On this point, how is she going to make that vote happen, given Bercow’s ruling?
Same as has been done before. Historic precedent can be made to work both ways.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-parliaments-47643256
Same as has been done before. Historic precedent can be made to work both ways.
What's the precedent?
On this point, how is she going to make that vote happen, given Bercow’s ruling?
As I said, she said last night that she has obtained formalised further reassurances as regards the backstop(s). The basis of "substantial change" will be based on that, I suspect.
for ignoring the referendum result. It’s just as entrenched a position as the no-deal headbangers, however sympathetic I might be to the motivations behind it.
Only if you consider that by calling A50 and spending time negotiating a WA as ignoring it, if your entrenched position is that any brexit is brexit and what was voted for is whatever gets delivered.
You assume that nobody can change their minds (which the PM does by ignoring people) and that nothing has changed.
The political decisions that need to be made are about what is on offer today, not what was on offer in 2016.
Yep, last week's agreement on the backstop between May and Tusk(?) was formally adopted by the EU27 last night, so there's a bit of a change to use as leverage too.
Then there was the early negotiating period, during which EU leaders thought May’s robotic, inscrutable manner concealed a deep, strategic intelligence. They came to realise that there was no mask. The inanity – the reciting of “Brexit means Brexit” even in private meetings – was not the cover story for a secret plan. It was the plan.
May is finished, she has no friends left. That final demagogic stunt she pulled on Wednesday has finished her domestically. The EU also sealed her fate by granting an unconditional extension until the middle of April, just enough time to remove her.
When and it is "when" not "if" MV3 fails May will be ousted there will be an interim Tory leader, probably Liddington. The EU will be asked for a long extension and there will be a general election and either a 2nd ref or a softer Brexit.
Have we cone this yet?
Vince Cable claimed that Theresa May in her meeting with opposition leaders said that "the people voted for pain" when asked about the damage No Deal might wreak.
https://twitter.com/jamesorharry/status/1108858494021701632
Her inner dominatrix is emerging?
Whether you agree with Brexit or not,something workable could have been achieved from a bespoke/new off the shelf package to one of the options already out there.
Theresa May is soley responsible for the mess we're in now.History will quite rightly not be kind to her.
Theresa May is soley responsible
I would suggest that the whole oxbridge political class have been exposed as incompetent idiots educated beyond their intelligence. There is not a single one that has demonstrated any kind of intellect, thought process or problem solving abilaty. They all just keep plowing on stupidly believing in their privileged destiny to rule.
This is a systemic problem of rule by the elites (the real elites, the rich over privileged assholes who a running the show, not the pretend elite liberals champagne socialist the alt right crow about). I would have even see the exposure as a silver lining, but their grasp of power is so powerful they are still able to scapegoat the responsibility onto the EU and the liberals, rather than where it really lies.
ransos,
Yes some remainers would have continued to want to ignore the vote no matter what direction brexit took.
But the changing opinions in the voters are at least as much of a reflection of Theresas failure.
As I said, recognising division, trying to resolve it and steering a middle ground soft brexit would have made most of the rancour go away.
But she didn't do that.
So here we are.
MSP I'm referring to May post the Brexit vote.She has excluded everyone,even her own party.Her judgement-if she even has any- has been completely flawed at every turn from her timeasHomeSecretary,her leader's speech at the Tory conference,her red lines,her appointment of ministers,her call for an election,her treatment of parliament and the EU etc etc etc.
The fact is that wishing to remain in the EU means ignoring the referendum result.
No it doesn't.
We had a general election in 2017. Why is that not undemocratically ignoring the results of the 2015 GE?
I’m saying you lot want it to be ignored, set aside, reversed or whichever way you want to phrase it.
No we don't.
You keep asserting this. It's not true, it's leaver spin, and I don't know how many more times we can explain the same thing in slightly different ways until you understand.
the government gave a very clear commitment that a Yes vote would mean leaving the EU.
The government gave a very clear commitment that Cameron would deliver whatever the result. How's he doing?
It seems to me that they’ve been hijacked by shouty gammons and disaster capitalists, meanwhile, the pissed-off, poor and desparate continue to have their voices ignored.
Yet it's perfectly acceptable to ignore the voices the 16+ million who voted to remain.
Please explain to me how 17M votes is "the will of the people" and 16M votes is "we won you lost shut up and get on with it." The gammons complain about "remoaners" but is it any wonder when next to no-one is speaking for us, rather attempting to bully us into silence at every turn. Is this a democracy you recognise?
This entire thing is an exercise in cherry-picking. Different rules are being applied to near-identical situations depending on whether it goes in leave's favour or not.
May **** the job
but those idiot brexiteers cheered her red lines, the same red lines that made her deal & the backstop inevitable
unfortunately those same MPs, the pundits, papers, farage etc still pushing out the same BS that we can somehow magically have our cake & eat it
I was arguing with someone on facebook last night who was certain we send the EU £39bn a week.......
Adopting the Euro is not compulsory
It is for new joiners, no?
No.
A mandatory precursor to joining the Euro is 2 years in the ERM. Joining the ERM is completely voluntary.
I was arguing with someone on facebook last night who was certain we send the EU £39bn a week…….
Unfortunately this level of education and understanding seems to be the most common amongst the vocal leavers on our local Facebook groups. In other words there is no education or understanding beyond what they heard someone say in the chip shop on Friday night.
Out of all the rational leavers I know, the ones who put some kind of objective thought into their decision and continue to do so: I don't know a single one who wishes to leave on the current terms.
New joiners to the E.U. are required to meet convergence criteria, leading to membership of the Euro. (Lifted from the European Commission website) There is no written timetable for this, but it will be part of the accession process.
Anyone heard any more about this lorry driver's protest? Still only local outlets and the express reporting anything.
https://twitter.com/hashtag/BBCAskThis?src=hash
The BBC are inviting questions to be put to them on BBC news later today
No it doesn’t.
We had a general election in 2017. Why is that not undemocratically ignoring the results of the 2015 GE?
The referendum was to seek a mandate for a specific action that cannot easily be reversed. It is very different to a general election, though you will be aware that the last general election also gave an overwhelming majority to parties committed to leaving the EU.
The government gave a very clear commitment that Cameron would deliver whatever the result. How’s he doing?
I don't recall seeing Cameron's name on the ballot paper.
Please explain to me how 17M votes is “the will of the people” and 16M votes is “we won you lost shut up and get on with it.” The gammons complain about “remoaners” but is it any wonder when next to no-one is speaking for us, rather attempting to bully us into silence at every turn. Is this a democracy you recognise?
I expect Scottish nationalists feel the same way: it's how referendums work.
No 10 run by lunatics says source close to the cabinet. It is so far beyond satire...
DoeS this mean brexival is cancelled or postponed?
Can I get a refund ?
Out of all the rational leavers I know, the ones who put some kind of objective thought into their decision and continue to do so: I don’t know a single one who wishes to leave on the current terms
This quote from a leaver just posted on our local FB group seems to concur.
"Teresa May.Is either a person who like Baldrick has a very cunning plan not yet come to fruition
or
Has lost the plot and needs someone to tell her that it is all over this time next week.
or
Needs to see a audiologist because she definitely is not hearing what is said to her
or
May be have the onset of some repetitive disorder about the word deliver.
She keeps stating that she is going to deliver to the people and has being doing so for ages.
Has anyone got a idea what it is that she is or is not delivering?
I thought that I was pretty good at weighing people up
This woman has me baffled.What was a simple task for a person with the right frame of mind she has complicated beyond belief.She has killed off what was left of any trust in politicians.
She has put democracy on a knife edge.She has not helped to bring the people together after a divisive vote but opened up opportunities for it to become more so.She was a failure as the Home Secretary but wholeheartedly denies that any decisions that she made then were wrong.She has surrounded herself with Numpties."
We had a general election in 2017. Why is that not undemocratically ignoring the results of the 2015 GE?
And you say I'm being obtuse? You know full well general elections are different to referenda. Even the uneducated thickos who voted leave understand this.
No we don’t.
What do you want then if not to reverse the decision of the referendum? You may think it's clear but I have no idea what you want if it's not to cancel brexit.
The government gave a very clear commitment that Cameron would deliver whatever the result.
Please come on, this is getting silly. You know full well that governments are bound by the decisions of previous governments. You can't argue that May should cancel brexit because she wasn't PM when the referendum was legislated.
The referendum was to seek a mandate for a specific action that cannot easily be reversed. It is very different to a general election, though you will be aware that the last general election also gave an overwhelming majority to parties committed to leaving the EU.
Turns out we thought it could not be reversed but that was just the Maybot trying to hide that from us, had you known it could have been easily reversed would that have changed your vote?
I think it's also been said many times, the only conclusion you can draw from the last GE was Brexit and party politics don't mix well, trying to claim a vote for Labour was a vote for Leave is and has been shown to be false.
You are May's statistician and I claim my 5 shillings
This woman has me baffled.
The Guardian today has an article on the total dysfunction at the heart of government. She's gone full paranoid bunker mentality. Apparently she consults absolutely nobody before making decisions, and not even the cabinet members have the remotest idea what she's going to do before she does it. Hence that outrageous 'enemies of the people' speech the other night which managed to alienate pretty much all the remaining support she had, and anyone outside the bunker would have advised her not to make. one cabinet member has stated, in a direct quote, that Number 10 is now 'run by lunatics'
She has also stated that as she can't be dislodged by the party she has no intention of resigning, under any circumstances
To all intents and purposes we are now living in an elected dictatorship
We are all passengers in a speeding car with a suicidal madwoman at the wheel
You know full well that governments are bound by the decisions of previous governments.
Oh my god! Some of the claims made on here recently… I mean… come on… at least try and make your bullshit make sense. What would be the point of electing new governments if they couldn't change what previous governments have inacted? How would a government be able to set us on the road to leaving the EU, if previous governments had decided to sign us up to the treaties that make us a member?
Turns out we thought it could not be reversed but that was just the Maybot trying to hide that from us, had you known it could have been easily reversed would that have changed your vote?
I think it’s also been said many times, the only conclusion you can draw from the last GE was Brexit and party politics don’t mix well, trying to claim a vote for Labour was a vote for Leave is and has been shown to be false.
You are May’s statistician and I claim my 5 shillings
If you're saying that leaving and rejoining the EU is a simple process then I'm eager to learn more. Really though, all you're doing is proving DazH's point that there is no limit to the gymnastics you'll perform in order to justify your point of view.
So, to avoid No Deal, it just requires Parliament, with May's permission, to put aside party and personal considerations and come up with at least the beginnings of a plan within about the next 10 days.
We're stuffed 🙁
Oh my god! Some of the claims made on here recently… I mean… come on… at least try and make your bullshit make sense.
So you're arguing that the May government is not bound by the referendum result because it was held by the Cameron government? And please, give the insults a rest.
Our council tax has gone up again.
I have written to mr grayling asking how much it will go down next year once we have taken back control.
I await his response.
Please write to your leave MP asking the same question.
We’re stuffed
It does suggest either No Deal or No May, doesn't it? But she'll find a way to cling on somehow, I suspect.
You know full well that governments are bound by the decisions of previous governments.
This is untrue
So, to avoid No Deal, it just requires Parliament, with May’s permission, to put aside party and personal considerations and come up with at least the beginnings of a plan within about the next 10 days.
We’re stuffed 🙁
I'm slightly (though not much) more optimistic: discipline has completely broken down in the Tory party so there's a chance that Parliament can act decisively without her permission.
If you’re saying that leaving and rejoining the EU is a simple process then I’m eager to learn more.
Nope the article 50 process has an exit clause (Which the PM tried to block being highlighted) , the process of leaving is reversible up until the date we agree a leave and the date from that. We are still in that process at the moment and nobody has presented a deal that is acceptable to a majority of those who voted leave let alone those who voted remain.
There is a dedline - the UK needs to come up with a plan to leave or remain.
Really though, all you’re doing is proving DazH’s point that there is no limit to the gymnastics you’ll perform in order to justify your point of view.
I'm still waiting for Daz to tell us how he knows what is unacceptable to the people given current polling doesn't support that. The basis for his entire argument is built on opinions not facts hence if gets stuck in loops a lot.
I do want to cancel Brexit, but would fully accept the result of a second referendum even if it was to still leave the EU. The cards are now on the table, we know the immediate cost, we know some of the potential pitfallss and most of the projected benefits, we also know how complicated it is to make it work.
Let’s vote again in the cold light of day and see what the people say. I guarantee you that if its still leave, it’ll kill the remain cause.
No government can bind its successor to anything. Its a basic princple of UK governance.
And please, give the insults a rest.
Pointing out an untruth is an insult?
You know full well that governments are bound by the decisions of previous governments.
Makes no sense. New governments would not be able to change anything implemented by their predecessors. Democracy would have stopped long ago.
I think a "no confidence" vote in the tory government now has a chance of passing. May has so upset so many tories and the DUP its quite possible enough would vote her down.
That would need a handful of Conservative MPs to become independents… but some speeches this week suggest that isn't impossible. May has really rattled some of them.
No government can bind its successor to anything. Its a basic princple of UK governance.
Knowing the pedantry on here I should have added 'until the government repeals previous legislation', but obviously I'm being somewhat generous in thinking that people would have realised that. Still, if you want to argue that the result of the referendum should be nullified on the basis that it wasn't May's idea then good luck!
That would need a handful of Conservative MPs to become independents… but some speeches this week suggest that isn’t impossible. May has really rattled some of them.
Or agree to take it down for the last hope of the party. Going another 4 or 5 rounds of this will help none of them.
Daz - I agree with your top point above about being bound by previous legislation.
The Referendum, however, in legislation, was not binding, but advisory. So nothing binding this government to its result at all.
Still, if you want to argue that the result of the referendum should be nullified on the basis that it wasn’t May’s idea then good luck!
[Whats the point]
Nothing stated here nullifies the result. It updates the position, I mean it's not like asking the same question over and over again while holding a knife to the throat is it....
June 2016 happened, we all know that, this is March 2019 we need to find a way out of the current situation and we have several legal options open to us.
https://twitter.com/KateEMcCann/status/1109077848210456576
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-47668926
A no-deal Brexit plan - in which one side of a motorway will be reserved for queuing lorries - will begin on Monday.
HGVs heading to the Port of Dover will use the coast-bound side of the M20, while all other traffic will be restricted to a contraflow system on the opposite side of the motorway.
It was designed to tackle disruption caused by delays at the border.
Fun times
"And I can’t flush all these red, white and blue lines away, they cost me loads. I’ll just get high on them one last time, then I’ll be properly ready.”
Britain then did a large amount of patriotic nonsense before adding: “****, I am out of it! Isambard Kingdom Brunel! We invented the internet, bitches! Bobby Moore! Stand on our own two feet! TAKE BACK CONTROL!”
Hahahaha.
I think a “no confidence” vote in the tory government now has a chance of passing. May has so upset so many tories and the DUP its quite possible enough would vote her down.
You'd like to think so TJ but turkeys are still unlikely to vote for an early Xmas just because they can't agree on the stuffing recipe.
Understand Number 10 now seriously considering indicative votes on Brexit next week.
Will indicative votes be for unicorns though? Will FoM redline be explicitly addressed? Will Customs Union voted on be on something implementable? Or more "freedom to strike own deals" and "a say in EU trade deals yet not bound by them" nonsense?
Bike parts became more expensive after the referendum and will go up again if we leave. We should stay in the EU if only for the bike bling.
Peston reckons MPs will bungle it & we'll end up in no deal in 3 weeks
commmon sense left this country 3 years ago
Well the ERG are sensing weakness
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1109081895889973251
Bike parts became more expensive after the referendum and will go up again if we leave. We should stay in the EU if only for the bike bling.
I just ordered a new rotor from bike-discount.de for this very reason.
I think what offends me more than anything about this whole process is the amount of power over all our lives that seems to have ended up in the hands of jumped-up, obnoxious, little ****s like Mark Francois
+++++1111111!!!!!oneone
Boil on the arse of humanity.
I just ordered a new rotor from <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">bike-discount.de</span> for this very reason.
I'm on the cusp of buying something shiny new and carbony but couldn't arrange a test ride of my last option until the week after B-day. Extending to April 12th gives me just enough time 😀
Bike parts became more expensive after the referendum and will go up again if we leave. We should stay in the EU if only for the bike bling.
Taiwanese, USA and UK made stuff?
Some people need to look up the difference between "advisory" and "binding".
Advisory is what the referendum was (and why no supermajority or percentage of the electorate was defined to win as would be the case with a binding one).
Parliament decided to treat a non binding referendum as binding.
I guess they could decide to reverse that decision in the face of current events?
Put out a statement saying "We took your advice as far as possible and its all gone wrong."
Would that be a problem for you dazh & co.?
Cos it shouldn't 🙂
EDIT: I can see that such an approach would cause issues with "fervent leavers", but frankly, there is no brexit (or anything else) that would solve their problems anyway.
I’m on the cusp of buying something shiny new and carbony but couldn’t arrange a test ride of my last option until the week after B-day. Extending to April 12th gives me just enough time 😀
I assume that was what Tusk had in mind when making his suggestion, no?
Taiwanese, USA and UK made stuff?
£ crashing will screw us, the magic no tariff state sounds like it won't last long. UK parts will rise on the increased cost of Aluminium required etc. anything with stuff requiring imported goods will suffer. Every time a bad exits gets close the pound drops.
So driving to Austria this Wednesday and coming back on 12th April might not be the best plan I’ve ever had I’m thinking.
If TM is serious about indicative votes, the options on the table need to be sensible and achievable. Preferably agreed cross party. I liked the idea of all options voted for, bottom one drops out each time.
Taiwanese, USA and UK made stuff?
Yes, we can get them via European shops imported at low rates due to their trade deals.
Oh well...UK made is still on the list (provided raw material prices don't become an issue).
Edit - or what Mike said, take you pick really.
If TM is serious about indicative votes,
What makes you imagine that she is, given that the ERG are strongly opposed to them?
Parliament decided to treat a non binding referendum as binding.
And in the subsequent 2017 general election both the main parties manifestos stated that they would honour the referendum and implement Brexit,even the SNP stated that it would decide what to do about a second Indy ref. after the Brexit process.Something mikesmith conveniently keeps neglecting to remember when he refers to the "3 year old 2016 referendum" outcome.
Preferably agreed cross party. I liked the idea of all options voted for, bottom one drops out each time.
I don't, I could see some sensible options dropped early in parliamentary voting, then as only the insane options are left everyone going "oh we ****ed it up again". There has been nothing in the past 3 years that make me believe government or parliament is capable of acting sensibly and in the nations best interests.
And in the subsequent 2017 general election both the main parties manifestos stated that they would honour the referendum and implement Brexit,even the SNP stated that it would decide what to do about a second Indy ref. after the Brexit process.Something mikesmith conveniently keeps neglecting to remember when he refernces the 3 year old 2016 referendum outcome.
So with both parties major parties going hell for leather to implement brexit instead of trying to deal with the underlying wealth disparity, lies and corruption, the public wasn't given a realistic alternative at that election.
And in the subsequent 2017 general election both the main parties manifestos stated that they would honour the referendum and implement Brexit
worked out well didn't it...
DrJ - BBC reported exactly that. None of us are in the room so that’s all we have.
So nothing binding this government to its result at all.
The people were promised the result would be enacted. I appreciate you want to grasp at whatever flimsy straw exists to reverse the result but it doesn’t change the reality.
The people were promised the result would be enacted.
they were also promised £350 million a week and the 'easiest negotiation ever'.
when does that get delivered?
Unfortunatly the reality is not what you seem to think daz.
1) the referendum was advisory
2) NO government can bind its successor
3) most of us actually want a mechanism for stopping this nonsense and its perfectly possible and legal for parliament to say no to brexit ( if unlikely)
4) a second referendum changes everything. a second referendum trumps the first.
People were promised many things in the campaign, virtually all have been proven to be lies. Implementing brexit is still the action that will destroy most lives, and is absolute insanity. Time that was explained more freely instead of just regurgitating "brexit means brexit" and "leave won so shut up and get on with it".
nick1962
I think a “no confidence” vote in the tory government now has a chance of passing. May has so upset so many tories and the DUP its quite possible enough would vote her down.
You’d like to think so TJ but turkeys are still unlikely to vote for an early Xmas just because they can’t agree on the stuffing recipe.
It would only take half a dozen tories to vote for the no confidence motion. 2 have already left the party 4 toryies with the decency to put country before party. Its certainly possible
Just have a binding referendum, in or out, status quo is we"re leaving needs to be a super majority to change to remain... 45 vs 55% enough to convince?
I don’t, I could see some sensible options dropped early in parliamentary voting, then as only the insane options are left everyone going “oh we **** it up again”. There has been nothing in the past 3 years that make me believe government or parliament is capable of acting sensibly and in the nations best interests.
Indeed. I'm really not comfortable with such a voting process taking place in a highly pressurised environment that is practically in a state of panic. You may as well toss a coin.
As a civilisation, we are smart enough to deal with these problems, and we are smart enough to know that the entire process has become irrational. We need to deal with these problems before proceeding any further.
Something mikesmith conveniently keeps neglecting to remember when he refers to the “3 year old 2016 referendum” outcome.
Mentioned it a few times now, there is no link to a preference on Brexit to Labour or Tory votes, many people voted on a great deal of issues that had nothign to do with Brexit, some votes for both parties had more to do with Tuition fees than the Brexit referendum.
It would only take half a dozen tories to vote for the no confidence motion.
Ken Clark could be first on the list, plenty of others who have just been called out by the PM as the problem.
If TM is serious about indicative votes
Given her bloody-minded determination to avoid any democratic oversight whatsoever, and the fact that the only thing that separates her from a dictator is that she hasn't started wearing military regalia (yet), any votes will be a token gesture. If she holds them at all (which she won't) they'll be advisory and she'll go on to ignore them like she ignored the 'cross-party' talks she had, and has ignored everyone else other than the ERG.
I was convinced we'd be crashing out next week. Now I'm still equally as convinced she's just moved the date we crash out at back a few weeks. Just to torture us all that little bit more with some misplaced false hope. The demented bitch!
Interesting article here about how a 'democratic' process can quite easily produce a result that is anything other than democratic. This is what we have now and my concern is that the indicative vote process could end up delivering something really daft that nobody wants - ie we are no better off.
How a Strange Massachusetts Election Helps Explain Britain’s Brexit Chaos
Taiwanese, US, China, India, etc - it's all being traded through the EU common agreements, but don't worry because Liam fox has free trade agreements sorted with all these countries*
* he doesn't