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I said that it is indisputable that we can set our own tarriffs.
which is a lie, MFN rules & objections from other WTO member prevent this
also culture is dynamic
youre not very good at this................. are you Liam Fox?
I imagine what you man by that is Johnny Foreigner can move in here but can’t continue to perform any of those “strange” beliefs and practices. They must become more British than St. George. Oh hang on…
slowoldman - here's what Merkel has to say on the subject:
"Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies and therefore remains a ‘life lie,’ ” or a sham, she said
"Of course the tendency had been to say, 'Let's adopt the multicultural concept and live happily side by side, and be happy to be living with each other.' But this concept has failed, and failed utterly," she said in 2010.
Who decides what a small business is ? Or personal use ?
As an eu citizen, can I go through the irish border without being checked ?
I also said that food outside the eu is cheaper.
Of course it can be cheaper, lower standards of animal welfare, dubious animal feed and in the case of grain, fruit and vegetables, questionable and sometimes illegal (in the EU) pesticides and fertiliser .. All of which are detrimental to public health and not consistent with long term environmental strategies..
Quality standards are not there for the fun of it, or to keep costs down, they are there for long term benefit and sustainability.. American chickens live and are prepared in such squalor the meat has to be bleached to kill all the bacteria for gods sake .. Wake up..
As an eu citizen, can I go through the irish border without being checked ?
What's wrong with being checked?
I get checked all over the world even travelling back to my own country.
I even get "interrogated" at Newcastle Int'l Airport ...
kimbers - they specify the maximum levels we can charge so fair enough you got me BUT we will still be fully free to charge lower levels of tariffs, or zero tariffs if it suits us.
Night night doom mongers, will check back here tomorrow!
kimbers – they specify the maximum levels we can charge so fair enough you got me BUT we will still be fully free to charge lower levels of tariffs, or zero tariffs if it suits us.
still dont understand MFN then
Multiculturalism leads to parallel societies and therefore remains a ‘life lie,’
I dont celebrate birthdays and my family don’t go out to see other people at Christmas. Everyone else I know does the opposite... does this mean I am part of a separate society?
who defines the “norm” that we should be confirming to?
I get checked all over the world even travelling back to my own country.
I can't imagine why.
We shall go back for poor new/old Dickens
Name me 3 countries on WTO only
Take the case of the Swiss immigration official that said no to the lady that wouldn’t shake his hand, seems fair enough to me, maybe a bit extreme though. But Burkas need to go, there’s no place for them in a civilised society.
If your going to quote stuff at least try and get the right country
Though all those places that begin with S sound the same....
Is there a place for men wearing dresses talking to imaginary friends in old stone buildings while sitting in the house of lords??
they specify the maximum levels we can charge so fair enough you got me BUT we will still be fully free to charge lower levels of tariffs, or zero tariffs if it suits us.
My my understanding of the wto tariffs is these are agreed for the hundreds of thousands of goods by 164 member countries. If we then choose to import beef from Australia below the tariff we can be called into a disputed by any of the 163 other countries for breaking the agreement.
once agreed we have to renegotiate with the entire WTO to change or agree specific trade agreements with individual countries. We cannot just do whatever we choose.
An example thrown up a few pages back detailed that the WTO section for metal covers 4000 odd types and the steel sub section has 3000 odd alloy designations. Obviously we want to protect what we make but also not make imports of other raw mats expensive. Trouble is so does India and China but they also want immigration deals...
the masterclass of dealing with the eu does not inspire confidence
Northwind – I think the issue on multiculturalism (and again this isn’t a big issue for me, I voted leave for other reasons) is of different cultures coming to your towns and cities and not integrating with a progressive creep towards transforming areas. For many people these are serious issues
So again the question, when did this stop being OK? 1973?
and to say the more multicultural places I have lived have been the best. If you don't get that then get out and mix with other people.
and to say the more multicultural places I have lived have been the best. If you don’t get that then get out and mix with other people.
This....
sadly either you are open to multiculturalism or not... it also goes back to the old school days of the colonies where people used to go abroad to work (for government, armed forces or private folirms) and brought back new culture....
I can’t imagine why.
Routine check really for non-EU people ... 😀
sadly either you are open to multiculturalism or not
True, and I think there are a LOT of people who are not open to it and it is a primary cause behind the Brexit result.
Are those people wrong, should they be forced to think multi-culturism is great when living with it everyday they don't see it as great.
Makes you think.
Are those people wrong, should they be forced to think multi-culturism is great when living with it everyday they don’t see it as great.
Did those voting out live it everyday or read about it in the mail?
I think dickens said “Before we joined the EEC we had cheaper food but we ended up with higher prices thanks to the EU.”
Now I’m doing this from memory so someone may need to check this, but the percentage of the average household’s take home pay spent on food has dropped significantly.
Googling it the Independent has 33% in 1957 and 15% in 2006.
I also said that food outside the eu is cheaper
It's not cheaper in the US, from my experience.
Anyway. Isn't the WTO undemocratic?
Re multiculturalism: it fits in with what seems to be a common British principle, and what should be a basic human principle, which is to let other people do whatever they want in their own homes as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
So you should be able to speak whatever language, wear whatever clothes and watch whatever TV you like. It's noone else's business, is it?
Re multiculturalism: it fits in with what seems to be a common British principle, and what should be a basic human principle, which is to let other people do whatever they want in their own homes as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone.
and your white, western European christian
It's similar in the US
Multiculturalism - try telling the Cornish they have the same culture as Cockneys. Or the Scots. Or Welsh...
The UK (clue’s in the name) has been a wonderful multicultural mongrel nation for centuries. We are in many ways the perfect Europeans. We understand how to be part of something greater than the sum of its parts.
And we happily assimilate all the best bits of culture we come into contact with. Food, music, language - you name it.
Too much power concentrated at Westminster probably hasn’t helped over the last 70 years or so, but devolution and the EU have provided two outlets to curb London centrisicity. And the Beeb starting to leave London too.
Multiculturalism is our strength and those who oppose it weaken the UK.
I also said that food outside the eu is cheaper
My time spent in Australia over Christmas and new year would suggest otherwise.
Did those voting out live it everyday or read about it in the mail?
I don't know, do you? Lets for the sake of argument say they are living with multiculturism everyday and they don't like it. Are they wrong?
Lets for the sake of argument say they are living with multiculturism everyday and they don’t like it. Are they wrong?
Possibly - it depends why they don't like it.
When I hear people being loud and obnoxious in a foreign language, sometimes a part of my brain pipes up and says 'bloody foreigners!' But then I remind myself that the reason I'm annoyed with them is because they are loud and obnoxious, not because they are foreign. So the bloody foreigners thought is just wrong.
People ascribe traits to entire groups to which they don't belong on the basis of some behaviour they see. So for example, you see some travellers fly tipping, people think 'bloody travellers'. When you see settled people committing a crime, they don't think 'bloody settled people'. This is also wrong behaviour. It's logically incorrect, if nothing else.
I don’t know, do you? Lets for the sake of argument say they are living with multiculturism everyday and they don’t like it. Are they wrong?
There was data that showed leave and fear of immigrants/other cultures was particularly strong in areas with tiny % of non white UK born & bread so yeah we do know a bit about that.
If people don't like it they can hold that view, if they chose to run away and hide from it then they are part of the problem.
I don’t see that as being racist and presumably neither does angela merkel. Maybe you’re confusing multiculturalism with multiracial (which I like).
Would you care to explain the difference, please?
Cougar - Multiracialism is about acknowledging that we are all composed of people from various races or different cultural backgrounds. Multiracialism as an ideology is one where you seek to avoid the problems associated with multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.
Shouldn’t we have a referendum on whether or not we join the WTO – an unelected body over which we have no control?
scotroutes - the nation voted to leave the EU. By default that means we are in the WTO, there are no other realistic choices. The vote has taken place, get over it princess.
I dont celebrate birthdays and my family don’t go out to see other people at Christmas. Everyone else I know does the opposite… does this mean I am part of a separate society?
who defines the “norm” that we should be confirming to?
cornholio - fair question if a little basic. Normal is a word with its own definition and everything (usual, typical or expected). Hence the majority decides whats normal. If you don't conform to normal then maybe you should be stoned to death... okay I'm joking but I think riding a bamboo fat bike with drop bars and bent cranks isn't going to cause any social problems.
If your going to quote stuff at least try and get the right country
Though all those places that begin with S sound the same….
Is there a place for men wearing dresses talking to imaginary friends in old stone buildings while sitting in the house of lords??
mikewsmith - you got me, it was sweden that like their handshakes not switzerland. Clearly that now undermines everything I've said. Personally I'd like to abolish the house of lords but that's a whole separate debate.
My my understanding of the wto tariffs is these are agreed for the hundreds of thousands of goods by 164 member countries. If we then choose to import beef from Australia below the tariff we can be called into a disputed by any of the 163 other countries for breaking the agreement.
once agreed we have to renegotiate with the entire WTO to change or agree specific trade agreements with individual countries. We cannot just do whatever we choose.
An example thrown up a few pages back detailed that the WTO section for metal covers 4000 odd types and the steel sub section has 3000 odd alloy designations. Obviously we want to protect what we make but also not make imports of other raw mats expensive. Trouble is so does India and China but they also want immigration deals…
Cornholio - my understanding is we set import tariffs to whatever we want subject to maximum limits (not minimum). There's no dispute (well ok there maybe a dispute but no legal grounds for one) , if they don't like it they can take a running jump. See here: https://lawyersforbritain.org/leaving-the-eu-on-wto-terms-pulling-down-the-barriers-to-world-trade
So again the question, when did this stop being OK? 1973?
Northwin - snore. It might be ok for you and if it is I'm very happy for you. If you live in some areas of Blackburn or whalley range in Manchester for example where 95% of residents are asian you might feel differently. Perhaps if your neighbours believed in stoning people to death for adultery then that would be fine too?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYWmTVWXHv8
and to say the more multicultural places I have lived have been the best. If you don’t get that then get out and mix with other people.
mikewsmith and molgrips and igm - same reply to you above.
When I hear people being loud and obnoxious in a foreign language, sometimes a part of my brain pipes up and says ‘bloody foreigners!’ But then I remind myself that the reason I’m annoyed with them is because they are loud and obnoxious, not because they are foreign. So the bloody foreigners thought is just wrong.
molgrips - If you think the problems with multiculturalism is just about foreigners talking loud you really need to do some research.
I suspect that our new Leaver is yet another alter ego of the same person.
We shall christen that person by putting all his user names together.
Dickfanchewmore.
It might be ok for you and if it is I’m very happy for you. If you live in some areas of Blackburn or whalley range in Manchester for example where 95% of residents are asian you might feel differently..
Manchester is frequently held up as a beacon of how multiculturism can work and has been leading the way for a very long time due to it's role in industry and shipping.
Still not told us which countries currently operate on WTO only though, I can think of another poster who has gone quiet that struggled with that uncomfortable fact.
zippykona unfortunately I can't change my username but if I could then that would be it thanks.
mikewsmith - I don't know how many countries operate on wto only. I would like us to have many advantageous trade deals around the world but sadly we need to release ourselves from the grips of the EU mafia before that can happen.
molgrips – If you think the problems with multiculturalism is just about foreigners talking loud you really need to do some research.
No I was giving an example, not describing the entire issue in a single post. That should have been obvious?
multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.
I don't think that's what most people think of when they use that word.
I would like us to have many advantageous trade deals around the world
Why, exactly? I feel like the answer to this will bring up an important point.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41859691
<h2>Does any other country trade on WTO rules alone?</h2>
If you look at the WTO database which lists all regional trade agreements, there is nothing for Mauritania. That's led some to suggest Mauritania is the only member to trade solely on WTO rules.However, according to the WTO, Mauritania has joined the Economic Community of West African States, and it has preferential trade arrangements with some 20 WTO members.
There are some countries which aren't WTO members, including Algeria, Serbia and North Korea, but the WTO says all of its members have some sort of bilateral or regional trade agreement in place.
I would like us to have many advantageous trade deals around the world but sadly we need to release ourselves from the grips of the EU mafia before that can happen.
This is the starting point you are advocating.
The EU Mafia as you describe it is one of the most powerful trading blocks in the world, that allows the members to get better collective deals with fewer concessions than smaller nations. Being smaller does not really help.
molgrips - fair enough on the talking loud, it was obvious.
If most people don't think of that definition then I would argue they don't understand the meaning of the word. That doesn't mean the word should change its definition because people haven't bothered to read a dictionary.
Happy to be led into your cunning trap... Surely that's the whole point of world trade, to do business on the world stage and strike the best possible deals?
It might be ok for you and if it is I’m very happy for you. If you live in some areas of Blackburn or whalley range in Manchester for example where 95% of residents are asian you might feel differently..
I lived in Whalley Range for years. On a street where I think we were the only 'white' people. I loved it. Never any mither. Everyone was really friendly. There was a real feel of a community about it - kids playing in the street etc. What was I meant to be objecting too?
It's always the same from my observation. The people who start sentences with "I'm not racist, but..." usually live in areas with no immigrants and the only ones they encounter are the eastern Europeans serving their coffees and cleaning their cars. Yet they're more than happy to give you chapter and verse about the problems of multiculturalism
This is the starting point you are advocating.
The EU Mafia as you describe it is one of the most powerful trading blocks in the world, that allows the members to get better collective deals with fewer concessions than smaller nations. Being smaller does not really help.
mikewsmith - we are not mauritania by any stretch of imagination. Lets say, as remainiacs love to call it, we 'crashed out of the eu' and operated on wto rules. The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion. Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.
The EU mafia surely is a powerful trading block and protectionist racket. Sadly most of its protectionist policies don't really benefit the UK as a net importer. We are better placed to to survive outside the EU than Germany for example who I believe benefits the most out of eu membership.
I genuinely believe that long term we will be considerably better off outside of the EU.
Surely that’s the whole point of world trade, to do business on the world stage and strike the best possible deals?
Obviously, starting from a weaker point is the best way to do this....Moving to a position of no trade agreements at all in place is the best first negotiation step I've seen since Blackadder
If people don’t like it they can hold that view
And if 52% of people don't like it they can vote based on that view?. You don't have to live in a multicultural town/city to not like it.
Ever thought that people live in places that are not very multicultural because they don't want to live in multicultural place and don't want "their" place to change to be one.
Again, are they wrong in feeling that?
Again, are they wrong in feeling that?
Probably.
The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion. Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.
How much would that push up the prices of good arriving in the UK? they are just a tax like VAT that the people of the UK will pay, so we need to find 5bn from our pockets.
The EU mafia surely is a powerful trading block and protectionist racket. Sadly most of its protectionist policies don’t really benefit the UK as a net importer.
Details needed here, how is the UK being disadvantaged, lets have some specifics here
Happy to be led into your cunning trap… Surely that’s the whole point of world trade, to do business on the world stage and strike the best possible deals?
Best in what way? I assume you mean cheapest? The problem with everyone aiming for the cheapest possible deal is that other issues get overlooked. Money is not the only issue. Look at NAFTA. Now you'll probably say that if free trade is bad, then why the EU? But the EU also manages (or attempts to manage) *production* across the whole area for a variety of benefits, not just commercial. This is why the EU is not just a free trade area.
Probably.
Why?
Obviously, starting from a weaker point is the best way to do this….Moving to a position of no trade agreements at all in place is the best first negotiation step I’ve seen since Blackadder
mikewsmith - not sure I follow you? How would it be possible to leave the EU with deals in place?
How much would that push up the prices of good arriving in the UK? they are just a tax like VAT that the people of the UK will pay, so we need to find 5bn from our pockets.
As stated several pages back, we can set our own import tariffs. We needn't pay more for food, we could set zero tariffs. Generally speaking food is cheaper outside the EU than in it giving further savings.
I also think there is an ethical gain to be made here, buying food products from impoverished nations. Take oranges for example, spain produces most of the EU's oranges so the EU has slapped a 16% tariff on oranges bought outside the EU. We could be buying more oranges from south africa for example, a nation that badly needs our help right now as it is on the verge of imploding into a zimbabwe style catastrophe.
Best in what way? I assume you mean cheapest? The problem with everyone aiming for the cheapest possible deal is that other issues get overlooked. Money is not the only issue. Look at NAFTA. Now you’ll probably say that if free trade is bad, then why the EU? But the EU also manages (or attempts to manage) production *across* the whole area for a variety of benefits, not just commercial. This is why the EU is not just a free trade area.
molgrips - I've kind of answered your post above. By 2050 more than half of the worlds population will be in Africa. There will be famines in the future that will make past ones look trivial in scale. The EU in many cases prevents us from trading with these countries.
The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion. Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.
How much of that 8bn is returned to the UK in the form of subsidies, rebates, grants etc.
How much of that 8bn is returned to the UK in the form of subsidies, rebates, grants etc.
None at all that is the NET amount we pay.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/
mikewsmith – not sure I follow you? How would it be possible to leave the EU with deals in place?
Yes we can't have any when we start fresh so we have no trade deals.
As stated several pages back, we can set our own import tariffs. We needn’t pay more for food, we could set zero tariffs. Generally speaking food is cheaper outside the EU than in it giving further savings.
Is it actually cheaper when you get it here or are you just repeating without facts. You want to raise money but not make people pay for it? You want/claim 5bn will be raised, 5bn will have to be paid.
How long does it take to negotiate trade deals?
What will you do about UK citizens in the EU?
How will you plug nursing vacancies?
How will you deal with EU citizens already here?
What is the viable solution for the Irish border?
Details needed here, how is the UK being disadvantaged, lets have some specifics here
Again how is the UK specifically being disadvantaged?
By 2050 more than half of the worlds population will be in Africa. There will be famines in the future that will make past ones look trivial in scale. The EU in many cases prevents us from trading with these countries.
? This statement makes absolutely no sense...
Details needed here, how is the UK being disadvantaged, lets have some specifics here
mikewsmith - I was speaking generally rather than specifically. The EU protectionist tariffs like I mentioned above (the example of oranges) favour those that export by putting higher tarriffs on products produced outside the EU. I didn't say we would be disadvantaged, what I said was other countries that produce more, benefit more than a country like ours which has a trade deficit. Ours is a strong position to have although I don't subscribe to some peoples view that this in any way gives us an upper hand in negotiations. It does give us a strong hand though.
Generally speaking food is cheaper outside the EU than in it giving further savings.
But the EU contains lots of the countries with the highest costs of living, so I think that particular statistic is not valid if you are trying to say that the EU is actually causing higher food prices.
Dickens is trying to say that we should buy food from say African countries to grow their economies so they don't suffer as their populations increase. However I'd suggest it's not as simple as that - if we buy all their food then they won't be able to feed this increasing population. Our money will push up the prices. AFAIK this is generally what happens. Food should not be treated as a freely tradeable commodity for this reason.
What we should be doing is investing in Africa and other developing nations to develop their economies, not simply monopolising their food market. The fair trade movement was created for a reason.
What will be the effect if we set zero import tariffs? Can countries not suddenly decide to set export tariffs if they decide their own citizens need the food, thereby leaving us in the lurch? I think international trade is a bit more complex than you realise.
And we haven't even talked about food miles yet. Does it make more sense to get oranges from Spain or South Africa?
Also on environmental lines, by encouraging a country to grow food for cash that might not be suitable, you could end up creating environmental issues. For example, say someone discovers you can grow oranges to export to rich countries in some hot poor country by using intensive irrigation with water taken from rivers - ten years later you have a water crisis.
Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal.
How much of that £8bn goes to running admin that we will now have to run ourselves?
? This statement makes absolutely no sense…
jimster - which bit makes no sense? Do you not see how trade can benefit developing countries?
Seems to be lots of magical thinking going on.
If we could move seamlessly to WTO, and its a big if, then there are still lots of unanswered questions:
What's your solution for a customs border? (not N. Ireland that's a separate issue) will Kent just be turned into a lorry park?
If we put zero tariffs on food whats to stop our entire farming industry from being undercut?
EU Agencies such as Euratom, Europol, EMA, EASA, etc. Which do fairly important stuff, like keep planes in the sky, co-ordinate police to fight international criminals and ensure availability of medicines, whats the plan for replacing those? I would imagine its more than an afternoon's work to get them set up.
Not expecting any answers soon.
Cougar – Multiracialism is about acknowledging that we are all composed of people from various races or different cultural backgrounds. Multiracialism as an ideology is one where you seek to avoid the problems associated with multiculturalism which is where different cultures live close together but live separate lives, apart from each other and apart form the mainstream.
Laudable stuff.
So, keeping it simple - just so I can keep up, see? Multiculturalism as defined above is a kind of self-inflicted apartheid? Which is a bad thing as insular attitudes can build up in groups of people who are in close proximity.
How is Brexit specifically going to lead to less of this multiculturalism (as defined by your good self above)?
Yes we can’t have any when we start fresh so we have no trade deals.
mike w smith - well thats the unfortunate situation we are in. It would have been nice to line up trade deals whilst in the EU but EU law forbids it. Its no reason to stay with an abusive partner just because there's a period of upheaval.
Is it actually cheaper when you get it here or are you just repeating without facts. You want to raise money but not make people pay for it? You want/claim 5bn will be raised, 5bn will have to be paid.
I think I've been pretty clear. I stated that I believe food will actually be cheaper because we can set zero tariffs on imported food if we wish and as an added bonus food is generally cheaper outside the EU. I only mentioned the £5 billion once and this is what i said: "Lets say, as remainiacs love to call it, we ‘crashed out of the eu’ and operated on wto rules. The cost of tariffs for continuing to trade with the EU at current levels would amount to just over £5 billion. Quite a lot but when you put it in the context that we pay £8 billion to be in the eu boys club its not such a big deal." I meant to actually say 'import' tariffs so if that was the confusion my apologees.
How long does it take to negotiate trade deals?
It takes time, years although I think with a strong will they can be wrapped up quickly. The exception is the EU deal could be done in 7 months I believe. However what I've tried to demonstrate above with the £5 billion tariffs which our EU neighbours would have to pay on our exports, its not a huge big deal. And part of the £8 billion we will save on membership can be put towards indirectly subsidising those industries, such as the car export industry for example (directly subsiding would be against wto rules).
What will you do about UK citizens in the EU?
How will you plug nursing vacancies?
How will you deal with EU citizens already here?
What is the viable solution for the Irish border?
Its nice that you think these are my decisions to make, if only... I don't have time for detail as I need to get some work done so I'll nutshell it:
UK citizens in the EU should have the same rights as we have granted EU citizens in the UK. Refer to the recent statement from Raab.
I don't have a problem with immigration to plug skills shortages. I personally think an australian style points system is appropriate. What I do have a problem with is low skilled mass immigration which are a burden to the treasury rather than a gain and it It lowers low skilled wages and pushes up wages for the fat cats. . As an aside I am interested to know why we can't develop more doctors and nurses in this country.
EU citizens has already been covered by Raab which I agree with.
I've covered the Irish border already on here. Heres wot i wrote: On the Irish border, there already is a border. Even if a more robust one was put in, I thinks there’s around 200 entry points. Its just not realistic to put a hard border in and its unacceptable to the North and the Republic. Technology can play a part. Realistically 99% of goods going over the border will be a fella filling his van up with whatever is cheaper over the border. For heavy goods that are far easier to track it shouldn’t be an issue.
I added later that Small business traffic moving goods could be permissible as part of the deal. Think of it like when you go to the tip in your car but commercial vehicles have to pay. An exception needs to be made because of the sensitive political situation in N Ireland.
If we put zero tariffs on food whats to stop our entire farming industry from being undercut?
Well that's easy, just put zero tariffs on stuff we can't grow ourselves, and big tariffs on stuff we can. Although I don't know how that works with out of season things like strawberries in December and so on. Can tariffs be seasonal?
However what I’ve tried to demonstrate above with the £5 billion tariffs which our EU neighbours would have to pay on our exports
But the EU customers can shop elsewhere...
Great long response, still doesn't sort the border though.
We are still at the stage where a deal needs to be put to the people otherwise you could be getting none of what you wanted.
jimster – which bit makes no sense? Do you not see how trade can benefit developing countries?
Unfortunately we are walking away from the biggest single trade market with the hope of setting up trade deals with developing countries. America changes their mind when Trump changes his socks, the only probable ones listed on the International Trade website are Australia and New Zealand who have already stated they would rather set a deal up with the EU.
As Richmtb states there are the EU Agencies to be replaced.
Has any Brexiteer ever read Article 50? There is no deal to be set, we leave.
How is Brexit specifically going to lead to less of this multiculturalism (as defined by your good self above)?
he couldnt answer this question as ninfan, he cant answer it as dickens
hes already reinforced that he has no clue how the WTO works, there will just be more obfuscation & trolling (he admitted that was his own primary win from Brexit)
hes only gone all brexit crazy to distract (himself) from his KKK loving hero in the whitehouse is indisuputably going down
But the EU customers can shop elsewhere…
molgrips - They could and they would be mad not to. I did make a point on how we could address this: "part of the £8 billion we will save on membership can be put towards indirectly subsidising those industries, such as the car export industry for example (directly subsiding would be against wto rules)."
“part of the £8 billion we will save on membership can be put towards indirectly subsidising those industries, such as the car export industry for example (directly subsiding would be against wto rules).”
Thought that was destined for the NHS
he couldnt answer this question as ninfan, he cant answer it as dickens
I admit the multiculturalism debate has little to do with brexit and was me being mischievous (-:
hes already reinforced that he has no clue how the WTO works, there will just be more obfuscation & trolling (he admitted that was his own primary win from Brexit)
hes only gone all brexit crazy to distract (himself) from his KKK loving hero in the whitehouse is indisuputably going down
Haters gonna hate... Trump is a good debate to have though, feel free to start another thread... Can we do Corbyn first though?
“part of the £8 billion we will save on membership can be put towards indirectly subsidising those industries, such as the car export industry for example (directly subsiding would be against wto rules).”
this 8bn, given what we are paying the EU to exit (35-40bn) so 4-5 years of that payment, the money for the NHS, the cash to set up UK versions of EU organisations, the funding for customs and immigration workers/infrastructure and dealing with job losses when does that saving go to pay for anything else?
Haters gonna hate… Trump is a good debate to have though, feel free to start another thread… Can we do Corbyn first though?
I'm amazed you didn't see the threads
Thought that was destined for the NHS
jimster
How much of that £8bn goes to running admin that we will now have to run ourselves?
molgrips - I don't know how much the additional admin would cost, and it is a good point. To give us an indication the whole of UK HMRC 'only' costs £3 billion so I'm pretty sure there would be some change to support industries affected by tariffs and the NHS.
this 8bn, given what we are paying the EU to exit (35-40bn) so 4-5 years of that payment, the money for the NHS, the cash to set up UK versions of EU organisations, the funding for customs and immigration workers/infrastructure and dealing with job losses when does that saving go to pay for anything else?
Admittedly there won't be much change (-: See above point from molgrips abut the cost of admin.
Admittedly there won’t be much change (-:
No change, in fact it would take up to 10 years to pay for leaving based on our current contributions so that leaves no cash for anything in the short term without taxation increasing.
The suns don't add up to the UK being more competitive or prosperous at all do they?
Unfortunately we are walking away from the biggest single trade market with the hope of setting up trade deals with developing countries. America changes their mind when Trump changes his socks, the only probable ones listed on the International Trade website are Australia and New Zealand who have already stated they would rather set a deal up with the EU.
As Richmtb states there are the EU Agencies to be replaced.
Has any Brexiteer ever read Article 50? There is no deal to be set, we leave.
Jimster - You are correct in that thew EU is the worlds biggest single trade market but you make it sound as if we can't do trade with the EU anymore? The average tariff in the eu is only around 2.5% so I'm sure even if we don't get a free trade deal our exports to the eu will carry on with some help needed for industries with higher tariffs. Then we can start to benefit from lower prices for imports from non eu countries and break into new markets with our exports as well as continuing to negotiate free trade deals. The net result I believe will be that the UK is far better off.
We don't just need to trade with developing countries, nor should we. I was just highlighting one area where we could support impoverished nations whilst getting cheaper prices because of the EU's protectionist policies.
Australias and New Zealand having a deal with the EU doesn't preclude them from having a deal with us.
I have covered the cost of admin in an earlier post.
Yes you are correct, there is no deal [with the eu] once we leave. Did anyone say there was? Of course we are currently negotiating one and I would be amazed if we didn't agree one. There's no way the EU would let us go without one. Germany the boss of the EU has too much at stake. They have borrowed billions to lend to Greece (which they are now making a nice profit on) and as we buy 15% of all cars they produce they would be very wise to make a deal with us.
Perhaps Dickens you should start by reading the thread, you should find the answers to many of your questions in there.
We have already explained the difference between an Average Tariff of 2.5% and what it means in real life.
No change, in fact it would take up to 10 years to pay for leaving based on our current contributions so that leaves no cash for anything in the short term without taxation increasing.
The suns don’t add up to the UK being more competitive or prosperous at all do they?
I think they do mikewsmith.
It won't take forever to pay off the 40 billion fee. We (I) have established that the EU admin we have to do won't cost 8 billion (based on the fact that the whole of the UK HMRC 'only' costs £3 billion)
The NHS money is a bit of a red herring, the point is once we pay off the 40 billion there would (in mine and many other opinions) be money left over.
The NHS does need desperately additional funding but that is a separate issue to Brexit.
Someone will mention the drop in the pound as being a cost in the minute so I'll just preempt that. Many experts have said that the pound was already overvalued before the brexit decision and was due a drop. Once the markets see a more certain future I think it will rebound wiping out any falls and then will go on to gain strength (which has both positives and negatives anyway).
I admit the multiculturalism debate has little to do with brexit and was me being mischievous (-:
the word you are looking for is trolling
It won’t take forever to pay off the 40 billion fee. We (I) have established that the EU admin we have to do won’t cost 8 billion (based on the fact that the whole of the UK HMRC ‘only’ costs £3 billion)
Using the money we pay it will take 5 years, that maths is quite simple.
Unless you have more cash from somewhere.
Next up
https://www.politico.eu/article/post-brexit-customs-model-would-cost-uk-business-up-to-20bn/
The cost of doing business with no border arrangements
I'm liking this new troll… his choice of South Africa for sourcing oranges, rather than any of the many other African counties we already import oranges from tariff free, suggests some knowledge and research, THM style, rather than naked Brexiter ranting.
Now, oranges… has South Africa sorted its black spot problem? Standards and safety are a far bigger barrier to trade than tariffs, as we will find out if we can't sort a trade deal with the EU, but they exist for good reasons.
Now… SADC-EU has written into it a ramping down of some seasonal tariffs on oranges from South Africa to zero, yes? I'd rather they went straight to zero right now, rather than slowly dropped year on year, and we're tariff free all year, but then I'm not a farmer. Should we be protecting Spanish farmers? Again, as a non-farmer I could safely say maybe not… but what about our hill farmers? Our shellfish industry?
So, ninpoop - you’ve been instantly outed under your new ID as ‘dickens’ and already begun the usual bishop-bashing that you did before.
Was it worth it?
Just wait till he hits page 10 of the thread for more wacky ideas 🙂
Unless BoJo is testing his pitch here
But the EU contains lots of the countries with the highest costs of living, so I think that particular statistic is not valid if you are trying to say that the EU is actually causing higher food prices.
Dickens is trying to say that we should buy food from say African countries to grow their economies so they don’t suffer as their populations increase. However I’d suggest it’s not as simple as that – if we buy all their food then they won’t be able to feed this increasing population. Our money will push up the prices. AFAIK this is generally what happens. Food should not be treated as a freely tradeable commodity for this reason.
What we should be doing is investing in Africa and other developing nations to develop their economies, not simply monopolising their food market. The fair trade movement was created for a reason.
What will be the effect if we set zero import tariffs? Can countries not suddenly decide to set export tariffs if they decide their own citizens need the food, thereby leaving us in the lurch? I think international trade is a bit more complex than you realise.
And we haven’t even talked about food miles yet. Does it make more sense to get oranges from Spain or South Africa?
Also on environmental lines, by encouraging a country to grow food for cash that might not be suitable, you could end up creating environmental issues. For example, say someone discovers you can grow oranges to export to rich countries in some hot poor country by using intensive irrigation with water taken from rivers – ten years later you have a water crisis.
Molgrips - all good points, of course we have ethics and wouldn't want to cause the problems you describe. But should that mean we don't trade with developing countries? We just need to trade responsibly. Trade would bring massive economic benefits to these nations and their citizens. The EU's protectionist racket are stifling their development which I personally find appalling.
The EU’s protectionist racket are stifling their development which I personally find appalling.
Yawn, every bodies trade police is protectionist to some extent as you want stability. Put down the Trump repeat it manual (true it does sound like ninfan) and try engaging or just go back to the old username you had.
But should that mean we don’t trade with developing countries?
We do trade with developing counties.
EBA and GSP absolutely rock, where developing countries aren't in a position to sort trade deals. The EU use them to protect developing counties from the damage WTO would otherwise inflict on them. I'd hope, even after Brexit, we could/would still implement these, somehow… other things might take priority though, I fear.
Seems to be lots of magical thinking going on.
If we could move seamlessly to WTO, and its a big if, then there are still lots of unanswered questions:
What’s your solution for a customs border? (not N. Ireland that’s a separate issue) will Kent just be turned into a lorry park?
If we put zero tariffs on food whats to stop our entire farming industry from being undercut?
EU Agencies such as Euratom, Europol, EMA, EASA, etc. Which do fairly important stuff, like keep planes in the sky, co-ordinate police to fight international criminals and ensure availability of medicines, whats the plan for replacing those? I would imagine its more than an afternoon’s work to get them set up.
Not expecting any answers soon.
Its like a lot of things Richmtb, its hard and seems impossible, particularly with the customs border issue, but I think we will look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.
The customs border in switzerland (not in the customs union) has over £400 billion of goods from the EU crossing its borders and only costs £639 million to run. Its something we just need to get good at and the Swiss model is one for us to look at.
Yes if we put zero tarriffs on all food then its possible or even probable that our farmers may be undercut. I didn't actually mean we should just put zero tarriffs on all food, but we will have the choice so we can prop up uncompetitive industries if we so wish.
The EU agencies is a good one. Common sense needs to prevail and I think it will. I don't have any problem continuing to pay into some of these agencies providing we are not bound by the ecj etc. The myth of planes being grounded has been well debunked so won't bother going there.
The EU agencies is a good one. Common sense needs to prevail and I think it will. I don’t have any problem continuing to pay into some of these agencies providing we are not bound by the ecj etc. The myth of planes being grounded has been well debunked so won’t bother going there.
Was that by magic wand waving?
So your leave the EU plan ends up costing more than it costs to stay in with less of the benefits? Does that fit on a bus?
the word you are looking for is trolling
Kimbers - Just for clarity, I stand by everything I said on multiculturalism and think its a debate we should be having more of in this country. But its not a huge factor in the brexit debate and I did just throw it in there for shits 'n giggles.