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When did Corbyn get so shouty? Just seen a clip of him calling for the no confidence vote.
Didn't may offer him that last night lol
The Tories smeared the libdems so hard for 2015. I still find it ironic that the libdem support collapsed over tuition fees, there really was nothing* Clegg could have done, they tempered the Tories big time, and managed to achieve some of the libdem agenda. It was the greatest achievement of any libdem leader ever. But all anyone remembers is the one broken promise. EVERY OTHER PARTY HAS BROKEN PROMISES EVERY ****ING TIME.
*OK - Clegg could have abandoned the coalition, but by then the Tory support was up, because look what happened in 2015. So quitting the coalition would have brought about tuition fees anyway - he was damned either way.
The biggest irony here is that the LibDems are so tainted with the toxicity of coalition with the Tories that their core support deserted them.
so tainted?? By comparison they are still whiter than white, rolling out the double/triple standards is a pointless exercise. What is done is done, move on people.
Sooooo...
May survives today’s vote. Then she goes back to Brussels and says ‘help’. The EU asks ‘how can we help’ and May basically asks for nothing new.
So what happens on Monday?
Parliament is paralysed in a feedback loop. The clock keeps running down and we inch closer to the abyss.
May will not resign. The party will not oust her. There will not be a GE. Tories will not call a 2nd ref or revoke A50. There is no plausible alternative ‘deal’ that a majority of Parliament will support.
Honestly, someone please explain how this ends in anything other than no deal?
Does anyone think she will resign?
I don't. There's something limpet about her.
they tempered the Tories big time, and managed to achieve some of the libdem agenda.
their pr might have suggested that but the reality was different, and all that spin had the effect of convincing the right leaning side of liberal vote to think lets cut out the middle man and vote tory instead and the left leaning not voting for tory light.
Honestly, someone please explain how this ends in anything other than no deal?
Maybe this?
If we hit deadlock then it's up to May to put something forward before the deadline, the options for parliament have to kick in.
So next up write to your MP, tell them what you want
It’s no good looking back, the only way is forward and how we get out of this mess. I think it’s fair to say that never in the history of these islands, have so many people been so divided on a relatively simple subject. You only need to wstch a Reporter interviewing a few people in a gym in Leeds to see the situation is unsolvable.
We don’t know if anyone else could or would extract a better deal from the eu, it’s just total speculation. As for another vote, what if it’s the same result? This will just be extended and nothing will have changed by the next decision date. Total mess!
Honestly, someone please explain how this ends in anything other than no deal?
There's no parliamentary majority for no deal, so it's going to be a re-hash of May's deal (although it seems like the deal is the deal currently) or revoke A50/No Brexit.
Honestly, someone please explain how this ends in anything other than no deal?
Only other majority in parliament is for stopping no deal, which means
Revoking A50 - but the gammon will explode, no one wants to own that
GE & extension of a50, possible but even DUP & ERG aren't that stupid
Extension of a50 & 2nd ref unlikely as Corbyn won't back it
May at some point conceding that her red lines have to go & allowing MPs to vote on series motions until end up with Norway type deal
I think the last is most likely, but since Mogg shot his bolt too early May can't be deposed & it relies on her backing down.....
So Corbyn's job is to come up with a fully fledged plan acceptable to the EU, the ERG, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all. That makes sense.
We don’t know if anyone else could or would extract a better deal from the eu,
I think we do
With the same weak hand, faced by the same organised & unified front & same skilled negotiators we'd be on the back foot regardless
This gives you an idea of the state of my MP. Anyone else I can write to?
“I have coined the phrase ‘a clean global Brexit’ instead of ‘crashing out’ (to describe trading on WTO terms).
“Wouldn’t it be refreshing to hear this term being used – yes, even by the BBC!
I'm going to invest in Fudge as there will be plenty of it needed at Westminster soon.
Revoking A50 – but the gammon will explode, no one wants to own that
I'd own that with both hands quite happily ...
May at some point conceding that her red lines have to go & allowing MPs to vote on series motions until end up with Norway type deal
This seems possible at the moment. The vote passes, but relies heavily on opposition support, possibly with the majority of the Tory benches voting against it. Michael Gove will think about resigning again but will either back down again, or mess up the timing and end up with egg on his face again.
So Corbyn’s job is to come up with a fully fledged plan acceptable to the EU, the ERG, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all. That makes sense.
A realistic policy of any description would maybe be nice at this point in proceedings.
According to the Daily Mirror journalist who's spoken to Corbyns inner sanctum, he's locked himself in his bunker to, in her words: 'work things out for himself' as to Labours next step
So much for 'listening to the membership?
May and Corbyn are exactly the same! A pair of stubborn idiots, totally devoid of pragmatism, who consult nobody and have no interest in anyones opinion but their own! They just fervently believe that they're right and everyone else is wrong and bulldoze on despite all evidence showing it will lead to disaster
And we're all being held hostage to the will of this pair of clowns!
Honestly, someone please explain how this ends in anything other than no deal?
It's a fear of mine, I'll be honest.
The first answer is that she can't go back with nothing new, she has to consult across the house and give up some of her red lines to enable the EU to come back with some compromises of their own. Then she can deliver the Brexit that 17.4M voted for even if it isn't really the Brexit anyone wanted (BINO / supersoft / call it what you will). Might also need a bit more time for the mechanics, but that can be presented as not a 'delay' - rather it's an extension to dot i's and cross t's.
If she doesn't them move to part II below, at which point she'll have to do that anyway
In the event she doesn't start to negotiate properly with them I see a couple of pressure relief valves.
1/ The EU is already signalling willingness to extend to avoid the abyss of no-deal which will serve no-one any good apart from the few multi-millionaire hedge fund bastards. If May and the Cabinet to allow us to go off the abyss, against the will of pretty much the whole of the business community, the ensuing mess will make the LibDem tuition fee toxicity look like nothing. They have to see this and pull back from the brink.
2/ In the event that they don't and plough ahead regardless we can have a no-confidence motion on a daily basis if we want, and my hope is there are enough moderates in parliament that eventually a NC vote can be successful which will inevitably lead to a delay being sought and granted while the shenanigans are sorted out.
In the event of II-2 however - who then is able to command a majority and restart the talks is another fear. Does it result ultimately in another GE - not necessarily but if it does, with our FPTP system, and potentially a hard right leader replacing May..... I have no idea how that would play; could be a Johnson or Rees-Mogg led increased majority. Could be the schism that splits the tory party and creates a new era of coalition politics. It avoids the 29.3 no deal crash out but what in return?
Norway type deal now with a pledge for a propertional representation referendum again in 5 years.
We shouldn't stay in the EU as we do not have the same political aspirations as the other 27 countries (same could be said for most of the other members) and we do not want to switch to the Euro.
In those 5 years take other measures to show that we 'have more control', like
- identity cards which nearly all countries in the EU have.
- monitor the costs of health tourism and other impacts of immigration so they can be shown to be a non-issue. If necessary offset these costs against the foriegn aid budget to keep the moaners in check.
- rapidly build up infrastructure (doctors/hospitals/etc) to cope with the effects of immigration.
- invest in building up industry in the midlands/north to balance the properity of the south.
- clamp down on companies exploiting cheap european labour to the expense of local labour.
- clamp down on the exploitation of zero hour contracts and other poor working conditions
this will probably mean tax increases but these can be offset against the loss of properity (at least short term) caused by brexit
- plan for how a non-hard but not open irish border would work in case the next referendum votes out
As far as I can tell we can do all of that (apart from your Irish border unicorns) without leaving the EU.
So why leave? Then we wouldn't need the Irish border unicorns.
Haha....that's hilarious TG!
We shouldn’t stay in the EU as we do not have the same political aspirations as the other 27 countries (same could be said for most of the other members) and we do not want to switch to the Euro.
I'm not sure about you or the rest of the 52% but I'm pretty sure i share the political aspirations of increased individual freedom and protection in a way which strengthens legitimate government, encourages debate and tolerance whilst working towards a society where integration, equality and freedom are the paramount objectives with much of the world not just the EU.
They're aspirations mind, not promises or even attainable goals but you know, hopes and dreams.
Of course your aspirations might be different but I'd appreciate if you'd not lump the rest of us in with your desire to march proudly back to the 17th century.
We shouldn’t stay in the EU as we do not have the same political aspirations as the other 27 countries
And by "We" you presumably mean you? The rest of your comments are just typical brexiter ignorance. The UK has a lot more control than brexiters seem to realise and can do a lot of things already if the UK we bothered.
Surely the only option is now to revoke article 50.
Leave won the referendum, TM went to get a deal, they were then shown the deal, no one liked it. So as we were then.
https://twitter.com/jamesmelville/status/960580026176606213
On Twitter last night..
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en-gb"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If a deal is impossible, and no one wants no deal, then who will finally have the courage to say what the only positive solution is?</p>— Donald Tusk (@eucopresident) <a href=" https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1085260488903090176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">15 January 2019</a></blockquote>
https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js edit. so how do you embed twitter?
– identity cards which nearly all countries in the EU have.
why dont we have those?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1482904/Howard-backs-down-over-ID-card-support.html
Surely the only option is now to revoke article 50.
Leave won the referendum, TM went to get a deal, they were then shown the deal, no one liked it. So as we were then.
That is how I see it but there is the option of no deal as a way to leave. That really needs to be legally ruled out and then A50 can be revoked. No Deal should have been ruled out from day 1 but that clearly didn't fit with "No deal is better than a bad deal"
Instead we get him calling a no confidence vote eveyone knows he’ll lose
???
Before christmas everyone was criticising Corbyn for not calling a no confidence vote. I'm bloody confused.
edit. so how do you embed twitter?
Just click the tweet & copy the URL...
https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1085260488903090176
In the nicest possible way I wish the EU guys wouldn't do that.
He's right, of course, but we need the idiots to work it out for themselves, otherwise "they" are once again telling "us" what to do.
Compare:
monitor the costs of health tourism and other impacts of immigration so they can be shown to be a non-issue...
...invest in building up industry in the midlands/north to balance the properity of the south...
...clamp down on the exploitation of zero hour contracts and other poor working conditions...
with:
I’d appreciate if you’d not lump the rest of us in with your desire to march proudly back to the 17th century
and:
And by “We” you presumably mean you? The rest of your comments are just typical brexiter ignorance
and then get back to me with a coherent argument about how these points are either a) a 400-year setback or b) typical brexiter ignorance. Or did you just not read past "We shouldn’t stay in the EU" and revert to the bullet pointed soundbite shouting match that has served both sides so well over the last couple of years.
dazh
Before christmas everyone was criticising Corbyn for not calling a no confidence vote. I’m bloody confused.
the crticism was more that he wasnt backing a peoples vote
thats still the crticism
Before christmas everyone was criticising Corbyn for not calling a no confidence vote. I’m bloody confused.
I think people were criticising Jeremy for more than that. He has done too little for too long.
Do you think Jeremy will win his No Confidence vote?
Mays genius strategy was to threaten that No Deal was a realistic option, whereas everyone knew that you'd have to absolutely out of your mind to even threaten it.
Now, through her continued utter incompetence, this wet dream of the hard right ultra-free marketeers is exactly where we're headed.
Its is now the legal default position and the law will have to be changed to prevent it. Do you think that all those hard brexiteer loons with their attack dogs in the press are going to let that happen easily? Of course they're not! They'll fight to the death to let this run its course and for us to crash out
My fear is that things are going to get genuinelly nasty now. I think that the Brexiteers in the Tory party and the press in this country are now so unhinged in their desire for Bexit at any cost that we could see something we've never seen in this country before: the 'Estblishment' starting to co-operate, tacitly or otherwise, with the far right Tommy Robinson/EDL supporters. Or at the very least acting as apoligists for them, which Chris Grayling has done already
I can see it coming. I think we're heading towards somewwhere really, really scary, and that the whole Jo Cox thing was a precurser for something a lot bigger: the emergence of a truly emboldened far right. Emboldened because their goals are the same as the right wing of the party presently in government, who I fear are on the verge of lending them their support, merly because they're absolute zealots who would just see it as a means to an end.
Everythign the Brexiteers have done thus far proves that they really are that mental!
I think people were criticising Jeremy for more than that. He has done too little for too long.
He's biding his time... He'll strike a decisive blow, sometime within the next 10-15 years...
In the nicest possible way I wish the EU guys wouldn’t do that.
He’s right, of course, but we need the idiots to work it out for themselves, otherwise “they” are once again telling “us” what to do.
Agreed. It just gives the Heil something else to get their mucky little claws into. The bottom line is that we are doing this to ourselves. Entirely. We’ve built our own gallows and even supplied our own rope.
How can so many idiots still think there can be such a thing as a ‘good Brexit’? It is a total contradiction in terms. There is no such thing as a good Brexit because Brexit is inherently bad. A bad idea born of a bad attitude and a bad (criminal) campaign. There is no redeeming quality to any of this no matter how obscure and how hard you look.
Nothing else is getting done. It is a disgrace and a stain on our nation that cannot be erased.
Civil war awaits - to the barricades comrades!
(I mean, I'm a bit old for the proper battle against the younger factions, but I'm more than happy to take on a gammon faced pensioner if anyone thinks it'll help)
Taulpaul
Honestly, someone please explain how this ends in anything other than no deal?
The obvious way for the govt to get the numbers for the Brexit that England and Wales want is to kick NI and Scotland out of the UK.
The Scots are willing to help in the process of their exit from the UK - the First Minister is in London right now...
Otherwise they're going to need a GE or another Brexit ref. Suspending or revoking Article 50 is also possible.
That would not be attractive to the billionaires who fund the Tory party and who supplied the dark money to the Leave campaign to protect their tax evasion sanctuaries. Those same billionaires have an inordinate amount of control over the UK's mass media.
They need the UK out of the EU before the deadline of 1st April when the EU measures against tax evasion take effect. That's why the Brexiteers seem "mental", they're under extreme pressure from their donors and time is running out.
As for "taking back control" from the EU, anyone seen the DUP statement that they have given the PM "very clear instructions"?
There was a Tory MP being interviewed on the BBC news there saying that Parliament had to support the Government on the No Confidence Vote because Labour did not have a clear policy on Europe and Brexit....
Thought this was a good comment on the Guardian today; I know Merkel shouldn't have to step up, but it would be good!
Ok, now is the time. Step up Mrs Merkel.
This is her time to rescue the EU and the UK and cement her reputation for posterity.
What about:
We need you, the UK, in the EU. We want you to stay.
We can offer a 10 year window when labour movement to the UK will be restricted to those who have confirmed jobs and certain essential skills and roles.
We also suggest that to support this a qualifying period of 2 years residence is needed for qualification for any social security - both ways - UK citizens to EU and EU citizens to UK.In exchange, we suggest you hold a fresh referendum on the basis of staying with the above deal or continuing to leave.
If acceptable, deal to be finalised as soon as possible, and by 29/3 and to be legally binding on any future governments for 10 years.
Why this deal? It covers the area that upset so many people - immigration and burden on infrastructure.
Benefits - should satisfy both leavers and remainers. Takes away the Scottish referendum threat, gives UK a fresh vote with meaningful choices (stay with better terms, leave on no deal basis), helps EU and especially Germany with its threat of a manufacturing recession.
And finally, would enable me to take pride in UK, where, currently, our MPs cause me massive embarrassment.
Come on - step up Mrs Merkel and put Mrs May out of her misery.
I think people were criticising Jeremy for more than that. He has done too little for too long.
And so we're back to the 'what would you have him do?' question. As far as I can see, what he's doing is implementing labour party policy to the letter. He's now called a no confidence vote as the policy dictates. The big question is what he does next, and he will be under intense pressure to back a new referendum. He'll probably try other avenues first, but when they fail, as they surely will, he'll have very little option but to propose a new referendum. Then the ball will be in May's court.
and then get back to me with a coherent argument about how these points are either a) a 400-year setback or b) typical brexiter ignorance.
Did you skip the bit we both quoted and replied to then?
You really can't take half a line in TGs post out of context then complain we took a single point out of context but hey. Here we go then...
monitor the costs of health tourism and other impacts of immigration so they can be shown to be a non-issue…
[On the basis that TG isn't (i think) advocating a return to a paid for health service not provided free at point of need - which may not be a fair asumption]
Health tourism suggests that your need and your entitlement to treatment is predominantly determined by accident of birth. That you should be automatically entitled to treatment by virtue of "being British" irrespective of your contribution to the service upon which you place demand, that you have no innate right to treatment and health as a human being only by virtue of finance (largely derivative of where and to whom you happen to be born) or birth. So yes it's a throw back.
People traveling to take advantage of the NHS isn't a problem of costs to the NHS it's a problem other health services are poor or existant that we persist in deriving the worth of people from skin colour, sex, age and location.
Odd that the DM gets ratty about postcode lottery in the NHS but not about people dying of preventable disease in Sierra Leone don't you think?
That eternal dimwit Andrea Leadsom said this morning on Radio 4
“The PM will be engaging right across the house with people … who want to talk constructively,” she said.
Number 10 has just confirmed this will not involve Jeremy Corbyn, the labour front bench or any other party leaders (apart from the DUP, obvs!). How are these 'cross-party' talks then? Or engaging with anyone?
You really do have to despair at the carry on from the lot of them
We shouldn’t stay in the EU as we do not have the same political aspirations as the other 27 countries (same could be said for most of the other members) and we do not want to switch to the Euro.
I’d always though that the political aims of the EU were to move to closer and closer integration, complete with unified currency and taxation systems.
Always seemed like a good idea to me, but obviously not to the 52% and may-be not to many of the 48% either.
In this context TurnerGuy’s statement makes sense. The UK as a nation is not fit to be in the EU, so what can we do instead?
But you can’t possibly explore this because the debate on here has become too personal and too nasty.
“The PM will be engaging right across the house with people … who want to talk constructively,” she said.
“The PM will be engaging right across the house with people … who agree with her,” she meant.
somewhatslightlydazed
I’d always though that the political aims of the EU were to move to closer and closer integration, complete with unified currency and taxation systems.
Always seemed like a good idea to me, but obviously not to the 52% and may-be not to many of the 48% either.
In this context TurnerGuy’s statement makes sense. The UK as a nation is not fit to be in the EU, so what can we do instead?
But you can’t possibly explore this because the debate on here has become too personal and too nasty.
thats because its a brexiteer myth & ignores the reality of the EU
further integration requires ratification by all member states
Ask Salvini if he will vote for that or Moraweicki or any British PM or Macron or Merkel if theyd get away with that at home?
& we always had a veto over these things, in case you hadnt noticed were out of schengen, dont have the €, even get a rebate on the CAP
if you want to argue this isnt so, please feel free to
who want to talk constructively,
Well that does rule out the labour leadership whose sole purpose so far has been the furtherance of the PLP. Sturgeon whose approach is what about Scotland why aren't we being treated differently the rest of you can go hang whilst i agitate for independence. The lib dems whose approach is nope call it all off (right answer maybe but not exactly constructive).
Who else then is left in terms of party leadership?
who agree with her,
Does anyone? Including herself.
WTF should anyone in Europe feel they have to get us out of this mess?
It's entirely of the UK's making, primarily build on a fabrication of mistruth - if anything the EU have done more to create investment in infrastructure in anywhere outside the South East.
Austerity and the utter failure of the last few Governments to invest in social housing, skills and services and instead people voted for tax cuts.
Lax UK employment policy and legislation has allowed zero hours contracts and the import of labour rather than forcing employers to invest in their workforce.
thats because its a brexiteer myth & ignores the reality of the EU
ever closer union is an aim of the EU - there's no argueing against it.
that might possibly be possible with the original member states but no we have 27 and their political agendas are too different.
I've just been on a cruise and there were lots of older brexiter types from Manchester/Liverpool area. So some of my comments are based on arguments with them.
I suggested that if we could monitor and cost up the actual cost of NHS 'tourism' then we would be able to argue against all those ignorant brexiters that think it is a major problem, proving that it is in fact a small amount.
And if we offset that small amount against the overseas aid budget that would quieten another lot of them, as they think that budget is a big issue as well.
We do know the cost of health tourism and it's peanuts. There are procedures to get money from people who are due to pay
Emergency care is free for anyone on these islands. Elective treatment is chargeable.
It's effectively another moral panic cooked up by racists
Tell the lazy, ignorant bigoted ****s to look it up for themselves. The cost to the NHS from treating non-UK residents is 0.3% of its total budget.
All the information anyone could possibly want on the cost/impact to the UK from imigration is already collated and reported. It’s **** all, in fact, it’s a net benefit. This was all in the public domain pre-referendum and discuss ad-nauseam post-referendum!
Pandering to morons will not change their deep seated beliefs. They’ll just reference a new load of bollocks to justify their prejudice.
I’d always though that the political aims of the EU were to move to closer and closer integration, complete with unified currency and taxation systems.
Ever closer union is indeed one of the stated aims of the EU, the purpose and method of achieving that though is essentially through the implementation of equal rights under the law, equal representation equal "burden", equal and improved welfare, wealth and earning potential and essentially the homogenization of Europe under the "best" bits of individual national policies as they slowly move towards a single "state" entity with consistently high standards of health wealth and well-being.
Without a single overarching currency and court system it's difficult to "forcibly" improve a lot of those things, especially in the less affluent member states. The euro shift has of course hit those states hardest as a result of significant inflation but that's relatively short term and wage inflation should outstrip it in the medium term and pull up standards of living and they like with it.
So some of my comments are based on arguments with them.
Fair do, I'd like to think they're in minority though and certainly not representative of the whole (even if it is just me) and I'm really not keen on being lumped with them.
Everyone's overthinking this...its really quite simple! TM is going to gather together a bunch of people who will all help her come up with an alternative plan and then once that is finally approved, she will go to the eu who will refuse to negotiate it.
I think 'flogging a dead horse' covers it!
an alternative plan
There's a part of me that really wishes that plan is send Corbyn and his team to Brussels with 18 months to come up with a deal, just to see the look on his face when she said "the plans of the government haven't been accepted, it's time for the opposition to do it's job and provide a viable alternative."
Never happen for various obvious reasons but the mental image of Corbyn doing a passable impression of Dianne Abbott is the one thing that's helping me through this.
Don't the EU have some sort of thing similar to OFSTEDs 'special measures' thing? Where they give us some more money, and a really good leader to try and sort everything out until we can look after ourselves as we clearly can't be trusted to now? Is that not an option?
Tell the lazy, ignorant bigoted * to look it up for themselves. The cost to the NHS from treating non-UK residents is 0.3% of its total budget.All the information anyone could possibly want on the cost/impact to the UK from imigration is already collated and reported. It’s
* all, in fact, it’s a net benefit. This was all in the public domain pre-referendum and discuss ad-nauseam post-referendum!Pandering to morons will not change their deep seated beliefs. They’ll just reference a new load of bollocks to justify their prejudice.
well don't give them a referendum then...
They are not going to look it up themselves - this information needs to be rammed down their throats - as was apparent from the start and basically the remain campaigners are as incompetant as the leave ones.
I went to see a band at the weekend and one of the people was a young (23ish?) girl who, when some mention of brexit came up, said she didn't want to know about it and was sick of people talking about it all the time, but later it turned out she believed in the Illuminati - obviously influenced by pop culture and gossip.
And we want to have a second vote so more youngsters can vote, not trusting the vote of the people that have seen decades of EU activity and decided that they didn't like it.
???
So weird that so many Brits still think that other European countries want anything other than to keep their own national identities, cultures and sovereignty. Speak to any French, Italian, German… any one, from any of our partner countries… working together to improve all our lives, and multiply our strength on the global stage, is nothing to do with doing away with nations and what their populations hold dear.
Speak to any French, Italian, German… any one, from any of our partner countries…
'They all hate us though, as we've been at war with all of them at some point in history'
- My father (born in 1952) who, when it was pointed out that there had been no war between members since the EU/its variants were formed and soon to be living memory, said 'give it more time'.
basically the remain campaigners are as incompetant as the leave ones.
Well that's plain wrong 😉 The remain campaign was naive and incompetent in possibly equal measure, but of all the criticisms you might have of the leave campaign those aren't two things you could honestly accuse it of, it was shrewd calculated and well executed. Heck that's the reason why we're all complaining about Cambridge Analytica and so on
And we want to have a second vote so more youngsters can vote, not trusting the vote of the people that have seen decades of EU activity and decided that they didn’t like it.
indeed, assuming the young will be or saviours is possibly not the wisest of things but at least they will have to live with the upshot of their decision.
As for having "seen" decades of the EU i think that's very much the biggest stumbling block of the remain campaign, the only things we've by and large seen are the downsides (or at least the things the press want to whine about) the positives and day to day no-one sees or has any real grasp of - a lot like our own government and state institutions - essentially you've 30 years of bad press to overcome in the length of 1 referendum campaign. Take the 350 million, we send that to the eu leaving means we won't*. That's easy to convey on the side of a bus, what that money does, how much comes back where it's "found" etc is dull and long winded and, by and large, people don't know or care, whichever side of the argument they're on.
– My father (born in 1952) who, when it was pointed out that there had been no war since the EU/its variants were formed and soon to be living memory, said ‘give it more time’.
Arguably more about the economic impact of war, the existence of the Soviet bloc, they creation of NATO, the UN, nuclear weapons, collective memory of ww2 and the cold war in general, at least in the 40s and 50s, than any specific impact of the coal and steel community which became the EU. (though the primary purpose of the creation of that was to make war between France and Germany impossible)
I’d always though that the political aims of the EU were to move to closer and closer integration, complete with unified currency and taxation systems.
And to think way back when in this thread I think I hoped that a strong remain vote would have been the catalyst for a push to proper integration and acceptance of the EU, a way to get rid of the sceptics and move on with the inevitable fact that the world will have less borders in the future.
PMQ's appears to be opening the door for an application to extend A50, we must have crashed through several key must be sorted by dates already, more are going to be crashed through in the next few weeks.
Will there be an amendment posted to remove the chance of no deal? If anyone wants to force the process that step must be put in place.
dangeourbrain
...Sturgeon whose approach is what about Scotland why aren’t we being treated differently...
Perfectly legitimate considering Scotland voted overwhelming to stay in the EU, and the govt has set the precedent for being treated differently with NI and the DUP.
A simple solution to the backstop issue would be NI and Scotland remaining in the EU so the hard border would be on the mainland and would be shorter and much easier to maintain than one in NI. It would also remove the potential for another civil war in NI.
There is precedent in the EU for such a solution.
(It might also weaken the support for independence, and for that reason, I wouldn't like to see it happen.)
You don't have to look too far back in history to find that division created by religion, bigotry, racism and isolation is what starts conflict. You only have to look at the "little englanders" who've probably never been to the corners of the UK, been abroad much beyond the English bars in Benidorm or on a cruise with 2,000 other fetid pink people and realise this is the Brexiteer rump.
To belief that a plebiscite founded on lies, misinformation and foreign influence that didn't even represent a numerical majority of the population and is somehow sacrosanct is the first myth that needs to be busted - we're voting for our future, not to preserve the bigotry of a million dead people.
"I can't under stand why they can't just get on with it."
I see Sterling did a wee “bounce” after the vote, against the Euro.
If we could have another 12mths of pissing about by this current bunch of retarded incumbents we could just achieve parity with the Euro, then go for full adoption of it and that’ll be the end of this Conservative led fiasco.
👍🤯
“I can’t under stand why they can’t just get on with it.”
And "brexit? Bored of all this crap"
From somebody who sells stuff in and out of Europe....
Well that does rule out the labour leadership whose sole purpose so far has been the furtherance of the PLP
Hardly, since Corbyn even offered to talk to May in his conference speech. Instead of accepting that invitation the Tories responded with Binners-esque blether about Marxists and other reds under the bed.
A simple solution to the backstop issue would be NI and Scotland remaining in the EU so the hard border would be on the mainland and would be shorter and much easier to maintain than one in NI. It would also remove the potential for another civil war in NI.
Only simple if all trade between the mainland and NI is routed via Scotland and i can't see a "hard border" at Berwick being any more acceptable to most people (especially without independent Scotland) though admittedly it wouldn't suffer the legal encumberance of the GFA, but i imagine it would be met with the same disdain from unionists as NI being alone in being different, I'd expect it to push us back towards "troubles" not away to implement anything which sees BT1 treated differently to NW1, though London alsovoted remain if memory serves...
Perfectly legitimate considering Scotland voted overwhelming to stay in the EU
Can't say i agree but that's likely more to do with my opinion on devolution and yours differing than anything else. Regardless of the validity of [SNP] standpoint though it's far from constructive in the scheme of UK wide politics.
Hardly, since Corbyn even offered to talk to May in his conference speech
Would that be the same speech which saw the adoption of a policy of have no policy and push for a GE off the back of the government's failure to meet our sisphean tests?
(On the subject of which, isn't lab. policy all options must remain on the table yet Corbyn was fairly clear yesterday that no deal needs to be taken off the table? What fate ref2 etc when it looks like they're unpopular)
No - Labour's wishlist has been clear for ages. But it crosses Maybot's red lines on eg customs union so she has dismissed it. Labour has one starting point - maybe unicorns, but an improvement on the Tories 2 diametrically opposed positions
"Labour's Wishlist" contains contradictions just as big as the ones in May's list of 2017. Same nonsense, just 2 years behind, because it hasn't been exposed to reality yet.
Hardly, since Corbyn even offered to talk to May in his conference speech.
She's just omitted him from cross party talks...
There's a reason she's scared of a people's vote
Red unicorns instead of blue?
Brilliant! Just what we need right now! Corbyns policy, such as it is, is as cakist as Boris Johnsons ever was. He wants to remain part of A customs union, but not THE customs union, to retain tariff-free access to the single market, without being a member of the single market, and end freedom of Movement.
I'd like Manchester United to win the Premiership, the Champions League and FA Cup this season
Both are about as likely to happen. You'd have to be a total imbecile to think that Corbyns 'policy' has a single shred of credibility. Which is why he's 6 points behind even a government as totally shambolic as this. Quite some achievement
He'd be laughed out of Brussells 5 minutes after getting off the plane. You're not going to get the EU to do away with their '4 Freedoms are indivisable' just because you've got a beard. Face reality.... if Corbyn had been in charge, we'd be exactly where we are now, except he'd probably have declared Marshall Law, or something
He knows all this, but he's a Brexiteer, despite what the more hopelessly gullible sixth-former would have you believe, so what do you expect?
Ultimately the "UK" needs to make a decision over freedom of movement of workers. If "it" sticks with the idea that it must end, and that is the shared policy of the leaders of the two main parties, it can not expect a close relationship with the EU&EEA, and must except the damage to our industries that will come from losing that.
Labour has one starting point – maybe unicorns, but an improvement on the Tories 2 diametrically opposed positions
I can't disagree that the Tory parties attempt to achieve an all the people all the time solution is both stupid and impossible but not can I pretend that I find the pursuit of another impossible alternative any better because it is still two diametrically opposed positions, it's just one of those is the position of the labour party and the other is that of the EU. It's back to the nonsense idea that the EU needs us more than we need them that got us here in the first place.
Labour's unicorn isn't better or worse - as above they're just different colour unicorns from one party to the next - until someone, anyone, realises they can win if they enter a two legged donkey in this race, we're all suffering.
A simple solution to the backstop issue would be NI and Scotland remaining in the EU so the hard border would be on the mainland and would be shorter and much easier to maintain than one in NI. It would also remove the potential for another civil war in NI.
I think it might actually start another civil war. I don't think the republicans were the only ones with guns and bombs were they?
dangeourbrain
...Only simple if all trade between the mainland and NI is routed via Scotland and i can’t see a “hard border” at Berwick being any more acceptable to most people (especially without independent Scotland)...
It would not be popular on many fronts, but I doubt it would result in NI conflict because the border would be between England and Scotland and not in Ireland. It does have the advantage that it is something the EU is likely to accept and removes the backstop predicament.
We're falling off the cliff now, and there's no easy landing, our magical Brexit wings have fallen off. Our choice is the rocks or the slightly softer looking sand.
Regardless of the validity of [SNP] standpoint though it’s far from constructive in the scheme of UK wide politics.
The job of the SNP is to be deconstructive. However the last thing an independent Scotland wants is England in economic straits, so current SNP tactics seem to be to try and mitigate the damage that Brexit does, and preferably go for a new referendum on it even though that may damage our push for independence.
There’s no point in wishing for the Europeans coming to our rescue, although I would welcome it. It won’t work for a multitude of reasons. A couple would be:
1) This really isn’t their problem. They aren’t aggressively saying that, it is a fact. We’re kicking them in the balls, telling them we hate them and are going to set ourselves up in competition with them. And we expect them to help us do it. Beggars belief.
2) It wouldn’t matter if Merkel rocked up with a tax free grand for every man, woman and child. Too many people see Europe as the enemy. Incredible, isn’t it?
We are like the chav family who are forever kicking off at each other, ruining occasions for other people who are just sick and tired of us. But should one of those ‘outsiders’ try to intervene with common sense, we would briefly unite to send them packing with a bloody nose. Then almost immediately go back to bickering and fighting amongst ourselves.
This collective willful ignorance and random thuggishness is now a defining characteristic of our national.
National dress? Kilt? Beefeater? Nope, grey fabric trackies and black trainers. Can’t be arsed to dress up.
National food? Roast beef? Fish and chips? Chicken Tikka? Nope. Super noodles and a wagon wheel. Can’t be arsed to cook, and these are quick and cheap. Never mind that we spend the next day moaning about not feeling fit and having a ‘shit life’.
National drink? Tea? Beer? Nope. An energy drink as we have to stay awake for Jeremy Kyle after being up all night playing Call of Duty on our £400 games console and only ever eating super noodles. Although we didn’t pay ‘full price’ for the X box as we got it off a mate who we occasionally see in the flat-roofed pub (which is actually a gigantic clearing house for stolen goods).
I’m quite cross.