “Part B” we want it put to a referendum or Revoked” it’s too late for that if we allow Part A through.
The compromise, as I said the day after the referendum, is to not blindly throw the country under a bus. Rather it’s to remain in the EU but find out why people wanted to leave and then seriously address those concerns. The “out means out” brigade are very loud indeed but they are a minority within a minority.
That's not a compromise in any way shape or form.
Because it doesn't give anything to the referendum.
No he didn’t, then
Cutting off words to take it out of context? Nice play.
It's leave (in name only) and make a decision without the frustration of the clock ticking whilst still keeping the important elements of the EU.
And a few of you would well to head Varoufakis' closing remarks: we have a cheap economy in or out of the EU because of UK economic policy.
Don't kid yourself being in the EU is going to improve our general race to the bottom without a change of ideology.
How to deliver remain? Give brexiters as much air time as possible to contradict each other
Agree. All of the conflicting ideas should really have been scrutinized fully to show that each person is just making it up.
That’s not a compromise in any way shape or form.
Because it doesn’t give anything to the referendum.
What do you mean by "doesn’t give anything to the referendum"?
It’s leave...
Indeed it is.
Don’t kid yourself being in the EU is going to improve our general race to the bottom without a change of ideology.
Of course, however we can see inspiration and guidance from others, have out wings clipped by the EU when we try and hurt the people
https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/
Excellent article on how the government screwed up the negotiations
BUT
and Ive seen this a few times from brexiteers
Vote Leave are now saying that triggering A50 too early was never their idea, they always had 'a plan'
Ann Marie Morris said it on Newsnight last week & I smelled a rat then , all Pro Leave MPs (and many non remainer ones to prove their Leaver credentials) were baying for A50 to be tiggered ASAP
heres Matthew Eliot who claimed in the article that he didnt want it triggered at the time, saying the opposite, at the time
https://twitter.com/PropertySpot/status/1111360288467632130
“the definition of insanity is doing the same thing yet expecting different results.” What is your interpretation
Ah install a different person
Kuenssberg thinks the deal still won't pass. What do we think?
Will get rejected by around 30 votes.
Think it's going to be V close this time. On the one hand there are opposition MPs in Leave consituencies who won't want to be seen 'stpping brexit' especially today, but on the other the fact that May is going and the IV debate put some wind into peope's sails again may mean some Tories feel like they can vote against it.
Kuenssberg thinks the deal still won’t pass. What do we think?
The first big Hammering May took, there's been so many I can't remember, think it was MV1, Keunssberg had her down as sneaking it through, ended up with a massive doing.
Her guess is no better than ours.
I've put a fiver on it passing at 3 to 1 . If rhys-mogg and his cronies can make money off this farce then why not me . I really hope I lose that fiver but I have a feeling that there will be a fair few labour MPs from leave constituencies who will be thinking about how they justify their position at the next election that will break ranks
Is it really squeaky bum time? It would take a massive labour revolt.
Edit: perhaps not if the Tories are getting behind it en masse
Her guess is no better than ours
Except she's running around asking MPs how they're going to vote. I suspect more people will speak out this time.
Liam Fox says they risk opening a chasm of distrust.
That they think that we have any trust in them at all, especailly this far into this debacle, is astounding.
is astounding.
I doubt he means it. Just a convenient sound bite like will of the people.
Don’t kid yourself being in the EU is going to improve our general race to the bottom without a change of ideology.
This is what I don't get about the remain argument. There are very good reasons to be in the EU, freedom of movement, security cooperation, improving international relations etc, but these are ignored in favour of the economic arguments, which for most/many people in this country do not stack up. What are we going to celebrate if we end up remaining? The continuance of an economic system which marginalises those at the bottom and amplifies the gap between rich and poor?
I don’t know, he’s pretty clueless & ignorant!
Dazh - the argument is pretty strong that without EU social justice legislation the gap between rich & poor in the uk would be even wider!
The continuance of an economic system which marginalises those at the bottom and amplifies the gap between rich and poor?
You mean the economic system that the whole of the world runs on and is no way going to be changed by leaving the EU?
the argument is pretty strong that without EU social justice legislation the gap between rich & poor in the uk would be even wider!
Not disagreeing with that, the social justice and other related aspects of the EU are the reasons we should stay, not the pro-neoliberal free market race to the bottom economic system. So why do most/many people on the remain side only talk about the latter?
Our equality gap is created entirely by our taxation system and the inability of governments to properly invest in the important stuff like high-value tech creation to generate jobs and public services
being in or out of the EU won't change that, the only possibility is it gets worse because all work the EU does to alleviate poverty won't be received by us
If you can’t understand, just go away, ffs! Your inability to comprehend simple answers isn’t really a problem I’ve any interest in helping you with. 😆
You don't get to decide whether I stay here or not. If you're unable to explain why you're conflating the conservative party with England, the problem is yours, not mine.
What % of MP's are currently voting on the basis of what the areas they supposedly represent voted for during the referendum of 2016?
Dunno, but mine isn't.
That’s not a compromise in any way shape or form.
Sure it is. People voted to leave for many different reasons. The "out means out" brigade are a vocal minority, for every one of those headcases there's likely ten normal people who voted to leave because they believed it'd make more money for the NHS. Give more money to the NHS, they've got what they wanted, no need to leave in order to do that. Rinse and repeat for immigration and every other single-policy reason many many people voted. Everyone's a winner apart from racist pensioners, newspaper owners and disaster capitalists, and frankly they can all get in the sea.
If your partner decides they want to move house, and when you ask why they say they don't like the wallpaper, is it not a better idea just to redecorate?
Because it doesn’t give anything to the referendum.
Well, it does, see above; but in any case: so what?
It’s leave (in name only) and make a decision without the frustration of the clock ticking whilst still keeping the important elements of the EU.
And what exactly does that gain us? Yay, we'll only be in a slightly worse position than we are currently, sign me up.
Certainly not alister jack, conservative mp for Dumfries and Galloway, we voted to remain but he’s nothing but a minor Tory mp frantically grasping onto the lower rungs of the Tory lickspittle greasy pole whilst desperately doffing his cap and tugging his forelock to the paymasters above him, if he thought it would help his career I imagine he’d sell his morals and conscience for a vote......oh hang on....too late for that as his voting record shows. Roll on the next election when we will turf him out along with all the other Tory ****stains.
The line being fed by Labour was that the constituency might be leave but the ones who vote got them are majority remain.
Passing the wa and removing may delivers a mental tory at the helm for part 2.
So why do most/many people on the remain side only talk about the latter
Because even democratic socialist utopias can suffer recessions as well. And recessions always hit the poor the hardest. A 10 percent drop in GDP isn't going to have a huge effect on me when well over 50 percent of our household income is disposable and only 19 percent is spent on rent.
I have nothing useful to add but want to thank* Kelvin, for the fact that i am now at random intervals singing 'Mr Peter Bone' in my best John Bercow voice.
* genuinely, because for the last year or so I've been stuck in a random loop of singing 'Peter Dinklage' to the Game of Thrones tune. New series 15.4, I suspect I'll be back on the Dinklage once it starts.
What are we going to celebrate if we end up remaining? The continuance of an economic system which marginalises those at the bottom and amplifies the gap between rich and poor?
well not letting the hard right get their wet dream of exacerbating that with their brexit for a start.
You can argue all you like about the effect of Keynesian economic policy but wtf that has to do with our relationship with Europe I'm afraid you're going to have to explain, seeing as the currency, taxation, redistribution of wealth and all other aspects of fiscal policy are very much in the hands of our government.
The simplistic leaver argument of 'eu bad, private sector and our government good' ( otherwise known as 'blame the foreigners' ) doesn't hold much water on this one, either.
The continuance of an economic system which marginalises those at the bottom and amplifies the gap between rich and poor?
1) That economic system is nothing to do with the EU.
2) I'll vote for parties that try to eliminate that gap even if we remain.
3) If we leave, we're likely to be poorer, which means there will be even less money with which to help the disadvantaged.
So yes, I will celebrate remaining cos it means we still the option of avoiding hardship.
moggy has obviously decided what he wont be listening to the dup after all
https://twitter.com/carldinnen/status/1111636378209734656
unless theyve flipped too?
moggy has obviously decided what he wont be listening to the dup after all
He is beyond scum. An absolute charlatan. Anyone who supports him or voted for him needs locked up
nervous. Very nervous.......
Just spotted my MP.
She appears to be dressed as a Tellytubby.
Laa-laa specifically.
This is tense but encouraging tweets from the Labour side.
As MPs voted, Liberal Democrat Layla Moran tweeted that the 'no' lobby was "heaving".
"Lots of leavers here. Defeated roundly I predict," she said.
I have a bad feeling about this…
Edit: thanks for that bit of confidence inspiring news @mattyfez…
Government defeated 344 - 286 - majority of 58
It's in - lost by 58.
It's still all to play for.
Still got more votes than any of the indicative votes. But that's moot now.
Raab, Jonson, Mogg.....
all voted for Mays deal
the only way to make any sense of this farce is if you view Brexit as an internal powerplay within the Tory party
it has nothing to do with what's best for the country
So is that the new definition of close then?
Whips have to be off for Monday now, there is no plan b we need a plan b or a new pm to ask for time.
the only way to make any sense of this farce is if you view Brexit as an internal powerplay within the Tory party
Well, to be fair - you could argue that the context had changed - as in, we would vote against it, we don't like it, but the cliff edge looms and we've nothing else.
NOTHING HAS CHANGED
Having just seen the brexiteers who went through the aye lobby on the any brexit is a good brexit parade, I hope their credibility is destroyed, they do not know what they want only to have some hand on the wheel.
One path I see would be to whittle down indicative votes to get a position to ask the government to adopt. State that as the aim and if the government resufes to the polls.
I said you could argue that, not that it was the case 🙂
One path I see would be to whittle down indicative votes to get a position to ask the government to adopt.
Isn't that what's planned for Monday?
It was a daft idea, with the timing after May said she would resign. No opposition would vote for it, allowing May to resign and Boris to lead us forward in a charge of glittering unicorns.
Possibly if she'd not said she was going it would have made more sense, however there was also legal ambiguity on what just voting for the WA meant. So more can-kicking...
Are the Voting results out of who voted which way?
kimbers
Subscriber
Raab, Jonson, Mogg…..all voted for Mays deal
Cause they all know their position, no deal, is busted. Voting for Mays deal is them acknowledging that.
Only options now are; Customs Union, if they can get the EU to agree. Ref. Revoke. Or go for a long extension, most likely 5 years imo, then call a GE and then restart the merry go round again.
Doubt the EU will agree tbh they'll probably hold us to no deal or revoke on April 10/12th. It's the EU's turn in the game of brinkmanship now...
Possibly telling from May in her speach: 'Mr Speaker, I fear we are reaching the limits of this process in this House'
a.k.a back to the people? I know she is anti it; but increasingly there is no other way.
Isn’t that what’s planned for Monday?
The process was not confirmed last I heard.
At least she doesn't have to resign now
mickmcd
Member
At least she doesn’t have to resign now
She'll be gone soon enough.
MV4 then?
No deal being put firmly back on the table by EU, now out of parliament's hands unless they can agree an alternative course of action.
In Latin please, this is at least as grandiose as the superbowl
MVIV
Or
WAII
Or possibly IVII
At what point do we stop applying the word 'meaningful' to these votes, as the results are clearly having no effect?
mefty
Member
No deal being put firmly back on the table by EU, now out of parliament’s hands unless they can agree an alternative course of action.
extension time!, as long as May doesnt try anything else stupid
(splitting the wa & pd was always a bonkers idea, but May did it anyway)
Raab, Jonson, Mogg…..
all voted for Mays deal
But of course. "Vote for me and you can have a pop at leadership.