[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Yep EIB has awarded billions across Europe to univesities and here in the UK, Oxford, UCL, Edinburgh etc
http://www.ed.ac.uk/news/2016/eib-230216
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0416/280416-european-investment-bank
http://www.eib.org/infocentre/press/releases/all/2017/2017-206-investment-plan-for-europe-eur-30m-loan-from-eib-for-university-of-latvia-campus-development

list of all 1410 projects theyve helped fund in the UK
http://www.eib.org/projects/loan/list/?region=1&country=GB
please tell me which ones you think are a waste ?
social housing, education, power, water transport infrastructure?

its almost as if they think that education is a worthy investment...

Well we fixed that eh? Losers.

Japan - the one we will sign quickly after April 2019

Show me the evidence?

Evidence? Just look at his cheeky little smile. Don't you worry your pretty little head over it. Its all in hand

[img] [/img]

Is fox about to be abducted by aliens?

^^^^

I think he was being rapturously filled with the spirit of Fatcha

If you, as a keen cyclist were put in charge of banning cycling would you ...
A. Ban every bit of cycling from the land ...or
B. Try and wangle through us much pro cycling legislation
as humanly possible?
Surely as an ardent remainer Enola should be delivering as soft a brexit as possible.
Does that evil ****ing slut **** bitch have any position that she won't flip on.
How can she be trusted with anything?

I think we've long since established that none of the present shower can be trusted with anything other than their own greed and self-advancement.

Does that evil * slut * bitch

dont hold back!

try & keep it at least moderately civil

how about answering more pressing issues like the Irish border ?

still nothing Jambalaya ?

Is liam Fox about to do some backflips?
[img] [/img]

try & keep it at least moderately civil

On the other question though come 2019, there is a GE and one party see's the problems and says we will cancel the process and remain in the EU. Would you vote for them? Would it be democratic?

If that was their only policy then probably not. And no.

Obviously a hypothetical question as it won't happen, but the choice with the LDs last time was closest in reality. TBH, there are no parties that I vote positively for, and last time it was very much a process of elimination. Who do I least dislike/distrust. I am waiting for the party that commits to reducing their involvement in life and the allocation of scarce resources. Hence with the EU, the appeal to me is the single market and the core four freedoms. The negatives are the the beaucracy that accompanies them and the ultimate folly - the €. Not that this was our problem despite what the Brexshiteers used to claim.

IGM, not sure why you have started making up what people say in order to argue against it. Not your normal style. But to the other questions, yes thanks. Two weeks in California including lots of hiking in Yosemite. Apart from the odd pockets of mega affluence and conspicuous consumption (Pebble Beach) the US had a beaten up feel to it outside the natural majesty. San Fran especially so. San Jose airport is nice though. A nation in decline.

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/gary-nevilles-commentary-on-the-brexit-negotiations-20170829134834 ]Gary Neville has his say[/url]

THM - not making it up, just trying to summarise and understand your position, which is I think somewhat ambiguous at best. However feel free to point out where I'm wrong, I'm just trying to understand where your coming from.
Yosemite - lovely. Last time I was there I took a 1930s 120 rollfilm camera, red filters and a stack of FPan. Swine to use but when you get it right, photos you feel you could walk into.
I love San Francisco too, but I know what you mean about a nation in decline - it's probably where we were about 40-60 years ago as our global significance departed and we looked round for a way to be great again - for us of course it was... ah wait a minute I'm probably not meant to say that.

Downloading all the photos later - Sentinel Point at sunset and Nevada Falls at dawn (on way up H Dome) were highlights.

Positions clear: crass idea => argue/vote for remain => accept and move on => negotiate very hard => stand up to EU bullying => anticipate the next version of EU when it arrives => get on with work.

I appreciate it's clear to you, but not so much to me.

I think I get most of it apart from the negotiate hard bit.
Negotiate for what exactly; what would a good or acceptable deal look like? And remember Negotiation 101 - there have to be two winners in a bipartite negotiation otherwise both sides will loose eventually.

So simple question on your view point.

Do we have to leave (I think you think yes) and what does leave mean?

If for example, we "left" and remained in the single market and customs union, maintaining the 4 freedoms, with or without club subs, would that be acceptable?

PS - never been up HD.

I did make it to the bottom of the Grand Canyon one time (out of three) and that's worth doing, but not beautiful.

What's the walk up like?

Renault own Nissan

except that it doesn't - I hope the rest of your 'facts' are more accurate...

TurnerGuy - it effectively does. Hence why all the senior European Nissan guys I meet are based in Paris (and carry both Nissan and Renault branded stuff). Mitsubishi is part of the same set up too.

The Alliance is a strategic partnership based on the rationale that, due to substantial cross-shareholding investments, each company acts in the financial interest of the other—while maintaining individual brand identities and independent corporate cultures. Renault currently has a 43.4 percent (fully voting) stake in Nissan, and Nissan holds a 15 percent (non-voting) stake in Renault effectively giving Renault control.

906 pages!

What a strange year it's been of British mass debating.

TurnerGuy - it effectively does. Hence why all the senior European Nissan guys I meet are based in Paris (and carry both Nissan and Renault branded stuff). Mitsubishi is part of the same set up too.

Renault own Dacia, what spare capacity does Dacia have? Would provide an EU site with cheap labour within the customs union.

They compete internally on each new model as I understand it. Extra tariffs work against Sunderland but £:€ parity will work in Sunderland's favour. Sunderland is also very efficient (UK workers seem to be when they have foreign management - I should worry about that on a personal basis).
Whether Brexit is good or bad for Sunderland depends on supply chains, raw materials and where the pound goes longer term.

TurnerGuy - it effectively does.

'effectively does' is not the same as 'does'

Agreed. But in this case its close enough.

igm - Member
I appreciate it's clear to you, but not so much to me.

I can't do much about that. I can't make it any clearer.

And remember Negotiation 101 - there have to be two winners in a bipartite negotiation otherwise both sides will loose eventually.

That's the bit the EU historically don't get and don't want to get this time in case others vote to leave

So simple question on your view point. Do we have to leave (I think you think yes)

We are leaving. That's simple too.

and what does leave mean?

Ending membership of the European Union.

If for example, we "left" and remained in the single market and customs union, maintaining the 4 freedoms, with or without club subs, would that be acceptable?

Neither side have put this scenario on the table, for obvious reasons. Both sides have opened with positions that don't work. From there they - or at least we - will negotiate. So there may be/will be compromises. I have no idea what they will be. But we can pretty sure, what you have laid out will not happen.

My own position is in the minority, so cannot happen. I can live with that though, it's part of living in a democracy. Sometimes it can be tough, but that's life. Deal with it....

Didn't ask if it was on the table, would it meet your definition of leaving?

PS - "Ending membership of the European Union" is ambiguous in itself. There is a fairly clinical definition, but joining EFTA (if they'd have us) lies within that and many wouldn't feel we'd left in that situation.

On the contrary, that is the only bit that is definitive. It's also what we are doing.

The only ambiguity lies in the form of access that we will have to the single market and vice versa once we have left - either in 3/19 or at the end of the transition period (not that this really matters as much as this week's headlines would have us believe)

There are essentially four "off the shelf" versions of access as we/I have discussed many times earlier. We prefer to have a bespoke deal that has some of the characteristics of each of these (especially two of them) and the EU doesn't not want to grant this to us for obvious reasons. This is the only source of ambiguity as we do not know what the outcome will be. Hence the negotiations. It really is very simple, other than the details.

But we will have given up membership whatever happens. We had a referendum on that issue.

EU doesn't not want to grant this to us for obvious reasons.

You've lost me here between double negatives and the reasons not being obvious enough to spring to mind. I'm not sure who "we" refers to either or what a "bespoke" deal comprises as you don't state the characteristics that make up such a deal. You're sounding just like a pro-Brexit politician, THM, lots of words to say nothing at all.

Never mind

If it's not obvious why the EU doesn't not want to give us what we want, then we should leave it there.

But I don't understand what you want, THM. Four possibilities and a bespoke deal being the best combination of characteristics from all four, which are?

Jeez, I don't get how people are now blaming the democratic EU for protecting the interests of the members.

Given the UK are being really vague and belligerent about the whole thing.. Put yourself In thier shoes.. They've been pretty damn reasonable so far. asking questions like what TF we are doing, and why aren't we engaged in any negotiations in any meaningful way

...and until you provide a solution to the problem without an answer, then we will not negotiate on trade

(Masterful non-negotiation)

And we respond with a grinning idiot who's more interested in sucking the arms off his spectacles than he is in global politics.

Let's say you have a £1500 slate in your gentleman's club, THM. You then decide to quit the club but would like to go back there for a drink now and then as a guest. What do you think they're going to ask you to do before considering whether they'll let you drink there again and under what conditions? That's right, clear your slate.

What's your point? There is no disagreement on clearing the skate as you put it.

The only issue is what is on the slate and how that balances with the credit that has also been supplied to "the club".

The point is the UK government are not engaged in any meaningful discussions, you can't leave 'the club' and then dictate you're re admission whilst dictating new club rules.

That's not what is happening, but carry on.

£1500 net, we've done our sums. Pay up or the door man will keep turning you away. Pay up and we'll consider letting you in in future as a paying guest.

What is your point? persisiting with an inaccurate analogy adds neither value nor clarity to the debate and lacks the humour of the boycott to sabotage proposal

Go home THM, that attitude is of no help to anybody.

Neither is making things up/complexity missing the point (deliberately or otherwise) - as you both are doing. Traditionally that is left to Brexshiteers. They are much better at it too.

It really is very simple, other than the details.

> rolls eyes <

But I don't understand what you want, THM

For his investment to pay off?

The clock is ticking as the EU well know so their Penelope tactic (pace Varoufakis) is highly effective, and our counter move of not showing up is looking a bit foolish.

Unfortunately we want everything the EU have to offer, but need to pretend to want none of it. Tricky. We have allowed ourselves to be sucked into futile discussion on issues that could have been settled - the obvious example being the question of EU nationals. We could agree to do the right thing, it would cost nothing and we could move on. Instead we are hamstrung by xenophobia (as we now refer to it).

Of course the matter is not helped that the man in charge is The Grinning Idiot and his boss is so incompetent that they need a new word for incompetent. All going swimmingly then.