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They employ one person to do research that is pretty much the extent of their expenditure
Is she very well paid, or do the MPs have other costs related to this research?
Forty MPs have paid money to the ERG and claimed it back as ‘research’ over the period covering the David Cameron and Theresa May governments. These include current ministers and members of May’s cabinet.
But the true number could be higher. Other MPs regarded as ERG members have claimed expenses for “research services” on European issues without specifying the ERG.
According to a Whitehall analyst who has reviewed MPs’ expense statements for openDemocracy, the amount of taxpayers’ money received by the ERG is likely to be well above the officially listed quarter of a million pounds.
Awaiting the result, but still it doesn't answer many questions if she wins, there is a bit of me that thinks she is currently running around in a Harry Potter film
Waiting to use the get out of jail free card of time travel to nip around and fix a heap of little details that will suddenly make this all right again.
how much longer will the Mogg-ites carry on as if they had leverage?
Until they are out of power or the majority is such that they can be ignored.... hell in this situation the DUP have leverage
BBC interviewing Tory members of the public as usual
Well they did mention that on R4 as this is a tory cluster thing today, tomorrow we get to move this back to the broader debate. Though interviewing Tories is good for everyone else, the Sale lot look such a miserable bunch, especially the bloke not allowed on the talking table who is just getting pissed
How long does it take to sort and count 300 odd bits of paper?
Is Andrew O'Neill just reading the BBCs Brexit for Dummies webpages? Arse.
Depends how many pens you need to amend the result, we could just have had a twitter poll
Is Andrew O’Neill just reading the BBCs Brexit for Dummies webpages? Arse.
I know he doesn't even have a tory brexiter in shot to explain it to
Is she very well paid, or do the MPs have other costs related to this research?
It is a he.
I know I am out of touch on these things but I don't think £40K ish is very well paid, although pretty good money for a parliament researcher.
I know I am out of touch on these things but I dont £40K ish is very well paid, although pretty good money for a parliament researcher.
Depends on the quality of the research, some of the crap they come out with makes it read more like a bit of a google for some stuff before checking Damien Green's browsing history
Research group would imply more than one no?
she's won
No it is one researcher.
Comes to something when we're all delighted to keep the Maybot!
Haha Moggy is a terrible loser 😁
So, can we get back to the real job in hand now?
(And please can Mogster fall on his gilded sword?)
Not a great result for her.
Not a great result for anyone.
Ahem.
I suspect she’s going to win the vote and stay there for another year. All she needs is a majority of one.
Well, that feels like a waste of a day.
Is Christmas still on?
So.. back to hard brexit again.
Potentially 127 tories plus DUP would vote against the only deal.
Probably labour will vote against the deal.
The EU won't offer a new deal.
The tories plus DUP won't allow an election or referendum before March.
Unless over 100 opposition MPs vote for the only deal on offer:
All ending at the bottom of the cliff and hard brexit.
Haha Moggy is a terrible loser
He really is a weapons grade arsehole. At least some of the others dream of being in charge and so taking responsibility. He just sits there sniping away and avoiding any real responsibility.
The amendment to the bill agreed last week means that if there is a no deal, it has to go back to the HOC - despite the likes of JRM, the hard-Brexit loons are a minority despite the air-time they get - they could barely struggle to get 48 votes, never mind a parliamentary majority.
Unlikely things that I would like to happen to Jrm.
Lads holiday to Ibiza where he gets pissed and has pig ****er tattooed on his forehead.
I know I am out of touch on these things but I don’t think £40K ish is very well paid, although pretty good money for a parliament researcher.
So where does the rest of the money go?
Still want to see this link to a wiki list of ERG members. It would be useful. And I still don't see how this party within the ruling party gets our money to help it campaign against its own party's government and PM.
The WTO rules demand a border but the WTO won’t enforce it, of course not.
They don't, they demand a level playing field. The HMRC evidence to the select committee was they could operate a fully compliant - this is my paraphrase - border without having border infrastructure using a mixture of existing procedures. The same amounts would be charged so there shouldn't be any reason for other countries to make a complaint.
The EU seem to want a physical border presumably because either it suits their negotiating position, their risk evaluation is different, or some other reason.
The amendment to the bill agreed last week means that if there is a no deal, it has to go back to the HOC – despite the likes of JRM, the hard-Brexit loons are a minority despite the air-time they get – they could barely struggle to get 48 votes, never mind a parliamentary majority.
As has already been pointed out, it is not effective yet. The only thing that requires no further action from parliament or the government is no deal as that happens as a result of Article 50. Chances are something will be done, but not certain.
A short guide to percentages from Jacob Rees Mogg: 63% “a terrible result for the prime minister she must resign” 52% “a resounding victory hard brexit now”
Quite. He's a ****. But we've always known that.
So where does the rest of the money go?
What other money? Surely you didn't fall for the old numbers trick contained in the dreadful article you linked. It doesn't say £250,000 per annum, the Tories have been in power for over seven years now so £40,000 - £50,000 per annum for 7 years is over £250,000. I did encourage you to read the IPSA report. Annual budget is about £40,000-£50,000, around 25 MPs contributing £2,000 each -see page 13.
The EU seem to want a physical border
They seem to be insisting that there must not be one.
The EU seem to want a physical border presumably because either it suits their negotiating position, their risk evaluation is different, or some other reason.
I get you like to accept stuff that backs you up and disregard stuff that doesn't but the EU gets a say on it's borders. It's kind of a shared thing.
2k per year membership that the he claims back as an expense.
So the public are paying for Jacob rich snobbs extra curricular activities?
Makes you think...
The people that are desperate for a physical border between Ireland and UK without admitting it are the DUP. Sadly they have far too much of a grip over this government.
If we go WTO there will have to be a hard border.. Thier members won't tolerate differing deals and the EU won't tolerate it either.
Let's not forget the Irish who would also be really pissed off and have a veto.
It's not physicality possible to do this, it's not rocket science.
Hard brexit is really suicide for the UK.
Surely you didn’t fall for the old numbers trick
No, I didn't. Assuming your £40k salary is correct, and he's been employed for three years, that is less than half the money known/declared. And the real total figure is higher anyway… slippery hidden members that I'm trying to get you to admit exist. You know they do.
Where's the link to a Wiki list of ERG members?
Why do this group of Conservative MPs get money to further their cause of undermining a Conservative government?
the frothing of the hard brexit fans on twitter is very very amusing
Moggy really did look like his head was going to wobble off his shoulders
has anyone heard from Johnson yet?
So the public are paying for Jacob rich snobbs extra curricular activities?
Indeed, but it is £10,000 per annum to subscribe to the SNP one, IPSA did question the value for money - again see report
I get you like to accept stuff that backs you up and disregard stuff that doesn’t but the EU gets a say on it’s borders. It’s kind of a shared thing.
No problem with EU having the right, but if it is essentially a red line, it does bring into question their intent regarding Ireland.
He just sits there sniping away and avoiding any real responsibility.
I’d like to hope that someday, somewhere he will say the wrong thing to someone a bit handy, not have his nannies around, and will get a ****ing good hiding. I live in hope.
On a slight detour, but has anyone yet come up with a compelling and non bullshit reason why Brexit is a good idea?
Just wondering, as it does really seem ‘the point’.
Well I'd rather be a vassal state to the EU than this bollocks.
I was unsure whether May's win tonight was good, bad or indeferent..
Just wondering, as it does really seem ‘the point’.
So far today, Will of the people, becasue we said we would, manifesto, blah blah blah
Will you ask the people what they think?? Hell NOOO!!!!!
Well I’d rather be a vassal state to the EU than this bollocks.
what do you mean? the Brexit consumed Tory party are the very model of Strength & Stability,
Ill bet the rest of the world cant wait to do deals with us, our public school, oxbridge educated elite are truly a shining beacon of statecraft & competence
Cloudnine
Subscriber
Unless over 100 opposition MPs vote for the only deal on offer:
All ending at the bottom of the cliff and hard brexit.
Why say something you must know isn't true?
Just watching newsnight and to be fair Emily maitlis really got under jrms skin and got a bit paxman on him. Very entertaining. "You've let down the brexiters..." Haha
Their intent Mefty as you full well know is protection of the single market by not allowing an open border for non compliant goods to arrive thru - and the UK would have to put up a hard border to " take back control of our borders"
Of course NI has to stay in the single market or there has to be a hard border. there is no third way
You’re being far too cynical
All round the world they’re happy to see some backward gazing, insular, obnoxious creationist, anti-abortion, anti-gay, bigoted, sectarian orange order ****s setting U.K. government policy
No, I didn’t. Assuming your £40k salary is correct, and he’s been employed for three years, that is less than half the money known/declared. And the real total figure is higher anyway… slippery hidden members that I’m trying to get you to admit exist. You know they do.
He had a predecessor, it has been going for yonks. Para 63 of IPSA report says it has no other significant sources of income. It has subscribers, that is where the public money comes from, it is spent according to the rules.
The American health insurance companies will will be slavating over this new market I'm sure.
He had a predecessor
I didn't know that. Who was it? Which years? What salary?
Where’s the link to a Wiki list of ERG members?
Why do this group of Conservative MPs get money to further their cause of undermining a Conservative government?
100 members? I dunno. I suppose that tally is pretty close to this week's vote against May. Anyway… as I suggested before, many "members" are not "subscribers", and there is no published list of who they all are.
Just watching newsnight and to be fair Emily maitlis really got under jrms skin and got a bit paxman on him. Very entertaining. “You’ve let down the brexiters…” Haha
She barely held in her contempt for him during the interview but she kicked him the bollox with her mention of “the erg being a busted flush”, very happy to see him visibly squirm under direct questioning.
or indeferent
Oh yes, that’s very good. 🙂
I know busted flush is a card hand synonym, but I think it's particularly apt for JRM and the ERG, being pieces of shite that just won't go away.
Newsnights Voxpops with some old Tory party members last night still showed an amazing amount of self-delusion, theyre certain that May can now go to brussles & demand a better deal, after all this shambles, people still believe the crap the brexiteers told them 2 years ago
Now I admit to dropping in and out of this thread and this may have been covered but... is a lot of the current MP vote on the deal / T-May confidence vote all down to the Gina Miller legal action some time ago?
I dont want to go all JHJ but if she hadn't started the legal action, and been sucessful in securing a commons vote on the deal, would this have all gone through smoothly without the additional vote of no confidence on the PM?
Bloody democracy, eh?
Yip... Theresa was dead set against Gina Millars legal action because, for all her many faults, she's a realist. She knew full well that whatever 'deal' the EU were prepared to offer her would inevitably be a compromise (unicorns not actually existing, after all) and therefore hadn't a cat in hells chance of being voted through parliament, as it would, by the very nature of compromises, satisfy nobody.
This is still the case. Its a circle that can't be squared. One of many.
We're truly ****ed. There's just no way out of this nightmare that will end well
Gina miller was all about the triggering of A50, which is a different thing. This parliamentary approval is different. I think.
Just watched Maitlis vs Mogg.
So he's presenting it as a good result (for the ERG) because once you take the ministers and their aides out of the equation, 2/3 of the remaining membership voted against her.
But surely if those 146 or whatever it was felt that she / her deal was unacceptable, 1/ they could vote against anyway because it's a secret ballot or 2/ would have resigned* to have voted for the 'right' thing.
But they didn't?
* I suppose there is a third option, that they don't think her deal and leadership is right but voted for it anyway because they like their jobs. But then that would make then duplicitous, conniving, lying, two-faced....... I could go on (for some time, actually)
How do we deal with this man and his colleagues now? I'm inclined to approach in the same way as road ragers when I'm on the bike, just smile, wave, laugh, and blow kisses, but don't engage in any discussion.... and see how much he can wind himself up.
But surely if those 146 or whatever it was felt that she / her deal was unacceptable, 1/ they could vote against anyway because it’s a secret ballot or 2/ would have resigned* to have voted for the ‘right’ thing.
But they didn’t?
Nobody has voted for or against her deal because the vote was pulled, that is what kicked off this round of blood letting
OK, technically they were voting for / against her leadership, but a large part of that comes down now to her determination to stick to her deal vs the ERG's attempt to unseat her to put their vision forward (in 3 months despite not having made any attempt to explain their vision previously. Other than telling everyone else to **** off because they want to count their money)
It had nothing to do with any other aspect of leadership or policies; it was a one issue vote.
Theres presently yet another Brexit phone in on Five Live.
As usual its full of delusional, halfwitted gammons telling the politicians to 'just get on with it!'
Get on with what exactly? Dispensing with the rules of the EU and giving us everything we want, including the magic unicorns, because thats what Boris and the Daily Mail had assured them they were going to get
My favourite part of this whole thing so far has been the government desperately trying to avoid being told whether they can unilaterally revoke A50 or not.
"We don't want to know,
we don't want to know,
we don't want to know,
LA-LA-LA-LA-LAAAA-LA,
HONESTLY, WHAT PART OF WE DON'T WANT TO KNOW DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND???"
Theres presently yet another Brexit phone in on Five Live.
I especially liked the market trader.
It had nothing to do with any other aspect of leadership or policies; it was a one issue vote.
It says nothing about their support for her proposal just that they didnt want to go through a leadership election at this time and, possibly, that they would she would be amenable to changing her proposal to something closer to what they want.
Trying to convert it into support for her plan is impressive spinning. The one thing we can be sure off is that her plan doesnt have sufficient support and some who voted for her were lining up to vote against the plan.
~Can anyone help with this? I want to retain my full EU movement rights. I believe there is something in the proposals to the effect that if you are employed in the EU during brexit you can do so
I have family in the Netherlands who own a couple of businesses. Could I get them to employ me as a "consultant" basis so as to protect my position? any other way I can finesse this?
oooooh, I had to get a limosa to do some work in Antwerp earlier this year. I wonder if that qualifies me.
Cheaper than an Irish passport, although that is option B
Mogg was on the today Programme earlier and was talking about 'honourable positions' and suchlike.
Is this it? Is this the moment where the universe just disappears in a blinding flash of light? Or when we wake up, Bobby Ewing style, and it was all a bad dream?
I cannot, and don't think I ever will, get my head around the sheer wilful ignorance, blatant shamefaced lying and hypocrisy that has pervaded Brexit since before the referendum.
One of the great philosophers said that our experience of the world is only what we allow ourselves to perceive, but the sheer effort it must take to avoid all common sense and reason is remarkable.
Theres presently yet another Brexit phone in on Five Live.
Can't believe I missed it. The daily 5Live brexit phone-in has become part of my routine.
Aren't you retiring soon? Think you could probably move to NL for 5 years and bag citizenship, if you aren't having to work..?
One of the great philosophers said
Naughty, naughty, very naughty
Ha ha ha ha ha
Seems about the level of the debate
Interesting comment in the grauniad this morning
Given the resistance of both May and Corbyn to a new referendum, I'm beginning to wonder whether they know more than they're letting on. Either they have access to private polling/research showing a massive risk that a new vote would result in a no-deal exit, or something else about the breakdown of civil order in the wake of a remain vote. If it was as easy as having another vote to settle the issue, I'm pretty sure both would go for it, so something must be holding them back.
Cheaper than an Irish passport, although that is option B
If you want an EU passport and have a right to an Irish one through parentage/grandparent I’d get off my arse and apply soon. The post-referendum application increase was probably over-estimated in reporting, but in the last 12-18 months as the reality of Brexit has been settling in, applications from U.K. residents have increased markedly. The passport office had to employ an extra 250 or so a few months back just for checks on applications. Not an inconsiderable increase in manpower. Presently, even a grandparent born post-partition in NI entitles one to a RoI passport. Who knows what rules may change in the future - although presently, NI becoming part of the RoI is probably more likely than the grandparent rule being changed. 😀
Naughty, naughty, very naughty
Ha ha ha ha ha
Beat me to it 😂😁
molgrips - unfortunatly my retirement date is 25 months away - ie after leave date and after the end of transition if we get it.
I could retire earlier but I want to retain my full rights including the right to work in the EU
May can basically ignore the gammons now though, can't she? She won't be around for the next GE and will probably retire on a decent pension and **** off somewhere nicer than here. So, now she can push her deal as being the 'only' way to leave the EU that will safeguard jobs and stuff, no deal not being an option now, or suddenly at the 11th hour revoke Article 50 after a commons vote (the majority of MPs being pro-EU) and remain in the EU. What's the worst that'll happen? We'll have followed the democratic process so there'll be no 'death of democracy' and the handful of hard-line loons who walk among us who actually [i]want[/i] to crash out with no deal will be dead soon enough anyway.
So he’s presenting it as a good result (for the ERG) because once you take the ministers and their aides out of the equation, 2/3 of the remaining membership voted against her.
I think the message to Mogg is "you lost, get over it", as others have said in a related context.
I think the message to Mogg is “you lost, get over it”, as others have said in a related context.
"May means May", to quote one wit on facebork.
Given the resistance of both May and Corbyn to a new referendum, I’m beginning to wonder whether they know more than they’re letting on. Either they have access to private polling/research showing a massive risk that a new vote would result in a no-deal exit, or something else about the breakdown of civil order in the wake of a remain vote.
I don't think so, they have just both nailed their colours to the Brexit mast. May would end up looking foolish, and Corbyn wants to leave. Not as complicated as you make out. However Labour are very 2nd ref-ish currently.
May can basically ignore the gammons now though, can’t she?
To a point she can tell them they lost get on with it apart from
So, now she can push her deal as being the ‘only’ way to leave the EU that will safeguard jobs and stuff, no deal not being an option now,
Which she needs to convince about 350 MP's it's a good deal - we know it's not the only option too
https://twitter.com/tpgcolson/status/1073173541070217216?s=21
Tick. Tock.
Between them, the party leaders have killed off most of the options now, by just watching the time run out.