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You’re not going to get the EU to do away with their ‘4 Freedoms are indivisable’ just because you’ve got a beard.
LOL
I think it might actually start another civil war. I don’t think the republicans were the only ones with guns and bombs were they?
Possibly, my solution would be to hand NI back to the ROI and make the sectarian nutcases their problem, not ours. Mean. Yes. Unethical. Yes. Effective. Yes.
See, it's a perfect Tory policy, no idea why they haven't done it yet...
two diametrically opposed positions,
No, the point is that the Tories themselves have 2 diametrically opposed positions which May has failed to reconcile before commencing discussion with the EU. She was too cowardly to face down one of the wings of the party and we now see the result
See also the Labour positions on FoM and Single Market "access", and "a" customs union and a "say" in the trade deals the EU strikes with other third countries.
There’s a reason she’s scared of a people’s vote
Assuming you mean 2nd Referendum it's because the outcome can't be anything good. We were given a choice, "we" chose the worst option (politics of one or the other aside "we" chose huge change with no defined outcome over status quo).
There's little reason to really believe the same question would produce not only a different but a decisive enough result in favour of remain to achieve anything but poisoning the water even more.
A different question with remain on the ballot would effectively have to pitch remain against multiple versions of brexit meaning either a clear win for remain even with a <50% result which wouldn't be accepted, so you'd need AV of some sort, only we don't do AV. Add to that many remainers wouldn't willingly vote for any leave outcome unless it was very very well defined and even then probably not, so those ballots would risk being invalid.
If they were valid it likely wouldn't matter because in all probability the various leave options would be whittled down to the one which got slightly more votes than the next (very distinct risk that's a "no deal" that a very small % want but many brexiteers prefer to remain) and we end up with a leave option 20% of people actually wanted.
What we need is (to coin a phrase) strong and stable leadership, that's actually willing to lead rather than say "this question is too hard for the people you pay to answer these questions to answer, even with researchers and a significant comparative degree of knowledge, so we'll ask you lot instead."
the Tories themselves have 2 diametrically opposed positions
You keep mentioning 2, given i think it's rather more than that I've got to ask, do you mean the division of leave and remain? If you do do you really think that those positions don't exist in the PLP or that JC will manage to unite them given the chance?
dannyh - I'd love to dispute what you're saying about the English (and this is all about the English) as a nation, but that sounds pretty much on the money to me.
I just can't watch any more BBC vox pops of touthless, tracky clad, tattoed troglodytes saying 'Leave means leave, they need us more than we need them, no deal will be fine, we survived world war 2 on our own, JUST GET ON WIV IT!!!'
I've just now resigned myself to the fact that I live in a nation of the delusional and willfully pig ignorant! I've got old mates from back home on social media who regularly post Britain First and UKIP bullshit up. All of them voted OUT obviously
I didn't pick this up earlier:
The European Court of Justice has recently ruled that a member state which has given an Article 50 notice may unilaterally withdraw it, so long as such withdrawal is irrevocable and unconditional
So, no hokey-cokey.
Yeah it's not a negotiating tool, it's a proper sorry we made a huge mistake can we come and sit with the grown ups again.
Would the best bit of withdrawing be seeing farage go back to Brussels for the entire chamber to stand up as one and say "who's laughing now?"
And we want to have a second vote so more youngsters can vote, not trusting the vote of the people that have seen decades of EU activity and decided that they didn’t like it.
I'm sure you know very well that the EU has been made scapegoat by the far right for their own ends citing issues which are not of the making of the EU. As for "taking back control" - what for? To give it to this miserable mob we have presiding over the current shambles?
So, no hokey-cokey.
But it doesn't remove the right to trigger A50 again (afresh) from the member state. Revoke A50 and we can still kick of the process again in future… the EU can't stop is leaving. Let the A50 process complete now, and we hand all the power to the EU… we can't place demands how they act in any way… whether that be letting us rejoin or treating us any more favourably than any other third country.
binners
I’m just aghast and angry about low we have stooped. I’m not averse to people getting angry about their situation and taking positive steps to improve it.
What I can’t stand is people who just lash out at everyone and everything because they don’t like the way their lives are playing out despite living in a country where an adequate standard of living is pretty easy to attain. I know everything is not rosy, but by world standards we are wrapped in cotton wool.
Conversation 1.
Interviewer: So, resident of Brexitville, talk me through what life is like around here.
Brexitville Man: It’s shit round here. No one cares about us, the only jobs are taken by forriners, there’s nothing here and I hate living here.
Conversation 2 (same characters).
Interviewer: So, resident of Brexitville, this place is a depressing shithole, isn’t it?
Brexitville Man: You stuck up ****er. You come here from your posh house in London with your airs and graces and your (spits) multiculturalism and dare to slag off this town? You typical sneering liberal, this town was built on the backs of real workers, doing real jobs. Proper graft. None of your arty farty shit.
Insular, aggressive, defensive, petty, ignorant, arrogant, hypocritical. Our new defining characteristics.
I wish it wasn’t like this. There is so much to love about England, but these good aspects are not the ones we are going to be perceived by by others for the foreseeable future.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Yeah it’s not a negotiating tool, it’s a proper sorry we made a huge mistake can we come and sit with the grown ups again.</span>
Doubt they’d allow our Politicians back in, I mean who exactly wants to sit with the naughty kids at the back of the class?
Back in my day at school there were special classes for naughty kids, mostly it was detention.
Which is what I favour, ban all Conservatives from being MPs and holding any High Level Civil Service Job.
Morons.
hmm, watching parliament....these ****s are gonny hard brexit.. this vote of confidence was a terrible idea, it's just consolidated the tories in that direction.
Once the the tories and the DUP back her here, yesterdays vote will be forgotten and it's full steam ahead..
The present shambles perfectly articulated by Johnathon Pie. Very sweary, as you'd expect, but absolutely bang on!
What is everyone's preferred way forward then?
Igoring issued of actual acheivability for the momemt, I see several broad options
(1) Abandon Bexit - withdraw A50 - back as we were?
(2) 2nd ref with two (in or a deal variant) or 3 options (in, deal, no deal) and some sort of preference voting
(3) supersoft brexit - customs union, possible EEA and free movement (Norway plus plus)
(4). Medium brexit - basically tweaked May's deal or similar
(5) No deal
But (short of the issue of eventually you piss everyone off even more than we are now) I don't believe there's anything to say you can't trigger Article 50 again in the future. Just not the 'same' Article 50. There's no 'this is your one and only chance - if you don't leave now you can NEVER leave'; it just means that you can't unilaterally delay until you feel like picking this particular ball up again.
If we want to delay to get ducks lined up / reopen discussions on an amended set of principles / red lines, then we need the approval of the R27
If we want to revoke, we can do so without permission. If we then - in 2, 3, 5, 50, whatever years time decide to leave, we can with proper procedure trigger A50 again. But then EVERYTHING starts again, and while the 'deal' we have now might be a starting point or indicator of what a future deal might look like, in time different players will be in place both at the EU and member states of the EU, there will be different external factors, etc.
(1) Abandon Bexit – withdraw A50 – back as we were?
(2) 2nd ref with two (in or a deal variant)
Either will do
Dannyh your post sounds like this interview...
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1085501572925325313
'This country fought a war'
Jesus wept.
If there is a 3rd referendum I'm very concerned it will deliver the same result. I definitely would not be making predictions based on how I and my family/friends/colleagues might vote.
I think the only thing that could definitely swing the vote in Remains favour would be if a vast swathe of previous Brexit voters didn't bother voting in the 3rd referendum.
I would not underestimate how some (many) people view Westminster and the EU now and how they feel they've been completely deceived by both institutions. Go and spend some time on a pro Brexit forum, Pistonheads is a fine example. This STW thread is great but there is not a balanced debate here, its nearly all in favour of Remain.
Macron seems to speak sense... everyone who isn't British seems to talk sense...
https://twitter.com/euronews/status/1085548829217341440
But then EVERYTHING starts again, and while the ‘deal’ we have now might be a starting point or indicator of what a future deal might look like
The deal is not the necessary result of the leaving process, it's the result of May's red lines that she came up with on her own.
(1) Abandon Bexit – withdraw A50 – back as we were?
Cross-party statement that there is no acceptable way forward. That's what leadership means. Would make for interesting subsequent general elections, but so be it. We live in a representative democracy. My MP voted against as a die-hard brexiteer. At least he voted the way his constituents would have wanted, if not for the reasons!
1) Abandon Bexit – withdraw A50 – back as we were?
(2) 2nd ref with two (in or a deal variant)Either will do
Erm.
1) assumes that the current crop of morons go pleading on all fours kissing every EuroMPs left nipple at the same topic me apologising profusely.
There should be NO way this government should be let off any chaos they have caused.
I still prefer the method of treason being brought against LyingBloHard and Farage and IDS and Gove.
Quite how the British public believed a single word of these morons is frankly astonishing.
🤷♂️
Even if there was a general election next week, most of these numpties would be voted back in again. Those who don't will be replaced with a numpty of equal value from the same pool of available numpties.
The problem is that interview and what the Leaver said, is heard all too often. I've heard it in pubs, people I thought I actually knew have said similar to me. Even some family. If I hear "the war" mentioned one more bloody time I will go mad!
It's almost like the referendum released some highly contagious virus that has eaten it's way into millions of people's minds.
That BBC Wales interview - what a pair of peckerheads. One was broadly in the ‘right’, but they’re both peckerheads. Unless they were actors taking the piss, I can’t tell anymore.
If this is the raw material, we are ****ed.
What is everyone’s preferred way forward then?
1 by a few country miles
3 then 4
5 a long way back
2 only if nothing else is remotely possible. I think it likely to end up with hard brexit anyhow but manage to further damage our institutions lead to greater division.
Preferred way forward? Options? As in a lot of cases nowadays, its difficult to tell where the news stops and satire starts. Definitely so with todays Mash...
That BBC Wales clip sounds depressingly familar, complete with World War 2 references. Because we weren't occopied by zee germans 70 years ago (nothing to do with there being a sea between us) we're somehow the greatest nation on earth
There's part of me that thinks these pig ignorant ****s deserve everything they get. Turkeys voting for christmas indeed. Unfortunately they'll be taking the rest of us down with them
(2) 2nd ref with two (in or a deal variant) or 3 options (in, deal, no deal) and some sort of preference voting
If you have to rig the vote questions to ensure a majority for remain, then you are just poisoning the well further.
What if the result is 45% remain, 20% deal, 35% no deal?
If and when we have ref 2.0 it needs to be a clear majority for remain over all Brexit options combined, or we're back where we started. The only way I can see that happening is to obfuscate and extend A50 as long as possible so that the key demographics move further in the right direction, but of course, that carries several other risks. I imagine that any continuance of the uncertainty will have us in recession by the middle of 2020 anyhow.
So basically, it's an utter shitshow, and I can see no clear path to get out of it in one piece.
(1) is the logical way to go, has been for a long time, but I can't see any of our current crop of arseholes having the guts to sign up to that.
olddog
What is everyone’s preferred way forward then?
Scotland getting out of the UK.
Scotland getting out of the UK.
Better make it quick otherwise you'll be in the water without a lifeboat, same as the rest of us. It comes to something when just a couple of years after Scotland was being preached at that the economic risks were too great for independence, England just chucks everyone off a much bigger cliff.
Maybe its time to stop.
Hand in passports, cash in collateral apply for new citizenship with foster countries and once everyone is out they could slowly repopulate the country with people capable of actually functioning as a society.
Scotland getting out of the UK.
But I thought that was your solution to every single problem the world faces?
koldun
Member
Maybe its time to stop.
Hand in passports, cash in collateral apply for new citizenship with foster countries and once everyone is out they could slowly repopulate the country with people capable of actually functioning as a society.Posted 6 minutes ago
Doing that. As sad as it makes me feel, the UK has really badly let itself down with this shizzle. It actually makes me embarrassed and ashamed.
Scotland getting out of the UK.
The more this fiasco drags on the more I hope to myself for a no deal brexit so devastating it adds 15% to the Yes base vote and we GTFO.
imnotverygood
But I thought that was your solution to every single problem the world faces?
🙂
Just the problems that involve a govt with an unelected upper house and a monarchy.
It's normal for a country to want to run its own affairs rather than have their next door neighbour do it for them...
It’s normal for a country to want to run its own affairs rather than have their next door neighbour do it for them…
Not if your English right now. I would love the French to take over control of us at the moment.👍
ecpicyclo,
The thing is, it's not really being told what to do, it can still manage its own laws in a national context, it's just not doing it as much as it could. The UK is choosing to do things in line with EU legislation. I also have to admit that a lot of the laws make sense and are for the good of people living and working in the country. Like employment rights, water quality, food hygiene, etc, etc.
The monarchy thing is a bit of a red herring in this case too. The Queen has no real power and only really serves as a figurehead. You could argue that she would be independent of party politics and, if this were still a monarchy, would have made the best choice for the country, not a single political party.
the UK has really badly let itself down with this shizzle.
We might be the only ones daft enough to ask the general public but we're not alone by any stretch. Without brexit to open or eyes to the malcontent at home we'd be looking at the numbers returned by AFD in Germany, FN in France, PVV in Netherlands, what's going on in Hungary and so on with alarm. In terms of elected representatives we're actually pretty moderate so i dread to think what would happen if you gave much of Europe's populace the same chance.
Crikey look at Paris over petrol prices, imagine what a contested Frexit would look like.
Epicyclo, isn't the monarchy yours anyway since it was a Stuart who decided to unify the crowns and a Stuart who signed the acts of union? Really we're your subjugated neighbours not the other way around, it's just the weather is better in London and it's closer to France.
Looks like Jezza's confidence motion is predictably a non-event as the result is a foregone conclusion.
Best get used to it, I suppose. We can expectt 2 or 3 a week for the forceeble future
Erm.
1) assumes that the current crop of morons go pleading on all fours kissing every EuroMPs left nipple at the same topic me apologising profusely.
Not true. The UK can unilaterally revoke Article 50 and go back to exactly the same legal position it was in before invoking A50, including veto, rebates, etc. We will have burnt any/all goodwill, but we can recover to the same legal position.
Good luck getting any preferential treatment in future though!
willard
...The Queen has no real power and only really serves as a figurehead...
I used to believe that too. A nice cuddly mummy figure with our best interests at heart.
But I learned it was bollocks when I was living in Australia and the elected govt was dismissed by the Queen on 11th Nov 1975. Ever since then I have been anti-monarchist.
It’s normal for a country to want to run its own affairs rather than have their next door neighbour do it for them…
You mean the UK and Europe? Where like Scotland is part of the UK and is represented in the UK Parliament sonpart of the overall decision making process?
dangeourbrain
Epicyclo, isn’t the monarchy yours anyway since it was a Stuart who decided to unify the crowns and a Stuart who signed the acts of union?...
The Jacobites would claim last the legitimate Stuart was driven out of power by our Dutch conquerors in 1688.
Personally, I think Cromwell had the right idea for dealing with the Stuarts.
Looks like Jezza’s confidence motion is predictably a non-event as the result is a foregone conclusion.
Which just wastes another day.
Tick......tock.....
Crunch time soon. Going to have to tell the Brexies they were wrong and are going to be ignored for the purposes of this issue.
It is that or an economic and social catastrophe. It was always going to be this way, we could have made this decision a day after the referendum to be honest.
…The Queen has no real power and only really serves as a figurehead…
just by being queen she keeps the tories in power, as Sinn Fein refuse to take their seats being all republican and that.
But I learned it was bollocks when I was living in Australia and the elected govt was dismissed by the Queen on 11th Nov 1975. Ever since then I have been anti-monarchist.
Governor general did that, not the queen and whilst arguably poorly done it was too solve the sort of shutdown for which Trump's USA is now becoming well known.
Also technically he only *really* dismissed the PM from that role (which they occupy at the request of the Gov. Gen) and appointed another, Frazer, who passed the appropriations then requested to dissolve the Govt for an election of both houses, a request which was granted.
The Queen disolves our govt. in the same way, hence the pm going to buck house to request a GE, but hasn't really got the power to dismiss it though at this point i sort of wish she did.
Epicyclo
The Jacobites would claim last the legitimate Stuart was driven out of power by our Dutch conquerors in 1688.
Oh no, surely not the 17th century again.
It’s normal for a country to want to run its own affairs rather than have their next door neighbour do it for them…
Don't start this bollocks again. Scotland is part of the UK, and the UK manages its own affairs, therefore so does Scotland. End of story.
Now would be a great time for Argentina to grab back the Falkland islands..
Just to prove that we are pretty much a powerless gobby little nation. The EU would just us a big collective Gallic shrug and laugh.
Quite how the British public believed a single word of these morons is frankly astonishing.
Because, and I know we’re not meant to say it, massive swathes of the electorate are down right thick. A vast amount are ignorant. A vast amount simply don’t care or understand the issue in question
Just watching a gammon on TV literally jumping up and down on the spot...pointing at the floor saying....I don't want to be here in Europe....I'm unsure if he thinks leave means him being teleported to the land of milk and honey...
It was ****ing hilarious
Now would be a great time for Argentina to grab back the Falkland islands..
Just to prove that we are pretty much a powerless gobby little nation. The EU would just us a big collective Gallic shrug and laugh.
Ah yes, a few French built exocet missiles sinking some royal navy boats would be sure to help placate the europhobic masses too.
It's interesting to see from 2 years ago maybot at least looked human ..now she looks like a grey worn out shell
Kuenesburger is now admitting it's difficult to come up with new ways to say the exact same thing a different way
Because, and I know we’re not meant to say it, massive swathes of the electorate are down right thick. A vast amount are ignorant. A vast amount simply don’t care or understand the issue in question
I’m not quite sure why we’re not meant to say it. The gammons are the ones who bleat about freedom of speech the most at the moment, so they shouldn’t have a problem with it.
The reason people believe the lies is down to a 30 year anti eu propaganda campaign waged by a few non UK resident newspaper owners
waged by a few non UK resident newspaper owners
And both political parties when it's suited them
Nickc
I don't remember labour ever blaming the eu
Got an example?
Corbyn’s wasted another day! Hurray! Well done Jezza!
The head of the CBI is just on channel 4 news saying No Deal will be a catastrophe, and article 50 needs to be revoked if this isn’t sorted immediately, and the head of Ford is utterly scathing about this ‘shambles’ and a inability of Parliament to actually govern
Corbyn’s wasted another day! Hurray! Well done Jezza!
Were you not bashing him for not calling no confidence votes last week?
He would probably have won it in December, now that mays deal has been defeated, it allowed the DUP and ERG to line up behind her.
I was berating him for his last pointless no confidence vote in the prime minister, instead of the government, which he predictably lost, like today. He could have possibly won that one but he bottled it
One day he might actually do something useful, but I’ll not hold my breath
He’ll have at least one a week now, all of which he’ll lose. But he’ll waste a lot of Parliamenty time
There’s stuff at the bottom of my salad drawer with more political acumen
Corbyn’s wasted another day! Hurray! Well done Jezza!
He's following their procedure.
Were you not bashing him for not calling no confidence votes last week?
That was last week. You expect consistency?
I was berating him for his last pointless no confidence vote in the prime minister, instead of the government, which he predictably lost, like today. He could have possibly won that one but he bottled it
If he didn't win today he would not have won that one. He needed a proper tory revolt to happen. Roll on the next step, if you think Corbyn just wasted time take a look at the experts on the other side, they hold the power, set the timetable and make the rules.
I don’t remember labour ever blaming the eu
I'm not sure it's blaming but Labour has claimed the EU stops the British government providing aid to business and privatising which is clearly not the case as the government has helped a mass of companies who have provided inward investment with tax breaks and direct help, and bailed out banks by privatisation.
Google doesn't help much but as it's a case of trying to prove a negative... .
oh labour have played the "blame foreigners" game when it suits them, not nearly as much as the tories, but they have panderd to prejudice when they should have been fighting it, for their own political gains.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1553710/British-workers-for-British-jobs-says-Brown.html
Remarkable (and surprising) lucidity from Cameron at the end of that article.
Jeez. I’ve just seen Ruddy Amber being interviewed and it was painful like watching a pre-schooler trying to work out which lie to tell and when after the discovery of a broken vase.
Her little, little brain just cannot cope with trying to process what she wants to say against what she has to say and what she definitely can’t say.....unless someone else has already said it, in which case she might be able to hint at it. But only if she clears it first.
The Beeb correspondents are only just managing to keep a lid on their distain now, and it shows.
dangeourbrain
Governor general did that, not the queen and whilst arguably poorly done it was too solve the sort of shutdown for which Trump’s USA is now becoming well known.Also technically he only *really* dismissed the PM from that role (which they occupy at the request of the Gov. Gen) and appointed another, Frazer, who passed the appropriations then requested to dissolve the Govt for an election of both houses, a request which was granted...
The Governor-General is the Queen's representative and he consulted with her. He used her powers, he has none of his own to do that.
And dismissing a PM from a majority party and replacing him with the leader of the opposition party is hardly just a technicality.
The Queen may dissolve our govt in a similar manner because she is the one with power to do so, but here she does so by following the lead of parliament.
With the Brexit impasse looming, can you imagine the queen replacing Theresa May with Jeremy Corbyn without an election or prior approval of the majority of the house?
athgray
Oh no, surely not the 17th century again.
Don't blame me for that, dangeourbrain started it. 🙂
Vive la République !
There’s stuff at the bottom of my salad drawer with more political acumen
And that’s just the tip of the iceberg
Can we stop the puns already, 'cos you'll only have all the Romainers moaning about the thread being derailed by all these little gems.
That was last week. You expect consistency?
Nah they are consistent. Whatever Corbyn does is wrong. Really a fine example of the anti Corbyn cult who are about the only ones in modern politics who make the brexiteers (okay a lot of overlap here) and momentum look sensible and down to earth.
Not really a cult to point out that the totally useless bloke is actually totally ****ing useless. I think all but the most deluded Momentumite must be coming to that belated conclusion
We’re in a mess! And he has to shoulder a lot of the blame for that
There hasn’t been an opposition party worthy of the name for the last 3 years.
From going AWOL during the referendum onwards, all he’s done is facilitate Brexit for the Tories
It’s all he’s done today.
She ASKED him to table a vote of no confidence, he stupidly obliged, and she got the awkward squad to fall into line behind her. She had the arch-brexiteers and the remainders standing up to offer her support instead of disappearing into committee rooms to either plot against her or try and find a way out of this shitstorm
Clueless! Utterly clueless!
He’ll do the same again before next weeks out! Guaranteed! Put your house on it!