More good news, so Brexiteers your solution please.
THM as you have now decided to join the brexiteers "you" is the right term, There was nothing democratic in the referendum so don't start on that crap please. Democracy requires one fact the truth, without it is nothing more than sophistry.
Jamba - did you read the article you linked to?
Look out EU, The Donald is coming after you and the Common Agricultural Policy
As for UK farmers, they voted for an end to CAP subsidies, I'm inclined to let them have an end to subsidies.
Happy to buy elsewhere.
THM as you have now decided to join the brexiteers "you" is the right term,
Have I? Ooh, how nice, I am part of a majority again, When do I get the T shirt?
There was nothing democratic in the referendum so don't start on that crap please
Of course not, nothing remotely democratic in letting the great unwashed have a say is there. Whereas, ignoring them and calling them thick.....
Democracy requires one fact the truth, without it is nothing more than sophistry.
Fancy words but you may want to check their definitions before (ab)using them in public too often.
im surprised that the mail is admitting that pro-brexit twitter bots are russian
We can afford UK farm subsidies. Just as we could afford CAP. The figures aren't big compared to other areas of state expenditure really. That whole "40% of EU budget" sounds big (was 70% before UK led reforms), but don't forget that the EU budget is only, what, 1% of the money spent by national governments? All the big money spending is still done by national governments. Sovereignty and all that…
So our unprepared cowboys apparently spent three hours picking over the EUs detailed four pager on the bill. (Delicious irony there.). That must have been fun. Given they have done no prep how did they eek it out for three hours. Pour Guy must have missed his lunch. No wonder he was so cross
eek out
Eek!!
LOL
"pour Guy" - Freudian?
r a big chunk of the "exit bill" is our budget contributions to April 2019
The EU reckon it's up to 2020 as that's what Cameron signed up to, the UK say that it wasn't legally binding.
epared cowboys apparently spent three hours picking over the EUs detailed four pager on the bill
Yeah anyone's grumpy after a 3hr PowerPoint!
As the UK desperately try and wriggle out of paying any money, don't we just look less attractive to future trading partners? at any point we could cause huge disruption by unilaterally pulling out and then arguing bitterly over what we owe & refusing to pay any compensation, all because our MPs have stoked up nationalism such that they are backed into a corner by the right wing press.
The same with Davis agreeing to the EUs schedule on day 1 of the talks, then spending the next 2 months whining that he wants simultaneous trade talks.
The great global Brexit Britain trade adventure we are all embarking on is never going to work if the rest of the world thinks we might throw a hissy fit at any minute & we'll need them more than ever as we are doing a good job of alienating our nearest neighbours & biggest trading partner by far.
No they have agreed to pay the bill - despite no legal obligation (HoL) - in order to facilitate future trade arrangements. This is no part of a sensible due diligence process that her than merely bending over and lubing up!
Good for them. Someone has been doing some homework! Phew!
in order to facilitate future trade arrangements
And everyone (not just the EU) is waiting to see how we intend to handle pulling out of our current trade arrangements (including honouring commitments made) before starting serious talks about any new trade arrangements. Tick, tock…
No they have agreed to pay the bill
So why is jambs saying 2019? If we've said we will
I suppose Davis agreeing to the schedule then changing his mind shows that were liable to renege on promises on a whim!
I still think that it'll be around 40bn, as that will cover our contributions for the next 7 year cycle.
And even tho Poland, France etc are pushing for more Barnier being more reasonable.
Is that gonna wash at home tho?
If we want a transition obviously we'd have to pay in during that period (that is obvious right?)
I imagine it'll be a game of hide the subsidy, as the gov cut up the payments & try and call them something else.
Either way countries looking at making future trade deals with us will be very wary !
teamhurtmore - Member
No they have agreed to pay the bill - despite no legal obligation (HoL) - in order to facilitate future trade arrangements. This is no part of a sensible due diligence process that her than merely bending over and lubing up!
Just looking to see that announced or have they agreed in principle to pay a bill but not yet agreed on the amount?
I'll appreciate the HoL has a legal opinion on this but they are not the final or ruling party to this are they.
You can always tell when Dacre is getting worried and frustrated:
http://www.****/debate/article-4838768/ANDREW-PIERCE-EU-chief-negotiator-Michel-Barnier.html
Apols for Mail link etc.
despite no legal obligation (HoL)
Was that a British HoL opinion? Would an opinion from, say, Greece come to the same conclusion?
Not saying it's wrong of course and it's probably less propaganda-ish than an order/order article, but it is a legal opinion from a not dis-interested group - pinch of salt needed.
martinhutch - Member
You can always tell when Dacre is getting worried and frustrated
You'll have to summarise, if I click on it I'll need a shower
Sorry back at work today, will post the link later.
Mike correct, they are not and they received conflicting opinion as the link will show, Their conclusion was "on balance" but it's not clear cut either way.
IGM - as above.
I find the Parliamentary research briefings helpful as they give good updates and summarise ctte findings on both sides of the argument. If you got there, you will find the report re the legal aspects. If you can wait, I will post tonight on train home 😉
****ing hell I was a staunch EU supporter til I read that piece in the mail.
That's the problem with the EU too many people looking in the mirror.
You'll have to summarise, if I click on it I'll need a shower
Just going all out to play the man rather than the ball is the clean version. Similar to the state of the argument when you get ad homs on here.
From Politco.eu
Latest from the negotiations: Noises from both sides are pessimistic. The Telegraph reports “total amazement” from the EU side after “British negotiators spent three hours launching a painstaking, line-by-line rebuttal of the EU’s demands” for between €60 and €100 billion. The atmosphere in the room, report Charlie Cooper, David M. Herszenhorn, Maïa de La Baume and Simon Marks, was “very tense,” with British negotiators reacting angrily to the idea they aren’t “serious” about the talks.
Absolutely what the UK side should be doing. A detailed line by line rebuttal of the [b]EU extortion attempt[/b]. I can well imagine the EU are somewhat stunned. They have no responce as their demands have no legal basis. Sky News has it right too, the EU are demanding a "Brexit Bill" based on 4 vague pages of frankly nonsense
So if you keep saying it does it make it true? It's been your line all along and we all know how negotiations go if you don't have an open mind.
You can always tell when Dacre is getting worried and frustrated:
Jesus
So, we've gone from a close working relationship with our nearest neighbours to bitter acrimony, for no reason at all.
GOOD WORK EVERYONE!
FFS.
Of course there is no "legal" necessity to pay anything… we didn't lose sovereignty and can do what we like… just kill all our current trading arrangements, leave all the lose ends hanging, and then go into discussions with EU and others asking for new trade arrangements in, er, good faith.
The Telegraph reports
well that normally sets BS alarmbells rining 😉
that aside why hasnt their been a gov white paper on the bill, again it was one of the 3 things that Davis agreed to settle b4 trade talks when he signed up
but the gov refuse to disclose anything about it, the Foreign Secretary even saying the EU could 'Go Whistle'
its almost as if the gov are trying to stage manage the whole thing for the swivel eyed brexies
On the most intractable issue, the so-called divorce bill, three hours of intense discussion on Tuesday was accompanied by 23 slides and 11 pages of dense text, a source said, pointing out that the EU has provided just 4 pages to outline its position.
whats really funny is that Tory supporters are saying that 4 pages isnt enough information when 'Brexit means Brexit' is all the Maybot has been able to output for the last year
proof?4 vague pages of frankly nonsense
it could easily be 23 slides & 11 pages of waffle from our gov and 4 pages of concise sums from the EU
as we havent seen these legendary slides & a4 sheets we will just have to believe what the Murdoch press tells us eh?
It's all going swimmingly.
Mol, step away from the EU narrative before you get brainwashed. Like all bullies hist in hem getting shirty because we are standing up to them. Good for the negotiators.
Kimbers it was in the Guardian too!!
@thm what?
I'm commenting on the fact that we have made adversaries out of allies for no reason.
Kimbers it was in the Guardian too!!
damn the MSM !
Mol, you know thm's advice, same as the nuclear warning get under the table hide and don't say anything....
I'm commenting on the fact that we have made adversaries out of allies for no reason.
of course there was a reason - the EU is not just a trading arrangement.
We are in negotiations mol. Both sides have starting positions that don't work. They will clash as they seek compromise. In the meantime, they will manage the narrative to drive public opinion.
To date, the EU has been more successful at this especially over here, where people remain tied to petty party allegiances that prevent rational analysis. They are winning the media war.
What we saw yesterday was simply part of that process. The EU present an unrealistic demand and the UK rebuffs it. That is how negotiations work. The media will then spin their sides of the story. No change there.
There will be times when the talks get stressed. Why? Because the EU must deliver a situation for the UK that is worse than the status quo. In contrast, the UK has to achieve the opposite. So it will be tense. The extent to which either side alienates each other depends on how sensible the behind the scenes negotiators are and what happens at the key talks (also behind the scenes) between Macron, May and Merkel, the three Muskateers who actually matter (at least for now)
of course there was a reason - the EU is not just a trading arrangement.
I know and we are chucking out those benefits too
sounds like the EHIC is also a sticking point 🙁
To date, the EU has been more successful at this especially over here, where people remain tied to petty party allegiances that prevent rational analysis. They are winning the media war.
Funny man.
Yes, THM, you have neatly described the situation, and how difficult it is.
The EU are saying that the UK are being incompetent and unrealistic. Are you suggesting I shouldn't believe this, and that they do in fact know what they are doing?
I certainly don't have any party allegiances and the first one that stands up and says that the whole stupid brexit disaster is a catastrophe that must be stopped will have my undying gratitude pretty much irrespective of other policies.
That the EU are bully boys is the "new" lie being perpetuated by Brexiteers - even those that don't claim to be. They have a stance. They've been pretty open about it.
It's a simple step on from the paradoxical pre-referendum stance of thinking we're amazing and that the world will beat a path to our door while simultaneously whinging about being bullied for 40 years by the rest of Europe.
Don't worry, "someone else" will solve all that for them.
non-mail related link about that russian brexit-bot
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/twitter-account-suspected-of-being-part-of-russian-disinformation-campaign/news-story/ad128e22fd4c3bf6c38d18526d68de42
Are you suggesting I shouldn't believe this, and that they do in fact know what they are doing
No I am suggesting that you put the noise into context. But if you step away from the media and read what is published by the government in terms of the briefings etc, you quickly realise that a hell of a lot more is going on than would be suggested by the very shallow 24 hour news coverage. The papers merely regurgitate press releases and out their pre-determined spin on it. Most journos have neither the time nor the inclination to do decent analysis and research any more. Constant noise "trumps" thoughtful perspective and analysis.
Not true, DD, it is merely demonstrating an understand of how the EU (doesn't) negotiate. They bully first, ask Varoufakis, the Italians and the Portuguese. The track record is very clear.
I think thm has it right here. For background, here is the view of someone with a lot of experience of how the EU negotiate:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may
with a little more info about the big-mouthed hypocrite Verhofstadt:
https://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=62406
Owen Jones is very funny trying to put a Labour spin on events today in TG. Spots the dilemmas fair enough, but then pretends that Labour has a genuine alternative. Is he auditioning for HIGNFY? Or is TG now a satirical magazine?
Owen Jones is all over the place on this… acknowledging that any form of Brexit is worse than staying in the EU, yet insisting there must be no democratic means to stay in the EU. His views seem to shift whenever his party changes its approach to how we Leave, and, even when the party positions can't be seperated with a fag paper, insisting that his party's position is more realistic than that of the other party.