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If they dont learn then they and their children will live in shit and misery.
Sadly. so will the rest of us.
Oh and don't respond to dickens he is a cut and paste right wing troll.
The people who voted for this, who were conned by Boris, Nigel, Aaron, JRM et al need to understand the implications first hand.
No they really don't. Will you stick around to see that happen?
And yet, IGM, they won, we lost. Think about it.
No point abusing the oppo until we have realised why they beat us. If we still think it's lies and bus, then we remain doomed not them.
Take responsibility for what we did wrong and still do wrong first.
Slowoldman the damage is done and its not our (,remainer) doing, its good old fashioned Kharma and i absoloutely understand that many folks who voted remain will suffer.
It has been said that every generation has a conflict to deal with wars, thatcher whatever and here we are Brexit this generations conflict- not their doing but an older generations mistake..
<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">No point abusing the oppo until we have realised why they beat us.</span>
It's been done a lot on this thread hasn't it?
Oh, it gets better. Have a listen to this, it’s priceless.
We’ve just passed a law prohibiting a border in Ireland. Unfortunately, WTO requires border checks. We’ve effectively just made it illegal for ourselves to trade under WTO.
Anyone have a brewery they need a piss-up organising in?
This guy is even more of a smart arse than me, except he is talking bollocks. There is no rule in WTO requiring its members governments to secure their borders. Well at least thats what someone from the WTO said:
And yet, IGM, they won, we lost. Think about it.
Yep we have been. You probably missed that bit
No point abusing the oppo until we have realised why they beat us. If we still think it’s lies and bus, then we remain doomed not them.
They promised unicorns and free shit, they didn't all vote for Brexit, many voted as a protest against the Tory government, many were just angry.
Take responsibility for what we did wrong and still do wrong first.
Yeah honest conversations about stuff, that doesn't go down so well does it. We should app probably just lie about shit and tell everyone you can have it all with no drawbacks.
If these people do not see the implications of their vote first hand then its always someone elses fault.
Given the level of dishonesty or if we are being generous misunderstanding being posted then it's clear not much thinking has been done. The same old tired excuses and fear are all we come up with.
Little learned at all. Fail to learn from history...
Dont "nanny state," people by fixing their problems, this is partially why these **** wits voted this way because they were "told" to vote this way by their "betters" "parents" (not actual parents but physiological parents,/politicians, newspapers etc.)
What is the legal basis for suing the EU there? What are you going to sue them for?
We've paid an eighth of the cost, it has had the best British brains working on it and has been in the making for 15 years with only another 2 years until launch. The EU are just being bloody minded, many European leaders are saying so too.
As they don’t know the process for that being legal to sell it’s a bit ambitious there.
The producers will have stocks, if we are going to default to WTO next March (which is a big if) and a WTO agreement is not in place (another big if) then we will have sufficent stocks to get us through. Do you seriously think 400,000 are going to be left to die?!
How are we going to sue the EU when we refuse to have anything to do with the ECJ?
greybeard - why do we need the ecj to sue the EU? We won't be under the ECJ's rule by then.
Doesnt that rather fall down because we agreed the rules; that 3rd countries couldn’t handle certain aspects of the data?
And now want to make ourselves a 3rd country.
Its a fair point, but arguably we own a slice of it. Lawyers are good at arguing.
I believe that solitary company is Wockhardt and they produce enough insulin for approx 2000 users, quite a fair amount short of the 450,000+ users of insulin in this country, how do I know this?……… A good friend works in procurement for the NHS and the medical implements and drug supply issue is a very real and genuine worry for the entire NHS at the moment.
dickens by name d*ck by nature
Somafunk - the original article stated that there are no insulin producers in the UK, I was correcting that and acknowledge that its a tiny amount. Dick, how original, did you think it up all by yourself? Your opinion ceased to be of any value whatsoever when you intimated that 17.4 million leave voters were just racists.
The same old tired excuses and fear are all we come up with.
Remind us again what the positives are? How much better of will the UK be outside of the UK in a deal we have not defined yet?
Which bit of the tory party will backstab the other first?
Little learned at all. Fail to learn from history…
More people are learning that JRM is talking out of his ares, that the PM is clueless and BoJo is a racist prick. That Brexit is a bad idea too. But sure you will be fine there
We’ve paid an eighth of the cost, it has had the best British brains working on it and has been in the making for 15 years with only another 2 years until launch. The EU are just being bloody minded, many European leaders are saying so too.
Yep but we just decided to screw the help after we signed the pre nup.
Do you seriously think 400,000 are going to be left to die?!
Best way to deal with things is not to then plead for emergency relief. Clever
greybeard – why do we need the ecj to sue the EU? We won’t be under the ECJ’s rule by then.
Well where are we going to sue them?
There is no rule in WTO requiring its members governments to secure their borders. Well at least thats what someone from the WTO said:
Did u read the link?
It says WTOs MFN rule means we would have to !
You are asking how much...in something as yet undefined!?! What an odd question
All my own work dickens, happy I meet with your approval.
I’m pretty sure that not all of the 17,410,742 who voted to leave are racists, but I bet the percentage who hold racist views in the leave group vastly outnumber the percentage who hold racist views in the remain group therefore on the basis of probability I declare racists.....racists everywhere.
Well you keep telling us it will all be OK, you must know!
The only people telling others what will happen are the doomsdayers. That's ridiculous. No one knows, hence fertile ground for mass exaggeration and scare stories
Among the best is the poor getting poorer diatribes which conveniently ignore just why populism and anti EU feeling is rising across Europe. Fail to learn...
The only people telling others what will happen are the doomsdayers. That’s ridiculous. No one knows
Not sure about that, I believe that Sunlit Uplands are just around the corner
edit
And yet, IGM, they won, we lost. Think about it.
What are we supposed to think oh enlightened one? I know us mere mortals dont come close to the genius of grown ups like yourself but I am failing to see the lesson here. Beyond a sucker is born every minute and controlling the press is key to controlling the public debate that is? Which whilst not a bad thing to know isnt overly useful in this context.
If we still think it’s lies and bus, then we remain doomed not them.
Welllll, it depends on whether it is. Also your simplistic us or them is a tad binary. All of us can be doomed. Well aside from those Brexit elites (plus some of the other elites who, despite being opposed, will still profit).
I do have some sympathy for those who were lashing out against conditions outside their control however, frankly, not much. Since the faith required to believe in the brexit elites giving a toss about them is way beyond my understanding. It makes most religions look semi rational.
Brexit elites - you do know who voted leave don't you?? Plenty of posters keep reminding us. Elites???
Somafunk – the original article stated that there are no insulin producers in the UK, I was correcting that and acknowledge that its a tiny amount.
Is that different to it being the non-issue you claimed it was? A 'tiny amount' of production is different to a 'non-issue'. You're not bullshitting us, are you?
<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">Little learned at all. Fail to learn from history</span>
I don't even know what you mean.
Are you saying we are unaware of what happened? I think we are. Mostly what people are saying here is that it's all going to shit - cos that's what it looks like. You seem confident, but won't (or can't) tell us why. We are having some significant communication issues here.
<span style="display: inline !important; float: none; background-color: transparent; color: #222222; font-family: 'Open Sans'; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: 400; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: 22.4px; orphans: 2; text-align: left; text-decoration: none; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;">We’ve paid an eighth of the cost, it has had the best British brains working on it</span>
Not sure you're thinking about this the right way. The EU paid for it, and it had the best EU brains working on it. It's the EU's - in the same way that what I create for my employer belongs to it, not me. The EU has the contracts, if they say we don't have a right to it then we don't have a right to it, end of. We could make a deal, of course, but that's just another thing we have to do.
Brexit elites – you do know who voted leave don’t you?? Plenty of posters keep reminding us. Elites???
It's as if he only reads a fraction of the text....
Who funded it?
Who was pushing it?
Who stands to gain apart from those who pushed it so hard (except yourself of course)
Cougar – So if we have a referendum and the government of the day completely ignores the wishes of the people this is the very definition of democracy?
Point the first, as I said, in a democracy "the people" don't vote on individual policies. We vote for representatives who hopefully act in our best interests.
Point the second, I'm not for a second suggesting that the government ignores the wishes of "the people" (25% of the population and half of those who voted, conveniently ignoring the other half of "the people" who disagreed). Rather that the result of the referendum should be carefully considered and plans put in place on the back of that to address the concerns of "the people." I said this back on like page 2.
The referendum was advisory, despite what Cameron promised - if it wasn't, a supermajority would have been required to secure a mandate. As it stands it's Shrodinger's Referendum, simultaneously advisory and mandatory depending on whether it benefits someone's agenda or not. Pick one and stick with it, either it's advisory in which case "the will of the people" is irrelevant or it was mandatory in which case a decisive majority was not reached.
dickens by name d*ck by nature
<mod>I'm going to start handing out bans shortly if people can't reply without hurling insults around. Stop it.</mod>
Looks can be deceptive. I posted what is happening to the UK a few page back. Noting like the doomsdayers predicted. Economies are wonderfully dynamic and flexible things. Not the static blocks that many models assume.
On what do you base that?
Also, will we have the same opportunities as the Germans in 2028? Will there be as many British kids working abroad as Germans? Am I ever going to live and work abroad again?
Answer to those is most likely no. Do you care about that, dickens?
Second point first Molgrips. Why wouldn't you and your kids be able to work in the EU? The EU has millions of non eu migrants every year.
I wouldn't bet the ranch on it but I think Germany's industrialised economy is under threat. Look at the electric transport revolution, all cars built in many european countries to be electric by 2025, thats only 7 years away. Tesla is small fry compared to german carmakers but they have stole the march and they are having to play catch up. 800,000 people are employed in the german car industry so there is a lot at stake. Germany is tied to the EU when 90% of the worlds growth will come from non eu countries. A bad eu us deal could spoil their us sales. They have scrapped nuclear and are now dependant on Russia for gas, a highly unstable state which could ramp up costs at will.
In contrast I think entrepreneurial Britain will fare well with the freedom to strike advantageous trade deals around the world. Our trade has swung dramatically in favour of non eu countries in recent years and thats where the global growth will be. I saw one forecast that projected that the E7 economies could be double that of the G7 economies. There will be explosive growth in countries like Vietnam, Phillipines and Nigeria and China of course will continue to skyrocket.
There will be explosive growth in countries like Vietnam, Phillipines and Nigeria and China of course will continue to skyrocket.
Thankfully we are part of a huge strong trading bloc who can deliver the best trade deal going forward there, oh wait we left that and now have to compete with the big bloc who will be in line for a deal as it's going to be important for those guys, though the UK could get a quick one by selling out.
The Australia China deal is worth taking a look at to see what could come.
Point the first, as I said, in a democracy “the people” don’t vote on individual policies. We vote for representatives who hopefully act in our best interests.
Point the second, I’m not for a second suggesting that the government ignores the wishes of “the people” (25% of the population and half of those who voted, conveniently ignoring the other half of “the people” who disagreed). Rather that the result of the referendum should be carefully considered and plans put in place on the back of that to address the concerns of “the people.” I said this back on like page 2.
The referendum was advisory, despite what Cameron promised – if it wasn’t, a supermajority would have been required to secure a mandate. As it stands it’s Shrodinger’s Referendum, simultaneously advisory and mandatory depending on whether it benefits someone’s agenda or not. Pick one and stick with it, either it’s advisory in which case “the will of the people” is irrelevant or it was mandatory in which case a decisive majority was not reached.
Cougar - This is just sour grapes looking for ways to overturn the decision. Its quite pathetic. The referendum wording even stated "The Government will implement what you decide".
Actually, this is important, so I'll raise it as a separate question. Roughly rounded:
17 million people voted to leave the EU.
16 million people voted to stay in the EU.
Can anyone explain to me why the 17m is "the will of the people" and must be obeyed at any cost, whereas the other 16m is "yeah, **** those guys." ? Where in any of the great leaver plans is any consideration being given to the wishes of the other half of the voters?
"Something something democracy" suddenly becomes "we won, you lost, get over it, remoaners." In what flavour of democracy is it acceptable to attempt to bully half of the electorate into silence?
The referendum wording even stated “The Government will implement what you decide”.
Can you point to where in the European Union Referendum Act 2015 it says that please.
As a hint you wont be able to.
This is just sour grapes looking for ways to overturn the decision.
I'm not trying to overturn anything. I just said exactly the opposite. Do you want to try again?
The referendum wording even stated “The Government will implement what you decide”.
So was it an advisory or mandatory referendum? Yes or no question.
Better than the will of the 16 must be obeyed at the expense of the will of the 17
Can you point to where in the European Union Referendum Act 2015 it says that please.
Cameron promised that a) he'd implement the decision and b) he'd see it through. B) went well, didn't it. Go get him back and we can start taking a) seriously, otherwise it's two lies of the same coin.
Better than the will of the 16 must be obeyed at the expense of the will of the 17
Or, you know, vote again until the majority on the biggest vote in our lives is significant.
Better than the will of the 16 must be obeyed at the expense of the will of the 17
Well let us see a proposal and we can all decide, sound fair? You know sort out all those awkward questions like what kind of leave do you want, leave leave, sort of leave, leave but don't leave, friends with benefits, Blame Canada?
Then we can truly say it's the will of the people as quire a few are not sure what they wanted and as the leavers in the tory party show they can't get on board with one vision.
Again the only real problem for leavers is if they don't think they still have the numbers, and honestly if the majority don't want to leave on a particular deal on offer that is completely different to what was promised is that executing the will of the people?
Better than the will of the 16 must be obeyed at the expense of the will of the 17
And vastly inferior to "let's see how we can best please the majority of the 33" however you slice it, n'est-ce pas?
Or, you know, vote again until the majority on the biggest vote in our lives is significant.
Or stop deferring such a monumental decision to an ill-informed electorate, and have parliament do what we've (democratically) voted them in to do in the first place.
The 16m voted for the same thing
The 17m voted for different things, that's why brexit is always gonna be a failure.
The divisions in the Tory party (& the rest of parliament... & the nation) nicely exemplifies this.
Whatever deal we end up with, the country will remain fractured, not least because Brexit seems to address none of the real issues the country faces
Brexit elites – you do know who voted leave don’t you??
Actually I am not sure anyone knows exactly. Well aside from the grownups like yourself with those special information sources.
However I am sure grownups will be able to spot the difference between "someone who voted for Brexit" and "Brexit elites" and not need it explaining to them.
If it helps as a venn diagram the latter will probably be a subset of the former. Although its only probably since I suspect in at least some cases, eg Boris Johnson, they didnt actually vote leave.
the country will remain fractured, not least because Brexit seems to address none of the real issues the country faces
Bingo. Well said.
Ever since Article 50 has been exercised, whether the referendum was mandatory or not became an irrelevance as the result was acted on with the benefit of the vote of parliament. That leaves two likely scenarios. First, there is no deal, so there is nothing for parliament to vote on - there is no deal to have a meaningful vote in respect of, and we leave by operation of the treaty. Second, Mrs May comes back with a deal which she will almost certainly get through Parliament as the alternative will be no deal for which there isn't a majority, so anything but that will win.
Aside from the notion "what deal?" there's a third option you're overlooking there.
Given the level of dishonesty or if we are being generous misunderstanding being posted then it’s clear not much thinking has been done. The same old tired excuses and fear are all we come up with.
The only thing differed from your previous incarnation is that you have dropped the "clever people are fixing everything behind the scenes" charade. This may be an improvement or not, depending on the reader's sense of humour.
The contents of the deal are really unimportant to my analysis as I can't imagine any deal which would not get the approval of Parliament in this context. There are lots other possible scenarios but I struggle to see how they can happen without government support, which I think is unlikely to be forthcoming hence my use of likely in the original post.
Kimbers I think it's idisingenuous to argue that 16 voted for the same thing while 17 didn't - but a convenient one for those who persist with the "but miss, it didn't say that on the ballot form so it's not fair 😢"
Among the 16 there are those who still would like the UK to be part of the the folly that is the Euro, the are those who want to be part of th EU but only if it's reformed, there are those who are happy to members without reform (or understand that this is not possible at least in a meaningful way) some like me thought what Dave bought back was about as good as it gets and where happy with that. All very different proposals with very different outcomes (ok not the reform as that's impossible) for the UK economically and politically. So even here there is a very wide range of views and aspirations.
does anyone complain that this granularity was not on the remain side of the ballot form? No, because by confusing the issue of membership of the EU with the terms of our future acces, they have a weak and clearly unsustainable argument for denying responsibility for delivering on the result. And they then witter on about democracy...
A brexit snapshot.
Friends of friends situation.
Her daughter”s in laws live in Spain . Their house is on a 75% empty development and it has been on the market for 3 years at £100000 with no interest.
It”s too hot in the summer so the son has them to stay for a month , where they can also see their new grandchild.
This trip however he felt ill and on a trip to the doctors was found to be riddled with cancer.
Next year I assume he won’t be eligible for Spanish healthcare and no hope of getting insured.
They will have to return and live off the state. Problem is that their unsaleable house is deemed as an asset and they are not eligible for help.
They will have to end up living with their son. My friend’s daughter absolutely hates them as they are typical Tory racists and moved to Spain to get away from the immigrants in this country.
She will not put up with them and will return home with her 2 kids to live with my friend.
This is the story as was told to me by my friend. I haven’t checked facts.
Let the lion roar etc.
Cool story bro but on three readings I haven't worked out who is related to who and where they all live 🙂
But I probably got the gist of it.
But I probably got the gist of it.
Yep, families can be a pain in the arse. This one just has a Brexit angle.
does anyone complain that this granularity was not on the remain side of the ballot form?
No, because we know what Remaining is.
Gloss or Matt for the painting over of reality? Forget Italy and Greece, have you been following the (nice) Swedish election??
yes cool Brexit story zippy: Euro created mass property bubble, the rights of UK citizens abroad need thinking about, oh and the DiL doesn't sound the nice caring sort does she?
nothign to do with Brexit but horrible story. Hope the son recovers/gets good treatment
THM, yes, I am following the Swedish election. What's happening in it?
Everything to do with brexit.
If he is able to receive care in Spain , life will carry on pretty much as normal as can be for those involved.
If he can’t , then the fall out will be huge.
Well rather than a united vision, we see a rapid rise in Euro scepticism (you will be aware of the polls FWIW), strong opinions on migration from a domestic and x-Europe perspective and associated violence.
So it's false to argue that people know what remain means or that there even a semblance of unity. Major political shifts are occurring within the EZ, the EU and nion members.
Convenient, but false
No, people KNOW what not leaving the EU means. For the millionth time, everyone acknowledges that there are differences of opinion about how it should be run, and it's not currently perfect, but I can tell you right now what remaining looks like. Your post above is whataboutery of the highest order.
The EU is always changing, so, yes, keeping EU membership is not, and can not be, a "no change" decision. That is not the same as actively unilaterally forcing major change, with no plan or consensus on how to deal with that self forced change.
Current theme while talking to my Brexit voting relatives is that they can't believe how badly our politicians are handling the Leave process. I can't find an answer as to what a good outcome would be at this stage though. These are highly intelligent, well read, politically and legally knowledgable people, but even they are reduced to a "not the Brexit we voted for" position, without any clarity as to what it is precisely they voted for… beyond regaining a more British, less European form of democracy.
Oh, one suggestion is to "let the civil service get on with it"… I think this is very much akin to THMs "grown ups" approach/hope… but that then moves the conversation on to timescales… tick tock.
It isn't (what's they voted for) correct. May is seeking to deliver a fudge. Will she get away with it from either side? Possibly/probably not.
the EU is hardly changing. Macrons attempts at reform are stalled while populism and euroscepticism is risng.. as others say, going back to page 2, it was alway silly having a vote when we don't know what the EU will look like in 5 years time. They have no plan for making the Euro work, preferring internal fights among themselves, while the poor get poorer and the rich get richer. Crazy isn't it?
Does she have a mandate for her "fudge"?
Why is she wasting all our time and effort seeking to deliver it?
She's running the clock down, but to what ends? To force a deal unpalatable to her hard Brexit MPs at the final minute? To force a no deal exit past her soft Brexit MPs at the final minute? Or to sneak an extension or transition period to enable still more can kicking on the close/distant relationship decision that has to at some point be made. When and how do "the people" get involved?
Tick, tock.
Crazy isn’t it?
We don't have a government, or opposition, seeking to take us into the Euro. So…
> shrugs <
Good question. But tbf pretty hard to have a unilateral negotiation - an oxymoron if ever there was one.
tick tick tock - the EU strategy from the outset. We were warned so can only blame ourselves - an unpopular concept these days as we know
By "ourselves", who do you mean?
So??? Really???
The future of our relationship with the rest of the Euro area is fundamentally related to how the structural failings of the Euro are addressed. They have not been planned for yet, so we cannot negtionate about them - sound familiar? I wish they would hurry up, the clock is ticking.
But you understand what not leaving looks like, yes?
the daily star of all papers finally nails it!
🙂
No not yet. It's quite unclear
Can kicking into implementation period incorporating some unpalatable wording for the ERG, but will still be approved by Parliament.
Well as reported today the "People's Vote" group are going to try and get motions passed at the Labour conference to force a meaningful vote on the deal.
Sounds fair, given nobody knows what we are heading for or what it looks like.
Sounds like sensible democracy rather than the No Deal/Whatever Deal option currently being touted.
That's most likely @Mefty, agreed. Messy for the country, and completely gives the EU the upper hand, but that's the corner she's boxing her party and Parliament into, it seems.
Too late I feel @mikewsmith, but would be wise for Labour to say/do something.
Only fair if they also define what the EU is going to look like too
Only fair if they also define what the EU is going to look like too
Prompt to change your country… you need to agree and plan that change. Responding to changes prompted by other countries is a different matter.
Also, staying a member now, or taking an EEA style stance, does not preclude moving further away in even the near future. Rule out those options now, and who really thinks they will be on offer again, with sensible terms, within our lifetimes?
Only fair if they also define what the EU is going to look like too
You know what it looks like.
Well they have a very long time to plan for the introduction of the Euro and still haven't got there.
No I don't, only that it cannot exist in its current form. Hard to engage with people who have no plan on the core element of their preferred option.
Only fair if they also define what the EU is going to look like too
Like the deal we can look at it at that point in time or make a decision.
At the moment the choice could be £8bn/Year payments for access, accept FoM, accept ECJ etc with no say or No Deal which the WTO keep popping up and blowing holes in peoples fantasies.
That sounds like some options that will please nobody really
I understand why it's easier if the great unwashed keep quiet and accept what TM says without questions but that ain't going to happen.
I'd also support the introduction of electric shock collars for the final debate where MP's get an increasing voltage for each lie they tell.
Who is proposing the UK joining the Euro?
I understand why it’s easier if the great unwashed keep quiet and accept what TM says without questions but that ain’t going to happen.
Everyone can have a say, they just need to armour themselves against accusations of being a blocker, a traitor, enemy of democracy, or whatever, if their say isn't wrapped up in hard Brexit rhetoric, or if they suggest any kind of, heaven forfend, "vote".
thm is, as it's a useful distraction from the cluster**** that the tories are currently managing.
Quite a few, albeit and fortunately only a minority.
But as above, the fate of the Euro affects us too
cmon captain don't make things up - only leavers do that apparently.