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It would be the simplest answer...
Genius. Of course the thorny problems of a viable economy and currency still exist, but tbh, if this happened, I'd be lobbying hard for our office to relocate to Edinburgh.
how many nurses and care workers are on 30k ?
For clarity any staff nurse ( band 5) with more than 8 years service and who works unsocial hours will be over £30 000.
No new recruits at below band 7 ( charge nurse / senior specialist nurse) will be over £30 000
London you do get a chunk more, Scotland a little bit more IIRC
https://nursingnotes.co.uk/nhs-agenda-change-pay-scales-2018-2019/
From the article in that site
What’s attractive about this option is that no further EU referendum is required. It fulfils the referendum mandate for the UK to make the best leaving of the EU as can be managed while the remainder EU state of Scotland/NI tidies things up.
I reckon you would be on a sticky legal wicket with the above. We were not asked whether we wanted Scotland to remain in the EU in 2016.
What concerns me a bit more is that I reckon Scotroutes grasps the tongue in cheek aspect of the article, but I think others reckon this is a legitimate solution. I am coming round to another decision on Scotland's future, but if people are still getting their info from WOS we have no hope.
So 30k a year for a 5 year visa for skilled workers
If this is reciprocated, how many Brits in their 20s could go and work anywhere else in Europe? What if their career is in an industry that shifts away from the UK towards the EU, post our eventual slide out of the Single Market and Customs Union? I can see why this has been delayed for so long; our kids are being thrown under a bus to keep older people, who'd rather have boarded-up shop fronts than Polish shops in their market towns, happy.
One Radio 4 this afternoon they were talking to farmers about the potential impact of "no deal". 95% of lamb and 80% of beef produced in the UK is exported, mainly to the EU. No deal could result in huge delays at the borders - 3rd country status means we have to do additional veterinary checks plus tariffs added due to WTO - ironically, most vets employed to do the job in the UK are EU nationals. Anyway, it was suggested that Defra have contingency plans which could result in large scale slaughter of animals because of potential delays - 'dumping' on the UK market will result in a short-term price crash - the combination of both could be catastrophic to many farmers. The ERG MP they spoke to said it would be OK as they'd managed to negotiate a free trade deal within 6 months - by which time the damage will have been done.
Independence for England?
I've been saying that since the result was announced. Too much arrogance involved for them to do the decent thing though.
If this is reciprocated, how many Brits in their 20s could go and work anywhere else in Europe?
WHY R U PUNISHING US?
3rd country status means we have to do additional veterinary checks plus tariffs added due to WTO
For added LOLs: there aren't enough vets in the entire world to cover this.
That's nonsense Rene.
Hooray for cheese submarines!
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the maybot is going go for ref2
a. maybot
b. no deal
how do you vote ?
Citation /linky needed.
The maybot was stuck in a boot loop last time I checked..
Not her idea, but ministers and no 10 spads are briefing it to the press. See @Crazy-Legs post a few pages back.
Assumption is that back benchers (and maybe even the opposition) will amend to include a third option (referendum or EEA+CM) so the Tory leadership can't be the target of the "undemocratix" charges from the overseas owned press, and their own undead membership.
If the vote is for mays deal or no deal then I am voting for independence for Scotland 😉
I think we'll see a cross party coalition to force a commons vote on maybots deal (which technically ticks the box) and remain (which will be phrased in the context of extending a50 whilst we sort our shit out).
If the vote is for mays deal or no deal then I am voting for independence for Scotland
You seem sensible tj, at least you think it should be decided through a vote. Do you reckon May's deal would swing enough people towards indy? I know regardless of the noise from the DUP and how happy they would be at a no deal, this scenario will in all likelyhood see the end of the UK in its current format.
There seems resentment from some because the the rest of the UK has not declared independence from Scotland. That is swivel eyed loon territory.
The Queen could in theory, step in as we'd be talking about the break up of the UK.
She could technically dissolve the government and form a new cross party group for the interim.
Let's face it, unless there's a cross party VONC, and a reversal of brexit the UK will eventually be broken up.
Ni will be annexed and the Scotts will follow.
The Welsh aren't particularly pleased either.
Let's be clear (LOL) we are talking about the breakup of the UK here.
Dovebiker the Farming community voted overwhelming for Brexit, i live in an agricultural community and i have asked many what they hoped for post brexit (bearing in mind most export to the EU and receive significant subsidies) and i have not had a single answer....
They complain about red tape? Which will now increase for EU exports?
They dont seem to have a grasp on what the "Donald" will do to them with a "trade" deal.let alone Canada NZ Australia.
However i know why this happened, as a commumuty since the second world war they have been supported financially like no other industry and when stuff goes wrong (,foot and mouth,) they get a nice cheque. Towards the end of last summer as the drought began to bite they had started to lobby the gov. For "drought assistance" They belive that no matter what the gov will keep writing cheques to keep them afloat.
But and its a big nasty but WTO rules dictate a maximum subsidy of 5% of GDP per industry - or about 20% of the current CAP payment. Added to this tariffs ranging from 10 to 40%.
Beyond this JRM Gove Boris Fox will sell their arses and the Fishermans for the US services deal.
The only sane question would be Mays deal Vs remain but they will only work that out after arguing for months about the alternatives.
Mays deal Vs no deal, I would spoil my paper but already be working on my emigration plan.
There would also be riots.
2018.. What a stinker.
Just so folks know current CAP payment is around £93 per acre tax free.... and i know lots of Farmers with a 1000 acres.... not bad before you drag your arse out of bed the equivalent of a £140k salary.
The only sane question would be Mays deal Vs remain but they will only work that out after arguing for months about the alternatives.
but the maybots limited logic circuitry has already been hardcoded true to leave so that option will no longer compute.
I've always said there shouldn't be a second referendum, this needs to be turned around on the basis that Brexit is impossible to deliver in a way that doesn't do more harm than good.
Force parliament to vote on May's deal vs remain.
That's what parliament is for.
not bad before you drag your arse out of bed the equivalent of a £140k salary.
Sign yourself up. Kiss goodbye to weekend and a lot more, if you c an farm 1000 acres on your own it's going to cost you a lot in machinery and that is before you take a single risk on the weather or the international markets.
I’ve always said there shouldn’t be a second referendum, this needs to be turned around on the basis that Brexit is impossible to deliver in a way that doesn’t do more harm than good.
Force parliament to vote on May’s deal vs remain.
That’s what parliament is for.
Indeed. Rioting will follow but hey ho, small price to pay.
Ref 2.0 can either transparently rig the vote by asking people to choose between two types of Brexit(maybot/no deal) or Remain, or, I firmly believe, in a two-option in/out poll, Leave would win again, probably by more. The campaigning arguments for Leave will be spiced up by cries of 'betrayal' and 'don't let them steal our Brexit'...
If the vote is for May's deal or no deal, I'll be drawing a box for "remain", ticking that one, tying my spoiled ballot to a brick and putting it through a window of the Houses of Parliament.
oldmanmtb..... while I find most all your posts on this thread to be bang on target and pretty well informed as to have me agreeing with almost all you post, I am afraid you appear to have a proper chip on your shoulder about farmers. I can reliably inform you that the reasons you gave above for (approximately 60%) of farmers voting leave (not that far above the national average) are a long way from reality. Indeed I posted a long summary of the reasons about 100 pages ago in this post!. Also, subsidy is certainly not tax free. No idea where you get that idea. It counts towards your year end profits the same as any other income and will be taxable if the appropriate thresholds are crossed. As far as the value of subsidies, one can also argue that production of a reliable and affordable source of food is THE most important basis for a successful society. Perhaps more important even universal free healthcare, a free militia, free policing, free education.... all nothing more than subsidised industries by any other name.
However, I am in no way standing up for some of the more obscene ways in which the CAP has been allowed to develop into what it is today, especially in the UK. But that is perhaps a topic for another thread.Don't forget that 2 of the largest recipients of CAP money in the UK are the National Trust and the RSPB. Many local authorities are not far behind, closely followed by industrial scale landowning groups like Mr Dyson or Supermarket groups or various trusts. There are very very few "farmers" with 1000 acre holdings.
Let the racist idiots set fire to thier own houses and streets, it's a smaller price to pay.
You seem sensible tj, at least you think it should be decided through a vote. Do you reckon May’s deal would swing enough people towards indy? I know regardless of the noise from the DUP and how happy they would be at a no deal, this scenario will in all likelyhood see the end of the UK in its current format.
Before an Indyref 2, there would have to be approval from the UK Govt for a referendum. The SNP do have a "mandate" as that was part of the platform on which they were last elected. I don't reckon Westminster will be happy to give approval, so then it's back to whether or not Holyrood decide to do it anyway.
Numbers-wise, it's not clear. There are Europhobes on both sides of in the Indy argument. Many of the previous arguments have changed. I reckon we can safely say that the EU would be happy to accept iScotland into the fold given some of the messages we've been hearing. As evidenced by this thread, lots of Europhile Anglos would consider a move north of the border. On the other hand, given what we've seen of Brexit, there will be many with cold feet regarding unpicking all the treaties, trade agreements etc. It certainly wouldn't be simple, though an iScotland in the EU would simply inherit much of what they already have, especially if membership could be maintained (though mibbe not quite like the WoS script 🙂 )
Anyway - there are/have been lots of Indy threads. We really shouldn't contaminate this one.
Mikewsmith i run a non agricultural business that requires significant investment and risk, i don't get the following -
Subsidies that = a salary
Financial support when the shit hits the fan
A near 100% Vat recovery
Inheritance tax relief
A banking system that lends money based upon assets rather than profit.
No one can "sign up" to be a Farmer due to the fact that they have inflated land value to £10k an acre to leverage more borrowing.
Farming is a bubble and brexit might well burst it.
Numbers-wise, it’s not clear. There are Europhobes on both sides of in the Indy argument
That's the interesting thing up here. If I remember correctly the pro and anti EU splits were broadly similar throughout the support base of all the main parties.
Anyway – there are/have been lots of Indy threads. We really shouldn’t contaminate this one.
It is important to discuss some very real potential consequences for the UK following this EU referendum mess.
I personally would like to see this taken back to the people with Mays deal vs remain on the ballot.
No one can “sign up” to be a Farmer due to the fact that they have inflated land value to £10k an acre to leverage more borrowing.
Sure you can pick up a hill farm for not that much, if it's that much of a winner get yourself in there, of course you know everything you need to know about it as Welshfarmer pointed out.
I assume you will be putting a shift in on Christmas day, and New Years day, and ever one in between.
Not been to North Yorkshire or Northumberland Welsh Farmer loads of 1000 acre farms (some are hill farms)
I thought CAP was tax free my mistake.
I agree agriculture is very important, but i doubt the brexit brigade really give a shit.
Well my business provide a 365x24x7 service so yes i most likley i will be working over christmas.
My Father worked on Farms all his life, i was born and raised on a farm until i was 24.
I am married to a Framers daughter, i own a smallholding and drink most fridays with a farming community.
But what would i know.....
Not been to North Yorkshire or Northumberland Welsh Farmer loads of 1000 acre farms (some are hill farms)
Not that many 1000 acre farms in Northumberland, lots are smaller than that, I certainly know of one and I'll let you have the chat with my Dad about how you think he is getting something for nothing. A lot of those up there are tennant farmers too so no actual land owership to leverage, the Duke has a lot of land and a few other big land owners.
If you think 1000 acres of hill land is going to make you rich then you need to stop smoking what you are on.
Ref 2.0 can either transparently rig the vote by asking people to choose between two types of Brexit(maybot/no deal) or Remain, or, I firmly believe, in a two-option in/out poll, Leave would win again, probably by more. The campaigning arguments for Leave will be spiced up by cries of ‘betrayal’ and ‘don’t let them steal our Brexit’…
I cant see this. Yes, there will be a hard core 20-30% who will be even more greatly angered. I cannot see any number of people who previously voted remain swinging to a leave vote on the back of a 'betrayal' campaign. I can see people moving the other way though. Also there will be a new swathe of young adults who were unable to vote the last time. They are more likely to vote remain.
@epicyclo, I like those posts but I also like the irony of Hugo Ri****d choosing submarines for his metaphor, considering the family history.
It is important to discuss some very real potential consequences for the UK following this EU referendum mess.
So, if it was made clear that Brexit (especially a no-deal Brexit) might mean an iScotland, how do you think that would affect the result?
Never said you get rich in the hills and Tenent farmers are in a very difficult position. Although Hill Farms aint cheap - grouse etc
My point is that Farming has a "favourable" business operating model compared to most, which could disappear post Brexit.
As Welshfarmer points out the CAP has been abused and supported poor businesses as well as provde the Dysons of the world with a nice "tax" vehicle
The origional point i raised was in my community most framers i know voted leave yet could tell me why? So if anyone can shed light on this i am genuinely interested (so i can go to the pub on friday and tell them how it will pan out)
The Queen could in theory, step in as we’d be talking about the break up of the UK.
Wouldn't rely on Her Maj to save us, the booze has caught up with her, so I hear.
Not that the monarchy would step in, the gammon would explode!
Not sure scotroutes, possibly very little but its not grounds to exclude it from debate.
I disagree with Liam Fox in that headline (I have not seen the article). To go on without a second vote means we are tumbling towards a no deal scenario in my book. That will give Nicola Sturgeon every reason to push for another indy vote. A remain vote in a second EU ref would potentially scupper Sturgeon.
The origional point i raised was in my community most framers i know voted leave yet could tell me why? So if anyone can shed light on this i am genuinely interested (so i can go to the pub on friday and tell them how it will pan out)
And as was pointed out it was actually very close to the national average. Some will have been fed the same BS as the rest of the population, some will have believed the government who said it would all be maintained while chucking cash else where.
I have to say I don't agree farming is a favourable business, it gets support as it's vital to our national interest and to that of the EU.
There are examples everywhere of people abusing tax systems - C2W anybody?
Also most hill farmers do nothing with Grouse, again that takes more staff, time and effort to make that nice little earner you talk about.
Honest question do you know if the farmers around you are owners or tenants, or who owns what land?
Athgray - as Scotroutes say s really. there are independence voters who want out of the EU, there are remain voters who want iScotland. I do know some folk that if brexit goes thru would change their view from unionism to independence
I certainly woud vote YES to remain in the EU and more happily than I voted yes last time ( I am a brit)
I do know some folk that if brexit goes thru would change their view from unionism to independence
I know. I might be one myself. If we crash out with no deal, are there many people that previously wanted indy that would now vote to stay on the UK? I know there might be some whose Indy vote was to get out of the EU. They may now not mind being in a UK outside the EU rather than an SNP led Scotland trying to get back in. It's messed up times.
If this is reciprocated, how many Brits in their 20s could go and work anywhere else in Europe?
I doubt the Brexiteers would see that as a problem.
All farm owners round my way
Edit - Misread - it's different in many places so best not make massive assumptions there
Before an Indyref 2, there would have to be approval from the UK Govt for a referendum. The SNP do have a “mandate” as that was part of the platform on which they were last elected. I don’t reckon Westminster will be happy to give approval, so then it’s back to whether or not Holyrood decide to do it anyway.
In 1916 there wasn't a majority supporting Irish independence. WM incompetence soon turned that around. Question becomes has WM learnt its lessons, I suspect the answer is no.
I reckon we can safely say that the EU would be happy to accept iScotland into the fold given some of the messages we’ve been hearing. As evidenced by this thread, lots of Europhile Anglos would consider a move north of the border.
While the latter might hold water, the former is a bit of a stretch, IMO.
Its obvious in quotes from various EU leaders - and obvious politically - remember we have the fish and oil they want.
2018.. What a stinker.
You'll soon be looking back at 2018 as a time of greater stability and political unity.
remember we have the fish and oil they want.
Do we have final figures on those yet?
No chance TJ .
you would have to apply like any other countries .
Could be timely...
you would have to apply like any other countries .
Of course. How many other countries already have their legislation and standards aligned to the EU?
Anyone wishing to become a farmer might want to move to France, where there are plenty of going concerns for around 200k if you like working your butt off and can live on less than the SMIC.
https://www.proprietes-rurales.com/immobilier/-fr_VN12797.htm
Everyone knows it's easy to make a small fortune out of farming, you just have to start with a large one...
But every farm round here had vote leave billboards and vote Tory ones too: if the lot of them go bust I wouldn't shed a tear.
And May continues to be completely disconnected from the world around her
New EU referendum would break faith with Britons, May to warn MPs - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46586673
I wonder when she last spoke to somebody outside of politics.
You know, I've had a small element of sympathy with her until now (I know), but this is the last straw.
How this can be badged as breaking faith with a public who voted on a bunch of lies and deception in 2016, notwithstanding the 2 years worth of new voters, who will be the worst affected, is beyond me.
But most Leavers seem to believe that a second referendum (or third) is going against democracy. I suspect because they know that with the slight change in voter demographics it would come out as a close win for remain. Still if you ask them if they voted for this shitstorm that has been presented they seem to nod their head and smile like a Churchill Dog!
If mays current deal goes through are we subject to the forthcoming EU tax evasion laws?
Doubt it. Why do you think the likes of Arron Banks are so keen on a 'clean break'?
Under Mays deal yes - all new EU rulings will continue to apply during the transition period. Thats my understanding.
I suspect because they know that with the slight change in voter demographics it would come out as a close win for remain.
And a lot of people (me included) suspect that it would be another win for Leave. If there is one thing that really should be taken from the 2016 referendum it is that you should never ask the public a direct question about something they don't have a clue about and have not spent more than 2 minutes thinking about.
Guessing they only pick the really stupid answers when getting views from people 'on the street' but the TV should be full of them everyday just to remind us who the voters are and how dangerous it is.
views from people ‘on the street’ but the TV should be full of them everyday just to remind us wh
Isnt that called gogglebox
And a lot of people (me included) suspect that it would be another win for Leave. If there is one thing that really should be taken from the 2016 referendum it is that you should never ask the public a direct question about something they don’t have a clue about and have not spent more than 2 minutes thinking about.
Though opinion is consistently shifting towards remain by all measuring methods. The key part of any further vote is a clear question, at the moment it's May's deal or Remain if the mad idea of no deal is put to bed.
But next step is Mays deal vs parliament.
I know we are in a nice bubble on here but does anyone know a remainer who would now vote leave?
Though opinion is consistently shifting
Some papers are currently soft peddling about Brexit… this will change the moment a referendum is announced, and the Leave groups are far more ready than anyone else to make use of social media advertising, placement and reinforcement.
I keep seeing this betrayal of the people mentioned depends which side feels betrayed
Realistically its only 52 percent of the people some of which were duped.
I think a very large number would vote for mickey mouse as pm just to see the back of brexit
I cant honestly see anyone actually taking this seriously and the EU must be getting ready even themselves to tell maybot 2.0 to do one
Source for that? We have dismantled their major illegal apparatus there, at the moment leave is still a bunch of disparate groups who have not been able to agree with each other.
Faith? This is what it has become. In the absence of a shred of actual evidence for any positive aspect to Brexit, it's now all about faith. Well I'm a Brexit atheist. Show me the evidence.
Question - if Cameron hadn't promised he would accept the referendum result and act on it, what would the government (and parliament) have done with a 52/48 result?
robbo123biking
But most Leavers seem to believe that a second referendum (or third) is going against democracy...
It's amazing how they can spin with a straight face what is the most democratic means available to the voter as "undemocratic".
You'd have to be pretty dumb to believe that lie. Presumably that's the target market.
I know we are in a nice bubble on here but does anyone know a remainer who would now vote leave?
Yes I know one, she openly admits that she didn't consider what a mess it would be, which is fair enough, at least its honest.
Edit.. Oh sorry, I read that backwards! No I don't know anyone.
I know we are in a nice bubble on here but does anyone know a remainer who would now vote leave?
Not but I've seen some leavers abandon due to the mess and lack of unicorns. I've seen leavers double down with the it's all a mega conspiracy, with those bankers, businesses and politicians just making up bad news.
i don't believe that anyone who opposes a second vote cares about 'respecting democracy'
they care about the fact that if there is a second vote, the leave campaign will lose and they will have blown the only chance they had through a complete and utter failure to come up with a viable leader and a coherent plan to enact the slim majority of the 2016 vote.
OK, I am sitting in Germany and worrying more and more. I'm visiting my (English) mum in hospital for a month so on my own with time to think a lot and I wrote this.
The soul, the power, and the glory of Europe is in breaking down borders - this is what we should be focusing on.
Realistically its only 52 percent of the people some of which were duped.
FFS. Can you really not see the danger in a second vote? Much as I hate the result, in a 'democracy' (using the word advisedly), it's irrelevant why people vote how they do. The only important thing is that they do, and that their wishes are executed by those who represent them. Take that away and the whole thing collapses.
The fact that voters were ill-informed, ignorant, prejudiced idiots is not a reason to hold a new referendum. Much as we like to protest that things have changed, they really haven't. I recently spent a weekend at my parents in a very working class area of Newcastle. I can assure you that these people haven't changed their minds. I can also assure you that the anger they had before the vote which resulted in them voting the way they did, is small fry compared to how they'll feel if they are again ignored.
However bad brexit may be, in whatever flavour, I'm pretty sure it won't be as bad as what happens if we open the Pandoras box of resentment, hatred and bottled up aggression that exists in these places.
However bad brexit may be, in whatever flavour, I’m pretty sure it won’t be as bad as what happens if we open the Pandoras box of resentment, hatred and bottled up aggression that exists in these places.
We currently have a deadlocked parliament, we need a way out of it. This is one of those ways.
If the decision is made by a forced 3 line whipped, bribed set of politicians doing it to save their own skins it's not going to do anything but bring up those feelings of resentment again.
What's your practical way forward?
I can also assure you
Oh how i laughed