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The new troll has said more of interest in 60 posts than you have in 46,000.
Does that matter who they are?
Well the banhammer has to land somewhere.
Could be chewkw's handler?
You regular Remoaners on here are so predictable.
As soon as someone from the Leave camp tries to give their opinion on Brexit ... they get labelled a Troll.
It really is blatantly obvious you all dont want debate - you just want other ignorant Remoaners airing their anxieties and insecurities on this thread.
You are all very pathetic.
*see you in a week or so; hopefully there will finally be a grown up debate going on.
Well the banhammer has to land somewhere.
Quite. If it's someone who shouldn't be here then they'll be removed. If it's an alt account then that breaks T&Cs so again, they'll be removed. If it's neither of those things then happy days. [Insert Fonzie picture here]
As soon as someone from the Leave camp tries to give their opinion on Brexit … they get labelled a Troll.
By a couple of people. Don't tar everyone with the same brush.
*see you in a week or so; hopefully there will finally be a grown up debate going on.
Leading by example, I see.
Agree EEA type deal looking most likely
Hilarious to see Brexiters finally get the hard brexit prep they wanted only to see the country recoil at the giant shit sandwich Raab (sweatier & more flustered than ever seen him) laid out befire us today , showing just how grim no deal would be & explained how much it's already costing government.
As if you needed more evidence that brexit has trashed the reputation of the conservatives...
https://twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1032649248804876294?s=19
(Brandon Lewis saying he's not allowed in, Banks saying his membership still active?)
Well the banhammer has to land somewhere.
Could be chewkw’s handler?
I am just asking because both sides have provided some good points which I enjoy reading so is there a point to target individuals who are willing to debate? It is about the points they put forward Not the individual as who they are.
Why want to suggest a ban on me when I ask a question?
I have never targeted anyone apart from reminding people of their views on the forum so why target me?
Put it this way some of my friends are hardcore Marxist, Communists, Socialists and extremely active in anti-brexit campaign, as strong EU supporters (very active on grounds too) and None of them would ban me from going out with them for pints nor partake in their discussion. None. I mean some are retired Professors who write articles after articles about anti-Brexit and very active on grounds too. We all get alone very well.
They all know I voted for Brexit yet they are very relax about my views when I asked them questions, so I am not sure why you target me.
P/s: I have NEVER changed my login name.
The troll is obviously ninfan btw, He even chucked in a Thatcher video !
And mooman, still not prepared to answer any questions?
Only wondering if it's your kremlin controllers trying a new one out.
Good to see none of the leavers can pick from the 3 options there. Sums it all up.
I'm missing the cut and thrust of good old Aussie politics at the moment. I can hear the game of thrones tune from here, somebody would have knifed May by now over there just out of boredom
😉
I am just asking because both sides have provided some good points which I enjoy reading so is there a point to target individuals who are willing to debate? It is about the points they put forward Not the individual as who they are.
It's exactly about who they are, if they were banned then it was - in theory at least - with good reason.
Why want to suggest a ban on me when I ask a question?
I suspect that was supposed to be a joke. We don't censor people for their opinions, generally.
Though I've wondered numerous times why we haven't banned you yet.... (-:
The troll is obviously ninfan btw
Doesn't appear to be. In any case, he should be back in a few days. Along with a... oh, yeah.
Oh he's back....
Christ, it’s not Fred is it?!
Nah. Not enough emojis and mockney, bruv innit.
Though I’ve wondered numerous times why we haven’t banned you yet…. (-:
I was banned previously for having some humours to lighten the atmosphere but people just read it wrongly.
Put it this way different cultures do have different way of presenting humours and ways of engaging each others. Sometimes even a simple response (here) can be perceived as something completely differently. You should see our Parliament in the far east when they debate.
😀 <-- I am stuck with this emoji so one expression only.
I suspect that was supposed to be a joke. We don’t censor people for their opinions, generally.
See, I don't even know if he is serious or merely being humorous ... 😀
And on that bombshell, I'm going to the pub. Please play nicely, people.
Interesting twist from the ‘Bremain in Spain’ FB page.
Fellow Bremainers, Here is my Rant for the Day.
All this talk of no deal, the warnings issued and the terrifying consequences it would have, is a load of rubbish.
Here's what's happening: Raab and the rest of May's cronies are trying to make people scared. British people, not the EU. The EU have already made their plans. They would have far more options open to them in the event of no deal. But by saying "don't worry, folks, there won't be a no-deal scenario, BUT JUST IN CASE STOCK UP ON YOUR MEDICINES!!", Raab makes people scared.
May and Raab know that no deal is actually not an option. And they will be forced to climb down over free movement of people in order to retain access to the single market. They will have to accept whatever the EU finally decides to offer them, and dress it up in as much spin as possible. And if there's one thing May is good at, it's getting dreadful policies passed in the House of Commons.
But when the deal, whatever it is, is finally agreed, we will all be told how lucky we are to have avoided the catastrophe of NO deal. The British public will breathe a sigh of relief. In fact, May will be able to amend one of her favourite catchphrases, and say "A bad deal is better than no deal."
That's what I think is happening right now. The only way these idiots can be stopped is with a PEOPLE'S VOTE!#StopBrexit
#PeoplesVote
#FinalSay
Chewk english has improved a lot.
Chewk english has improved a lot.
I have to type very slowly to check if I have not offended anyone.
Note that my quick humour might be interpreted differently and may incur flames from all.
Even with my friends I sometimes have to ask them to explain their humour as I thought they were serious.
😀
Spelling too good for Jamby
Answers too full for thm
The odd deliberate mis spelling ie "wot I said" makes me think they are trying to cover their identity.
Not really trolling in my opinion.
So Dom has just given a speech about what happens in the event of a No Deal Brexit
It appears that it would basically involve the instigation of new levels of bureaucracy that would make a 1970’s Labour council blush.
State of Emergency?
And if there’s one thing May is good at, it’s getting dreadful policies passed in the House of Commons.
Very nicely sums up her entire career in politics.
Rabb looked like he had shit and pissed his pants today, it was interedting watching him die inside a little more each time he delivred a "contingency"
Oh i love this, the sheer inadequacy of these peope is laid bare...
Observations
1. JRM is on low profile
2. Boris is on low profile
3. David Davis is probably sat in the sunny spot by the window
4. Even the Tories wont have Aaron Banks as a member
5. Farmers say it will be a cliff edge
6. Buy some software exporters?
**** me i can not stop laughing.....
Still dickensian and chewy will wave the flag of independence..
**** me i can not stop laughing…..
Some of us are not laughing.
My Dad is a remain voting farmer
My job depends on UK manufacturing
I like to travel
Not a lot to laugh about really
So, while we have the attention of the usual suspects (including one with a new name), what's the plan for …
- Ireland
- Drivers of haulage that crosses UK/EU borders
- 100% increase in customs processing early next year
- vetinary accrediting and staffing for live animal movements
- just in time supply chains for manufacturers
- replacing trade deals and arrangements with non-EEA countries
- increased NHS inflation due to lower pound and stated goal of USA government to greatly increase drug pricing post Brexit
- my kids having access to career opportunities across the continent
- getting our stand alone schedules approved at the WTO
Greetings Remainiacs, no ban for Dicky boy, I'm back, like the dog that returneth to its vomit..
Something for the fact fans to chew on:
- The uk population has grown by 8 million people since 2001.
- 82% of that 8 million are migrants. The government were being a little naughty in not counting babies of migrants in the stats so the true number is 5.4 million immigrants to the UK.
- If they carry on at the current rate there will be 1 million new migrants in the UK every 3 years.
- Even if we build a house every 5 minutes, that won't be enough to house the migrants alone, never mind the UK population.
How does that grab you? Everybody happy with that? Okay how about this:
- Mass immigration puts downward pressure on low paid workers wages, but middle and high earners actually gain. Remember I was banging on about fat cats? That's why big business love immigrants and why they are chucking money at remain.
- The government trots out that immigration helps gdp. It does but thats not the full story. gdp per head drops, so we are worse off per head.
- the figures above don't include family members coming over to join the party at a later date
- The UK is densely populated by international standards and has a chronic shortage of housing. England is twice as crowded as Germany and nearly four times as crowded as France.
- To cope with this population increase huge amounts will have to be spent on the expansion of school places, roads, rail, health and other infrastructure. Increased migration will not generate the extra tax revenue needed to pay for such infrastructure expansion.
Utter madness. Whats more no thought is being given to the perils of multiculturalism (thought you would love me bringing that one up again).
My solution, an Australian style points system. If we need the skills you're welcome. If you're a close relative of a UK citizen (spouse, mother, father, son, daughter), you're welcome. If a limited number are in dire genuine need of help, you're welcome and we'll look after you until you can get back on your feet and back home safely.
It's not about migration, it's all about migration … repeat the bullshit again and again.
"– 82% of that 8 million are migrants. The government were being a little naughty in not counting babies of migrants in the stats"
Babies or migrants, or as they're otherwise known, "not migrants"
How does that grab you? Everybody happy with that? Okay how about this:
Yep happy with that
– To cope with this population increase huge amounts will have to be spent on the expansion of school places, roads, rail, health and other infrastructure. Increased migration will not generate the extra tax revenue needed to pay for such infrastructure expansion.
Most immigrants are over 18, they are net contributors to the society unlike some of the scrounging gits who just get born and do nothing.
Where are your stats for your claim?
My solution,
Is final?
The government were being a little naughty in not counting babies of migrants in the stats
Does that mean people born In the UK, or people born abroad, but very young when moving to the UK?
Anyway, EEA migration is down, non-EEA migration is up. Migration Isn't going to stop, partly because your lies about the effect of migration on our economy are lies. We benefit from migration. Full stop.
if the Uk doesn’t use its current laws and available tools to monitor or control migration what makes you suspect leaving the EU will change anything?
controlled migration requires monitoring at the borders - note this will have to include the NI one...
the biggest issue with the plan is that compared to Australia the salaries for talented engineers and doctors etc are much lower and unless there is a drastic shift this is unlikely to change to attract the high quality applicants. Also removal of the links to Europe makes it a much less attractive location.
All that will happen is a reduction in a stretched talent pool leading to offshoring or dropping of standards.
I am and always will be a remainer, however i want a no deal brexit.
Hard rain needs to fall....
I am and always will be a remainer, however i want a no deal brexit.
Hard rain needs to fall….
I totally agree with the "Hard rain ... " ^^^
Has anyone of you actually tried to rent or to buy a two room house/flat? How much? If you can afford them then you are definitely earning much more than normal people.
– The uk population has grown by 8 million people since 2001.
which is 25% less than the rate of global population growth
– 82% of that 8 million are migrants. The government were being a little naughty in not counting babies of migrants in the stats so the true number is 5.4 million immigrants to the UK.
thatd make the children not migrants, it makes them british citizens
– If they carry on at the current rate there will be 1 million new migrants in the UK every 3 years.
which is 25% less than the rate of global population growth
– Even if we build a house every 5 minutes, that won’t be enough to house the migrants alone, never mind the UK population.
How does that grab you? Everybody happy with that? Okay how about this:
It is a solution to our ageing demographic timebomb, until weve built enough robots to wipe your senile arse in the care home
EU & non-eu migration has stayed broadly the same fall in EU migrants has been replaced by increase in non-eu, even tho restrictions on non-eu much togher- why? - because we need them
UK gov skills shortage list is still huge
http://www.visabureau.com/uk/shortage-occupations-list.aspx
now obviously government should be training those here better, but Tory austerity has seen the opposite- apprenticeship numbers have collapsed
cost of Brexit means more austerity & less investment, so this will only get worse
– Mass immigration puts downward pressure on low paid workers wages, but middle and high earners actually gain. Remember I was banging on about fat cats? That’s why big business love immigrants and why they are chucking money at remain.
you are highlighting a fundamental flaw in our economy, we simply dont pay enough especially at the bottom, despite our floods of immigrants unemployment is still falling, if we paid better then all would be raised up.
Brexit in no way promises to fix that, infact in the right-wing deregulation bonanza we can look forward to it getting worse, brexit inflation has already exacerbated ii- really sounds like you want some sort of beardy courgette growing socialist in power
– The government trots out that immigration helps gdp. It does but thats not the full story. gdp per head drops, so we are worse off per head.
they are doing jobs that we meed doing, see unemplyment rate
– the figures above don’t include family members coming over to join the party at a later date
– The UK is densely populated by international standards and has a chronic shortage of housing. England is twice as crowded as Germany and nearly four times as crowded as France.
egland may be but Britain has the same population density as germany, that our government focus everything into the southeast is not the fault of the EU & again Brexit will not fix this
– To cope with this population increase huge amounts will have to be spent on the expansion of school places, roads, rail, health and other infrastructure. Increased migration will not generate the extra tax revenue needed to pay for such infrastructure expansion.
this is called investing in infrastructure, & again loss of income from brexit means less of that too, so brexit will only make this worse!
also Germany has seen a boost to GDP & construction boom because they Have built homes for their new immigrants, UKs housing crisis is a cycle of stupidity, were addicted to low interest rates to keep mortgages down (brexit making this worse), developers sit on land to turn a profit & build poorly when they do to make money not satisfy need, theres also a huge delay in planning application sausterity has cripple council planning departmenst, brexit hit to economy only making that worse
Utter madness. Whats more no thought is being given to the perils of multiculturalism (thought you would love me bringing that one up again).
My solution, an Australian style points system. If we need the skills you’re welcome. If you’re a close relative of a UK citizen (spouse, mother, father, son, daughter), you’re welcome. If a limited number are in dire genuine need of help, you’re welcome and we’ll look after you until you can get back on your feet and back home safely.
a points based system would change nothing, unless we start training our own workers better (& brexits drag on economy makes this harder)
in conclusion brexit is utter madness that wont address any of your perceived problems & infact makes them much worse, youve basically voted for a massive self-pwn, well done!
even your fear of foreign cultures is only going to be amplified when lots more non white immigrants start turning up (as they already are)
thatd make the children not migrants, it makes them british citizens
It doesn't. the parents have to have permanent leave to remain before any children born here are considered British Citizens based on the advice received by some friends of mine.
thatd make the children not migrants, it makes them british citizens
I had to read that twice (and deleted a reply because of it), but I think he meant not counting existing babies brought over by immigrating parents, rather than babies subsequently born here of migrant parents?
Incidentally, are we including refugees in these figures or is that a separate statistic? I assume so as the righties like to conflate them as the same thing, but clarification would be nice.
(Is "righty" a word? "Lefty" seem to be, so...?)
i did not know that, but Ill still welcome them here
the parents have to have permanent leave to remain before any children born here are considered British Citizens
Am I missing something here then? If the parents can't remain here then they're not immigrants either. They're essentially tourists, n'est-ce pas?
They’re essentially tourists, n’est-ce pas?
No, you can work here for a couple of years but that doesn't give you the permanent right to remain which is five years, so any child born here if you are only here for a short time is not automatically a British Citizen. I was born in Germany but there is no question of me being a German citizen.
I see dickens/ninfan/dickwad has been quoting from the bastion of truth “migration watch” website, well done👏, you really outed yourself on that post.
No, you can work here for a couple of years but that doesn’t give you the permanent right to remain which is five years, so any child born here if you are only here for a short time is not automatically a British Citizen. I was born in Germany but there is no question of me being a German citizen.
Ah, I didn't know that, thanks.
Does that mean we're still counting them as immigrants then? When they have to go home again?
We'll build a wall, and the wombs will pay for it!
No, you can work here for a couple of years but that doesn’t give you the permanent right to remain which is five years, so any child born here if you are only here for a short time is not automatically a British Citizen. I was born in Germany but there is no question of me being a German citizen.
Were you born before or after free movement of people within the EU? I thought that an EU citizen had indefinite right to remain (without applying) so their kids were British but if that was the case why would people from the EU have applied for permanent residency rights in the past...
this is very confusing
So it seems to depend on year but yes one of the parents has to be British or here for 5 years AND applied for settled status...
wonder what the situation is if settled stays was not applied for but now the kid has been in the country for five years. Can the kid apply for status then?
Some of us are not laughing.
I am not laughing either. There is going to be an impact on the poorest who are already struggling I don't care that some of them foolishly voted for Brexit as they were largely taken advantage of and were fooled/lied into it.
Whoever is at fault and under whatever circumstances I don't find people not being able to eat each month very funny.
And this hard rain BS is only hard rain for some, the rich will have good umbrellas.
I have to type very slowly to check if I have not offended anyone.
Not slowly enough, try around one word per day and your English should be perfect.
So the dick finally zeroes in on what really froths him up - foreigners. Especially those who want to actually live in Ruritania, for some bizarre reason.
Typical troll. Complete failure to deal with the actual problems of Brexshit that were raised before his sneering, patronising return to the debate.
Hmmm well catching up what’s been going on here took more longer than expected 🙂
Everyone enjoying Brexit then ;-p
What do we reckon then as a possible scenario.
a)Extension of A50.
b)Mays chequers farce (2 years in the making) rebooted to get some deal thru.
c)Blind deal whereby we pay 40bn(ish) and sort something out later.
d)(Die)Hard Brexit - (full shits and giggles mode).
e)Intervention from House of Lords.
f)Alien Invasion.
g)Trump flees USA and gets made emergency PM after May is ousted.
Whatever it is, almost no one will be happy with it unless they’re able to protect themselves financially and invest in the economy once it’s bottomed out.
“Not slowly enough, try around one word per day and your English should be perfect.”....
is the kind of thing one would expect a true white van driving, EDL supporting, express reading, intellectually challenged, racist, Brexiteer might say.
The thread that keeps giving and ...
”so the dick”...
true colours come out under the pressure of Brexit
Except while you were sitting on the bench thm chewkw managed to let the act slip and posted some really clear posts in the world cup thread. The posts here are part of the act. But no matter the language his posts in here are generally incoherent
But anyway pick your favourite option for brexit.
Sauce for the gander...
If a contributor insists on treating those on the other side of the argument as if they are inferior beings who can’t think to the lofty heights of their oppo’s mighty curled lip, it’s no surprise that snappy little terriers like me take a bite.
Delicious.
Not my favourite, but what I consider most likely…
c)Blind deal whereby we pay 40bn(ish) and sort something out later.
…something to get us into a transition period.
this is very confusing
Sure is…
An “omission” in guidance issued in 2008 and not corrected until 2014 meant families from several eastern European countries were not asked for full documentation when applying for British passports for their children.
As a result, hundreds of parents have seen their children’s passport renewals rejected because necessary details had not been provided during initial applications.
Wait 'till after Brexit to see what real confusion looks like for mixed EEA/UK families.
= :87(
I'm sure it will all be fine and the Home Office will get it sorted - after all, Windrush families are all OK, right?
Yes the government will sort it all out just pop it on the list. Not sure if the problem is we don't have a list or we have run out of paper.
GDP down 7.7%. Borrowing up £80bn a year.
Roberto Azevedo, the director-general of the WTO, said there would be an impact from a "no-deal" Brexit, with the possibility of trade "barriers" at the borders and tariffs between the UK and the EU almost certain.
"The EU cannot discriminate amongst the WTO members, so the UK will have to be treated as all the other members, and the other members pay tariffs so the UK will have to pay tariffs as well," he said.
He was also asked whether the UK could unilaterally remove its trade tariffs.
"Technically, yes," he replied. "But not only to the EU, to everybody, so you cannot pick and choose to whom you lower your tariffs.
"If you decide that a particular product, let's say glasses, that they go down to zero, that's perfectly right, any member of the WTO can do that. But that zero applies to everyone else."
Take you facts and file them with the experts.
It's getting in the way of hopes and dreams, the brexit version of thoughts and prayers
At some point in the last 3 pages, our new/returned contributor accused someone of having rose-tinted glasses. Yet a large part of his argument is that the UK has the best democracy and the best justice system in the world. That would be the democracy and justice system that the Tories are currently systematically undermining. Can't get much more rose-tinted than that.
But then he outed him (or her)self with his cut and pasted list of lies about immigration, showing that his position is based on the Flanders and Swann song
The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.The rottenest bits of these islands of ours
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot
You'll find he's a stinker, as likely as not.Och aye, awa' wi' yon Edinburgh Festival
The Scotsman is mean, as we're all well aware
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair
He eats salty porridge, he works all the day
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way!The English, the English, the English are best
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest.Ah hit me old mother over the head with a shillelagh
The Irishman now out contempt is beneath
He sleeps in his boots and he lies through his teeth
He blows up policemen, or so I have heard
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third!The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the priceAh, iechyd da
The Welshman's dishonest and cheats when he can
And little and dark, more like monkey than man
He works underground with a lamp in his hat
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and flat!And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much
Of French and the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch
The Germans are German, the Russians are red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed!The English are moral, the English are good
And clever and modest and misunderstood.And all the world over, each nation's the same
They've simply no notion of playing the game
They argue with umpires, they cheer when they've won
And they practice beforehand which ruins the fun!The English, the English, the English are best
So up with the English and down with the rest.It's not that they're wicked or natuarally bad
It's knowing they're foreign that makes them so mad!For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald (Michael)
Donald (Michael) and Me!
Troll or not, I think he's really best ignored.
@dickens:
The uk population has grown by 8 million people since 2001....
Ok, I appreciate the UK is under population pressure, BUT perhaps leaving the EU was not the way to solve this?
1) Why is this many people causing problems? I would suggest that it is poor planning and management by successive governments. As has been said, large parts of the UK are not that busy.
2) The UK still had tools to control immigration and did not. So it cannot entirely be the fault of the EU, can it? Could the Leave campaign perhaps be blaming the EU for failings of the UK government?
To address your wider comments on the problems of the EU - yes, I don't doubt it's run badly, and probably has some corruption involved. But then, so is our government and probably most. It's not perfect at all, but the point is there are clear benefits as well as disadvantages. By leaving, we stand to lose the benefits, whilst most likely just re-implementing our own version of the disadvantages.
I have no idea why you think the shit-show of UK government can do better on its own.
if the Uk doesn’t use its current laws and available tools to monitor or control migration what makes you suspect leaving the EU will change anything?
cornholio - Its a fair point. At least we will have control and it becomes a voting issue. Right now the man in the street will never have any say in EU migration whatsoever. As the bloc expands this will only get worse.
you are highlighting a fundamental flaw in our economy, we simply dont pay enough especially at the bottom, despite our floods of immigrants unemployment is still falling, if we paid better then all would be raised up.
kimbers kimbers kimbers a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Mass immigration REDUCES PAY FOR LOW SKILLED WORKERS. Not my words but that of the bank of england.
It is a solution to our ageing demographic timebomb, until weve built enough robots to wipe your senile arse in the care home
kimbers - These stats have taken into account old people dying, the poor buggers are already dead and in the stats. Immigrants become old people too as well and so it becomes self perpetuating, even increasing in pace unless the unsustainable immigration continues for all eternity...
also Germany has seen a boost to GDP & construction boom because they Have built homes for their new immigrants
kimbers - and yet Germany have started closing the doors, in 2015 they took in 890,000, the following year it dropped to 280,000. If immigration is so good for the economy and the country as a whole why have dramatically reduced it?
UK gov skills shortage list is still huge
http://www.visabureau.com/uk/shortage-occupations-list.aspx
/a>now obviously government should be training those here better, but Tory austerity has seen the opposite- apprenticeship numbers have collapsed
Yep fully agree with this statement, it beggars belief why we can't develop more doctors and nurses in this country and frankly I find it quite appalling that other countries train their doctors and nurses and then we go on to nick them.
It’s not about migration, it’s all about migration … repeat the bullshit again and again.
Well spotted kelvin, I did say that in the context of brexit, immigration isn't a big deal for me. I've got a pwoperdee portfolio see, so the greater the housing shortage the more lovely money I will make. But although I love money I'm an idealist as well and I also think there will be other more sexy opportunities in the event of Brexit. And also as cornhoilio pointed out there is no guarantee of immigration reducing after brexit anyway.
However immigration is a HUGE issue for most people. A large majority - two thirds - of the public want to see immigration reduced and this includes voters of all ethnicities.
Yep happy with that
You seem like a nice guy Mikewsmith the sort of guy where if I lent you a tenner and didn't pay you back you would probably still buy me a pint in the pub. Sadly some of us believe in give and take.
Most immigrants are over 18, they are net contributors to the society unlike some of the scrounging gits who just get born and do nothing.
Mikewsmith - there is admittedly some evidence to support this but also other evidence to refute it. The evidence is not clear. That said I do believe that historically the Non EU immigrants are a greater burden to the treasury however this gap is narrowing and the stats are old and haven't yet calculated the arrival of poles and romanians. Once more less well off eastern european nations join the party, countries like turkey, macedonia, albania, montenegro, serbia, then these figures are likely to change further.
At some point in the last 3 pages, our new/returned contributor accused someone of having rose-tinted glasses. Yet a large part of his argument is that the UK has the best democracy and the best justice system in the world. That would be the democracy and justice system that the Tories are currently systematically undermining. Can’t get much more rose-tinted than that.
But then he outed him (or her)self with his cut and pasted list of lies about immigration, showing that his position is based on the Flanders and Swann song
onewheelgood - feel free to ignore. I'll admit to being facetious, perhaps even obnoxious, but I am still genuinely contributing to the debate. You have just rocked up after not posting anything for over a month on this topic. Yes I have borrowed stats, but I have just invested in a 100 storey office block with teams of people and dozens of departments all working towards supplying me with my own personal brexit statistics and data, but in the meantime I will have to muddle on through and borrow other peoples.
so you cannot pick and choose to whom you lower your tariffs
Ah, I didn't know this. Interesting!
At least we will have control and it becomes a voting issue. Right now the man in the street will never have any say in EU migration whatsoever.
But didn't we have some control anyway that we didn't exercise? Therefore it was already a voting issue, in theory?
I also think there will be other more sexy opportunities in the event of Brexit.
1) Why do you think this?
2) What opportunities do you think there might be?
As if one Walter Mitty on the thread wasn’t enough, we have another now.
You have just rocked up after not posting anything for over a month on this topic.
This is utterly irrelevant but a very clever way of ensuring that I get irritated enough to respond. Chapeau.
kimbers kimbers kimbers a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Mass immigration REDUCES PAY FOR LOW SKILLED WORKERS. Not my words but that of the bank of england
You keep repeating this, but it's not anywhere near as black and white as you imply. The effect is small (less than 1%), short term, and the effects are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are immigrants themselves. This issue has been done to death somewhere (probably many places) in the last 1218 pages, but you can look at:
https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour-market-effects-immigration/
At least we will have control and it becomes a voting issue.
...
Germany have started closing the doors, in 2015 they took in 890,000, the following year it dropped to 280,000. If immigration is so good for the economy and the country as a whole why have dramatically reduced it?
Can you explain how Germany - an EU member, lest we forget - is seemingly perfectly able to reduce it's immigration, yet we need to leave the EU in order to "take back control" and do the same?
A large majority – two thirds – of the public want to see immigration reduced and this includes voters of all ethnicities.
Can you think why non-EU migrants might want to reduce EU immigration?
The uncomfortable truth here is that the UK needs migrant workers, from doctors to fruit-pickers. Even assuming it to be true that we need to leave the EU to 'control are boarders' (spoiler: it isn't), this would only apply to EU immigration. We're not about to brick up the Channel Tunnel post-Brexit, quite the opposite. And if net EU immigration goes down, non-EU migration will almost certainly go up.
Where would you prefer your immigrants to be coming from, Poland or ****stan?
and yet Germany have started closing the doors, in 2015 they took in 890,000, the following year it dropped to 280,000. If immigration is so good for the economy and the country as a whole why have dramatically reduced it?
Please don't confuse immigration with mass refugees. The bulk of those 890000 were fleeing conflict in Syria and arrived in Europe en masse in that year (almost 500k applications for asylum were made). Germany was the only country prepared/able to take such large numbers. That their economy has been able to absorb them is commendable. And why did the numbers drop so dramatically afterwards? Maybe because the worst of the Syrian refugee crisis was by then over.
So, what, if anything, has this got to do with the EU and inter European workers moving around to take up employment?
And why is a Polish plumber in the UK an immigrant, while the British owner of a bar on the Costa del Sol is an Ex Pat?
But didn’t we have some control anyway that we didn’t exercise? Therefore it was already a voting issue, in theory?
We can limit non eu immigration but not EU, freedom of movement innit. Unless there is some loophole that I am not aware of. But the EU is still using its powers to force eu nations to take non eu immigrants as well.
1) Why do you think this?
2) What opportunities do you think there might be?
I dabble with a bit of share dealing too. World trade will boom for many uk businesses after brexit. Some may not adapt and find themselves struggling or even out of business but for those that do apapt and have the right products and services, they have a great opportunity. Much depends on how the UK sets its stall out on tariffs and taxation and what level the pound settles at in relation to the euro. Tech companies like Arm that export stand out but I'm not investing in anything yet til I see the lie of the land post brexit.
You keep repeating this, but it’s not anywhere near as black and white as you imply. The effect is small (less than 1%), short term, and the effects are likely to be greatest for resident workers who are immigrants themselves. This issue has been done to death somewhere (probably many places) in the last 1218 pages, but you can look at:
onewheelgood - yes you are right. Its not significant but its still a downward pressure on low paid wages which has been denied elsewhere hence why I brought it up.
Can you explain how Germany – an EU member, lest we forget – is seemingly perfectly able to reduce it’s immigration, yet we need to leave the EU in order to “take back control” and do the same?
cougar - germany are slowing non eu immigration, as far as I am aware they have no control over eu immigration. But we are talking about Brexit I here you cry! Yes we are but outlining the scale of the problem gives it context.
The uncomfortable truth here is that the UK needs migrant workers, from doctors to fruit-pickers. Even assuming it to be true that we need to leave the EU to ‘control are boarders’ (spoiler: it isn’t), this would only apply to EU immigration. We’re not about to brick up the Channel Tunnel post-Brexit, quite the opposite. And if net EU immigration goes down, non-EU migration will almost certainly go up.
cougar - for me that's a comfortable truth, I agree. Why shouldn't we bring in the skills that we need, whether that be doctors or fruit pickers. But currently the UK has no strategy for identfying skills shortages and promoting them and preventing those that don't complement them. EU migration doesn't necessarily need to go up if non eu immigration comes down, its down to the government of the day lay out their plans in a manifesto and for the public to decide what they read.
Where would you prefer your immigrants to be coming from, Poland or ****stan?
I don't give a shit if they come from mars as long as they are contributing to the economy and society as a whole including integrating with mainstream british society..
100 storey office blocks for your own stats ?
You should send them to the UK government.
Now the more I read the more I'm landing on dear old Jamby but it could just be somebody recycling his material. The inability to accept being proved wrong is strong here.
Anyway 3 choices
Stay
Go
Cut our heads off to prove a point.
We can limit non eu immigration but not EU, freedom of movement innit. Unless there is some loophole that I am not aware of.
http://lawyers-inforbritain.uk/b-m-a/can-the-uk-control-its-borders-if-it-remains-in-the-eu/
Some points from that article and the linked-to EU document:
1) Immigration can be subject to 'public policy' whatever that means
2) Immigration from non-EU countries is higher. This we have control over already. So if it's such a big deal why do we not control what we ARE able to anyway? Don't you get the feeling you are being played, dickens?
Another one:
Why shouldn’t we bring in the skills that we need, whether that be doctors or fruit pickers.
You have to appreciate (and Jamba never did) that coming to a country under strict visa obligations is pretty different to having the right to seek work there. How can you settle properly when your right to be in a country hangs on a job? Lose your job, get sent home. Not that attractive of a proposition, is it?
But Singapore does it (for high flying people who can afford the sudden change in circumstances)
People who dislike the idea will never be swayed from the facts, they will also compartmentalise "Good Immigrants" as the ones that they talk to or are friends partners etc. with the "Bad ones" who they never meet.
The more they try and explain it the worse it gets.
My daughters have become best friends with a kid on our street, her parents are Romanian. One drives a bus, the other works in McDonalds part time. The kids are white and don't have an accent. Are they the good kind of immigrant or the bad kind?
The McDonalds still has a vacancies sign in the window, and the bus company - well, it's a new company just starting up to try and take some of the near monopoly of Cardiff Bus. Not sure if he's taken someone's job or not.