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See, this just stinks of English nationalism and jingoism.
I'm not certain if this was aimed at me or the people who thought the Irish with their continuing membership would roll over as in times past. One of the limitations of text based discussion. My comment was aimed at the latter group who have failed to adapt to changing times.
I also wish to apologise to Binners who I may have criticised over his Corbyn stance. Today's Guardian interview above has done for him as a rational chap in my eyes. If you want to move the direction of state subsidy you don't leave a club that is interventionist in outlook. You stay and make changes from within.
The whole things looks more hopeless by the day.
If you want to move the direction of state subsidy you don’t leave a club that is interventionist in outlook
Don't agree.
You dismantle the worst of the Neo-libralism within your Government.
The right have a managed a decent programme of destruction whilst we've been members of the EU.
Agree with sandwich, he's just blown up his credibility by pushing for brexit at any cost. if he thinks that leaving the EU will lead to us being anything less than a mini USA he's properly deluded.
No wonder labour are polling so poorly in the face of utter Tory chaos
Sandwich
...I also wish to apologise to Binners who I may have criticised over his Corbyn stance. Today’s Guardian interview above has done for him as a rational chap in my eyes...
I was caught out by Corbyn too.
I thought here's a return to principled Labour politicians when he first reared his head, but his feet of clay revealed themselves when it came to the question of Trident. Opposed to nuclear weapons, but supporting the retention of Trident? Even the arch Tory Enoch Powell didn't think nuclear weapons did anything useful. (It's worth reading his opinion)
Yup, he's just another politician.
I don't fancy the choices of vote for any middle of the road English voter at the moment. Would you like a shit sandwich, or this iced shit gateau?
If there's one thing that's clear, and this is becoming evident in other countries, foreign billionaires should not be entrusted with control over our mass media.
He's only reiterating Labour policy. It's a stupid policy, but that's another matter.
I thought Labour policy, as voted by conference, was not to rule out a second referendum in the event of a Brexit which didn't satisfy the six tests, and the absence of a GE?
Their composite motion:
Conference welcomes Jeremy Corbyn’s determined efforts to hold the Tories to account for their disastrous negotiations. Conference accepts that the public voted to leave the EU, but when people voted to ‘take back control’ they were not voting for fewer rights, economic chaos or to risk jobs. Conference notes the warning made by Jaguar Land Rover on 11.9.18, that without the right deal in place, tens of thousands of jobs there would be put at risk.
Conference notes that workers in industries across the economy in ports, food, pharmaceuticals, manufacturing, energy, chemicals, in our public services and beyond are worried about the impact of a hard Brexit on livelihoods and communities.
Conference believes we need a relationship with the EU that guarantees full participation in the Single Market. The Brexit deal being pursued by Theresa May is a threat to jobs, freedom of movement, peace in Northern Ireland and the NHS. Tory Brexit means a future of dodgy trade deals and American-style deregulation, undermining our rights, freedoms and prosperity. This binds the hands of future Labour governments, making it much harder for us to deliver on our promises. Conference notes Labour has set six robust tests for the final Brexit deal. Conference believes Labour MPs must vote against any Tory deal failing to meet these tests in full.
Conference also believes a no-deal Brexit should be rejected as a viable option and calls upon Labour MPs to vigorously oppose any attempt by this Government to deliver a no-deal outcome. Conference notes that when trade unions have a mandate to negotiate a deal for their members, the final deal is accepted or rejected by the membership. Conference does not believe that such important negotiations should be left to government ministers who are more concerned with self-preservation and ideology than household bills and wages.
Stagnant wages, crumbling services and the housing crisis are being exacerbated by the government and employers making the rich richer at working people’s expense, and not immigration. Conference declares solidarity and common cause with all progressive and socialist forces confronting the rising tide of neo-fascism, xenophobia, nationalism and right wing populism in Europe.
Conference resolves to reaffirm the Labour Party’s commitment to the Good Friday Agreement of 1998 including no hard border in Ireland.
Conference believes that there is no satisfactory technological solution that is compliant with the Good Friday Agreement and resolves to oppose any Brexit deal that would see the restoration of a border on the island of Ireland in any form for goods, services or people.
Should Parliament vote down a Tory Brexit deal or the talks end in no-deal, Conference believes this would constitute a loss of confidence in the Government. In these circumstances, the best outcome for the country is an immediate General Election that can sweep the Tories from power.
If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote. If the Government is confident in negotiating a deal that working people, our economy and communities will benefit from they should not be afraid to put that deal to the public.
This should be the first step in a Europe-wide struggle for levelling-up of living standards, rights and services and democratisation of European institutions Labour will form a radical government; taxing the rich to fund better public services, expanding common ownership, abolishing anti-union laws and engaging in massive public investment.
Didn't hear Corbyn on R4. Is he deviating from that?
Don't let the actual policy get in the way. Better for the Corbyn haters to just continue to make stuff up.
As a remainer I am disappointed that the Labour party did not come out as 100% remain but I am not going to ignore all of their other policies and their intentions of at least trying to bring about a fairer society with more focus on less privileged and less focused on the rich.
And all that really matters is what happens when May's deal is rejected and what Labour MPs vote on after that. They will be voting against a No Deal so where does that leave us?
Guardian article (although I suppose they no doubt counts as Corbyn haters): https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/21/jeremy-corbyn-labour-policy-leaving-eu
At least he explicitly recognises 60% of labour supporters voted remain - thanks for screwing me over Jezza - much appreciated.
Martinhutch, you need to keep your eye on the pea under the thimble. As I said before, the six tests only apply to the Tory brexit, not the Labour one.
It's there explicitly in the text you quoted.
I suppose you could argue your way through that loophole, but it is alongside a firm commitment to keep access to the single market, a firm rejection of no-deal and a hard border in NI, and a commitment to campaign for a 2nd ref should other options be unavailable (which they will be after Jan 11).
So basically, any move towards no deal and rejection of the option of a 2nd ref goes directly against policy as set at conference.
My reading of Labour party policy is that all bets are off if there is a GE and they get in, however. Not that this appears likely, given their rather dismal polling.
I was caught out by Corbyn too.
Me too. He got me voting for Labour at a GE election for the first time.
The last two years have made it clear that he wants Brexit. Labour "policy" was changed so that he could push Brexit, and pretend to his party that he is doing otherwise. Anyone still claiming to fall for it is either slow on the uptake, or playing the same game as him.
The worst thing about this is that it is clear that those who stand to lose out most because of this hard Brexit he has whipped for (outside CU & SM) are those who he claims to be in politics to support.
Of all the magic unicorns presently being presented by all factions of all parties, Corbyn’s are the most fantastical.
That leaving will usher in a socialist utopia.
Absolutely delusional. Everyone knows, particularly those sat silently on the benches behind him, that it will deliver the polar opposite. A dystopian, deregulated, right-wing, neo-liberal tax-haven/sweatshop that’s merely an outpost of the US
Our labour MP, no Corbyn fan, is now openly pushing for a second referendum
If he knows 60% of labour voted remain, surely Labour policy should be remain.
He will never get his GE and even if he does, he will loose it.
martinhutch, that's not some little loophole to argue through, it's a big gaping chasm deliberately inserted precisely to enable Corbyn to ram through any labour brexit. It's been very carefully wordsmithed for this purpose and if you've listened very carefully to all the interviews by senior labour shadow ministers like Keir Starmer you'll have heard that they are careful to avoid contradicting it. As he (quite legitimately) points out, the six tests are based on Tory ministers' own words, it's a tool to hold them to account. Labour never promised to meet the six tests and "access to" the single market is meaningless verbiage. All countries have "access".
They could literally vote down May's deal, win a GE and ram May's deal through parliament, just crossing out "May" and replacing with "Corbyn" in the title. That would be 100% compatible with Labour policy. Oh, perhaps they would be a bit clearer about staying in the CU, which is pretty much implied by the backstop to May's deal but not actually stated as an end goal.
Well, that Corbyn interview makes for pretty depressing, if entirely predictable reading.
Just confirming what we all knew, as he’s demonstrated it consistently for decades. He’s a hardline Brexiteer who is absolutely determined to drive it through, despite pretty much all his MPs, most labour voters and the vast majority of his fabled ‘membership’ holding the opposing view
Utterly depressing
What a bit of a mess.
To be honest, May's deal (as stupid and contrary as it is ) is the lesser evil.
I'd sooner trust the EU to be sensible and tell us what's what than leave it to the muppets in our own parliament, they've all repeatedly proven that they are at best, incompetent. Unfortunately it's not just incompetence at play here, it's weapons grade cross party weaseling and duplicity.
What a bit of a mess.
The profanity filter works then 😉
If he knows 60% of labour voted remain, surely Labour policy should be remain.
I read that and thought it must be a typo.
60% of labour voters don’t want Brexit so errr, we’ll be pushing through Brexit if we get in.
I'll just leave this here to annoy Binners:
https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018/12/the-new-guardian-business-model.html
we want to be like Switzerland”??
Schengen.
Yes, I realised this. So the reality is that any post-Brexit free trade agreement the UK has with the EU will likely require freedom of movement.
That's a terribly misleading article that Cougar has linked to.
Eg:
how the hell is talking about what Labour's position would be in a second referendum compatible with the absolutist stance from the article headline that "Brexit would go ahead"?
It's entirely compatible, because as has been explained repeatedly, if labour wins an election there will be no second referendum. It's there in black and white in their agreed policy. The 2nd ref discussed in the article means a ref under a tory govt, that's the only scenario that labour policy currently allows for.
Corbyn’s ‘policy’ is that if they win a general election (they won’t) they’ll go back to Brussels and ask nicely for their ‘cake and eat it’ Brexit, which they’ll immediately be granted, just because they’re not David Davis.
Basically it’s an insult to the intelligence of anyone who hasn’t spent the last 24 hours smoking crack
https://twitter.com/labourpress/status/1075362582960189440
So, there you have it from the Labour Party - Brussels won't renegotiate.
We can have Mays Brexit, No Deal or A50.
We can have Mays Brexit, No Deal or A50.
Yes, Mays deal is off, No Deal is off and majority of MPs are against so revoke A50 is only option left
Still offering 5/1 at a couple of bookies...
Not entirely, that's on the basis of the Tory's redlines and negotiating stance. Brussels might be prepared to renegotiate on the basis of different starting position from the UK side. But that wouldn't happen in 3 months and would have to also include therefore a delay or revoke and start over.
But Corbyn has put red lines down already. He's said that freedom of movement will end. Thats a red line. And as the EU must be getting very bored of endlessly repeating: the 4 freedoms of the EU are indivsable. So no freedom of movement, no single market or customs union. It really is that simple. As Jezza would find out on Day 1 of negotiations
But the rest of his policy*, such as it is, is equally nonsensical. Being part of 'a' cutoms union, but not 'the' customs union. Retaining tariff-free acess to the single market without being actually part of the single market
Utter nonsense the lot of it! Cloud-cuckooland unicorn-based cobblers! Like I said.. an insult to everyones intelligence.
Which is why labour, faced with an utter shambles opposite them, have failed to capitalise with voters. Because people aren't that daft. We now all know that a 'cake and eat it' Brexit is impossible. Yet that is exactly what Corbyn is saying he's going to deliver
yeah, right....
Even someone who's been smoking crack for the last 24 hours can see straight through that one
* the word is used advisedly in this instance and does not denote anything that would survive first contact with the real world
Not entirely, that’s on the basis of the Tory’s redlines and negotiating stance. Brussels might be prepared to renegotiate on the basis of different starting position from the UK side.
But you just made that up.
What Corbyn has just done, is give TM deal the best chance to get through.
Corbyn is a frigging idiot. He's got no business being politician.
Agree with sandwich, he’s just blown up his credibility by pushing for brexit at any cost.
At any cost? I read that he wants to be in the customs union. So that's not Brexit at any cost, is it? They keep saying they aim to protect jobs first, which again means it's not at any cost.
I know you're disappointed, I am too, but don't throw logic out of the window. Otherwise you're no better than the hard right loonies.
No, not made up.... it's a view held in several quarters, example
If May's deal can't get through, and No Deal is unpalatable to both sides, then I still see a potential to press pause (however that is actually accomplished) and go back. And if the UK went back with different requirements - which may not yet be on the table because both Tories and Labour are still posturing over their red lines; and if (big IF) reality finally bit - then I'm sure there could be a different negotiation leading to a different deal being offered.
I can see a situation arising where May, faced with the abyss of no deal, suggests revoking or suspending Article 50. Her party would go into meltdown, obviously, but I could also see Corbyn trying to whip his MPs to vote against it too, rather than risk the Brexit he’s always wanted. In which case both parties would dissolve into anarchy
I could also see Corbyn trying to whip his MPs to vote against it too
There's another option - #labstain
Frankie Boyle on Brexit and other stuff.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/22/frankie-boyle-review-2018-forget-brexit
Meanwhile look who'll be giving the alternative Christmas message.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/dec/21/danny-dyer-to-present-channel-4s-alternative-christmas-message?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other
Christ alive, that Guardian article makes for depressing reading. We really are truly ****ed. Well done Jeremy.
Here's a thought - if there were to be a pre March GE with Tory & Labour officially supporting Brexit then what chance of the People's Vote MPs coalescing into a choice on the ballot paper? I know the libdems are the largest current option that offer this but for many they are still tainted by the coalition fallout.
Corbyn is a plonker, no doubt, but we shouldn’t get sidetracked.
Brexit is a Tory-caused, Tory-led weapons grade balls up. Brexit would not have happened under a Labour government as, although they do have a euro-split in their party and support, it has never been at the frankly unhinged and obsessive levels of the Tories.
You can bash Jezza on Brexit all you like, but every time you kick him, you should be kicking the Tories twice if not more.
We all know that Brexit is Tory party fault but Labour policy is not different.
Corbyn is not a plonker. He just doesn't want the same things as you. He is a very rare thing which is a politician that really does give a shit. Brexit or not, that is a huge thing. Can you imagine having a government committed to social policies? No, me neither. But it might be within reach.
BUT I am also committed to the EU. So this means that the UK political system had failed me since I cannot vote for anyone that will represent my views and has a chance of power. I have to compromise.
But then again, what is the choice? I'm not being asked to choose between EU or social government, because both of the main parties in my constituency are pro leave.
What to do...?
I can see a situation arising where May, faced with the abyss of no deal, suggests revoking or
suspending Article 50
It's all in the game y'all... I've been saying this all along. All it's going to accomplish is the money the public has already had to spent goes into the pockets of the rich.
So Labour claims that 60% of their voters want to Remain, then Jeremy suggests he supports Brexit. You are correct, he isn't a plonker.
And lots of people want to vote for a politician that represents there own views, Jeremy has now suggested in the Guardian article that he wants what 60% of Labour voters don't want. Does Jeremy have a cunning plan?
There's no cunning plan. There never was.
This is just a bunch of ****less British politicians protecting thier own interests whilst everything else goes to hell.
When are the clever people in the background or whatever THM used to call them going to jump out with a cunning plan?
JK Rowling having some fun with this too..
https://news.sky.com/story/jk-rowling-leads-criticism-of-jeremy-corbyn-over-brexit-with-biblical-tweets-11589016
Me too. He got me voting for Labour at a GE election for the first time
And by contrast I’m the absolute opposite. I won’t vote Labour again until he and Momentum are gone. I’m the middle ground Campbell knows Labour need to appeal to. Without that appeal they’ll be in opposition indefinitely.
Hey, I've admitted I was wrong! Won't be doing it again under this leadership.
And by contrast I’m the absolute opposite. I won’t vote Labour again until he and Momentum are gone
Who do people such as yourself go to now. Tories have lurched right, labour left and the LibDems have evaporated.
You now face the possibility of handing seats to Tories by not voting Labour. Are you happy to do that?
Like I said, the system is crap.
anagalliis_arvensis
When are the clever people in the background or whatever THM used to call them going to jump out with a cunning plan?
Sadly the only clever plan is Scotland's independence lifeboat.
We don't really want to see you guys up the creek without a paddle.
You now face the possibility of handing seats to Tories by not voting Labour
Yup. Not voting for anyone, whether parliamentary candidate or party leader, who helped Brexit. I don't trust their judgment and don't want them representing me. Fully aware that means my vote might not count when it comes to parliamentary seats… but I will from now on be voting on principle. I've seen what the Labour leadership have done in my name, with my vote, and I will not be one of the "80% of people who voted for a party supporting Brexit" again.
Ive literally lost the will to argue online on other forums or FB with Brexiters flawed lets leave at whatever cost. Its just pointless. I almost want us to leave with no deal to prove them wrong and feel the pain of it.. but it wont whatever happens it wont be their fault. Its always the fault of the EU, or the foreigners, or anyone else.
If the SNP choose to field candidates south of the border they'd probably do quite well.
AA - who to vote for is indeed a quandary. I voted LD last time and my wife green. No main party we believe in any more so went with our principles.
You now face the possibility of handing seats to Tories by not voting Labour. Are you happy to do that?
Yes, since the alternative is handing seats to Labour, who I don't trust on brexit any more than the tories. Simple as that. Change the leader, or even change the policy, and it would be a different matter. Compared to the decades of shit that brexit will heap on our heads, a few more years of austerity, or whatever other delights the tories have in store, is basically down below the noise floor as far as I'm concerned.
Listen to Rees-Mogg being corrected for misrepresentation on the backstop by Joanna Cherry (SNP)
Looks like our local Labour MP (remainer) is gearing up to run as an independent. He may be deselected as he backs a second referendum. We have Airbus and Rolls Royce locally which Brexit would shaft. Danger would be a split Labour vote would allow in a Tory Exiter.
That “80% of people who voted for a party supporting Brexit” is really coming back to bite us. It's been quoted to me by my Labour MP as part of the reason why she can't do anything about Brexit even though she supports Remain. It's really frustrated me that 16 million people have not had any effective representation in Parliament. The lack of leadership in challenging what they're doing is one of the main reason the Government have been able to get us so far down the road to chaos.
You now face the possibility of handing seats to Tories by not voting Labour.
Vote for whoever has the best chance of beating the Tories in your seat.
Corbyn is not a plonker. He just doesn’t want the same things as you.
Presumptuous. Unfortunately he’s a leaver, and therefore wrong.
Whatever your wants and desires he just doesn’t play it right often enough. May and the Tories are there to be held up to ridicule over and over again, yet he muffs his lines over and over again.
I know there is a lot to be said for spontaneity, but a good advisor would have him knocking in the goals for fun at the moment.
but a good advisor would have him knocking in the goals for fun at the moment.
Like what?
Are you suggesting he say whatever will win the most support? Isn't that what he was being criticised for earlier in the thread?
For all you know that's exactly what he's done - maybe his advisers have done the maths and called this the best course of action.
AA it’s LD. I live in one of the safest Tory seats that voted overwhelmingly to Remain but has a Leave MP. I vote to register my disapproval.
or even change the policy
So Labour switch to remain and lose 30% of their vote to Tories and get wiped out. Then we get Brexit anyway but it's neoliberal low tax **** the poor UKofA. Still a good idea?
Why do you keep on making that silly claim? Do you think that repeated assertion makes it true?
AA it’s LD. I live in one of the safest Tory seats that voted overwhelmingly to Remain but has a Leave MP. I vote to register my disapproval.
Pretty much the same as me in the last election. I'd vote for a stuffed pig if it could beat the Tories.
Those that are not intending voting Labour in some sort of barmy protest (particularly post Brexit) are basically choosing Brexit and a Tory Government. How on earth can that be just?
You have picked your voting intention based on one issue(albeit a powerful one) and are helping deliver a Tory Government.
Now think what are you doing to the bottom rung?
The centrists - who haven't suffered as much under the Tories are now upset because of what Brexit *may* do to their livelihood , now feel the need to penalise Labour and the absolute bottom end of society?
So Labour switch to remain and lose 30% of their vote to Tories and get wiped out. Then we get Brexit anyway but it’s neoliberal low tax **** the poor UKofA. Still a good idea?
But they would hoover up every remain vote. I’m sure the libs and greens would form a remain alliance with labour to end this shit show.
Those that are not intending voting Labour in some sort of barmy protest (particularly post Brexit) are basically choosing Brexit and a Tory Government. How on earth can that be just?
You have picked your voting intention based on one issue(albeit a powerful one) and are helping deliver a Tory Government.
I believe the phrase is throwing the baby out with the bath water. Very naive view of things as even if Labour were somehow in power after a Brexit I would rather have Labour intentions dealing with it that Tory intentions (more austerity hitting the poorest the most anyone?)
Also you can we stop going on about Corbyn being a Brexiteer - it was in Labour's manifesto that they accept the referendum result that we voted on in 2017.
Also you can we stop going on about Corbyn being a Brexiteer – it was in Labour’s manifesto that they accept the referendum result that we voted on in 2017.
Doesn't mean he can't still be a Brexiteer.
I would rather have Labour intentions dealing with it that Tory intentions (more austerity hitting the poorest the most anyone?)
I would too, but I don't think Cornyn is the person to do it. I firmly believe he would have done no better than May when dealing with the EU.
Doesn’t mean he can’t still be a Brexiteer
Well he's got a mixed EU voting record so it's not that clear cut.
mixed
I posted Corbyn's voting record a few pages back. It's out, out, out, out... for over forty years.
I have no vote but my New Year's resolution is to become a leaver. Like any resolution it wil be hard to keep and not last long but I think leave with a hard Brexit is increasing in the best interest of the two countries on which my family's well being most depends, France and Germany.
I no longer want Britain poisoning the EU and preventing EU legislation that will protect my interests more if mini-USA-Britain is no longer a member. Britain has used it's influence to make EU legislation more rightwing/liberal, more sylmpathetic to big business/finance, and block social, health and environmental measures.
If I get bored over Christmas I'll demonstrate how Britain has poisoned the EU, the weather here is fantastic though so it would be daft to spend my time going back over British business lobbying of the European Commission, British MEP voting and British-EU negociations over 50 years.
Why vote 55 times for more EU integration then?
If think you need to quote and go back and find my own post with Corbyn's record, Rone. Stop posting enigmatic questions with no subtance and work on convincing us with facts from reputable sources.
As far as I'm aware there haven't been just 55 votes on EU integration. But on his site he quotes
55 votes for, 24 votes against, 44 absences,
so he abstained or voted down more often than he voted in favour.
Anyhow this is what you shuld have posted in the first place so we could all judge for ourselves
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/10133/jeremy_corbyn/islington_north/divisions?policy=1065
His againsts and abstentions are telling.
Edit: when readign thos votes his againstas are often contradictory and conse=istently against the Tory government - much what you'd expect of Labour oppostion who are in the habit of voting simply to express opposition, sometimes a vote in foavour is also a vote of oppostion. Anyhow, an expale of his voting:
On 8 Feb 2017: Jeremy Corbyn voted to empower the Prime Minister to give notification of the United Kingdom's intention to leave the European Union.
Well he’s got a mixed EU voting record so it’s not that clear cut.
Rone, it is you that seems to think it is clear cut not me. You seem to argue that he isn't a Brexiteer because a pro EU stance was in the 2017 manifesto.
I am just pointing out that he could be a Brexit supporter despite this.
Why do you keep on making that silly claim? Do you think that repeated assertion makes it true?
It's not a claim is a hypothesis. If you think it's silly then show me why. Give me numbers.
Labour polled well because there was a glimmer of hope offered to the new voters.
Now that hope has been removed labour will be slaughtered. Labour’s best hope of getting in ,is to go full remain.
Britain: take your Isle of Mann, your Gibralta, your fiscal optimistaion; your zero hours contracts, your rich-poor divide; your pandering to the city and big business; your earls and counts and duchesses, dukes, and inherited privilege; your stingy greed, grab, grab, grab, cake and eat it, "I want my money back"; your illegal attempts to block EU pesticides rules; your resistance to environmental legislation.
Just go away
(sorry about the swear filter avoidance in my last sentence 😉
"Look, Jeremy isn't pro-Brexit, he just says he is, so vote to get him into power." Not. A. Chance. In. Hell.
Just go away
Don't forget that reform as regards making the Single Market more than the Common Market (and plans to include IP, digital and more services), bring in Eastern European countries to expand the EU, reform of CAP (lots more to do there) have all had UK pushing them on. The UK helped the EU become what is now… and yes, has been a brake in some areas as well. The EU won't be a better place without the UK… but I can see how everything that has happened since 2015 might make that opinion look like ________.
I think labour polled well in the last election as it was the best way to scupper the tories plans.
Now Corbyn is happy to treat me (as one of the 60%) with contempt, he can **** right off.
If we somehow end up with a GE (and lets be honest, it won't be because of some grand political manoeuvring by the beardy messiah), I'll find myself in a difficult position. I have a good local labour MP who actually seems to give a stuff, but if the official labour line is red unicorns, I have no idea how I'll vote (I've voted labour all my life just to give some context).
Problem being if I vote labour, I will now be doing so to stop the tories - and yet the beardy ones acolytes will just interpret that as a vote for a hard Brexit and a Venezuelan style socialist paradise.