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I wholeheartedly disagree, other countries do referendums well.
I'm sure we can too, when they're carried out in the right circumstances and the right way.
There is not a nation on earth that does not fall for propaganda in some way. In some respects, with so much information, it's more difficult now than ever. We cannot all be experts in every field, and so we delegate tasks to those with the knowledge, and put some amount of trust that in what they're telling us, is correct.
And with differing opinions, and a countless number of people stating their opinion or analysis to be correct, despite all of them being wildly different, it just becomes noise. It's not even Propaganda anymore. Any expertise is watered down to practically nothing, and you have everyone chucking in to the pot every last piece of food they own, just so the meal can be cooked.
Managed correctly from the top, it should be easy and painless decisions at the bottom. If other countries are doing it better, it's because they're managing it better. Put people in a position where it's easy to fail, many will fail. Put them in a position where it's easy to succeed, many will do just that. Any successful business knows this, because it's imperative they take this approach towards both their staff, and their product.
"... still have to meet our standards too."
And what about the other way? Anything we sell will have to meet the standards required by the other countries too. At the moment we get that via EU certification, which we lose if we leave. How on Earth are we going to prove our goods are safe post-brexit?
We cannot all be experts in every field, and so we delegate tasks to those with the knowledge, and put some amount of trust that in what they’re telling us, is correct.
Don't be silly. Britain has had enough of experts, remember.
I worry about the last bit. We know that standards are going to slip, so the goods will be shoddier. That might make them cheaper than they could be, or it could just make the UK the cash cow for dumping cheap shit.
Its no coincidence that all the Brexiteers are also ultra free-marketeers. They see a capitalist utopia of a Britain free of regulation completely. It'll be a race to the bottom as they jettison all the safeguards EU regulations have given us previously
They know that any free trade deal with the US will come with an insistence that we drop all environmental, argricultural and animal welfare standards, so its hello GM crops, chlorine washed chicken and hormone injected beef. Any other trade deals will involve similar trade offs
We're ****ed basically. We're all about to get completely rinsed by these Ayn Rand-worshipping profiteers
ultra free-marketeers.
basically anarchists, if you want give them their proper name..
If I were to give them their proper name it'd get caught in the swear filter.
basically anarchists
Only a very specialist subflavour. Overall they arent that keen on getting rid of hierarchies and they generally want to keep certain parts of the state, namely those bits which will protect them and issues laws which will get rid of tedious things like trade unions.
basically anarchists
I think Ken MacLeod would agree that Anarcho Capitalists is a better description. Anarchists, I think, just want a functioning society without rules so that they can, ultimately, make a better society for all. This lot seem to want to forment that change with the express purpose of making money for themselves and screw the rest of the population.
Beeb looking at setting up a presence in Belgium if there is a No Deal - bet the Brexies will love that!
We cannot all be experts in every field, and so we delegate tasks to those with the knowledge, and put some amount of trust that in what they’re telling us, is correct.
One of our problems is that our politicians set themselves up as experts, especially ministers who have been parachuted into posts they know nothing about.
If you listen to some of the leading Tory Brexiteers you soon realise that not only are they not experts on anything at all, you start to wonder how they actually manage to get dressed and tie their shoe laces to get out of the house in the morning. perhaps they're nanny helps
We cannot all be experts in every field, and so we delegate tasks to those with the knowledge
Critical thinking skills don't mean being an expert, it means being able to discern what the best sources, evaluating the arguments of those experts and making a decision on the factually based sources that you have read.
Something that a lot of Brits don't do.
One of our problems is that our politicians set themselves up as experts, especially ministers who have been parachuted into posts they know nothing about.
Which is why they should be skilled listeners and be able to evaluate the information they are receiving from trusted senior civil servants.
The basic arrangement is something along the lines of: look, if we mess this up, minister, you will carry the can politically and we will carry the can organisationally as we actually have to sort it out. So let's work together, please?
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.
its all about dogma
fk all to do with listening to experts
John McDonnell has given a brilliant (in my opinion) interview to BBC HARDtalk … mostly on Brexit … will post a link in the morning.
from ^^^^ think original poster forget to add the "stockpiling" impact comment
John McDonnell has given a brilliant (in my opinion) interview to BBC HARDtalk … mostly on Brexit … will post a link in the morning.
Not surprised, I think he is very good and comes across very well (relaxed, factual and answers questions - well more than most MPs anyway)
But then we don't want to have anything to do with a Marxist.
iPlayer link…
HARDtalk, John McDonnell - Labour Shadow Chancellor, UK: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0c0gzzh
@torsoinalake, the full segment was far far worse than even that clip suggests … sheep farmers should be queuing up to egg Delingpole in the street.
(Oh, but the obvious answer to that particular question was that a trade deal would still be sought by USA to remove non-tariff barriers… especially food standards and breaking up the bulk purchasing power of the NHS.)
John McDonnell is good - I've been to one of his consultation events and he's good in that sort of forum. He is also suited to the long form of interview like Hard Talk where a point can be followed through. I much prefer that in a politician than soundbites and "Line to Take" answers.
Thus sounds wonderful but any time I get my hopes up they are soon dashed.
Is this plausible?
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-already-been-cancelled-heres-13896286?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar&fbclid=IwAR1N7L7R3wZFIJuwphSIpLdgPm_7bMWLx_-3F3ywg18IHcejCHC1vkgx2tk
I watched James Delingpole getting dismantled last night. Absolutely unbelievable that people have been taken in by absolute clowns like him.
Went for a pint last night and was chatting to two blokes I know pretty well in my local (I'd taken one of them down a Dennis Skinner biography to read). Both are retired, both are intelligent, educated, well-travelled and interesting individuals. Definitely not gammons, by any stretch of the imagination. Both, however, are enthusiastic Brexiteers. Talking to them about why, they both list 'regaining our sovereignty' as their motivation for voting leave.
Both then went on to bemoan the absolute shambles that is Brexit. They are both of the opinion that this is the fault of the EU, who are punishing us for wanting to leave. Which I fear is where we are with regards to a second referendum
Interestingly, both are also of the opinion that Brexit 'was never going to happen'. They both firmly believe that Article 50 will be revoked at the eleventh hour, and it was always going to be thus, and this whole thing is just a charade.
I hope they're right.
Personaly I can't see anything other than a totally chaotic 'no deal' Brexit, simply due to the total incompetence and self-indulgence of our politicians
Thus sounds wonderful...
I'd love to believe it's true, but remember: parliament have to vote to rescind A50. That requires a motion to rescind, a vote, passing the Lords, etc. It would be all too easy to drift into a no-deal Brexit through inaction 🙁
@zippykona A few politicians have quietly been saying the same thing in the last few days/weeks. They don't have the time to pass all the legislation that's needed to give us a lawful 'no deal' scenario. The EU's no deal countermeasures will probably cover some of this but by no means all. Of course JRM will be along to explain that this is all minor detail and that it's perfectly fine to have no legislation underpinning pesky little things like international trade.
They are both of the opinion that this is the fault of the EU, who are punishing us for wanting to leave.
And this is where facts ram up against English exceptionalism, the EU will do what is in its interests, what is in the interests of the EU27. To expect anything different is delusional.
Have we done Mr Spoons interview?
That's painful. He sounds like a slightly more drunk version of Farage.
That he clearly didn't know what his company pays the bar staff that provide him with the life style that he's become perhaps overused to should be the monument to his idiocy.
That he clearly didn’t know what his company pays the bar staff
Or perhaps didnt want to admit to it.
Its interesting he is ranting about the Euro whilst his fellow elite brexiteer Dyson wanted us in it. I also like his talk about EU and UK laws. What about if a EU law was first proposed by the UK?
On the continuing theme of brexiteer politicans receiving large sums of cash. Owen Patterson seems to be trying to game the expenses register by having set up a think tank (which surely is an offence under trade descriptions since it consists of him alone) to channel funds through.
So all that appears in the interests register is the think tank paying him 30k for three trips rather than the true sources of his cash.
Delingpole up there just sums up where we are with Brexit
hes not alone
theres 100s of highly paid MPs, pundits, Think Tankers, journailists & other brexperts who are similarly bonkers & theres a good 40% of voters who seem to agree with them
I dispair
The whole situation has just been summed up by a journalist on Five Live. When asked about the performances of both May and Corbyn, he concluded:
"what on earth have we done as a nation to deserve these two idiots?"
Quite
Is this plausible?
Only if you think that the grown ups won't allow us to leave in some kind of legal limbo, hampering normally law abiding productive companies from doing business, but opening up opportunities for disaster capitalists to screw otherwise functioning markets and businesses for a quick profit.
What about if a EU law was first proposed by the UK?
And many EU laws will have been drafted by British civil servants. I once knew a bloke who wrote some EU law. He lived in Reading. Plenty of Brexiteers who moan about "sovereignty" just don't get it that WE ARE the EU.
The whole situation has just been summed up by a journalist on Five Live. When asked about the performances of both May and Corbyn, he concluded:
“what on earth have we done as a nation to deserve these two idiots?”
Quite
https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1088739816651538432
This is a good resource for the impact...
They know that any free trade deal with the US will come with an insistence that we drop all environmental, argricultural and animal welfare standards, so its hello GM crops, chlorine washed chicken and hormone injected beef. Any other trade deals will involve similar trade offs
Its worse than that, the US uses far more antibiotics in their livestock than EU countries, which as you know the liberal use of antibiotics is causing use major problems with "superbugs" at the moment.
basically anarchists, if you want give them their proper name..
To be fair to Len McClusky, he's an enthusiastic Brexiteer, so its perfectly understandable he thinks Jezza is playing a blinder
Just listened to the spoons interview,
could not name a "EU" single law that he objected to
got the facts wrong on the ERM and the Euro
did not know how much his bar staff are payed - as per above
Then rightly claimed to have been a barrister , quick check shows he was never in practice - I wonder why - if you don`t know your brief you will be thrown out...
Why not keep the Irish backdoor into europe
“what on earth have we done as a nation to deserve these two idiots?”
Voted for them.
Similarly what have we done to deserve brexit? We voted for it.
The people get the government they deserve. One day they might realise this and start thinking about it a bit more.
Voted for them.
Similarly what have we done to deserve brexit? We voted for it.
The people get the government they deserve. One day they might realise this and start thinking about it a bit more.
I sincerely hope you aren't holding your breath.
Much easier to either do what you've always done (or not bother at all) then blame it on a different group in society.
FPTP means you vote for the least idiotic sounding party/candidate out of the top two in your local area.
What is the average voter supposed to do? Voters don't chose the PM from a list of preferred candidates, do they?
FPTP means you vote for the least idiotic sounding party/candidate out of the top two in your local area.
Sadly its not really "least idiotic sounding" but often more "thats the one I always voted for/bunch of commies/daily mail says he eats a bacon sandwich wrong" and so on.
The thing that pissed me off most about the lib dems in coalition was how badly they handled the voting reform.
As someone who used their union vote for Corbyn, tell me, who was the better alternative? Burnham? Cooper? Eagle? Anyone else from the demonstrably unelectable New Labour old guard?
He was a token candidate and frankly the fact so many supported him, twice, tells you all you need to know about the quality of the Labour Party leadership candidates.
Well Yvette Cooper has been doing a damn sight better job of holding the government to account over Brexit than the useless, beardy allotment-dweller
But then she never wanted Brexit in the first place.
Well Yvette Cooper has been doing a damn sight better job of holding the government to account over Brexit
Like what exactly? Just what has she and the rest of the naysayers actually done that has prevented or held up brexit?
You’re aware of the only amendment to Mays bill on Tuesday that has a hope of stopping a no deal Brexit?
Guess who tabled it?
Clue: they don’t have a beard
He’s ****ing hopeless
Luckily some of his backbenchers(who all know how totally useless he is) aren’t.
To be fair… it has to be proposed by a back bencher to get any Tories on side… and as the DUP will vote against, that is essential.
Ah… if you check twitter to see if JC has voiced support for the amendment… he had a nice curry yesterday … I can't find much more.
Anyway, her amendment is about begging for an extension from the EU… without really offering them a good reason why… I'd much rather we took back control and withdrew our notification to Leave… it is the only way to "take no deal off the table"… everything else is just more can kicking.
FPTP means you vote for the least idiotic sounding party/candidate out of the top two in your local area.
Or worse you live in an area where the same Tory has been the MP for over 20 years and the lowest result he has achieved is 65%. Am I supposed to move to another area make my vote count? Great system.
Binners - the Tory rebels would never vote for an amendment put forward by the Labour Front Bench. So politics dictate it needs to come from back benchers like Yvette Cooper and Hilary Benn. Particularly given they both chair Select Committees (and Cooper is not generally flavour of the month with Labour Leaders) - this makes it easy for Tories,LD,SNP to vote for.
I've no idea whether there has been involvement in the amendments from Labour Leadership but I'd be surprised if it had not been discussed with either of the MPs.
Burnham? Cooper? Eagle? Anyone else from the demonstrably unelectable New Labour old guard?
As opposed to what you voted in? The sooner "the middle" wrestle back control of the Labour party the better.
I predict No Deal.
The reason is simple as no one wishes to compromise even until the deadline strikes which will happen naturally ...
No deal is better than a bad deal.
History in the making!
Act 2 scene 1. The fool enters.
It has been a while, the Kremlin must have been pushing the updates out again.
The small collection of no deal champions are getting ready for their trip back to asylum.
It has been a while, the Kremlin must have been pushing the updates out again.
I use Safari, is there a killfile available for this? I’ve always resisted the temptation until now, but the return of the bot has made the difference.
He's probably right though.
May has backed us (unintentionally I think) into a corner with her "no deal is better than a bad deal" line. There can never be a deal that even a significant minority will prefer to being a member… this was always the case… and politicans are too scared of the populists and press to do what needs doing, and stop the clock.
Never forget the tories are the party of business...
https://news.sky.com/story/liam-fox-has-extremely-low-credibility-says-unipart-boss-11617518
Liam Fox has extremely low credibility, says
Unipartboss
… absolutely everyone with a pulse.
The Tory party has always been ‘the party of business’ well that looks suitably ridiculous at the moment
A centrist Labour Party could capitalise on that to a huge degree. Unfortunately it’s got at its helm a man who you wouldn’t trust to run a bath, and who thinks Dianne Abbott is the kind of person you want setting laws, post Brexit.
We’re truly *ed
I know the true believers won’t accept any criticism of the useless beardy *-wit, but any centrist Labour Party would be making mincemeat out of this shambles. Instead...
Anyone heard from him lately? Let me guess... he’ll call for a general election then a vote of no confidence
It’s pathetic! He truly is a waste of oxygen. I’ve got items of furniture that would make a more effective ‘leader of HM opposition’
I’m starting to think he’s actually a hard right sleeper cell who’s been activated to facilitate Brexit
If you’re a remainer and you think Corbyn is on your side, I’m sorry, but you’re terminally deluded. He wants this as much as John Redwood does, he’s just conned a lot of well meaning idiots that he’s on their side
He isn’t!
Flyingleaps the poster publishers who brought you
'Strong And Stable My Arse' have just come up with another.
'Things Can Only Get Bitter'
https://www.flyingleaps.co.uk/
May has backed us (unintentionally I think) into a corner with her “no deal is better than a bad deal” line
Whilst technically true its hard to find a deal worse than no deal.
but any centrist Labour Party would be making mincemeat out of this shambles
No they wouldnt. There was a reason Blair handed over power. Unlike you he actually has political skills and knew he had ran the course and its best to go out on top.
Personally I am not a fan of Corbyn. I wish there was a better Labour option. However the key choice there is "Labour" not "New Labour" and not "****ing centrist".
Those idiots are the major reason we are in the shit.
Firstly most of them dont understand the overton window. If you head rightwards (or leftwards") to chase the centre then the "centre" moves with it. You end up making hard right politics normal to a stage where sensible policies are claimed to be far left. Wait long enough and you end up with USA style politics where your choice is hard right everything or just hard right economics.
Secondly, although overlaps with the previous, the only way to get good press with the hard right is to generally meet their owners wishes. Just look at how Cameron was portrayed as the master PR genius until he actually went against them.
Thirdly by ignoring the core voters they gave fertile ground to the ****ing UKIP liars who actually pretended to care about them.
Fourthly by their absolute ideological nuttery and hatred of Corbyn they gave the Maybot and the rest of the hard right plenty of ammo.
I know you are an ideological extremist but you really need to look beyond the myth of "centrist" and understand that they, and I assume by your worship of the position, you are pretty extreme.
I say that as someone who in theory should be a "centrist" but the difference seems to be I know I am a minority unlike most "centrists" who confuse being the swing voters with actually be a minority.
I want Labour to be Labour and the Tories to be Tories and the Libdems to come up with some decent arguments and the Greens to give up some of the nuttery so I could vote for them. Sadly those this is undermined by FPTP but thats another failure for the Libdems.
Have I installed the killfile? Or not?
Am I just ignoring him?
He’ll never know..........
#ivetakenbackcontrol
A centrist Labour Party could capitalise on that to a huge degree.
Just how exactly? WIth their pro-remain centrist agenda? Like the Liberal Democrats I suppose, how are they doing these days? People voted for this bloody thing because of centrist neo-liberal elites, on both labour and tory sides, ignoring them. So what evidence is there now that they would vote for a centrist labour party offering more of the same, with the same tired leadership candidates who couldn't beat a clapped out 70s Bennite with a bunch of unreformed marxists behind him?
Just how exactly?
Magic of course!
Backed up with a few inane screenshots showing the finger on the pulse.
The sad thing is the brexit elites have managed to figure out the flaws far before the "centrists" and despite not giving a shit are willing to lie to pretend they do. As such we are all screwed until the "centrists" admit to this and stop trying to make everyone dance to their inane tune.
The "centrists" aren't running either main party right now… and how's that turning out for us? All going great? If so, then sidelining them is obviously the right course to take. Not going so great? Hmmm…
Neither party seems to be interested in protecting our rights as workers, or to help business succeed. And, yes, ending FoM is removing rights from workers. Leaving the Single Market and Customs Union is putting hurdles up for business. Neither party is standing up for workers, or business. Retired people moaning about polish workers having a local shop they can buy a few reminders of their old country from… those people are being very well represented by both parties. Lucky them.
Well if the centrists hadn't all lost their shit when it turned out the minority party ina coalition wasn't in charge we might have moved forward from the 2 party flip flop we are still enjoying - I mean who can forgive that!!
An oscillation around the middle ground ain't a bad way to do things
I'm referring to the politicans, not the voters. Hence me referring to those running the two main parties. And as you point out… those are the only ones who are likely to be in charge of the country.
At the moment it's the people returning the politicians, though some might want to change that.
Plenty of seats where whoever stands for the right party … they are returned. We covered that.
The “centrists” aren’t running either main party right now
The maybot, under the current definition, would count as a "centrist" (which shows how ****ed the definition is). She is, like most of her kind, dancing to the hardliners whim. This is the flaw of the centrists. They play along with whoever shouts the loudest. The more noise the more they shift.
On the Labour front although I would hope they would actually try to support the leadership and try to influence them sadly with most of the ideological centrist extremists its pretty clear they mostly want to wipe out the current leadership and drag the labour party rightwards which maybe as a short term strategy might work again but will give us a massive backlash. Given the current leadership arent complete idiots though that gives them no reasons to play along.
There was an article a while back where one of Blairs inner circle was talking about how their politics had got around the confrontational aspect and found the mythical third way. Admittedly this might have the benefit of hindsight but I couldnt help but think it was pretending there wasnt opposing views and claiming everyone agreed wasnt a tad delusional.
So the problem with "centrists" is that they cede control over policy to those that aren't? But also that they won't support those that aren't? Well, that's clear.
Well, that’s clear.
Nope. Try again.
If it helps the problem is they dont generally comprehend they are ideologically bound and so cant handle moving beyond their own red lines. So they will go more and more extreme one direction without thinking maybe they would benefit from moving just one degree the other way. Instead they will go one hundred degrees rightwards. I use rightwards in this case since in theory it could go the other way in the UK it is dancing to the hard right press barons demands.
Ah, so, in the UK, it's just that those you think are "centrist" aren't left enough for you. Isn't tribalism great! Isn't it serving our country well right now…
…anyway… supporting Brexit, and especially ending FoM, is dancing to the hard right press barons' demands.
"dissonance
The maybot, under the current definition, would count as a “centrist” "
Well that's a huge part of the problem isn't it, the people who decide where the centre is seem to be the largely right wing press. Even the BBC said after May's first, downright freaky Tory conference with its xenophobia and "citizens of nowhere" rhetoric that she'd "parked her bus in the centre ground". It used to be said that to win you should move to the centre but then you don't get to do what you wanted to do, it's way smarter to just make sure everyone thinks the centre is waaaaaaaay over here.
It's genius really. Instead of stealing the ball, steal the entire pitch.