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"iamtheresurrection
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Agreed. Blair/Cameron stage right with a new moderate party out of the ashes. "
Cameron! "Hi everyone, this is all my fault, now vote for me!"
Bercow!
Outstanding performance.
Brilliant!!
Entertaining for some maybe but our company does a lot of trade with Europe so we might have to make layoffs if we suddenly lose 20% of our business. Probably start with the warehouse staff who voted for Brexit – not that they had any idea what they were voting for, generally they just wanted to poke the establishment in the eye.
We’re all going to pay for this fiasco in one way or another. The lowest price is a bit of overdue national humble pie eating. So a few gammons will have their nose put out of joint, but never mind.
Want to see how your MP voted?
Mine was in the minority! Lol
Mine voted for May's deal, compleat shitbucket that he is.
I hopeTusk hasn’t overplayed his hand there. The key is to let idiots make themselves look stupid with no help.
Oh, look, here’s Chris Failing.
Surely bojo will still want the job tho...even for 5 mins
Grayling sounds like he’s been on the piss!
Which is unlikely as someone asked him to organize the post-vote pissup.
Hillary Benn and others are talking about EEA membership. Is that the same as the Norway deal that we can’t have?
If we can have it how does it differ to what we have and would Corbyn go for it?
Well if there is a snap election, we really need some good independent pro EU candidates for many constituencies, there must be a good shout of dislodging an incumbent if you are the right fit - ie a remain tory in a safe tory seat or vice versa for labour seats, promise to go with the party on everything bar brexit.
Northwind
Cameron! “Hi everyone, this is all my fault, now vote for me!”
I get that, I’m not saying he’s my choice.
Most of those I know would consider Blair/Cameron’s politics moderate. Again, I’m not saying they are, just that’s the view of the majority of people I know. They are crying out for somebody to get behind, and there’s nobody in either party currently that they think ticks that box.
Didn’t the ref come about as a throwback to the Cameron/Clegg era?
There are a lot of people on this thread that know so much more than me about politics (that’s not hard). Like it or not, I think that’s the same for the majority of the electorate.
My MP is John McDonnell... Not much point in looking.
Going to be a close vote tomorrow. Even though the prediction is the Government will win the confidence vote I won't be betting on it.
just do another referendum, with proper choices and make voting compulsory.
How, after that utterly humiliating dismissal of the results of her one reason for being in power … did May still look like she was ready to crack on with the job (that she can't do) … where as Corbyn was just cringeworthy at the dispatch box. Perhaps he is up to the job, and it's just a presentation problem… but he not only left me cold, but my instant reaction was "please god no"… and I voted Labour at the last General Election.
Didn’t the ref come about as a throwback to the Cameron/Clegg era?
Cameron did the referendum because he thought it would unite the tories yes. That in itself should give you an idea of why bringing him back isnt exactly the best idea.
He then went on to lose it because, in part, people were kicking back against the elites like him (and Blair). That is a second reason why you should be thinking it isnt a good idea.
Blair managed to repurpose the Labour party for several years in order to drive his own, mostly, right wing policies with some more left wing social policies either for votes or, arguably, pushed onto him. He then jumped as the votes spiralled downwards. He wouldnt have won the next election (well aside from possibly).
Cameron. Decided to do a Blair on the right. Generally right wing but with some more "left wing" social policies. Pissed off the core voters but just scraped past the line. Then ran away after his reunite plan failed (incidently isnt it odd whilst the brexiteers keep quoting his the people will decide line they dont also use his I will see it through one to demand he returns?)
Put either of them in charge and leave would be laughing. Yes, Rees-Mogg and his fellow hard right pals make either look highly palatable but they are even more willing to lie about it (listen to that interview linked to earlier with Rees-Mogg pretending to take the consumers side).
The "moderates" really arent welcome in most of the country. Until they realise they are a minority we will stay in this mess (in theory I sort of fit the moderate tag aside from I dont have the same belief I am the majority).
Even though the prediction is the Government will win the confidence vote I won’t be betting on it.
They will win. If they lose its general election time which the tories dont want and a fair few of Labour MPs dont either (or other parties come to that) since whoever wins it will be unpredictable what will happen.
They will win. If they lose its general election time which the tories dont want and a fair few of Labour MPs dont either (or other parties come to that) since whoever wins it will be unpredictable what will happen.
Sometimes it's the small things....
May said she would not be leader for the next election, how many tories think that is a better way of forcing a leadership challenge? Get's some of the brexiters exactly what they want and BoJo in charge etc.
To prove a point everyone bar the Tories and DUP will be voting against the government, it doesn't take many MP's to force that, it's not a done deal, factor in a couple of MP's might take this point to step down they owe no loyalty to her.
Wishful thinking Mike. You only had to see Anna Soubry on Channel 4 news being asked if she would vote against & saying "Good God no!" with a look of 'are you completely bonkers' on her face to see that there will not be a Tory revolt on No Confidence.
and
In full: Jean-Claude Juncker reaction
I take note with regret of the outcome of the vote in the House of Commons this evening. On the EU side, the process of ratification of the withdrawal agreement continues.The withdrawal agreement is a fair compromise and the best possible deal. It reduces the damage caused by Brexit for citizens and businesses across Europe. It is the only way to ensure an orderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union.
The European Commission, and notably our chief negotiator Michel Barnier, has invested enormous time and effort to negotiate the withdrawal agreement. We have shown creativity and flexibility throughout.
I, together with President Tusk, have demonstrated goodwill again by offering additional clarifications and reassurances in an exchange of letters with Prime Minister May earlier this week.
The risk of a disorderly withdrawal of the United Kingdom has increased with this evening’s vote. While we do not want this to happen, the European Commission will continue its contingency work to help ensure the EU is fully prepared. I urge the United Kingdom to clarify its intentions as soon as possible. Time is almost up.
This EU is not for turning.
Which is unlikely as someone asked him to organize the post-vote pissup.
I think the tentative suggestion was that it would be held at Fullers, but different MPs ended up at Meantime, Camden and Pourpure so yeah, unusually badly organised by Chris.
I can't see many tory mps walking through the lobbies with the opposition though some may have dicky tummies and need to sit on the toilet come voting time.
Well said 😉
The EU’s basic line hasn’t changed.
Come back to us when you know what you want and it is a sensible proposal.
That we neither ‘know’ what we ‘want’ or that it cannot, by definition, be sensible is frankly not their problem.
We’re doing this to ourselves and the time to tell the truth is nigh. It is a shit idea and it ain’t happening.
Like it or lump it or piss off somewhere else (the new Brazilian regime might be to your liking). Oh and any breach of the peace and we will nick you. The end.
just do another referendum, with proper choices and make voting compulsory.
they used to have compulsory voting in the ussr you know, didn't change much.
Even as a staunch remainer i can't see any way a second referendum would be anything but a disaster, ask the same question again and assuming you don't get a different answer where did it get you? If you do get a different answer but by anything less than huge majority where do you stop? What do you then tell the significant % of the electorate who do want brexit, sorry you're too dumb to be listened to [by extension by parliament and therefore the main parties]?
Ask a different question (or rather provide different options) and the outcome is a forgone concussion:
A)remain 48%
B)leave no deal (moderate share of 52%)
C)leave MayWay* (moderate share of 52%)
D)leave moon on stick carried aloft by winged unicorns a... (moderate share of 52%)
And so on and no-one on the leave side is going to fall for it and see it as anything other than a robbery.
What we need is a government that's willing to govern say sorry it was all a terrible mistake/sorry no deal is the only option, the biggest (amongst many) issue with the latter one now is we've 2 months to figure out what that looks like and the biggest problem with remaining at this point is it will destroy faith in our democratic process for decades amongst those who we most need to enfranchise leading to years of instability and Parliament usable to function as a result of factionalism and high numbers of single issue parties.
We're on a knife edge but the choice on which way to jump isn't between good and bad, it's between terrible and dire.
*MayWay wouldn't stand a chance of getting on the ballot after defeat in the commons, Shane really as it really did seem a less worse option in a lot of respects.
they used to have compulsory voting in the ussr you know, didn’t change much.
They have it in Oz, and version of PR, it works quite well but is let down in other respects. Compulsory means everyone is counted, you are free to spoil your ballot.
A further question must be decisive, the deal or remain, there is no other deal available before the end of the time limit.
Alternatives involve free votes in Parliament for a variety of options.
If we keep saying what won't work, we need to find a way out of this.
So now we have:
Remain: no problem, it just requires the government of the day to revoke Art. 50
Extend Art.50, needs the agreement of 27 countires all of which can use their veto to block.
No deal: the default at present
Still hasn't happened yet.
Watching BBC news channel with various politicians popping up to give their opinion.
Some of them are mind bogglingly stupid. Absolute quarter wits.
Compulsory means everyone is counted, you are free to spoil your ballot.
Which doesnt really help much. I would only want it if the "sod those options" actually had some weight. The question though is how could it have some weight in a useful manner?
In a referendun a spoilt ballot paper would be a vote for the status quo.
Which doesnt really help much. I would only want it if the “sod those options” actually had some weight.
So you want a none of the above added to the ballot? If you want that to be an option it needs to have a definition - otherwise it's worse than "leave"
The biggest issue is getting the question right, accusations of vote splitting will not be tolerated.
they used to have compulsory voting in the ussr you know, didn’t change much.
history lessons in the UK really do leave a lot to be desired
I can't see the No Confidence succeeding unless the would be leadership challengers amongst the Tories see it as a chance to grab the PM's job.
Tomorrow is going to be interesting...
if a 2nd ref is instigated by the maynpt it will be no deal or my deal option, to the maybot leave = true condition is already met.
there is no other deal available before the end of the time limit.
Following this evening's vote there is no deal available.
The EU have said they won't extend without material change in our position.
There's insufficient time to organise a referendum before end of March.
The govt won't do it any way.
Without change in the law (that I honestly can't see happening) we're leaving even in the middle of a GE (if the NCV goes through tomorrow) which there really isn't time for and, even if there was, the winning party would have to have a viable alternative on day 1 of government win a vote in commons to strike down our legal obligations, then go to the EU and ask them to, pretty please, give us a bit more time to come to the same conclusion.
Refusing to look at and accept what can't be done is why we are where we are, we've had two years and a referendum campaign dominated by wishful thinking rather than realisim, more "wouldn't it be nice" politics won't change that.
Alternatives involve free votes in Parliament for a variety of options.
None of which would be binding and, even if they were it's a game of one-upmanship due to the binary nature of the commons voting system. Everyone wants their option to be last on the table because if it's first it has to survive every vote so in theory, if it's scheduled "correctly" it could come down to a straight choice between (1) pay 35 billion and walk with no further agreements or (2) no deal, because remain got voted down against ref 2 which then lost to Norway +++
So you want a none of the above added to the ballot?
Not really, as the second sentence hopefully implied. I am just pointing out the flaw in the compulsory voting. If you have that then I think you need the ability to say "all of the above are shit" but how that would work in a referendum or a normal election isnt something I have seen answered well.
The EU will extend...they don't want no deal either
@dangerousbrain it's been used before where they do a series of non binding votes (non sequential) which indicates what the feeling is, result would be to either vote that through or put it to the people.
@dissonance it's counted as spoilt but in these situations it's got to be A or B, at this stage one of these options has to be remain. But we won't get a say until it's too late, I would say you gove are always looking for survey res ponders so sign up and make sure opinion polls are going one way!
The EU will extend…
For what purpose?
For what purpose?
Until we accept the deal or give up and stay.
history lessons in the UK really do leave a lot to be desired
Ballots were issued to everyone entitled to vote under universal sufferage rules, an incomplete or blank ballot was a vote for the incumbent party. (I also believe spoiling a ballot was a criminal offence but I'd need to check that)
You were unable not to vote, you could in theory vote for an alternative candidate but they were rare and gathered (not surprisingly) few votes.
Actual turnout was consistently high anyhow. Rumours persist that failure to vote meant you'd be removed from lists allowing you to get food and so on, though it's difficult to prove it actually happened the rumors were enough to encourage most people to turn out.
By most standards don't vote don't eat, and you're on the roll so not actively voting for option b means you automatically vote for a is close enough to compulsory as to be the same thing.
It's not North Korea though where it's a criminal offence not to vote.
before where they do a series of non binding votes (non sequential) which indicates what the feeling is,
Any ideas where i could look for a non sequential series as I'm not familiar (non binding free votes are easy enough to find)
Always a pleasure to remind everyone about that numpty THM and his constant smug bleating on about how the grown ups had everything under control
😂
I don't have the ref, but it was talked about - happening in the period I was out of the UK, basically votes on different options if my explanation was not spot on, rather than amendments on an option IE if wanted you could vote for 2 contradictory positions without them being binding. Effectively opinion polling the MP's before a binding vote.
The EU will extend only for a ref or a GE.
I think we'll see an emergency declared, an interim government and a full retraction of A50.
Is it now time to play… "how Boris played the UK"…?
I'll start us off…
Boris pushed for Turkey to join EU… other countries didn't come around to his way of thinking and put a stop to it… Boris told the UK to vote to Leave the EU because Turkey was joining.
Boris pushed for London to be more open to immigration and more international in outlook… the Home Secretary and other Tories pushed back hard against this… Boris told the UK to vote to Leave the EU to get 'control' over immigration.
Is it now time to play… “how Boris played the UK“…?
Headline in the Metro(Mail) today, "I bottled leadership" says In Love Borris - he has his fans
IE if wanted you could vote for 2 contradictory positions without them being binding. Effectively opinion polling the MP’s before a binding vote
Ah yes its quite likely they would vote for two contradictory positions but that's because of the sequence and binary nature. You have to frame the whole thing as a series of yes no questions eg
1)MayWay yes/no (effectively this evening, and a no is (sort of) a vote for no deal. MayWay now won't get back on the table)
2)nodeal yes/no (effectively a choice between no deal and remain or "plan b")
3)remain yes/no (no fourth vote as plan b is the only remaining option)
The thing is, if 3 is for plan b, remain is the default if plan b looses and so on. Given the options in a free vote come from members not the government you want your choice to be the last division so you need to table it at the right time which is after other options popular with "your side" but before something too popular with the other lot which might get passed.
In theory they could use the number of votes in favour as a guide to the final outcome but it's not really how parliament is designed to work and what do you do if nothing gets 51%+ of the vote.
Given the options in a free vote come from members not the government you want your choice to be the last division so you need to table it at the right time.
In theory they could use the number of votes in favour as a guide to the final outcome but it’s not really how parliament is designed to work and what do you do if nothing gets 51%+ of the vote.
Well I can't find the example but I think it was possibly in the PR/AV debate
The idea being you do the votes and then put the majority option back to Parliament - it's a bit like holding a referendum. there is no easy option given the system we have here - ie somebody else needs to put bills on the floor.
there is no easy option given the system we have here
Ain't that the truth. Luckily we've a [s]government of strength stability and unified purpose and an opposition which is superb at acting in the best interests of the country, even at expense of their own party, and will by holding to account, constructive debate and provision of real alternatives help the government to get us through this.[/s] parliament with all the back bone, drive and direction of a shoal of jellyfish.
"Let's park the unicorns for five minutes" Emily Maitliss to Matt Hancock on Newsnight
Barry Gardiner is an arse hole.
Not worth me spending time spelling it out in a more grown up fashion.
Corbyn need to get behind a second ref.
I can almost, almost forgive him for not getting behind the Remain campaign (if he had, we probably wouldn't be where we are right now) but if he doesn't get behind a peoples vote I'm done with him. I think a lot of his own party and party members will be to, more importantly.
I genuinely hate David Davis.
He is still saying German car makers and French wine producers will magically budge the EU.
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!?
The biggest issue is getting the question right, accusations of vote splitting will not be tolerated.
Single transferrable preference vote then - no clear winner after first round everyones second votes get added in.
Three options...
Remain
EEA / other slightly palatable deal
No Deal / Crash out
Oh can we have a quick transfer from the ABC
Come on Leigh, winter working holiday? Need somebody to get a few good questions landed
No deal isn't a consideration, even the maybot has alluded to that and there is no will in parliament for it either.
It comes down to reality..
A) a softer deal than the one that catastrophically unprecedentedly failed today
B) Remain with all our current benefits and voting rights in the EU.
B) is Vastly more sensible but I'd settle for A.
Well,I guess that's it for tonight.
The perma train wreck continues and all we can do is look out the carriage window at the wheels coming off.
“Let’s park the unicorns for five minutes” Emily Maitliss to Matt Hancock on Newsnight
Seriously? That's fantastic. 😀
"It really doesn’t matter how vile his politics, people vote for him because of how he speaks."
Centuries of breeding. No, not Rees-Mogg, English people.
There's an interesting article on Politics.co.uk about voting mechanisms with three options; it uses an example where you can choose which of the three options wins depending on which mechanism you pick. It would be thoroughly awkward and very difficult to end up with a result that everybody accepted even if a winner seemed obvious at first glance.
Well this **** fantasy turned to dust.
The daily mail is culpable in this shtshow
Meanwhile May's plan is to resubmit the same plan over & over & lose the vote each time
Corbyns plan is to resubmit the same confidence plan over and over & lose that vote each time
Does anyone have any numbers as to how the no confidence vote will work out? Is govt likely to lose?
Is that Daily Mail cover for real? I’d missed that at he time. Is it any wonder we’re in this mess 😳
Well... back to today... Jezza gets to waste another day debating a no confidence motion everyone knows he’ll lose.
It’s not that important though really, I suppose, when you’ve wasted the last 3 years producing nothing but some vague red unicorns nonsense, and totally failing - let’s be honest; not even trying - to hold the government to account
He really is a total and utter waste of space. Even the most deluded of the Momentum lemmings must be able to see that he’s equally as culpable for this shitshow as May.
If the no confidence vote loses, will Corbyn quit?
Tories and DUP hold a majority so if nobody rebels then they can survive it. Based on last night's numbers it takes 5 or 6 I think to loose so somebody from that side must flip. Best bet is a group of tories who want may replaced as leader who think a new leader would win an election and deliver their majority for brexit. Yep we are looking at. Borris the backbone Johnson there
He really is a total and utter waste of space. Even the most deluded of the Momentum lemmings must be able to see that he’s equally as culpable for this shitshow as May.
To get that to happen they need a full pause on a50 a month to do a clean leadership challenger and then election and both parties ditch the leaders.
Next option is a closed door policy session on europe and pick one....
If the no confidence vote loses, will Corbyn quit?
To run with the Corbyn 3D chess meme. No. 3D stalemate.
Until the legislation walks in on March 29th and kicks over the chessboard (or chesscube I guess).
Based on last night’s numbers it takes 5 or 6 I think to loose so somebody from that side must flip.
where's Sinn Fein when you need 'em 😉
The Torys will close ranks and nod May through the no confidence vote. There's no way on earth even the most hardline Brexiteer lunatic will not risk a general election
So we're left with two party leaders who are both patently hopeless, who's own MP's mainly loath them as they know they're hopeless, but are safe in their respective positions due purely to the total cluster-**** of our present situation, with the clock ticking
What a mess! We're utterly devoid of leadership or direction from either main party
The thing nobodoy is really talking about is that there's a bucket load of legislation that needs passing before we actually leave. MPs were already saying there's not enough time to get it all through parliament and the current faff is just taking more time out of what's left. I believe the saying is "Tick Tock".
He really is a total and utter waste of space.
May suffers record defeat; Binners still rabbiting on about Corbyn. "Nothing has changed" as someone said.
“Let’s park the unicorns for five minutes” Emily Maitliss to Matt Hancock on Newsnight
If even the Beeb with its hands tied behind its back in token appeasement of ‘balance’ can’t put up with the hogwash being spouted any more then we are inching closer to the point of having to tell the truth.
It is a terrible idea and we can’t do it.
Hopefully this is the start of the Beeb saying “we can’t have ‘balance’ on this issue because that has to involve people telling lies and it damages our credibility too”.
It's just an unrequited mancrush there DrJ
But it's partly true, this is a point where he needs to be putting something forward. He needs to persuade some tories to support him.
But out of all of this bring back the lib dems please.
And in that the next person to mention tuition fees or whiff of ministerial leather as a reason for not voting lib dem/pro eu needs to go take a ****ing hard look at the curre t situation. Stop living in the past.
If even the Beeb
Yeah, but they are still on the same tune on R4Today this morning, giving the lie-machine that is Steve Baker and the vile Leadsom woman full opportunity to spout their propaganda
DrJ - its because at this point, more than ever, we need a proper party of opposition to articulate an alternative vision or just offere a realistic way out of this mess!.
Instead we get him calling a no confidence vote eveyone knows he'll lose, a call for a general election everyone knows he won't get, and the continuation of a 'cake and eat it' policy with the EU, just with red unicorns instead of blue ones
Can you just run me through how this moves us on in any way, or remotely offers any solutions to this total shambles?
I'm all ears.....
not even trying – to hold the government to account<
Yesterday was all about holding the government to account.
When did Corbyn get so shouty? Just seen a clip of him calling for the no confidence vote.
But out of all of this bring back the lib dems please.
The biggest irony here is that the LibDems are so tainted with the toxicity of coalition with the Tories that their core support deserted them. That the principal beneficiaries of their own toxicity are the Tories themselves you have to wonder if this isn’t all just a big episode of Beadle’s About.