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ep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.
Did you vote for Theresa May to be PM?
How many senior civil servants did you vote for?
Can you point to a specific regulation or law from Europe that you object to and has made your life worse which the UK government tried to oppose?
Both the EU and the UK are run by elected representatives.
Cougar - not true, the EU Comission are not elected and have a range of powers including being the only ones able to propose legislation which MEP's cannot do.
It’s quite possible to be British and European, you know.
I know and I'm proud of being English and European. I just don't want to be in the EU.
Sorry youre correct there but they are in the Single Market is that what you are suggesting we do?
kimbers - Switzerlands model is unique and is not completely in the single market but accepts some ecj jurisdiction. Norway, turkey, Ukraine, Canada, Japan etc all have their own individual deals. We need our own unique deal that works for us. I said the swiss customs model is one we could look at, I never said we would have the exact same deal and circumstances.
you also still reckon its ‘indisputible’ that food will be cheaper under WTO?
Nope, never said that. I said its indisputable that we can set our tariffs on food to zero if we so wish. I also said food is cheaper outside the EU, i didn't say this was indisuptable as I haven't researched and compared every single food product available but there is plenty of info out there to support that assertion.
The EU supplies us with a whole range of goods that we do not produce or have limited capabilty including Pharma equipment, robot milking machines, bacon, machine tools, tractors etc etc etc we dont have a *ing choice you stupid * the EU on the other hand actually do.
The stupidity is breathtakingly impressive.
Oldmanmtb - And? Why can we not still buy this stuff from the EU? Average tariffs range from 1.5% to 2.5% depending on which source you read. Yes cars (10%) and bikes (14%) have high tariffs but most products do not.
Rabb looks like he has shit his pants each time he stands next to Barnier
Agreed.
Farage makes Boris look honest
Farage has been one of most consistent politicians currently in politics. Look at is speeches from 20 years ago and compare to today.
ive yet to hear them ever give any answer, never mind a credible answer, when asked to give one real example about how the EU has made their life worse. They simply can’t do it. It’s just platitudes and buzzwords about control etc.
Boardin bob - Therein lies the issue with a lot of remainers. They are non issues to you so by your logic they must be non issues to everyone.
most of all the manipulation of the populace by a relatively small number of rich people who stand to gain vastly from us leaving.
cougar - lots of fat cats stand to lose if immigration of low skilled workers is restricted. Mass imigration casues low skilled wages to reduce and middle and high earners to increase. Genuinely interested on how do you think they would profit from Brexit?
Well perhaps if the MEPs that the British voted to represent them turned up and had them balls to lead rather than bitch and moan then the dominant voice would be theirs.
Cornholio - This is part of the problem, our elected MEP's have limited powers.
That’s not really an answer, I’m afraid. There’s no solution in what you said. Ok, so it’s not your job to come up with one, I understand that – but the issue is you seem to be trusting the people whose job it is when they have not done anything to suggest they deserve our trust.
molgrips - I thought it was a pretty good solution and I think has a good chance of being accepted, whats wrong with it?
1) What’s wrong with Germans and why can’t they be involved in our lives?
Absolutely nothing wrong with them. This question from you is typical of the PC brigade where if you question someone of a minority group or group different from your own then you must be racist or have some issue with a nationality. This is why we don't have stop and search and is in large part why there are so many stabbings in London. To answer your question, I like having them involved in our lives. You would be on shaky ground to deny that Germany are the dominant member of the EU and have the greatest influence. Quite simply I don't want British lives to be determined by a German Government that has different goals, ideals and views than our own.
2) What’s the difference between you having to do what a German wants (if that even happens) and a Scottish person having to do what an English person wants (this definitely happens)?
Great question. Quite right that's exactly what happens. Personally I think that our ideas, views and values are quite closely aligned which is why we have been together so long. I'm pro democracy, if Scotland doesn't like the way the UK is going then I think they should be free to leave and would support and respect their decision.
3) The EU is not undemocratic. This is spin, put out by leavers. You have democratic representation in the EU just like you do in Westminster. You have an unelected civil service just like the EU does. You also have an unelected second chamber, which the EU does not have. So the EU is in fact more democratic than the UK.
This one is even better. The unlelected commission are the only ones that can propose laws which form the very basis of rule. They are not responsible and unaccountable for decisions. This law making gets done in secret. They have an integrationist agenda and many feel they represent multinationals stifling small business with complicated regulatory frameworks. Every time there is a vote that goes the wrong way it is re run until the 'right' decision is made. Presidents are voted in when there's is the only name on the ballot paper like some third world dictatorial state. The commission has historically been full of corrupt cronies such as the commissioner in charge of fraud that had previously been charged with fraud. Once a law parliament has no power to change that law, the power rests solely with the commission. The European court of justice is a kangaroo court wilfully supporting the integrationaist agenda and ignoring the rule of law when it suits them.
Its a highly undemocratic organisation gaining more and more power every day regardless of public opinion.
It should never have got to the position it has which is the failure of successive governments to tackle the problem. Thats we we are in the situation we are in. The best we can hope for is to be rid of its clutches and maybe one day it can be reformed but I doubt it. Please don't say we can't change it if we are not in it, we haven't been able to change it for decades, we've tried that.
Oldmanmtb – And? Why can we not still buy this stuff from the EU? Average tariffs range from 1.5% to 2.5% depending on which source you read. Yes cars (10%) and bikes (14%) have high tariffs but most products do not.
So prices for UK consumers and business rise?
Cornholio – This is part of the problem, our elected MEP’s have limited powers.
I'm sure some of the loudest voices have no idea of the power of MEP's because all they did was claim expenses and never show up. All the issues that are so key to them they forgot to attend debates or votes on.
Its a highly undemocratic organisation gaining more and more power every day regardless of public opinion.
Saying it again doesn't make it true.
So prices for UK consumers and business rise?
For someone that is not talking to me mikewsmith you are remarkably chatty. Stuff that we continue to get from the EU will rise in price yes. Other stuff that we don't probably won't cancelling the other out.
I’m sure some of the loudest voices have no idea of the power of MEP’s because all they did was claim expenses and never show up. All the issues that are so key to them they forgot to attend debates or votes on.
Well having competent MEP's is a separate discussion. The fact is MEP's have limited power anyway.
Saying it again doesn’t make it true.
You either believe it or you don't.
Belief doesn't change facts, as for whatever you think I'm doing I'll just stick to pointing out your mistakes.
And yes products from the eu go up in price, until we sort out trade deals most other stuff does too so you just made the UK less competitive. Couple that with countries being able to add tariffs to UK goods we export it's a double hit.
3 steps back none forward.
Quite simply I don’t want British lives to be determined by a German Government that has different goals, ideals and views than our own.
There’s so much to pick at, but I’ll just restrict myself to this one and let everybody pile in on the rest.
Your life is ‘determined’ by other people’s goals, ideals and views? What are you, some kind of sock puppet?
I think you’ll find that Frau Merkel’s government, being a coalition, has many different ideals and views even within itself. The amazing thing is how it all hangs together without repeated attempted putsches from swivel-eyed backbenchers as happens in the Maybot’s equivalent. Unlike here, ‘Strong and stable’ seems to mean just that. They can all agree a single direction without throwing a hissy fit every five minutes. But then they are all about the goal of neighbourly cooperation, not that of acting like arses.
Given the percentage split of the original vote on Brexit, perhaps you need to think about what you mean by ‘our’.
molgrips – I thought it was a pretty good solution and I think has a good chance of being accepted, whats wrong with it?
Sorry I didn't see a concrete plan there can you elaborate?
Quite simply I don’t want British lives to be determined by a German Government that has different goals, ideals and views than our own.
But British lives are already being determined by a British government with different goals, ideals and views to many people. I have more in common with many Germans than I do with the UK government. But somehow I have to accept it because they are BRITISH. The point I am getting at is that nationalism is stupid. For most of my life I've had a government that is pretty strongly opposed to everything I value, and I'm opposed to everything they value. I don't give a shit where they happen to have been born. So you'll forgive me for wanting my future to be influenced by people from countries whose values I do in fact share.
The unlelected commission are the only ones that can propose laws which form the very basis of rule.
So wait, they only propose laws? I thought you said they made (i.e. enacted) them? Pretty sure proposing something isn't the same as enacting it.
One of my favourite things about the EU however is that they are supra-national. They legislate for things like the environment and consumer or worker protection, which are important and all too easy for a short termist national government to chuck on a bonfire. I WANT my government moderated by others, especially those from other countries as they have a different perspective on things.
Quite right that’s exactly what happens. Personally I think that our ideas, views and values are quite closely aligned
You have to be joking. Just out of interest, how much time have you spent living and working with other EU nationals? Or in other EU countries?
It should never have got to the position it has which is the failure of successive governments to tackle the problem. Thats we we are in the situation we are in.
The British political system is completely bollocksed too. As are most. I really don't understand why you think you think British politicans are some shining beacon of brillance and only the dastardly EU have stopped us achieving greatness. Our politicians are so shit that I really want the EU moderating them. I look at the legislation and other stuff the EU creates and I keep thanking my lucky stars that we have it. I don't think the UK will do any better, I think they will in fact trash it. We will lose environmental and social protection.
Environmental and workforce protection legislation costs money. By tying neighbouring countries to trading with each other, and then forcing the legislation on them all, you are putting trading partners on the same standing. If it weren't for the EU, countries would be forced to cut these things to compete with each other, and the continent would be shitter as a result. This shitness is absolutely inevitable outside the EU.
Another brexiter trope is the ECJ.
Exactly what's wrong with having a supranational legal body independent of individual governments?
Wouldn't you like to have a higher authority you could appeal to if your own country's legislature was interfered with for political reasons?
What laws enforced by the European Court are you most looking forward to not following?
Cougar – not true, the EU Comission are not elected and have a range of powers including being the only ones able to propose legislation which MEP’s cannot do.
I don't actually know whether that's true or not so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But the key word here is propose. Proposing something is a world apart from making or controlling laws.
The EU Commission is the equivalent of our Civil Service. Why aren't you objecting to them?
Genuinely interested on how do you think they would profit from Brexit?
For one thing it's a tax dodge. Look at Tim Martin or Aaron Banks.
Quite simply I don’t want British lives to be determined by a German Government that has different goals, ideals and views than our own.
Which German goal / ideal / view do you disagree with?
Every proposed EU law that our MEPs have voted on has gone the way we've voted. Even if what you say here is true and it is those nasty Germans pulling our strings, we've agreed with them every time. If that weren't the case then you might have a good point, but we're not getting anything imposed on us that we didn't want.
Right - tangent:
What if there were a second vote, with the option to remain on the ballot, and it won? What would happen on the day and the week following?
What what laws enforced by the European Court are you most looking forward to not following?
So Dom has just given a speech about what happens in the event of a No Deal Brexit
It appears that it would basically involve the instigation of new levels of bureaucracy that would make a 1970's Labour council blush.
So much for this bonfire of red tape?
What if there were a second vote
Third vote.
Every proposed EU law that our MEPs have voted on has gone the way we’ve voted.
Not quite true. If you're going to bandy around absolute statements, you're going to get pulled up if they're not absolutely true.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-uk-influence/
What if there were a second vote, with the option to remain on the ballot, and it won? What would happen on the day and the week following?
The 2016 referendum was an idiotic question, which is why we're in this mess. No way could you ask the same question again. The actual options actually available should be on the ballot.
The actual options actually available should be on the ballot.
exactly the leave factions would be split so badly it would be over as they all voted for incompatible options
Indeed. NOT putting all the real actual options on the ballot could be seen as rigging the vote.
I don’t actually know whether that’s true or not so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. But the key word here is propose. Proposing something is a world apart from making or controlling laws.
its just ignorance of how the EU works & (deliberately?) misleading
the comission proposes laws from 3 sources: its own initiatives, other EU bodies(including parliament) or EU citizens inititives (the latter being an opportunity for citizens to directly create laws, with no equivalent in UK law)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiative
Not quite true. If you’re going to bandy around absolute statements, you’re going to get pulled up if they’re not absolutely true.
I was not aware of that and had been misinformed, thank you for the correction.
What if there were a second vote
Well 52 / 48 is the "will of the people"
So if its 47 / 53 then surely there could be no possible come back.
We know from another recent referendum that 45 / 55 settles the matter for a "generation"
brexit = a shit tonne of extra bureaucracy
https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1032576459796361216
the protect and survive should go with
I was not aware of that and had been misinformed, thank you for the correction.
No worries, I thought it would be a great one to repeat, but wanted to make sure it was correct. I was going to ask you to sight your sauce, but I thought that might have come across as snippy, and pointless anyway when I could JFGI quicker.
I was going to ask you to sight your sauce
Brown obvs when control has been taken back... er - over there, somewhere...
not true, the EU Comission are not elected
Sigh. Yes they are.
both the president (Juncker) and the individual commissioners are ELECTED by the European Parliament. We elected MEPs to represent us in that European Parliament and they act on our behalf
Don't engage with the "new" troll, unless you're also having some weird kind of fun.
No idea why they haven't had their account suspended already, to be honest. Blatent.
I reckon I'm going to set myself up as a customs agency. Looks like that's going to be the boom industry of 2019.
Ker-ching!!!
Commentary on the new papers:
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/no-deal-dominic-raab-brexit_uk_5b7ea109e4b0cd327dfa44ca
The lack of detail on the Irish border is perhaps to be expected – it is, after all, one of the main stumbling blocks in the negotiations with the EU. If the government knew how to operate an independent trade policy without border checks, then there would be no need for ‘no deal’ planning at all.
…and… back to the beginning of this thread…
Calling the referendum, without stating a policy for dealing with Ireland when only part of the Island is in the EU, was downright dangerous. Allowing all the Brexit Cheerleaders to keep waving their hands in the air FOR YEARS and claiming that someone else will sort this out, somehow. Somebody else's problem. Triggering A50 without formulating a policy for Ireland was also unforgivable, so it's not just members of the previous government that need to think about what they have unleashed, most sitting MPs do.
tick, tock
both the president (Juncker) and the individual commissioners are ELECTED by the European Parliament. We elected MEPs to represent us in that European Parliament and they act on our behalf
Wrong - whilst Juncker is kind of elected though the Spitzenkandidat of the EPP, the Commission is appointed. The Parliament is required to confirm it, but this is only on a total basis not an individual basis so there is no election.
its just ignorance of how the EU works & (deliberately?) misleading
It is far closer to reality than what you are suggesting, despite the parliament now having some rights, the vast majority of legislation is initiated by the Commission, in some areas they can bring it into law directly, in further areas they are required to get agreement from the Council of Minsters but not the Parliament, and finally there are some areas where both parliament and Council have to agree. The ECI is just a glorified petition process like the one we have in the UK.
Any student of government and power that knows that the power to put stuff forward is one of the key powers, if you can't do this you can only react. Christ, the European Parliament doesn't even have the right to amend legislation, where it has any powers, it can only reject. Further any Executive also has significant day to day powers which don't require parliamentary oversight.
The EU Commission is the equivalent of our Civil Service. Why aren’t you objecting to them?
No it isn't because it has the equivalent powers of Ministers who are in the UK generally elected members of the governing party and are accountable to parliament.
For one thing it’s a tax dodge. Look at Tim Martin or Aaron Banks.
Pray tell how so, or are you just smearing someone whose opinion you don't like.
Anyway good to see lots of support for my theory that the strength of opinion is inversely correlated with the knowledge of the subject.
Did you vote for Theresa May to be PM?
How many senior civil servants did you vote for?
Can you point to a specific regulation or law from Europe that you object to and has made your life worse which the UK government tried to oppose?
oldnpastit - good questions, clearly life in the old dog yet. No I didn't but I think we should have had a vote. I think if a leader resigns there should be a general election. The previous leaders manifesto is evidently void.
none
This is not about individual laws, its about the bigger issues. Some people voted leave because of immigration, some because of the lack of democracy, corruption, protectionism, maybe a small business owner vote leave because the EU is favouring the multinationals, maybe its the fisherman whos livelihood has been devestated with limited quotas, some wanted sovereignty, some feared nationas such as Turkey joining which were ill suited to the bloc, the membership fee I could go on. Some people including me voted leave because it was an accumulation of all those things.
Sorry I didn’t see a concrete plan there can you elaborate?
molgrips heres the dickens border plan:-
“Heres wot i wrote: On the Irish border, there already is a border. Even if a more robust one was put in, I thinks there’s around 200 entry points. Its just not realistic to put a hard border in and its unacceptable to the North and the Republic. Technology can play a part. Realistically 99% of goods going over the border will be a fella filling his van up with whatever is cheaper over the border. For heavy goods that are far easier to track it shouldn’t be an issue.
I added later that Small business traffic moving goods could be permissible as part of the deal. Think of it like when you go to the tip in your car but commercial vehicles have to pay. An exception needs to be made because of the sensitive political situation in N Ireland.”
But British lives are already being determined by a British government with different goals, ideals and views to many people. I have more in common with many Germans than I do with the UK government. But somehow I have to accept it because they are BRITISH. The point I am getting at is that nationalism is stupid. For most of my life I’ve had a government that is pretty strongly opposed to everything I value, and I’m opposed to everything they value. I don’t give a shit where they happen to have been born. So you’ll forgive me for wanting my future to be influenced by people from countries whose values I do in fact share.
Unfortunately molgrips you and your views are in the minority which is why what you want never gets voted in and which is probably why you gravitate here...
One of my favourite things about the EU however is that they are supra-national. They legislate for things like the environment and consumer or worker protection, which are important and all too easy for a short termist national government to chuck on a bonfire. I WANT my government moderated by others, especially those from other countries as they have a different perspective on things.
Fair point, Its not what I want but we are all different.
You have to be joking. Just out of interest, how much time have you spent living and working with other EU nationals? Or in other EU countries?
More than you know but to reveal more would reveal my identity (-; And anyway I was referring to Scotland.
The British political system is completely bollocksed too. As are most. I really don’t understand why you think you think British politicans are some shining beacon of brillance and only the dastardly EU have stopped us achieving greatness. Our politicians are so shit that I really want the EU moderating them. I look at the legislation and other stuff the EU creates and I keep thanking my lucky stars that we have it. I don’t think the UK will do any better, I think they will in fact trash it. We will lose environmental and social protection.
I agree it is bollocksed but I think we have one of the best democracies and political systems in the world. Its far from perfect but relatively speaking its good. Have you spent any time in an EU country and looked at their democratic and political values? Look at Spain, we most definitely are a shining beacon compared to them.
Environmental and workforce protection legislation costs money. By tying neighbouring countries to trading with each other, and then forcing the legislation on them all, you are putting trading partners on the same standing. If it weren’t for the EU, countries would be forced to cut these things to compete with each other, and the continent would be shitter as a result. This shitness is absolutely inevitable outside the EU.
A valid point, I like debating with you molgrips, you have a clear view but also one of the few that genuinely seem to want to learn through debate. I have a business background so my core beliefs are rooted in letting market forces dictate the market but I can understand why you have this view and get where you're coming from. I believe the EU is inherently on the left and I,which I am sure you are aware, am on the centre right (well maybe a bit right of centre right...) so I can see how your values match that of the EU's.
There's another couple I want to get to but need to nip out.
Troll.
Well 52 / 48 is the “will of the people”
So if its 47 / 53 then surely there could be no possible come back.
We know from another recent referendum that 45 / 55 settles the matter for a “generation”
😀
I believe the EU is inherently on the left and I,which I am sure you are aware, am on the centre right (well maybe a bit right of centre right…) so I can see how your values match that of the EU’s.
And this is the core of the issue really. Your attitude is neoliberal, and I think a huge amount of the problems of the UK are caused by this attitude. If you let people do what they want, (most of) the rich will ALWAYS exploit the poor, it's inevitable. And I don't think this is fair or desirable. Therefore I'm left of centre, I cannot see any other moral position.
Now you might say the EU is neoliberal in itself, and yes it is in parts, but also not in others e.g. the environment. Pure market forces let the cheapest thing win, and every employee is experiencing conditions and pay only just above those which make the job intolerable. So everyone is miserable.
Unfortunately molgrips you and your views are in the minority which is why what you want never gets voted in
Indeed. But should the majority tyrannise the minority, or should there be a workable compromise?
And here is the other huge problem with Brexit, besides the result - its execution. Both in having the referendum, setting the question, and acting on the result. On so many levels. Even if the result is representative - very nearly half the country was pissed off before, and very nearly half of it is pissed off now only our economy's going to be trashed and people will be financially and socially worse off.
A decision of this magnitude should NEVER have been put to a referendum without a mountain of planning and a great many safeguards. Regardless of which way you voted it's been a balls up from start to finish. Defending the actions of this and the previous government requires a gigantic amount of bias.
Exactly what’s wrong with having a supranational legal body independent of individual governments?</span>
Wouldn’t you like to have a higher authority you could appeal to if your own country’s legislature was interfered with for political reasons?
What laws enforced by the European Court are you most looking forward to not following?
Richmtb -
The ECJ, like all EU bodies, is focused on expanding the scope of its own powers (and reducing sovereign nation powers), its new weapon being the charter of fundamental rights. The ECJ exists to further the European Union project and has liberalised the internal market and worked to inhibit members from trading externally. ( I understand that to some on here thats fine, bullly for you) .
I've said a couple of times on here that the EU supports the large multinationals and makes it difficult for small businesses, for the UK being the 'nation of shopkeepers' this is a problem. The ECJ supports large businesses that use complex tax avoidance structures with the parent business in one state and the subsidiary in another effectively making it more difficult to tax the likes of Amazon etc and making it more diffiult for the small business to compete. Why do you think the Uk government has been so poor at chasing them and why are they proposing an internet tax instead of just chasing the company down for more tax?
It makes up its own rules and breaks laws. Here's some bedtime reading for you about some of the ECJ issues around the Greece bail out:
I don’t actually know whether that’s true or not so I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt. But the key word here is propose. Proposing something is a world apart from making or controlling laws.
The EU Commission is the equivalent of our Civil Service. Why aren’t you objecting to them?
Cougar - Because the senior civil service in the UK doesn't have the monopoly on proposing new laws.
For one thing it’s a tax dodge. Look at Tim Martin or Aaron Banks.
What? How is it a tax dodge? Are you saying that Leave didn't spend all their money? I don't doubt he's a dodgy character but for fat cats remain is the side of choice, definitely not leave. Look at Soros, superdry guy and the rest of sweatshop gangsters all lining to to support remain, soros doesn't even live here.
Which German goal / ideal / view do you disagree with?
Every proposed EU law that our MEPs have voted on has gone the way we’ve voted. Even if what you say here is true and it is those nasty Germans pulling our strings, we’ve agreed with them every time. If that weren’t the case then you might have a good point, but we’re not getting anything imposed on us that we didn’t want.
The EU laws are numerous, I read somewhere there's a figure of 55,000 created in recent years. Some of them might be the technical detail of the description of a sausage. I think Germany has an integrationist agenda which suits their export market. They have a ready huge market on the same currency to buy their cars and washing machines. naturally they want to continue to develop closer ties. The countrys shame from the war means they have to atone and take in millions of refugees (1 million in a single year). I think they have 7 million now, no doubt there families will come over quadrupling that figure. I've been to Germany and I can tell you there is little integration going on. We don't want ever closer integration, we just want a trading bloc.
The ECJ supports large businesses that use complex tax avoidance structures with the parent business in one state and the subsidiary in another effectively making it more difficult to tax the likes of Amazon etc and making it more diffiult for the small business to compete. Why do you think the Uk government has been so poor at chasing them and why are they proposing an internet tax instead of just chasing the company down for more tax?
So let me get this straight: If it weren't for the EU, the very Tory UK government would be collecting lots more tax from slippery multinationals?
I have the Tories all wrong then, I thought they liked low taxation.
We don’t want ever closer integration, we just want a trading bloc.
But on the other hand, imagine we were fully integrated already? Imagine it's 100 years in the future and the UK remains and ends up part of the United States of Europe. So what? Would you really care? How many Americans resent the people from the next State being able to affect their own? Virtually none. The country is (geographically) integrated and yet no-one cares. In fact anyone with an opinion is probably proud of that fact.
So why should we worry about it? Those damn Germans are only damn Germans because we've decided they are. If we simply decided we were European then the problem would go away.
In other words - it's all in our heads.
So let me get this straight: If it weren’t for the EU, the very Tory UK government would be collecting lots more tax from slippery multinationals?
Yes. The ECJ has legalised complex tax avoidance structures for large businesses which gives them an unfair advantage over the small business.
Why have they done that? I don't know, maybe its the huge amount of money these big businesses have been spending on lobbying them. The ECJ are literally a law unto themselves and aren't subject to the same scrutiny that UK courts are so I don't doubt corruption is involved.
But on the other hand, imagine we were fully integrated already? Imagine it’s 100 years in the future and the UK remains and ends up part of the United States of Europe. So what? Would you really care? How many Americans resent the people from the next State being able to affect their own? Virtually none. The country is (geographically) integrated and yet no-one cares. In fact anyone with an opinion is probably proud of that fact.
So why should we worry about it? Those damn Germans are only damn Germans because we’ve decided they are. If we simply decided we were European then the problem would go away.
In other words – it’s all in our heads.
Molgrips - you've answered your own question in a previous post. You said pretty much all your life you've had a government strongly opposed to all that you value. How do you think that will change when they inevitably add more countries to the Bloc? Are your values aligned to that of Turkey? The values get diluted and then represent no one. It doesn't work and thats why throughout history countries have broken apart. To force them together is a recipe for one thing - war.
How many Americans resent the people from the next State being able to affect their own? Virtually none. The country is (geographically) integrated and yet no-one cares. In fact anyone with an opinion is probably proud of that fact.
there is huge partisanship in the states and they hare federal intervention. You know that in Texas in schools they pledge their allegiance to Texas first then to either god or the USA I forget which order. Every freaking day!
They teach state history every year but don't have to teach world or US history. Each state stands alone for police, laws, environmental regulations, taxes and things like drivers licenses or IDs.
In many ways the EU is more integrated, with better communication and collaboration. For example no one is afraid the EU parliament might send troops to take away their stuff...
Yes.
I'm deeply sceptical. But what's to stop these companies lobbying the UK government after Brexit?
there is huge partisanship in the states
Nothing like there is in the EU though very obviously.
Each state stands alone for police, laws, environmental regulations, taxes
No it doesn't, because they still have Federal rules and taxes etc. on top of state.
The ECJ protects my rights from governments over reaching into my life. I need that protection here, and more importantly non-UK EEA citizens I call family and friends REALLY need that protection here.
Now I'm responding to the troll. Damn. I can smell the shit right up in my nostrils. Pehaps I should set up another STW account to engage with the troll, and keep my own, named, transparent account clean. I think that's against the spirit of the rules of this forum though, no?
I’m deeply sceptical. But what’s to stop these companies lobbying the UK government after Brexit?
None whatsoever but the legal system in the UK is one of the best in the world and I like to think good at preventing corruption and also the government here has more control and is able to propose and make laws. Once laws are enshrined in EU law we're stuffed.
Well on the plus side he's putting a lot of effort into his BS, it shows the sort of commitment that was drifting away from the previous trolls, it's almost back the the pre-flounce Brexit Evangelists, remember the good old days when Jamby would tell us all about Schrodinger's Tariff, or ninfan could get 4 replies in without shouting snowflake or lefties.
It's admirable really, if only he spent as much time on research and checking for contradictions.
yes there are federal rules and minimum taxes. States set the rules regarding punishment for crimes and how to police. This is how some states have the death penalty and others don’t. To give you an example you can drive from one side of Houston to the other and you will pass though various jurisdictions (city of xxx police) now on this trip in some of the cities you can drive on the phone and others just holding it is a 160$ fine.
Each state has unique drivers training requirements and vehicle licensing, taxing and inspection.
Each state has its own environmental regulations which may follow the EPA but in many cases have local dispensation for land which is not federally controlled.
hell if you live outside of city limits there is no planning control.
I would suggest you move to the USA and then relocate between three or four different states to see the differences not just between city laws but state ones.
i will concede that the flag waving nationalism is different but it is still there and the states fight each other for funding and business
The ECJ protects my rights from governments over reaching into my life. I need that protection here, and more importantly non-UK EEA citizens I call family and friends REALLY need that protection here.
Wow let me borrow your rose tinted spectacles... The ECJ doesn't give a shit about you it only cares about its own advancement, greater powers and closer integration. You have no recourse to the ECJ they are not accountable or responsible to you. If you want to give that away then I think you're a fool. (I only called you a fool as I was conforming to your troll stereotype but I meant the rest (-; )
Well on the plus side he’s putting a lot of effort into his BS, it shows the sort of commitment that was drifting away from the previous trolls, it’s almost back the the pre-flounce Brexit Evangelists, remember the good old days when Jamby would tell us all about Schrodinger’s Tariff, or ninfan could get 4 replies in without shouting snowflake or lefties.
It’s admirable really, if only he spent as much time on research and checking for contradictions.
Well mikewsmith you keep talking to me even when you say you have stopped and then keep talking about me. Maybe you're a closet leaver too afraid to resist the bully boys of remain? Brexit is a stab in the dark, I understand the fear, its never been done before. You can sit on your fat ass all your life and achieve nothing or you can get up, fight the fear and try and change your world (or some such shit...).
i will concede that the flag waving nationalism is different
That was my main point. People consider themselves mainly as 'American' not 'Idahoan' or whatever.
What if there were a second vote, with the option to remain on the ballot, and it won? What would happen on the day and the week following?
Lord knows really, the maddening thing is that the loudest voices on the Leave side are the most polarised - pre-referendum it was all "no ones saying anything about leaving the single market" "we want a stronger relationship with the EU, only from outside of it" etc etc, but as soon as the votes were counted the battle lines just shifted - they're calling from us to leave, now, today, don't give 'em a penny, etc etc.
If there is another vote, and history shows us it's actually likely - and lets pretend they go for for a Clash style "stay" or "go" and remain wins - it's unlikely that another PM in a generation is going to dare bring it up again, win, lose or draw the last 2 years have been highly damaging to the UK, both economically and socially.
we (Remainers) can't just start gloating "you lost, get over it" plaster the country in EU flags and pretend it didn't happen.
We can't pretend that all Leavers were a bunch of right wing nutters who don't like Pole and Turks and believe it's all 'elf and safety gone mad from the EU and there are some aspects of EU membership that doesn't seem right to a lot of sensible people.
Okay, the PM could cosy up to the Sun and Mail and sell the idea we're "getting tough on the EU" but in reality we should work with the EU to change the particulars of the EU to work for more people, but we can't ask Westminster alone to do it, Brits are going to have to give a shit about EU elections, so we don't end up with only Kippers and Nazis voting a bunch of arseholes to rep us there and Westminster HAS to stop blaming the EU every time it wants to pass and unpalatable law.
Brexit is a stab in the dark, I understand the fear, its never been done before. You can sit on your fat ass all your life and achieve nothing or you can get up, fight the fear and try and change your world (or some such shit…).
Yep after 2 years nobody can come up with a plan.
We did achieve something, we built the largest trading block on the planet, we funded huge amounts of development, protected peoples rights and worked to improve the environment. We united a continent that had been at war for far too long, put petty differences aside and promoted equality over nationalism.
Is that not working to build something, all you have offered is to burn it all down.
in reality we should work with the EU to change the particulars of the EU to work for more people, but we can’t ask Westminster alone to do it, Brits are going to have to give a shit about EU elections, so we don’t end up with only Kippers and Nazis voting a bunch of arseholes to rep us there and Westminster HAS to stop blaming the EU every time it wants to pass and unpalatable law.
Oh ffs get real man. We haven't changed a thing in decades why would it change now? The only way we can change the EU is by rejecting it. With a bit of luck it will implode and we can rip it up and start again staying true to its trade roots and abandoning the integrationist agenda.
"...fight the fear and try and change your world"
...Back to what it was 70 years ago.
Brexit is the past.
If you've got the backbone, you'd stick with the new.
i would also like to say that I meant no offence. The US does seem to be a cohesive set of states and I guess for the most part it is. From the inside there is so much less order or Organization than the EU and as far as I can tell there is only one constant law in any state. This is that school buses are king and should be feared. do not ever go near one as no good will come of it...
Yep after 2 years nobody can come up with a plan.
We did achieve something, we built the largest trading block on the planet, we funded huge amounts of development, protected peoples rights and worked to improve the environment. We united a continent that had been at war for far too long, put petty differences aside and promoted equality over nationalism.
Is that not working to build something, all you have offered is to burn it all down.
Ha ha ha ha! Now who's trolling? There's only two words in that lot that are true "we funded".
I understand the fear
I really, really do not believe that you do.
we (Remainers) can’t just start gloating “you lost, get over it” plaster the country in EU flags and pretend it didn’t happen.
No, absolutely. If we were to call the whole thing off, it would be sensible (from both sides of the argument) to try and offer something else in its place. But I said this from the outset, we should be Reform, not merely Remain. There's plenty of stuff we can do right now to put right a lot of the reasons why people said they voted to leave in the first place.
There's no way we can just go "deal's off, sorry, we've changed our minds" and hope it all goes away.
Is there a larger trading block? What is it?
So - development. Good thing, no?
Are rights unprotected?
Is the environment unprotected? Wasn’t there some sort of agreement in Paris?
So has there been another war between EU countries since 1945?
Equality, tick.
Nope, I think it’s you who’s still the troll, bananabrain.
Wrong – whilst Juncker is kind of elected though the Spitzenkandidat of the EPP, the Commission is appointed. The Parliament is required to confirm it, but this is only on a total basis not an individual basis so there is no election.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commissioner
Each Commissioner is first nominated by their member state in consultation with the Commission President. The President's team is then subject to hearings at the European Parliament, which questions them and then votes on their suitability as a whole. If members of the team are found to be inappropriate, the President must then reshuffle the team or request a new candidate from the member state or risk the whole Commission being voted down.
Yes there's a collective vote, however individual candidates can be removed during the process, but either way, they are voted into power by the parliament
Ha ha ha ha! Now who’s trolling? There’s only two words in that lot that are true “we funded”.
Still you though if you missed all the positives I can see how you ended up as a bitter brexiter trying to blame everyone else for problems.
Oh ffs get real man. We haven’t changed a thing in decades why would it change now? The only way we can change the EU is by rejecting it. With a bit of luck it will implode and we can rip it up and start again staying true to its trade roots and abandoning the integrationist agenda.
You're Jambalaya and I claim my £5
You’re Jambalaya and I claim my £5
My money's on teamhurtmore
Nope, I think it’s you who’s still the troll, bananabrain
Woppit - you have contributed absolutely nothing of value to this conversation, all you've done is copy and paste other peoples work. You clearly have all the intelligence of the whitehead spot that's forming on my left buttock. Time for a squeeze...
Does anyone know which one got made redundant recently? Some serious essays being delivered here (well the quantity is serious the content less so)
Woppit – you have contributed absolutely nothing of value to this conversation, all you’ve done is copy and paste other peoples work. You clearly have all the intelligence of the whitehead spot that’s forming on my left buttock. Time for a squeeze…
Mirror mirror on the wall...
Is there a larger trading block? What is it?
So – development. Good thing, no?
Are rights unprotected?
Is the environment unprotected? Wasn’t there some sort of agreement in Paris?
So has there been another war between EU countries since 1945?
Equality, tick.
Originally all mine. Not pasted. Care to deal or carry on looking for more of your own pus?
Yes there’s a collective vote, however individual candidates can be removed during the process, but either way, they are voted into power by the parliament
A confirmation vote doesn't constitute an election - there are no other candidates.
Yes. The ECJ has legalised complex tax avoidance structures for large businesses which gives them an unfair advantage over the small business.
This is not right, whilst they have made some highly inconvenient judgements from the tax authorities perspective, this has generally caused anti-avoidance legislation to be rewritten, they haven't legalised anything.
A confirmation vote doesn’t constitute an election – there are no other candidates.
OK so elected people, nominate, people to represent them and the wishes of their government, like we do at the UN etc. it's ****ing democratic enough for most of us and has done way more good than harm.
it’s **** democratic enough for most of us
It would seem you are wrong because we voted to leave.
It would seem you are wrong because we voted to leave.
Didn't see that one on the ballot paper. Was it above I hate foreigners or below I'm not racist but?
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Was it above I hate foreigners or below I’m not racist but?
Gosh we are really working through the greatest hits.
Well the new troll is taking us back to page 15 so far....
To conclude that everyone who voted leave was concerned by the arrangements for appointments or positions is an exaggeration. It's over reaching.
But then again what we have now is a very simple solution. There are 3 options available to the UK going forward.
1) Leave No Deal - the implications are being widely circulated at the moment.
2) Leave with a deal - nobody seems to have much clue but the starting point is £40bn in payments and then a blank bit of paper.
3) Remain - Still an option.
Which is your preferred one mefty without using "Will of the people" & "We voted to leave" clock is ticking. Which of the 3 options do you think has a majority if put to a vote?
You’re Jambalaya and I claim my £5
My money’s on teamhurtmore
I've pretty much ruled out both of those two too.
(Christ, it's not Fred is it?! 😮)
There are 3 options available to the UK going forward.
I'm becoming more and more convinced that 2) isn't realistically on the table and never has been, because Ireland and because the EU are never going to agree to a cake-and-eat-it scenario. And in any case even if it was, it's a solution neither side wants, it pleases no-one. Best case scenario here is that we're in almost the same position we're already in only we've given away our rights to have any say in anything.
“…fight the fear and try and change your world”
…Back to what it was 70 years ago.
Brexit is the past.
If you’ve got the backbone, you’d stick with the new.
😀
I’ve pretty much ruled out both of those two too.
(Christ, it’s not Fred is it?!
)
Does that matter who they are? 😀
teamhurtmore
No way. For all his faults, tiresomebore would not mix up the consequences of being in the EU with those of being in the Euro.