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Does anyone else rue the fact that these negotiators are not on our side?
The EU has some the best negotiators on Earth. The UK has people like David Davis, a man who would pay full price at DFS.
Speech was by David Lammy – MP for Tottenham
His speech has no substance in uniting the people but actually cause further division. Well done.
What I see (this is my opinion) is that Western developed nations, especially EU system, are trying again to exert their dominance over others in ideology. EU might say that they have changed for greater good since the last great wars, but in effect they are still trying to impose their ideology over others especially those nations (weaker or developing or less developed than theirs) with different culture and identities. Called it whatever they want but the fundamentals are the same. They try to impose.
All sides should Not give up but stand firm with their own beliefs. That is democracy good or bad.
David Davis, a man who would pay full price at DFS.
That is him in a nut shell, good analogy lol!
@chewkw
You may have a point if "the EU" was a separate entity from its member states.
Oh god... he's taken his tinfoil helmet off again
Having only heard Motorhead on the radio the I'm quite surprised that Lammy isn't an ugly white bloke with warts.
Yep, anyone who opposes brexit is the Enemy there, the speech was a good one, it's not about convincing the brexit loonies, they are lost, it's about reminding everyone who is wavering that they are getting nothing they were promised.
Ahem... blue passports?
Chewkw
David Lammy's speech may not unite the people of Britain, however he obviously feels strongly European, as do a significant number of remain voters, myself included. I think his words are aimed to try to bring about us staying in the EU which will unite a greater number of people. Half of UK voters will be happy as will other trading nations and certainly our fellow Europeans.
Believe me, Brexit will be the single largest factor in dis-uniting the UK.
Ultimately, do I think letting down the kind of people that voted for Brexit is a price worth paying to ensure unity with my 300 million fellow Europeans?
Most certainly yes! And I got the impression David Lammy thinks so too.
Obviously this would have to be done through persuasive argument and a second referendum. May's deal v staying in the EU.
Lol chewk.
The EU didn't really exist before the so called 'great wars' where European countries were regularly at war with each other to varying degrees.
There's been no war since, so on that basis alone the EU project has been a triumph of politics and cooperation.
Also chewk, why do you use the term 'great' in the context of war? What exactly do you think is 'great' about millions of innocent people being killed?
: markedly superior in character or quality
especially : NOBLE
great of soul
10a : remarkably skilled
great at tennis
b : marked by enthusiasm : KEEN
great on science fiction
11 —used as a generalized term of approval
had a great time
it was just great
Great - also means large.
See: Great Britain. Great Wall of China.
You must (surely) have heard of WWI being called the Great War??
https://www.quora.com/Why-was-World-War-1-WW1-called-The-Great-War-Whats-the-history-behind-this-name
Yeh we all know.
I was pointing out the abuse of the word in that particular context.
Typical brexiter /fascist tactics.
I would like to remind everyone that the killfile is extremely effective at improving your internet experience when a poster won’t refrain from posting nonsense, whether it’s malicious or simply because they’re a nuisance.
What happened to Mefty?
Usually well spoken, apparently in the know and well connected with Mps in that London.
Brexit not going as planned?
Ultimately, do I think letting down the kind of people that voted for Brexit is a price worth paying
Are they inferior to you then, less deserving as a result.
fascist tactics
pot/kettle
pot/pot/kettle
Kettle kettle pot pot?
Has anyone here ever seen mefty and chewkw in the same place ,at the same time ?Makes you think, eh?
Not inferior mefty, but certainly going down a course I completely disagree with. Remember, that if a second referendum comes around with May's deal or remain, now we would have something more concrete to vote for. You don't have to permanently tie your colours to the Brexit mast. You are more than welcome to change your mind, and it would be perfectly acceptable for you to do so.
Those that continue to spout the crap and chant project fear are the lost ones, I don't think anybody actually asked the Tory MP's disputing the governments analysis what work they had done on the subject or if in fact they had even thought about the problem.
Given some stark and real life options vs the fantasy land should focus the mind of those that can actually think for themselves.
That's the thing Mike. I have not heard a lot of argument against the government's analysis. There appears to be consensus that we will be financially worse off with any Brexit scenario versus staying in the EU.
That’s the thing Mike. I have not heard a lot of argument against the government’s analysis.
Yep its only the die hard fanatics but they continue to criticise without providing any evidence of why. The bbc had 4 different ones in saying the port and stockpiling story was just rubbish because it was obviously.
His speech has no substance in uniting the people
How would you try and unite the country? I don't think that's possible. May has stripped me of my rights, separated me from my friends, colleagues and allies, and damaged my country.
I'm not uniting behind that, ever.
It would be strange for someone who voted remain to be chained to the Brexit mast, that said, if there were to be a second referendum which I still think is an unlikely option, I would be minded to vote leave as I don't like the attitude of many remainers. This thread being instrumental in that potential choice.
Bit pathetic to vote leave and shaft everyone’s future to spite them though isn’t it
I would be minded to vote leave as I don’t like the attitude of many remainers
Sorry that's a crap reason for voting either way and is the sort of thinking that leads to daft results. Vote for what you believe to be the best outcome - I'd rather have a bunch of cockwombles working for the collective good than some righteous dudes running the country into the ground.
Will of the people though.
Apparently.
if there were to be a second referendum which I still think is an unlikely option, I would be minded to vote leave
See, it sounds like your colours are currently tied to the Brexit mast mefty
Bit pathetic to vote leave and shaft everyone’s future to spite them though isn’t it
Typical Brexiter mentality really.
Yeah but think of the unicorns
mefty, I posted that I thought that there was consensus on the economic argument that we would be worse off. Rather than return in a strop why not find some economic analysis to say the opposite. It may be out there and worth discussing, but failure to provide any only highlights why those currently on the remain side of the argument may be annoyed at us all becoming poorer.
Check out those high maintenance remainers, always seeking facts, analysis, research and reasoned evaluation to base their decisions on.
Yeah but think of the unicorns
The unicorns don't fare that well ether...
Surely its not hard to have a second ref
First ref wasnt legal binding
Second ref wouldnt be legally binding
This whole will of the people thing seems a bit well.... Bobbins
This whole will of the people thing seems a bit well…. Bobbins
It's as if it turns out not all 17 million people thought the same way, or had the same ideas, or read the actual literature. Potentially that many of their views were entirely incompatible with their leave voting mates.
Still we have been presented with the result of the simplest deal in the history of deals, or perhaps it's the deal presented by simpletons and fantasists (who have also abandoned the deal they negotiated.
Again I'd love to see some good detailed analysis of how the deal presented by May will enrich the nation and improve the quality of life and the economy. I'd settle for some that presents it as not a complete disaster.
It's simple democracy to have a second vote.
Many people are now better informed, and have discovered that much of the Brexit case was pure fantasy.
We have also had a chance to evaluate the competence of the govt that would take us out in to the Great Unknown...
After Carillon, Interserve now needs rescue.
Those 350m a week are badly needed.
I'm sure we could ask a couple of Brexie Tories why they are having financial issues, if it
a) Immigrants
b) The EU
c) Immigrants from the EU
athgray - People voted for Brexit despite the economic warnings, banging on about them achieves nothing, there is more to life than money.
banging on about them achieves nothing, there is more to life than money.
Except now it's hitting people's pockets, it will be hitting more and more people. As most sources show people are turning against brexit, selfishness will be one of the reasons people will consider their position, it's one of the most important factors people vote on.
But back to the positives... what other things apart from money will be better?
oh and people are not just banging on about the money
Plenty of arguments being made, plenty of things to talk about
athgray – People voted for Brexit despite the economic warnings, banging on about them achieves nothing, there is more to life than money.
Two points I would make in response to that. Firstly, I thought people voted for Brexit thinking they would be better off financially.
Secondly, in a discussion such as this I rarely mention finances, as there is a lot of to and fro and a range of economic arguments. I only did so here, because of the overwhelming opinion of EXPERTS on the subject.
I have regularly written about my feelings on this referendum and other recent referendums and finances rarely enters my argument. David Lammy summed up my thoughts and he does not bang on about money.
Surely its not hard to have a second ref
I still maintain it's not needed. Parliament could end this without a second referendum. But are there sufficient spines in the Commons?
They could legally end it, but it would cause serious credibility issues. If however they have a second ref and rig it by having three options, they could claim legitimacy.
Subscriber
They could legally end it, but it would cause serious credibility issues
Credibility isnt something they have
Firstly, I thought people voted for Brexit thinking they would be better off financially.
It wasn't a particularly important factor, if you want to get a reasonable understanding of why people voted Brexit, Matthew Goodwin has done a lot of work on it and seem to approach it with an open mind. This article seems to a good start. You will note it explodes many of the myths spouted on here.
Long article there.... Got about half way down it so far but there seems to be a bit missing there.
The reason people are trying to overturn and stop brexit is due to the massive harm it will do to the country, it is possible to do this while trying to fix society.
The conclusion many of us have come to is it will be much harder to fix the problems that created brexit from outside of the EU, hence the immediate focus is on the health and well being of the UK which can then get us back to a position of being able to move forward as a better place to live.
Outside of the EU we are screwed and divisions will increase.
Oh and....
The idea that those who went on to vote for Brexit were dispossessed white workers who live in fading seaside towns made for good copy but it was deeply misleading. Some Leavers certainly felt economically left behind, but many did not. Research has since shown that three groups were key to the Brexit vote:
Left Behind Leavers, who were working-class, struggling financially, almost never had a degree, were in their forties or fifties and most of whom did not identify with the main parties or supported the UK Independence Party.
Blue-Collar Pensioners, who were also working-class but retired, and so less likely to be struggling financially and tended to vote for Conservative.
Affluent Eurosceptics, who were much less likely to identify as working-class, more affluent, more likely to have a degree and tended to vote Conservative. While we hear much about the first two groups we have heard very little about the third.7
Sounds about what was posted on here.... Explain how brexit improves these people's lives?
And contrary to the claim that Leavers did not know what they were voting for, were misled, or engaged in an irrational backlash, an array of work has now shown how they shared clear and coherent preferences. Foremost, they wanted their nation state to have greater control over the laws that affect their daily lives and immigration to be reduced, which they felt could simply not happen so long as Britain remained in the EU.
So how does leaving the EU do that for them? What they wanted was not possible and isn't going to happen.
A masterclass in whataboutery, will achieve absolutely nothing, just repeats the same stale old arguments
and trying not the be the third unanswered post in a row but......
Discussing the reasons and underlying issues of the brexit vote and how to unite the country for a better way in a structural way is like asking this bloke how he wants to adjust his pension investments.
We have just over 100 days on the clock here and it's ticking.
The most important priority at the moment is resolving what happens at the end of March.
Given the likely outcome from the court case and the words coming from MP's remain is now actually a realistic outcome that can be put forward, it's been nothing but a pipe dream until now. This is a key point in time, this is the point where we put ourselves into a position to make society better.
Please tell me how brexit delivers this.
bugger is this another one....
First up can we hold the Mail to this one
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-46497186
Bigger bit is BBC Suggesting May is off back cap in hand to ask for a little more please from the EU.
Rule Britania, Britania begs the wave, Britons never never shall be afraid to roll over and have our tummies tickled on behalf of the mad brexies
mefty, I did not read the whole report, however from what I read it confirms the obvious. Below is an extract from the article you linked. The article carried on in this vein.
Leavers certainly felt economically left behind, but many did not. Research has since shown that three groups were key to the Brexit vote:
Left Behind Leavers, who were working-class, struggling financially, almost never had a degree, were in their forties or fifties and most of whom did not identify with the main parties or supported the UK Independence Party.
Blue-Collar Pensioners, who were also working-class but retired, and so less likely to be struggling financially and tended to vote for Conservative.
Affluent Eurosceptics, who were much less likely to identify as working-class, more affluent, more likely to have a degree and tended to vote Conservative. While we hear much about the first two groups we have heard very little about the third.
So Brexit supporters were broken up into 3 group's
1) poor white working class disaffected voters who turned to UKIP.
2) poor retired working class pensioners who tended to support the Tories
3)Affluent degree educated Tory voting eurosceptics.
Well **** me, what a revelation that was!!!
I was also shocked to read on the same report that leave voting was not mainly driven by financial concerns. Surveys showed that disaffection with the EU drove a desire to take back control of law and decision making processes to the UK as well as a desire to control immigration levels.
I certainly found it eye opening and made me realise I had it all wrong.
I have wandered around many forums and blogs and yes as detailed in the article by Matthew Goodwin most of his observations are correct. Now i am not going to echo most comments above about how will brexit fix this because it is a simple truth that it won't.
So once again i will expand my broader concern (please note i am from as piss poor working class background in tge North of England - the very shit hole he talks about)
So i am being blunt to all these disenfranchised/left behinds - exactly how much *ing opportunity do you want?
1. Education to the highest levels is available to all and dont anyone whine about student loans.
2. There is a national shortage of trades - tried getting a tradesman to do a job for you at the moment.
3. Setting a business up in the UK is really very easy- anyone tried this in France?
I have said this before highly paid unskilled and semi skilled jobs are rare and automation will remove the last of them. Fruit and veg picking, hospitality,logistics are already automating.
I have mates who sit in this camp "my kids dont have the opportunities your kids have" thats because you sat on your arse in the pub while i held down a full time job with 4 kids and went to university part time, thats because when you got a few quid you pissed up the wall in Benidorm while i was digging the foundations out for my house. Thats because you told your kids university is a waste of time yey i have one kid who earns 3 x the national average at 28.
But above all this is the simple fact that regardless of the vote the same bunch of *s are still in charge and have more capacity to screw over poor people.
If we are going to be very very honest there is a significant part of our society that has no value going forward. This is reflected by JRMs cheap shoes and Tim slashing 37p off a burger. So we had better make sure they have enough benefits to sit in the pub and add more wealth to Bet 365
The irony of this whole shambles is that large parts of the brexit camp will bear the brunt of this -
Farmer's, pensioners and the piss poor all voted for this so when Trumps agricultural taps are opened, the NHS is "Americanised" and all of Amazons jobs are automated then it becomes interesting.
This will be no country for old, poor, unskilled people.
The double irony is that lots of people on this forum are likley to do well out of brexit. I think my business will probably grow in the medium term after brexit - but i would always vote remain regardless.
So the above makes Matthew Goodwins article no more than a set of very obvious observations.
Just a heads up for anyone in London, Tommy and his gang of racists will be out marching today
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46495595
Hope he isn't too lonely there, and that they all make it around without getting heckled and asked some serious questions.
1. Education to the highest levels is available to all and dont anyone whine about student loans.
It really isn't.
Education has precisely the square root of **** all to do with brexit or the EU though. Except perhaps ERASMUS being a nice opportunity for done.
The reasons I've heard for brexit.
Nasty Nigerian nurse.
All the fish caught in Cornwall have to go to central eu fish hub to then be sent back.
Eu people claiming benefits and living in mansions at our expense.
P.s amongst our shop keeping fraternity "all the shop lifting is done by eastern europeans except when Epsom Derby is on in which case it is done by pikeys."
All of the shoplifters i have caught have been nice ,well turned out, english ladies.
Another one I heard was the NHS being ruined by excessive immigration.....there was I thinking it was 10yrs of Tory austerity that f*kd it..
All of the shoplifters i have caught have been nice ,well turned out, english ladies.
Maybe you're just too slow to catch the pros 😉
Maybe you’re just too slow to catch the pros 😉
Believe me, Mrs Zip only has to look at you to know if you're up to no good.
my mother was an ardent leave is now going to abstain if there's another ref.
Ransos why is education to University level not available to all?
I left school with one CSE and my old mans only advice was as long as you can sign your name and count your wages thats all you need?
I sharp worked out during Mrs Thatchers reign that those that got by had property and an education. It took me 12 tears of part time education to end up with an engineering degree.
Education is everything and i dont just mean "school learning" more than half of this country is very poorly educated for a first world economy.
Ransos why is education to University level not available to all?
For the reason you don't want to discuss.
So do you understand how the student loans/graduate tax works? Why is this a problem to poor students (the support is still greater for those with less cash?)
I do believe fees are way too high, but regardless it is a lifetime investment.
I’m poor (awaiting universal credit) and yet I’m studying a degree
So do you understand how the student loans/graduate tax works?
Yes.
Oldman has a point - you’re rarely disadvantaged by being better educated.
That said, please note that not all degrees (even in the same subject) are anything like equal.
Why is this a problem to poor students (the support is still greater for those with less cash?)
Because they are likely to need to borrow even more money.
my mother was an ardent leave is now going to abstain if there’s another ref.
What are her cited reasons?
Oldman has a point – you’re rarely disadvantaged by being better educated.
Of course. Do you think that is helped by the current funding model?
What are her cited reasons?
she didn't want to talk about it.
Part time minimum wage job... just like all 4 of my kids did or are doing - most students have 4 months off over summer and thats £4.5k tax free on minimum wage.
Its just a shite excuse...
Also as IGM points out do a degree that has a value like business, engineering etc.
most students have 4 months off over summer and thats £4.5k tax free on minimum wage.
Provided your parents are letting you stay at their place and feeding you no?
Just out of interest, have you asked any poor students about university funding?
Forgot to mention bursaries - £1000 at Northumbria Business school if you get a first in year 3.
Part time minimum wage job… just like all 4 of my kids did or are doing – most students have 4 months off over summer and thats £4.5k tax free on minimum wage.
Assuming you can find a full time job for the whole of summer, a very big assumption indeed. Rent and food would take most of it if parents are unable to provide it.
Both my daughters have university friends that come from miserable backgrounds- so yes and i dont for one minute think its easy and i never said it was, i just said it was available.
I know better than most what it takes to get out of that type of background, but i didnt sit and whine about the indudtrial wasteland that Maggie left behind. When your poor you have to work 3 x as hard as the middle class and 10 x harder than the landed gentry.
I drink in a pub that is full people who have inherited land, business, property. All i inherited was a funeral bill, but i am sure i can out graft and outhink most of them.
Sitting and using student loans and the current funding model as an excuse to become a "left behind" is complete bollocks.The same argument is thrown at buying a house - they are to ezpensive, the deposit is too big...
Your right Ransos its not ****ing fair but it has always been the same except maybe for a few golden years in the late 60s.
Thatchers gov. dismantled our industrial heartlands and created nothing to replace it except home ownership and shopping. Now we can sit on our arses amd moan but it changes nothing that has happened.
Unions were always pro education as they undestood the value, they even sent members kids to private school.
Education Education Education..
One of Jezza's cohorts has just been on Pienaars politics outlining the labour party's Brexit policy, such as it is.
If labour had been allowed to negotiate this deal then the EU would have been happy to disgard all the things they wouldn't have been happy to disgard for Theresa. An end to freedom of movement, maintaining all the advantages of access to the single market, while not being in the single market
Having cakes and eating them. Cakes for everyone! Hurray!!!!
Sitting and using student loans and the current funding model as an excuse to become a “left behind” is complete bollocks.The same argument is thrown at buying a house – they are to ezpensive, the deposit is too big…
It is a matter of fact that higher education and housing are both far less affordable than when I was starting out.
Agree but tax free allowances are proportionally much more generous, interest rates are a fraction of what they were, help to buy is a double edged sword in some cases. I still had to raise a 10% deposit back in 1985 which was £3300 and i was taking home £90 a week so more than six months wages for a deposit.
I also paid all my fees for my HNC HND and Degree.
^Look, I get that you grew up in a hole in the road, on a diet of powdered glass, and worked 27 hours a day from the age of two. Regardless, you seem to assume that if you're now comfortable, then everyone else can be too.