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The fate of the dollar also effects us.
Loook!!! A squirrel!!!
We're talking about disruptive unilateral action by our government, based on a narrowly fought referendum that was not backed up with a plan of action.
The fate of the dollar also effects us.
Not once we put up the walls, brick up the tunnel and explain to the rest of the world how much they need us
The world will rejoice as it accepts Pounds Shillings and Pence as the currency we should all be using, managed by the only bank that matters.
Or we shall continue to be part of a global market which means things like Trump having a hissy fit impacts us harder.
But we should see what TM and her mandate can deliver before deciding what to do, who knows she might find the unicorn farm
Someone is proposing joining the dollar???
Squirrel !!!!
The government was clearly behind remain. They spent money on it - tut, tut. Both parties multilaterally campaigned to respect the result subsequently and increased their share of the vote too. As remainders we campaigned to remain part of something that has still to have a plan and is full of internal battles. It creates significant inequalities and major players break the rules consistently. So we should at least be "consistent" ourselves. To be otherwise is hypocritical.
So we have respected the result, TM has had over 2 years to sort out her plan and deal.
There is nothing hypocritical about checking what she has delivered is acceptable to the people is it?
If the people vote to accept a deal then that confirms their intent.
If the people vote not to accept the deal then it means the majority didn't want it and more problems are prevented.
It's almost as if some people have a lot riding on brexit happening and the dips/crash it will deliver.
As remainders we campaigned to remain part of something that has still to have a plan and is full of internal battles. It creates significant inequalities and major players break the rules consistently. So we should at least be “consistent” ourselves. To be otherwise is hypocritical.
No it isn't. At no point was there any question of Remain bringing about any change in the way the EU is run, or our dealings with it.
Respect the result! You are kidding. The elites and many here are yet to pass through denial yet alone acceptance and have vowed to do everything they can to ensure that the result is not respected.
Current theme while talking to my Brexit voting relatives is that they can’t believe how badly our politicians are handling the Leave process
It was never going to work; they have put themselves in an impossible position. Article 50 was written to make it so. There's no leverage to negotiate with once we've said we're leaving. If you walk into a car dealer and say, I'll definitely buy that car, lets negotiate a price, how well do you think that negotiation is going to go?
The elites and many here are yet to pass through denial yet alone acceptance and have vowed to do everything they can to ensure that the result is not respected.
Who are the elites?
Many people wanted to ensure that all steps were legal and constitutional, while respecting a parliamentary democracy. That is a noble effort in these current times.
The vote has been respected. TM has been able to negotiate her brexit deal (well she has just collapsed at every tough bit and given in as predicted)
Next step examine the deal in the same way any other bill through parliament would be.
What do you have riding on Brexit going ahead THM? You seem to have a lot of skin in the game
THM is a busted flush, despite his supercilious attitude his inability to correctly understand the economic impacts demonstrates that he doesn't actually have much of a clue about what he's talking about.
The people who failed to plan for the change in public opinion and failed to present a positive case for membership of the EU
the vote will have been respected the day we end membership of the EU
skin in the game? Interest in how we will continue access in theory and in practice and what a new model will look like. Exciting times ahead. I like change and working out how to respond.
Why wouldn’t you and your kids be able to work in the EU? The EU has millions of non eu migrants every year.
You and also Jamba fail to appreciate the difference between visa-based migration and free movement.
Non-EU migration is not open to everyone. You have to qualify for it. Before I was married to an American I looked into trying to move to the US. Now, you might say that tens of thousands of people migrate to the US every year, so why not me? Well, the list is long. You only qualify for certain reasons, and despite being highly skilled in a demand area, I qualified for none of them. So you cannot simply decide to go - you ALSO need to have a way in, and these are most emphatically NOT open to everyone.
I saw one forecast that projected that the E7 economies could be double that of the G7 economies.
Alright, but might the EU as a whole not be able to strike better deals than the little UK? Are the EU not pursuing trade deals with the E7? I thought the EU was meant to be neoliberalist? Surely they will be in favour of free trade if so?
Exciting times ahead. I like change and working out how to respond.
Unfortunately those who struggle to eat each day won't find it so exciting.
So how to make money out of the UK stumbling then.
Opinions show brexit is not not the popular opinion. It is shown by the unwillingness to even consider asking people any more. Perusing a course that people don't want is political suicide, it's dangerous for the country and will hurt a lot of people.
Less exciting than not being able to eat now?
I've worked out how to respond, it involves Estonian e-residency and a move/reincorporation of my company over there so we can continue to access EU funding and collaboration opportunities. Just a few tens of thousands of pounds in taxes going overseas, no-one in power is going to lose any sleep over it (it's more of a hobby than a real job), but it all adds up.
Of course it may not be necessary, the govt has said some vague words along the right lines, but vague words butter no parsnips.
Respect the vote?
The referendum was based on lies and corrupt money, putting an uninformed electorate in a position they should never have been in in the first place. Any decisions around leaving / remaining in the EU should have been made in Whitehall under proper scrutiny by the people we've democratically voted to make those decisions for us in our best interests. We discussed this months ago, "the people" aren't equipped to make that kind of decision and what they - we - think we "want" is an irrelevance. I want a free solid gold house and never to pay taxes again, does that make it a good idea? Shall we have a vote on it?
I acknowledge the result and I accept it, but I sure as shit don't "respect" it. It was an insane folly from the outset.
Enjoy captain sounds exciting
mike still the same argument that lost last time - move on. You need a positive message. Fear doesn’t work
Next step examine the deal in the same way any other bill through parliament would be.
Which will happen, but the difference is, if a Bill is not passed nothing changes, if "the deal" isn't approved we leave without a deal.
Be careful what you wish for
You need a positive message. Fear doesn’t work
Stay in the EU, you can have food AND Medicine, thats positive.
Nowhere near as positive as vote leave or millions of dirty immigrants will kill you and your family.
If none of the messages are working why are more people now pro remain?
Remain has been ahead since about April 17 I'm amazed that you have not picked up on that at all. I'm stunned that you think the message is failing as the complete shambles of a government fails to negotiate anything that keeps anyone happy! So if the polls are showing remain being in the majority what has been swaying people apart from the facts and messages that have come out?
Which will happen, but the difference is, if a Bill is not passed nothing changes, if “the deal” isn’t approved we leave without a deal.
If it comes to that I'd expect some emergency legislation being passed to deal with it. Especially if there is very little public appetite for either option
Any decisions around leaving / remaining in the EU should have been made in Whitehall under proper scrutiny by the people we’ve democratically voted to make those decisions for us in our best interests.
They were, Parliament voted to exercise Article 50 by a substantial majority.
Daily Mail editor changes shortly too - that'll be interesting in terms of the general message.
Even the Daily Star are leading with a vaguely anti-Brexit message today.
If it comes to that I’d expect some emergency legislation being passed to deal with it.
Who is going to sponsor the relevant bill?
Are you suggesting no food and medicines after Brexit. Shit, you may be correct. We should be very afraid.
A new vote
Do you want to have food and medcines?
Do you want to end membership of the EU?
ok lies and deceit aside, you could be on to something there. Even the oldies might fall for it
Who is going to sponsor the relevant bill?
Lets see how bad the deal looks
Are you suggesting no food and medicines after Brexit. Shit, you may be correct. We should be very afraid.
Nah just trying leave tactics of promising anything I feel like. But the real question is if the facts emerging (or fear as you like to call them) don't work why is remain the preferred choice in the polls and has been for over a year?
Its really bad, who is going to sponsor the bill?
Guess we would find out, lots can happen in there, vote of no confidence in the government for example, DUP getting pissed off so lets just wait and see.
It's weird to see people who claim to have voted remain, so desperate to deliver something they can't define to an electorate who don't want it anymore. It's like some kind of political masochism. Unless it benefits them personally of course.
It can’t be Corbyn. He is a conviction politician who has commited his party to a (jobs first) Brexit. Ditto the Tories.
Enter Chukka stage left (exit unproven allegations stage right) with a new time to shine...
Brexit exiting ?
Only if it doesn't affect your life like being allowed to live and work in the UK with your UK family.
Your sense of superiority and invincibility is very high.
So still the wise ones can't tell me how public opinion has shifted so much. While the messages being used don't work.
Don’t believe the scare stories. I have lived and worked in the Eu and elsewhere in them world.
Nothing to do with superiority. Just stick to basic facts not fear.
The point of the question is, of course, that you are reliant upon the Government to sponsor the Bill if it is going to have any chance of passing into law, because that is the only way sufficient time will be made available. A very important lesson in the importance in having the power to put forward legislation.
I am not particularly desperate to see it happen, but I see it as the inevitable consequence of what has already been put on the Statute Book.
So still the wise ones can’t tell me how public opinion has shifted so much.
I am sceptical it has, when John Curtice says there has been a decisive shift I will believe it, but he hasn't to date.
The whole bacon butty thing has been sorted though, right?
We'll still have bacon Butties in April?
Well the facts are that at today date I would not be guaranteed to stay and live in the UK. End of.
Yeah but you are foreign and we voted against that. Though as more of the truths come out the worse it sounds. Getting a much harder sell.
Obviously it was the Will of the People and we all voted for it and are united behind it. Until the tories change their minds at which point something else will be the Will of the People that we all voted for and are united behind.
Have labour already changed their minds then? Missed that. And here was me thinking corbyn was good for his word. I could have sworn he was behind respecting the vote. Even more than the nasties in fact
It can’t be Corbyn. He is a conviction politician who has commited his party to a (jobs first) Brexit. Ditto the Tories.
Just what is that? Is it any better than a Red White and Blue Brexit? How will either party fulfil that commitment?
Not sure. But good to see someone with a positive Brexit vision. Bravo Jezza
the question is more how would either party go back on their commitments
Have labour already changed their minds then? Missed that. And here was me thinking corbyn was good for his word.
Well like a democratic organisation people can propose things and vote on them at their conferences. People are also able to revise their positions based on an evolving situation - not we have stopped burning witches as that turned out to be a bad idea.
Can you imagine only being able to hold one position despite receiving new information?
someone with a positive Brexit vision
Ha ha. We've been fed plenty of positive Brexit fantasies over the past few years.
And now we have the doomsday versions - fantastically awful
Sorry what is the positive version? Apart it being a bit exciting not knowing what stuff will cost after Brexit.
Jezza is going to use it to create jobs. He’s mentioned it several times. Kier never looks convinced but there you go
THM,
You mean the Govt's own analysis of 2-8% loss of GDP? Some other analyses put that as optimistic.
Or was it the stockpiling of medicines and portaloos along the M11? I thought you were encouraging people to prepare.
Here you go with Jezzas vision:
But Labour is ready.
Ready to deliver a deal that gives British businesses and British society the chance to thrive in a post-Brexit world.
A deal that will allow us to upgrade our economy through public investment in infrastructure and high skilled jobs
A deal that will make Britain a centre for science, technology and research, attracting the brightest and best from around the country and the world, through strategic investment.
A deal that allows us to transform Britain into a country with the strongest rights and protections, and ends exploitation and undercutting in the labour market.
A deal that allows us to become a country that values and protects its public services and invests in its communities.
And a deal that will allow Britain to be a safe and outward looking country, strengthening friendships and working with allies to create a better future for our country, continent and our planet.
Sounds great doesn’t it. I hope we hear more at conference comrades
Look! A squirrel! And a Euro!
It gets better
Instead, Labour will negotiate a tariff-free deal with the EU, which will benefit both sides, and we will transform our economy for a post-Brexit Britain through a new industrial strategy, that will use powers returned from Brussels, and will rewrite the rules of our economy, so that it serves the interests of the many rather than the few.
No wonder he’s doing well in the polls.
Sounds great doesn’t it. I hope we hear more at conference comrades
and as plausible as the others, which is reflected in public opinion.
Look! A squirrel! And a Euro!
Quite.
Kier never looks convinced but there you go
That's because it falls to the likes of Kier to deliver the nebulous policies put forward by their leaders.
Jezzas policy (is it a policy, or just a selection of words) would seem to involve the same amounts of magic fairies and unicorns as David Davis Irish border 'solution'
What a choice eh folks?
CAKE FOR EVERYONE!!!
And now we have the doomsday versions – fantastically awful
Well, to be honest, in response to all the examples of the horrendous problems that the U.K. will face if it crashes out without a deal (the NI horror show being just one example) I haven’t read one sensible outline of how any of these can be sorted out, just a lot of variations on “it’ll all work out don’t worry” and unsubstantiated claims of rosy future benefits of one kind or another.
Like your (teamhm) posts, in fact... 🤔
Horrendous. That’s quite an understatement. Do you not have faith Woppit?
Just been hearing about someone's son who is going abroad to live and work for a year. Sounds brilliant. However he's only able to do it because he's a dual citizen. Makes me sick to think that my kids will be denied the opportunity to do that on their own terms.
Sure, there might be some kind of temporary work program to get you work as a dogsbody for some company enrolled in the scheme, or some agency looking g to exploit kids, but that's hardly the same thing.
THM opined
Fear doesn’t work
I beg to differ. It’s just fear of immigrants, trumps fear of economic downturns.
Just need to pick the right scary story kid.
People think the immigrants are an economic downturn.
Yeah, but, because Cameron/Blair/whoever couldn't/didn't persuade them that the opposite was the case, we need to now pretend to agree with them. Or something. According to THM. Or we keep at painting a positive future, either inside, or via a close relationship with, the EU/EEA. Fortress Britain willl be worse than Britain in Europe… to avoid it, keep making the case. Hard Brexit will only happen if the lies claiming it is now inevitable take hold. It isn't. It's a political decision, and has not been, and will not be, backed by the people of the UK.
Yeah, but, because Cameron/Blair/whoever couldn’t/didn’t persuade them that the opposite was the case
Or actually do something about the problem...
Blair (who I never voted for) brought in the minimum wage, increased investment in deprived regions, increased spending on the NHS… etc. Probably a better record when it comes to doing something about the problems that people mistakenly blame immigrants for than Cameron (or whoever I did happen to have voted for).
He also renegotiated the EU rebate, which France especially wanted stopped or at least reduced.
Blair and brown spent a shed load of money which made people happy but with the following global situation created a sizeable deficit.
Cameron cut back on services but still spent a shed load of cash and everyone got sad...
neither were bothered about the influx of net contributiors from Europe because they were net contributors. The trouble is people need someone or something to focus their blame on. Pro Brexit people gave a handy vehicle for this.
one of the guys at work was talking about American healthcare said that things will only get better once the situation is so bad that there is s revolt and people demand a solution. The biggest jumps come after horrible conditions that force people to come together and work for better lives. Often these are wars or other disasters... Brexit could be that for the UK. 10 to 15 years of hell where every service fails or falls down and then the establishment of a new system.
Not going to happen.
It'll be shitter than it otherwise would have been… but the money and effort to prevent "years of hell" will be found…
…of course if you find yourself in a difficult position that could have been alleviated with that redirected money and effort… well… blame immigrants or something.
Mol. Why is someone not able to go overseas for a year?
How do you get a work visa THM?
Apply for one
And if you're refused?
You're being a smartarse here, you know full well there are restrictions on who can get them in most countries.
Whose fault is that? Personally I do not doubt that my kids will be able to work overseas if they want to. I certainly hope they do as I enjoyed it very much. I won’t be telling them they can’t.
Whose fault is what? This conversation will go quicker if you make your point 🙂
If countries refuse access - as you claim - whose fault is that.
THM in an I'll be alright shocker ....
I'm sure the people doing bike guiding or manual jobs will be just fine applying for a visa or heading out to travel for a bit.
If countries refuse access – as you claim – whose fault is that.
It's a consequence of the visa restrictions of that country. Where are you going with this? That it's my own fault if I don't meet the requirements?
You do exaggerate mike.
mol it’s not me pretending that kids won’t be able to work or travel abroad
Remember rich people get to be ex-pats and float around the world as they wish. Only the poor are immigrants.
He wants you to say it's the other country's fault, the EU's fault, not the fault of the UK for precipitating this situation.
You do exaggerate
Today I can get on a plane in the morning and start work in any eu country tomorrow. Know my rights and have some kind of health care provision.
It won't be that easy and will probably reflect how shitty the UK plans to treat immigrants.
Of course the comical Ali meme would have been quicker to post
mol it’s not me pretending that kids won’t be able to work or travel abroad
I've explained this to you several times before. They won't have the RIGHT to do it. That means that they only get to do it if they're lucky. Some people will be able to do it, but not everyone. I write as someone who's tried to work in a non-EU country and failed, despite being a skilled worker.
We will get the crumbs, whilst others eat at the table. Mobility for us will be worse, you know it will be, so why pretend otherwise? What point are you trying to even make?
If they think it’s down to luck then you are correct.i hope your kids don’t believe your second para ^.three hours ago