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oh look ninfans lying, again!
The customs border in switzerland (not in the customs union) has over £400 billion of goods from the EU crossing its borders and only costs £639 million to run. Its something we just need to get good at and the Swiss model is one for us to look at.
switzerland are in schengen & EEA
Yes if we put zero tarriffs on all food then its possible or even probable that our farmers may be undercut. I didn’t actually mean we should just put zero tarriffs on all food, but we will have the choice so we can prop up uncompetitive industries if we so wish.
you dont understand how WTO works, I thought you were going to read the links I posted, seems youll just carry on with your fantasies
The EU agencies is a good one. Common sense needs to prevail and I think it will. I don’t have any problem continuing to pay into some of these agencies providing we are not bound by the ecj etc. The myth of planes being grounded has been well debunked so won’t bother going there.
so the brexit dividend gets ever smaller & ECJ is final arbiter for these agencies, so we will have to obey rules, no loger with UK judges on the court
yay sovereignity
planes- grounded? cite please
hows trumplandia these days?
Was that by magic wand waving?
So your leave the EU plan ends up costing more than it costs to stay in with less of the benefits? Does that fit on a bus?
mikewsmith - we talked about the admin cost of the EU, admin wasn't my term but when I used it I was referring to all the costs of continuing to run everything that the EU will no longer be required to.
kimbers - loving your work! You remind me of one of those people that had a great business idea but never followed it through because instead of opportunities you only saw problems... destined for a lifetime of regret and government handouts.
I might have guessed, an astroturfing brexiteer with an unusually positive outlook as to trade (which doesn’t fit with the facts already posted) and who has a problem with multiculturalism.
I’m out chaps, there’s genuinely nothing to gain with engaging with this poster.
Yep so far all your ideas are costing more than membership for the best part of 10 years before we get to any pay to play trade deal.
Thanks for the contributions pjm and mikewsmith.
"I said on multiculturalism and think its a debate we should be having more of in this country."
Can I keep… bagels, sushi, curry, pizza, pasta, coffee, tea… please. And Christianity, please… I'm not religious, but I feel we have benefited from having the Christians come over here and live among us.
a great business idea but never followed it through because instead of opportunities you only saw problems…
Businesses fail when you ignore, rather than identitify and formulate a plan to mitigate for, problems.
<div class="bbp-reply-author">dickens
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">kimbers – loving your work! You remind me of one of those people that had a great business idea but never followed it through because instead of opportunities you only saw problems… destined for a lifetime of regret and government handouts.
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no actual response then ? facts ever the enemy of the brexiter
The Iron lady at her best:
Yeah okay kimbers if you promise to be nice I'll reply later.
The customs border in switzerland (not in the customs union) has over £400 billion of goods from the EU crossing its borders and only costs £639 million to run.
Yes, but it's a definite border with checks and you get a chat from a border official when you cross it (or at least I did last time I drove through). Lots of people in Northern Ireland simply will not stand for this. Likewise, lots of other people won't stand for a border in the Irish sea. It's not a technological issue we're facing with that, it's a political and/or social one.
The technological possibility was raised not to police the border, but to control goods *without* having a border, so the situation is not like the Swiss one.
But should that mean we don’t trade with developing countries?
No, we absolutely should trade with them, but perhaps we shouldn't buy stuff from them of which they have a limited production capacity; they need in order to survive; and they are vulnerable to supply instability. If we were to say encourage some company to build a factory in an African country making high value goods, that helps them grow but does not risk their food supply.
Exactly the kind of thing, incidentally, that the EU does for the poorer countries within it.
dickens... Actually...
’dick’
FTFY.
Folk still rising to the bait from ninfan .... err .... I mean dickend?
<div class="bbp-reply-author">dickens
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<div class="bbp-reply-content">Yeah okay kimbers if you promise to be nice I’ll reply later.
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its a date!
whenever is good dickens/ninfan/z-11/labrat, im sure you have billy goats to deal with or something
tbf i understand that being proved wrong on trump has upset you so ill cut you some slack
Woppit, dickens may be a brexiter but he's being civil on the forum. You should do the same.
The troll is a brexitier? Why assume that? We know zilch about them, they might just enjoy the wind up and have no skin in the game at all. Still, be civil, yes.
Woppit, dickens may be a brexiter but he’s being civil on the forum.
@molgrips "dickens" joined and made a direct route to the EU thread and jumped in with both feet like he knew exactly where he was... the style is very similar to somebody we all know.
https://singletrackworld.com/members/dickens/forums/replies/
He also seems to love Thatcher - it's trolling
I'm fairly sure it's not ninfan. Could be wrong, but he's done a good job of hiding it if he is.
Cougar – Multiracialism is about acknowledging that we are all composed of people from various races or different cultural backgrounds. Multiracialism as an ideology is one where you seek to avoid the problems associated with multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.
Ah right. So, what, you acknowledge that different people exist, you just don't like them?
scotroutes – the nation voted to leave the EU. By default that means we are in the WTO, there are no other realistic choices. The vote has taken place, get over it princess.
Why do you hate democracy?
I would like us to have many advantageous trade deals around the world but sadly we need to release ourselves from the grips of the EU mafia before that can happen.
Answer me this. Who do you think gets the most preferential deals from their suppliers, Tesco or a corner shop? Which of those two do you think has the greater profit margins?
There may well be disadvantages to trading within the EU. But whatever they may be, whether real or some Brexie fantasy, they are surely outstripped by being a member of the single largest trading organisation in the world. To claim otherwise is either disingenuous or deluded.
The myth of planes being grounded has been well debunked so won’t bother going there.
Has it? Where?
The Open Skies agreement is between the EU and the US. In a "no deal" scenario we fall out of this and something else will have to take its place. Talks are apparently ongoing to reach some sort of agreement but how far that's progressed I don't know. Without it, we aren't flying. "I'm sure everything will be ok" or "they won't let that happen" won't miraculously solve everything, not even if you think it really quite a lot.
There's also the small matter that EU carriers have to be majority-controlled by EU citizens, and the US has a similar policy. So to reach the agreement we already have, airlines will have to simultaneously be controlled by EU and UK citizens. How's that going to work, we gonna be flying Air Schrodinger?
The only major UK carrier which isn't shitting bricks right now is IAG, and when pressed to explain how they were going to square the circle over this the best Willie Walsh could come up with was "magic."
So there you have it, right there. Everything will be fine, because Magic.
I’m fairly sure it’s not ninfan. Could be wrong, but he’s done a good job of hiding it if he is.
Can't you just turn on his webcam and have a look? Or do we wait until we are rid of the pesky European courts?
Can I keep… bagels, sushi, curry, pizza, pasta, coffee, tea…
Yep sure. However that is just food. Still waiting for an answer on why it is wrong to not want to live in a multicultural society? (you know - people, religions etc,. not just food)
And it is Brexit related in as much as it is probably one of the root causes behind the vote.
Selective edit there. I specifically mentioned a religion/faith that is not my own, and the people who follow it that live among us.
Still waiting for an answer on why it is wrong to not want to live in a multicultural society? (you know – people, religions etc,. not just food)
Well if you have tried it and can express the problems you find with it then maybe people can engage on that issue. If you just don't like it cause. then maybe expect a response that assumes that you are intolerant.
Some people want to live in a society that tolerates others and has respect for people, though you need to accept others to get that yourself.
So which are you?
They are Borg.
[ edit - sorry - a bit silly - but I don't expect anything more useful to come out of the "why is intolerance of others so wrong" in vogue nonsense the other poster is wanting us to "explore". ]
Assuming dickens isn’t just a troll, there is an unfortunate hole in his argument.
The benefit in economic activity to the UK of being in the EU and having access to 3rd party countries via EU trade agreements (around 2/3 of our foreign trade) creates enough tax income to easily cover the £8bn or so club subs we pay for membership.
And that’s before we get to the really good stuff like British builders getting to work in Germany when they needed them and we didn’t.
Or long term stability in Western Europe for the first time in hundreds of years.
Dickens I respect your quasi-religious beliefs that we will be better off outside the EU (you are free to believe what you will)- however I question the reality of them. Even Brexmaniacs like JRM and the idiot Johnson don’t hold your extreme views.
Hang on,Dickie = Ninnie ? Why did I not realise ,could cause some confusion here, they're so different.
About six weeks ago I broke my New Year Resolution not to comment on or even read any of the political threads on here because it is a waste of time, and the blatant trolling means that none of the usual suspects on here can be ‘beaten’ in a debate as the debate/argument/ slanging match IS the result for them.
Dickens, you are a troll. You are not even a good one. The idea is to gently reel people in, get them involved timewise, and only then go for the big provocative moves. That way they will feed your habit. Just jumping in and going for the big wind up straight away smacks of desperation.
And with that, I’m reinstating that resolution that I should never have broken.
Dickens is obviously ninfan aka zulu11 aka labrat...... did I miss any ?
That's why he's straight back in with the trolling on multiculturalism & posting up videos of thatcher
I'm not sure why he feels the need to change his logins every now & again,
I guess because his last one had a bit of a meltdown getting pwnd by this very thread when he admitted that he only liked brexit as a trolling tool & didn't like foreign cultures over here.
He's here trolling to try & alleviate the anguish that's setting in as he realises that justice is finally catching up with Trump
it's a shame really because it would be nice to debate with a brexiter who would stick to facts
My word there are some miserable bastards around. You know its not doing anyone any good all this masturbating each other into a pot of misery and then bathing in the ejaculate of despair. Lighten up, Brexit is going to be awesome. Luckily Dickyboy is back here to spread some Brexit cheer and get you all on the right track...
Lets start with multiculturalism, i thought this had been put to bed but clearly not. Some are still struggling with the difference between multiracialism, multiculturism and multicultural, so lets revisit my definition:
"Multiracialism is about acknowledging that we are all composed of people from various races or different cultural backgrounds. Multiracialism as an ideology is one where you seek to avoid the problems associated with multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream."
Cougar - is there anywhere in that sentence or any other sentence that I wrote that said I didn't like foreigners? Angela Merkel and David Cameron agree with me on this (i said it first) so I'm in bad company. Having a society that is multi cultural is something completely different and to be celebrated. As is multi racialism. Hopefully thats cleared that up but I doubt it..
Why do you hate democracy?
Cougar - Democracy is a beautiful thing. There has been a vote, the people voted to leave the EU and thats that. If the people voted remain would I still be banging on about another referendum? Actually yes I would. My only issue with the second referendum is that millions of pounds are being poured into persuading the people not only to have another vote but to persuade them to remain. That isn't a fair level playing field. Whats more gangsters like soros are behind it, you can bet he has some grubby little plan to profit from peoples misfortune. Anyone interested should read up about him, its a good but frightening read.
Got to go now but will be back to the other questions later..
Got to go now but will be back to the other questions later..
No you will just repeat the same pointless non answers to the questions while ducking the stuff you want to avoid while trying to repeat statement to try and make them stick.
But nice opening insult there, classy
“Lets say, as remainiacs love to call it, we ‘crashed out of the eu’ and operated on wto rules. The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion. Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.”
I would suggest the other £3bn is worth it to be a member of the organisation and retain influence within it. It's about 45 quid per head of population. Less than a quid a week. Not many clubs with such influence offer such cheap membership.
I thought you didn't want to talk anymore mikewsmith?
Happy to tackle any questions but I'm having trouble keeping track. If you want you can pick out the tricky ones and I'll answer them later.
Do you have a picture of JRM on your bedroom wall?
Democracy is a beautiful thing. There has been a vote, the people voted to leave the EU and thats that.
No, it's not. That's not how a democracy works.
Democracy doesn't just have a vote and then stop (otherwise the Whigs would still be in power). A parliamentary democracy votes for its representatives, it does not allow its electorate to mandate on individual policy, that would be an ochlocracy (ie, mob rule). A democracy doesn't attempt to silence those who disagree with them ("get over it princess"), that's fascism.
Whats more gangsters like soros are behind it
As opposed to pillars of the community like Aaron Banks and Paul Dacre (and, y'know, Putin, allegedly). Really, this isn't an argument you want to be raising, in a "which side has the biggest set of ****s behind it?" contest you're not going to come out of it well.
That isn’t a fair level playing field.
*cough*
So, given that the leave campaign broke the fair level playing field rules, I guess you have a problem with the original referendum result too then?
PS really not enjoying this baiting of dickens. Play the ball, not the man. Even if he is trolling, so what? Keep it nice. At least he's engaging properly (and politely) even if his arguments have holes.
Agreed. Play nicely please, people.
(It's not like it's a small ball.)
It is not possible to "play nicely" with someone willing to play "the Soros card"… they'll just infect the place. I'm out of here… before it gets nasty.
Random aside, re: WTO trading, I just tripped over this from a somewhat unlikely source.
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128
That's slightly inconvenient. I think I'll tweet it.
That's it then. We can't have a No Deal situation. The Leavers say so.
Friend posted something pro EU on face ache earlier
A pro brexit friend of his chimed in with some anti EU comments
A few of us challenged him on his points and backed up why his view was wrong with actual evidence and data. We repeatedly asked him for facts and data which he ignored.
He called us snowflakes and said he was refusing to comment anymore
🙄
Okay Kimbers, some answers to your questions:
switzerland are in schengen & EEA
Switzerland is not in the EEA. Schengen is about free movement of people not goods. The Swiss model is a valid one for the UK to look at. Why do you think it can't work?
so the brexit dividend gets ever smaller & ECJ is final arbiter for these agencies, so we will have to obey rules, no loger with UK judges on the court
Hopefully we can negotiate out of ECJ rules. Is that not what you want anyway?
yay sovereignity
Yep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.
planes- grounded? cite please
Planes won't be grounded, the UK has the third largest aviation industry which many countries benefit from. Sure the US could be a pain in the ass and try and restrict some of our private operators in favour of their own but its up to us to play hardball as well.
hows trumplandia these days?
I have never mentioned Trump once so no idea what you're on about.
Can I keep… bagels, sushi, curry, pizza, pasta, coffee, tea… please. And Christianity, please… I’m not religious, but I feel we have benefited from having the Christians come over here and live among us.
Kelvin - see post on Multiculturalism.
Yes, but it’s a definite border with checks and you get a chat from a border official when you cross it (or at least I did last time I drove through). Lots of people in Northern Ireland simply will not stand for this. Likewise, lots of other people won’t stand for a border in the Irish sea. It’s not a technological issue we’re facing with that, it’s a political and/or social one.
The technological possibility was raised not to police the border, but to control goods *without* having a border, so the situation is not like the Swiss one.
Molgrips - I was referring to our general borders which i do believe could be modelled on the swiss border. You mentioned Irish, I covered the irish border in another post, this is now the third time I have been asked the question and this is the second time I have pasted my answer:
"Heres wot i wrote: On the Irish border, there already is a border. Even if a more robust one was put in, I thinks there’s around 200 entry points. Its just not realistic to put a hard border in and its unacceptable to the North and the Republic. Technology can play a part. Realistically 99% of goods going over the border will be a fella filling his van up with whatever is cheaper over the border. For heavy goods that are far easier to track it shouldn’t be an issue.
I added later that Small business traffic moving goods could be permissible as part of the deal. Think of it like when you go to the tip in your car but commercial vehicles have to pay. An exception needs to be made because of the sensitive political situation in N Ireland."
No, we absolutely should trade with them, but perhaps we shouldn’t buy stuff from them of which they have a limited production capacity; they need in order to survive; and they are vulnerable to supply instability. If we were to say encourage some company to build a factory in an African country making high value goods, that helps them grow but does not risk their food supply.
Exactly the kind of thing, incidentally, that the EU does for the poorer countries within it.
Completely agree with the first and the second part. But there are still about a hundred other developing nations where we could get cheaper deals for goods, whilst trading responsibly and supporting their economies.
dickens… Actually…
’dick’
Nice contribution to the forum woppit. Thanks for letting us know that there are some bell ends in the remain camp as well as leave.
tbf i understand that being proved wrong on trump has upset you so ill cut you some slack
lol you proved yourself wrong...
Ah right. So, what, you acknowledge that different people exist, you just don’t like them?
Cougar - Sigh, here we go again, this is the definition of multiculturalism and multiracialism:
Multiracialism is about acknowledging that we are all composed of people from various races or different cultural backgrounds. Multiracialism as an ideology is one where you seek to avoid the problems associated with multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.
Or long term stability in Western Europe for the first time in hundreds of years.
I would argue that the EU creates instability. Many countries not in the EU including Russia and the US feel threatened by it. EU army proposals (no longer just talk) take this up a notch. China likes the EU because the euro threatens the dollar so this puts pressure on US China relations.
When EU countries have gone to war the EU has done nothing, said nothing. I'm not saying they should have said something but it damages their claim of being peace brokers.
The second world war ended a cycle of European conflict, i don't think European peace can be attributed to the eu.
Random aside, re: WTO trading, I just tripped over this from a somewhat unlikely source.
I've had a scan through it. I've seen contrasting information so I doubt some of the claims. But in any case I would prefer not to have the WTO option, my preference is out of the EU, a Canada style free trade deal with freedom on services and no irish border. I think its doable. Germany is spectacularly in the red from loaning Greece pots of money (and profiting from it if they ever get it all back) and needs our business (15% of all their cars). Many other EU nations will be adversely affected. Barny is under pressure to get a deal, he won't want to be the EU commissioner that caused the UK to 'crash out' as remainiacs like to call it. We have a strong hand we just need someone with the balls to play it.
.
Lots of words, not much deliverable and wishful thinking to solve the big issues. Lots of hope and plenty of faith though
Yep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.
So this is the current situation is it?
So this is the current situation is it?
slowoldman - No but the EU is moving inexorably towards it. Perhaps publicly it is being denied but that was the case with the EU army which is now a firm proposal.
Lots of words, not much deliverable and wishful thinking to solve the big issues. Lots of hope and plenty of faith though
mikewsmith - I think I deserve more credit than that but anyway, so much of Brexit is theory as its never been done before.
Yep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.
Oh, there's another tick on my Brexit Bingo card. The (unelected) European Commission is the equivalent of our (unelected) Civil Service. Both the EU and the UK are run by elected representatives.
It's quite possible to be British and European, you know. You're also potentially English, Scouse and an Earthling. These things aren't mutually exclusive you know.
You really have a hardon about Merkel don't you? You mention her in like every other post.
Planes won’t be grounded, the UK has the third largest aviation industry which many countries benefit from.
How does that mean we get to fly through other countries' airspace for free?
Multiracialism is about acknowledging that we are all composed of people from various races or different cultural backgrounds. Multiracialism as an ideology is one where you seek to avoid the problems associated with multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.
My apologies. You acknowledge that different people exist, you just don’t want them to live near you?
My apologies. You acknowledge that different people exist, you just don’t want them to live near you?
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I can think of a lot of people of my race and culture I would rather see the back of.</span>
so much of Brexit is theory as its never been done before.
Funny how that argument doesn't apply when the leavers accuse us of "project fear." Like when Mark Carney started printing money to stop the pound imploding post-referendum, so they conclude that remain were obviously lying about the risks.
mikewsmith – I think I deserve more credit than that but anyway, so much of Brexit is theory as its never been done before.
Did/Do you mark your own homework?
I think some people see this as the acceptable form of multiculturalism
I can think of a lot of people of my race and culture I would rather see the back of.
Oh, sure.
Going back a couple of pages to something Binners touched on: Anecdotally, I live in a ward with a considerably higher than average Asian population. The Asians are lovely, the only scumbags on my block are white.
It's quite funny .. The brexiters are still calling for a no deal/car crash scenario out of some sort of inflated sense of self importance if the comments in the mail and express are anything to go by.
It would almost be funny to see the entire county of Kent turned into a lorry park whilst food rots on board the trucks and supermarket shelves empty..
The 'no deal' scenario has never been on the table.
What ever happens the crazy brexiters are going to be very angry as they only have a choice of starving to death or being angry.
A pro brexit associate of mine came up with a good solution though.
In the event the shipping ports get grid locked, we can fly food and goods in by air freight .. Yes seriously that was his solution.
The ‘no deal’ scenario has never been on the table.
Au contraire.
The only things that have ever been on the table for any practical purposes are "stay in the EU" and "crash out." Anything else has always been cake and unicorns.
In the event the shipping ports get grid locked, we can fly food and goods in by air freight .. Yes seriously that was his solution.
Got to admire those go getters, bet they were the types who kept Berlin going during the blockade or maybe they own an airfreight company and want to cash in
Switzerland is not in the EEA. Schengen is about free movement of people not goods. The Swiss model is a valid one for the UK to look at. Why do you think it can’t work?#
Sorry youre correct there but they are in the Single Market is that what you are suggesting we do? thats a red line & means giving up sovereignity to some evil dominant germans or unelected comissioners or some such twaddle
again you mention usisng swiss border as a model.... see schengen
just the usual brexiter contradictions & BS, you also still reckon its 'indisputible' that food will be cheaper under WTO?
Still waiting for an answer on why it is wrong to not want to live in a multicultural society
Sigh. I’ll bite... it’s wrong because
99.9% of the fears are unfounded
most of those fears are driven by the media rather than actual real life experiences
living in a multi cultural area has no tangible negative impact on your life (as someone who lives in a hugely multicultural area)
those who dislike those of different cultures are typically so insular that they have no idea what those other cultures around them actually involve
in reality, dislike of multiculturalism is simply a dislike of brown/yellow/whatever people. It’s purely skin colour driven. For example, I have a friend who one night who announced he hated “****s”. When pressed, this hatred extended to pretty much everyone of Indian sub-continent origin, not just those from ****stan, and when pressed further he admitted he actually never meets or interacts with anyone from the Indian subcontinent because he lives in a small Scottish village that’s exclusively white
ive yet to hear a single convincing argument from anyone who lives in a truly multicultural area about how that multiculturalism has made their life worse
I really dont know how you lot can be arsed to respond to dickens (a play on Dickensian aspiration for the workhouse?)
Like every single brexiteer i have personally interacted with it is always the same bollocks...
They have no answers, no plan, no idea and couldnt export a sandwich to a starving man.
I am sick of the absolute shite spewed by people who dont even know what WTO stands for let alone how tariffs actually work.
Cheaper food? Maybe if you fancy chlorine chicken or grain fed beef? Cheaper lamb/fish well that will * up farming and fishing.cheaper veg possibly at the expense if uk business and agriculture.
A US trade deal hell yes says Donald but you Will have to take our agricultural products.
But wait the German car industry will * its pants eer no they have already sussed that your average uk "pretend exec" will pay 50 quid a month more on a PCP deal for that shiny bmwaudimerc, because we are a shallow bunch of **
The EU supplies us with a whole range of goods that we do not produce or have limited capabilty including Pharma equipment, robot milking machines, bacon, machine tools, tractors etc etc etc we dont have a *ing choice you stupid * the EU on the other hand actually do.
The stupidity is breathtakingly impressive.
Oh and Liam Fox continues to raise the stupid bar, Chris Grayling gets "blanker" by the day, Rabb looks like he has shit his pants each time he stands next to Barnier, Farage makes Boris look honest and Steve Bannon needs to * off home to 1950s Alabama. Arron Banks needs locking up and Corbyn needs to get a grip.
The above do not seem to have two ounces (56.69 grams) of shit for brains between them.
Just how did we arrive here?
They have no answers
100%
ive yet to hear them ever give any answer, never mind a credible answer, when asked to give one real example about how the EU has made their life worse. They simply can’t do it. It’s just platitudes and buzzwords about control etc.
Just how did we arrive here?
The will of the people.
A combination of: (arguably justified) dissatisfaction with the government's reluctance to apply available immigration controls that most of the rest of Europe do; dissatisfaction with the government generally (most of which was scapegoated as the EU's fault); a rose-tinted memory of a fictitious England's (sic) past; a belief in the propaganda spun by the leave campaigns such as the NHS bus; and most of all the manipulation of the populace by a relatively small number of rich people who stand to gain vastly from us leaving.
The will of the people.
A combination of: (arguably justified) dissatisfaction with the government’s reluctance to apply available immigration controls that most of the rest of Europe do; dissatisfaction with the government generally (most of which was scapegoated as the EU’s fault); a rose-tinted memory of a fictitious England’s (sic) past; a belief in the propaganda spun by the leave campaigns such as the NHS bus; and most of all the manipulation of the populace by a relatively small number of rich people who stand to gain vastly from us leaving
The the impact of austerity is the huge driver for me. Easy to pin the blame on reduced acces to services on immigrants rather than actual cutbacks driven by austerity measures.
The will of the people.
We also have to ask how Cameron got it so wrong. I get why he called the vote, but politicians don’t tend to call for votes they actually think they’ll lose. How the hell did he misjudge it so badly. Would be interested to see pre campaigning polls vs the actual result
Yep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.
Well perhaps if the MEPs that the British voted to represent them turned up and had them balls to lead rather than bitch and moan then the dominant voice would be theirs.
its s but like not turning up to football practice and then screaming and crying because you are not selected for the team.
maybe they own an airfreight company
They don't own an air freight company, far from it.. belive me ROFL!!
Cameron got it so wrong
Cameron was scared of dilution of the tory electorate . The perceived fear of loosing a few votes to UKIP could have meant Labour got strong enough to threaten the tory majority. He was simply putting his party before the good of the country.
Looking back his effort was utterly fruitless, to put it politely..
Sigh. I’ll bite… it’s wrong because
99.9% of the fears are unfounded
There you go, already dismissing them as fears, unfounded, racist etc,. Just because you think people should live in a multicultural society you instantly give a whole load of reasons why someone that doesn't is wrong.
What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don't want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?
This is one of many Brexiter's problems with people telling them what they should feel and you can see why...
Cameron was scared of dilution of the tory electorate . The perceived fear of loosing a few votes to UKIP could have meant Labour got strong enough to threaten the tory majority. He was simply putting his party before the good of the country.
Looking back his effort was utterly fruitless, to put it politely..
Agree but what we don't know is how it would have turned out. What if the electorate got more and more into UKIP and they did end up winning 50 seats. That crazy terrorist sympathiser communist Corbyn gets in and we end up in what would be hell to the tories. Is that hell any better than Brexit hell?
What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?
Then frankly tough shit, move to somewhere remote as the world.is changing. It's going to happen forcing it not too so that you can hide from it is a little bit sad and a lot like the beginnings of some really nasty conflicts.
Corbyn will probably win the next GE anyway and i will take a slightly deranged left winger over brexit as i could move to another country ( in the EU) if i choose, but now we dont have an option.
This removal of options (choices) that brexit imposes on ordinary people and make no mistake they are significant creates a no win situation.
So Cameron's fear for the Tory party of a declining vote and loss of power to Labour has now become inevitable due to brexit as it will creatr exactly the conditions that a left wing gov. Can win power.
Rees Mogg has just said he does not want leave uk members to join the Tory party (entryism) to suppor him in a leadeship race - this is because he knows he can not win a GE with an electorate that is pissed off with Brexit and its impact.
Corbyn is many things but not stupid, he has let the gov. destroy itself but like JRM he does not want to fight a GE until thr post brexit misery has unfolded.
There is huge political advantage for the left in a hard brexit - bring me your poor snd huddled mssses and all that.
What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?
Because those reasons are unfounded - I'm sorry, but they are. Over the last two years, the amount of anti-Muslim invective I've seen on FB posts has become horrendous - I follow West Mids Police, and there is a very clear division of reactions on their posts according to the colour of a suspect's skin, the purely hateful nature of some of the responses is breathtaking. "Send him home!" "Hang him!" "Cut his head off!" "Put him up against the wall and blow his brains out!" (seriously), and increasingly there's talk of no-go areas - but I tell you what, no-one can tell me where they are, because it's just media-driven bullshit. I work all over Birmingham, and I can tell you without fear of contradiction that my welcome will be warmer in multiculural areas than it will be in, I dunno, whatever you misguidedly think of as "English" areas. We as a nation are cultural slags - multiculturalism is spread throughout our lives already, we've borrowed and stolen language, food, tradition, even people for centuries. So I don't know what utopian, monocultural pipedream you're after, but it doesn't exist and never has.
ive yet to hear them ever give any answer, never mind a credible answer, when asked to give one real example about how the EU has made their life worse.
Totally agree. I never (knowingly) had many Leave friends, but not one of them will debate it any more. The question I have asked over and over has been "what are you looking forward to most about leaving", and none of them has ever given me a reply.
Then frankly tough shit, move to somewhere remote as the <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">world.is</span> changing.
Nice. You know you are sounding like a Brexiter there, tough shit you lost the vote, why not move to somewhere else if you don't like Brexit Britain.
Same stance with the country/world become more right wing - tough shit move to a left wing country the world is changing
You are all failing to see things from others viewpoint and again this is one of the main causes for greater division and ultimately the protest vote side of Brexit.
Corbyn is many things but not stupid, he has let the gov. destroy itself but like JRM he does not want to fight a GE until thr post brexit misery has unfolded.
And there you have our current political system in a nutshell. Both sides seek power at all cost, even if it's to the detriment of the country as a whole.
You are all failing to see things from others viewpoint and again this is one of the main causes for greater division and ultimately the protest vote side of Brexit.
Or accepting that the world is changing, if you want to stop it try walking down to the coast and stopping the tide coming in. When you got that sorted...
Heard this morning that the ‘government’ are issuing ‘guidelines’ for ‘citizens’ and businesses on how to cope with the situation if the U.K. crashes out with no deal.
Those old enough will remember the last time the government issued guidelines in the event of an emergency was when everybody was worried about nuclear war back in the 1980’s.
As I remember, the advice was more or less to get in a supply of chocolate and hide in the cupboard under the stairs...
No worries. It’s all under control.
What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?
One of the biggest problems in the next 20 years or so will be inequality. Millions of Africans and Indians have realised that the whities have got the all the money and power. We face a choice here in the Western post industrial nations; give a considerable cut of our wealth to them or accept that they will come here, and make provison for them.
I get that people don't like change, but frankly we've one planet, this is the future.
Heard this morning that the ‘government’ are issuing ‘guidelines’ for ‘citizens’ and businesses on how to cope with the situation if the U.K. crashes out with no deal.
Should be a good read.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45274972
So I don’t know what utopian, monocultural pipedream you’re after, but it doesn’t exist and never has.
Its the one between the 3rd September 1945 and the 28th October 1956 although in reality it didn’t really exist but that’s not important.
What if they are happy with the culture where they live and don’t want it to be different and what if there are a LOT of people who feel that?
I'm sure a lot of South Africans felt exactly that.
You mentioned Irish, I covered the irish border in another post, this is now the third time I have been asked the question and this is the second time I have pasted my answer:
That's not really an answer, I'm afraid. There's no solution in what you said. Ok, so it's not your job to come up with one, I understand that - but the issue is you seem to be trusting the people whose job it is when they have not done anything to suggest they deserve our trust.
I suspect you simply WANT to believe them, because you are pro-Brexit in the first place. You are exhibiting confirmation bias.
Yep, I would rather be British than be part of a European superstate run by unelected commissioners and be dictated to by a dominant German voice.
Ok, I'm going to have to call you up on this because we're getting to the heart of the issue. Dickens, please give specific answers.
1) What's wrong with Germans and why can't they be involved in our lives?
2) What's the difference between you having to do what a German wants (if that even happens) and a Scottish person having to do what an English person wants (this definitely happens)?
3) The EU is not undemocratic. This is spin, put out by leavers. You have democratic representation in the EU just like you do in Westminster. You have an unelected civil service just like the EU does. You also have an unelected second chamber, which the EU does not have. So the EU is in fact more democratic than the UK.