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I guess those freedoms have become indivisible since 2014. (When Romania and Bulgaria got free movement after joining the EU in 2007.)
When new countries join the EU, there is a initial period where other member states can restrict movement of workers. What's your point? That as we transition out of the EU, other member states should be allowed to keep our workers out?
With so many people here possessing superior intellect and economical expertise – it really is surprising that none have actually gone to the top of their profession.
Which professional organisations, or unions, which I'd suggest have key influencers that are at the top of their professions, have said that leaving the EU will be either desirable or easy?
Wopster- I saw that interview with the Tory MP (Peter Bone?).
It was Brexit in a nutshell. Carney calmly offered a thoughtful, considered, planned narrative based on evidence. In response, Bone then delivered a load of angry, ill-informed reactionary bilge, based on... well... who knows? The voices in his head? What he’d just read in the Daily Mail?
The ‘go back to Canada’ line told you everything you need to know
The fact that they don’t fully understand politics, economics and what would actually be best for them is not really their fault.
Sorry, **** them.
They could have gone “I don’t really understand what all this is about, so I’ll do some reading and research”.
But they didn’t, they basically went: “the intelligent people want this, so we’ll do that instead. Rule Britannia, **** the foreigners coming here taking our jobs, **** the EU, and most of all **** David Cameron”.
And despite the mountains of evidence rapidly appearing that make it pretty clear the world doesn’t work the way their pea-brained heads think it does, they just dig in.
So like i said. **** them.
Sorry, * them.
No, * you.
The voters were lied to, and now they want a different course to be set… but the politicians and papers which lied to them won't let them reconsider.
Hello binners.
I think it's safe to assume that Carney doesn't particularly want to go back to Canada.
Given that, it's odd that an English MP is urging him so to do, perhaps bizarrely thinking that his patronising and ill-thought-out demand would have some effect.
His belittling of Carneys' office of Governor (whatever one thinks of the establishment) is just ignorant and disrespectful of a man in a position of huge influence within a system of which the MP himself is part. I would assume that this patriot wouldn't refer to the monarch as "The German Woman"?
There is a connection between Brexiters and Trump fanatics.
Brexiters refuse to accept that the UK is heading for a catastrophe despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Trumpists believe his claims of 'fake news' rather than that from perfectly respectable sources.
I was just wondering if what we are seeing is evolution in action
Is it possible that a gene is being spread in the human gene pool, the practical upshot of it's presence in the organism being that said carrier is unable, through the presence of the gene rather than low IQ, to distinguish evidence and fact from obvious bullshit?
For instance - admirers of Gwynnie Paltrow believe, because they've read it in 'Gloop', that steam-cleaning one's vagina and then inserting lumps of jade into it will result in better health, rather than the medical problems which scientific evidence shows, will result. They have assumed she knows what she's talking about because - well, she's famous.
Interestingly, Paltrow herself dismisses evidence-based critical thinking as 'old school thinking'...
Many people misunderstand evolution, thinking that it means 'improvement".
What it means, of course, is change. Not neccessarily for the better
Loved your 'side of a bus' comment BTW. I'll keep it stored to use myself elsewhere, if you don't mind.
Pip, pip.
The voters were lied to, and now they want a different course to be set…
Are you sure of that?
The voters were lied to, and now they want a different course to be set… but the politicians and papers which lied to them won’t let them reconsider.
My in-law-ish relatives in the NE voted "out" because they are racists and don't want foreigners. The only foreigner they have met is MrsJ, and "we don't mean foreigners like you" etc., but the fact is that their vote has helped contribute to a situation where a) they are economically screwed, and b) MrsJ may have to leave the country.
So yeah - *** em
admirers of Gwynnie Paltrow believe [...]
For the record, I don't 🙂
They could have gone “I don’t really understand what all this is about, so I’ll do some reading and research”.
And what would lead them to do that - education, inquisitive nature, some intelligence etc,. I take it you haven't met many average people that are being born in this country...
I was just wondering if what we are seeing is evolution in action
Nope, we are seeing populists take advantage of people unable to think about things.
And what would lead them to do that – education, inquisitive nature, some intelligence etc,.
A spot of self-awareness and some critical thinking. But as they can’t be arsed, **** them. My empathy is at an end.
Is it possible that a gene is being spread in the human gene pool, the practical upshot of it’s presence in the organism being that said carrier is unable, through the presence of the gene rather than low IQ, to distinguish evidence and fact from obvious bullshit?
Not a chance. The tendency to be in denial has always been there. For all of us.
Had a dig at Ninfan a few pages back over wealth takers and wealth makers...
A wealth taker is an individual or organisation that removes wealth (assets money etc) from individuals
A weath maker is an individual or organisation that provides wealth (jobs opportubity) to individuals
Wealth takers seem on the whole to have voted for brexit, examples would include the Rees Moggs of the world and at the other end working and/unemployed also pensioners.
Wealth makers are people who in many cases run SME type businesses and right up to large employer's they seem to have voted/want remain.
The irony is its the wealth makers who are supposed to make brexit work? And the wealth takers just want to take more...
In summary damned if you do dammed if you dont.
A spot of self-awareness and some critical thinking. But as they can’t be arsed, **** them. My empathy is at an end.
And how do they get self-awareness and critical thinking? Don't think it is a case of being arsed or not.
Sounds like your empathy wasn't very long if already at it's end. Making society better doesn't really include **** em
With so many people here possessing superior intellect and economical expertise – it really is surprising that none have actually gone to the top of their profession.
maybe it’s a case of the cream always goes to the top & water always finding its own level.
it really is ironic to read people on here crying that nobody is listening to the experts anymore
Bit early for the wacky baccy isn’t it?
What the **** are you on about now?
I suppose one advantage of being a bit dim is not having lots of thoughts in the first place. It reduces the chances of some of those thoughts being in conflict with each other and thus causing the need for reflection and self awareness.
If the height of your ambition is to sit on a fence chewing a blade of grass then you’re going to be easily pleased.
Making society better doesn’t really include **** em
No, perhaps not. How do you propose we make UK society "better"?
The fact that they don’t fully understand politics, economics and what would actually be best for them is not really their fault. They have been failed by education, failed by biased media, failed by an older generation who had same problems etc,.
Which is why we have (had?) a representative democracy; electing people who should be able to understand, so that they make the key decisions. We even give them professional civil service advisors to help them. But they couldn't cope with the job they were elected to do, and dumped it back on a referendum, allegedly advisory - which gave them a reason to pause and think how to understand and address the people's real concerns - but that was too difficult for them as well. And so on...
It was just thinking that however badly Brexit turns out, it won't be as bad as WW1 or WW2, which previous generations had to cope with - but actually, the wider trend towards intolerance and nationalism could lead us to war.
Re: wealthtakers and wealthmakers...
I’m sure the gilded generation of boomers who voted for this shit will still all be expecting their ring-fenced, index-linked final salary pensions to be paid, no matter how big a financial hit everyone else has to take as a result of this shitshow
No, perhaps not. How do you propose we make UK society “better”?
That's a tough one... I guess a good starting point would be for all MPs personal and partners finances to be made transparent/public to curb conflicts of interest.
Then you've got industry bosses donating to parties to buy influence in the government .. That needs to be addressed.
I’m sure the gilded generation of boomers who voted for this shit will still all be expecting their ring-fenced final salary pensions to be paid, no matter how big a financial hit everyone else has to take as a result of this shitshow
Yep, they had to work all their lives for that, you know. Well, about 45-50% of their lives actually. Now everyone else will have to work until 85, or die first. Amazing isn’t it?
I’m sure the gilded generation of boomers who voted for this shit will still all be expecting their ring-fenced, index-linked final salary pensions to be paid,
I have made the point quite forcefully to a few on Twitter. There is a very fundamental lack of understanding about how pensions work. There is this delusion that they have saved a pot of money. The reality being I am paying their pension, they paid for their parents pension and I was sort of hoping the next generation would be paying mine!!!
There is this delusion that they have saved a pot of money.
They have and I have if you are talking about private pensions which presumably we are as index linked, final salary was mentioned so not a state pension.
How do you propose we make UK society “better”?
Lots of ways - better equality, better education not so focused on academic subjects, community funding to build communities and get people to actually giving a shit about each other and so on. Realise the last point will be lost on you with your **** em attitude so maybe start with yourself.
They have and I have if you are talking about private pensions
But how much is saved, and how much of the value of that pot is dependent on stock market/etc performance? Crash the economy and those pensions won't be worth much.
Defined benefit final salary relies on the company not going belly up and being able to meet the demand, many companies closed the schemes because they were too great a liability.
Pfft! Whatever! Detail! We don’t do detail in Brexit Britain. Just believe, wave your little flag, then yell at the grown-ups who do do detail (and thus voted against this calamity) to GET ON WITH IT!!!
Defined benefit final salary relies on the company not going belly up and being able to meet the demand, many companies closed the schemes because they were too great a liability
True, but why does that mean you're paying for them? If the company can't meet the demand, the pensioners lose out, or they get funded from the PPF, which is paid for by other pension funds. I paid a lot into my final salary scheme, as did my employer, and the value of the saved pot has to meet a lot of rules aimed at keeping it solvent.
And don't assume everybody with a pension voted for Brexit! I voted to remain, as did my mother and aunts.
Private pensions are invested, not stored away somewhere… the growth that the rest of us need to create will pay for pensioners to draw down on their investments. If current pensioners have guarantees that we don't have as regards their payments, it is future pensioners who'll pay in more now, and get out less later, to compensate.
Obviously, not all pensioners voted Leave… and even those that did need to be involved in whatever happens next. This whole damning of a whole generation, or geographical area, or workforce, or even 51.whatever% of voters has to stop. It helps no one.
There’s no getting away from the stats on the vote, and who voted for what, I’m afraid. Pensioners all voted and they voted to leave by a huge majority.
I’ll just quote my mum on the day of the referendum result:
”I’m embarrassed that my generation has overwhelmingly voted to deprive my grandchildren of all the opportunities that they themselves have enjoyed throughout their lives. It’s disgusting”
My mum thought that she, and other pensioners, shouldnt have been allwed to vote, (as the implications were so far-reaching) and the voting age should have been reduced to include 16 year olds.
I find it hard to disagree with that
I do understand your point Binners, but
Pensioners all voted
isn't accurate!
I think the point kelvin is making is that saying that 'pensioners voted to leave' is like saying 'the people voted to leave' - it fails to recognise those of us who didn't. (I'm doubly miscounted because I wasn't a pensioner then, and I voted remain!)
There’s no getting away from the stats on the vote, and who voted for what, I’m afraid. The English all voted and they voted to leave by a huge majority.
So **** you all!
Clearly, it needs repeating.
Only 17% of those eligible to vote, did so.
That means those voting Brexit, sorry - plunging Britain into a catastrophic disaster, represent less than 10% of the voting population...
I thought the turnout was 70%+
72.2%
I don't think I've ever seen anyone told to go back to Canada before, at least we're diversifying. Or is that bad because he's forcing diversity on us?
At least the brexiteers are getting more honest as the deadline approaches as to what they want.
they don’t just want EU migrants to ‘go home’. They want everyone to ‘go home’
Isn't xenophobia and nationalism brilliant?!
Isn’t xenophobia and nationalism brilliant?!
Yeah, it’s a brilliant card to play. Nice and easy to ‘understand’ doesn’t need any experts etc. And, Johnson, Gove, Fox et al, it’s a really easy genie to put back in the box when you’ve got your limited little Westminster Village goals sorted......
What’s that? You can’t put it back in box when you’ve titillated the bigots’ worst prejudices? Bloody hell, you’d better have a back-up plan......
Oh, your back up plan involves offshore vehicles that mean only you escape the fallout, does it?
Heads used to end up on pikes for less than this fiasco.
Lots of ways – better equality, better education not so focused on academic subjects, community funding to build communities and get people to actually giving a shit about each other and so on.
How does that happen then? Platitudes are lovely, but that's all they are, and they're about as useful as my "**** 'em".
I'm afraid you're in the same rainbow unicorn land the brexiters inhabit if you think otherwise.
How does that happen then?
Magic money tree plus 10-20 years of heavy focus and funding... shame parliamentary terms are 4-5 years and that funding at best will be for 4 with results expected within 2-3.
Ah! I was misinformed and stand corrected.
Fun with percentages here:
http://ukandeu.ac.uk/what-if-everyone-had-voted-in-the-eu-referendum/
How does that happen then? Platitudes are lovely, but that’s all they are, and they’re about as useful as my “**** ’em”.
I’m afraid you’re in the same rainbow unicorn land the brexiters inhabit if you think otherwise.
Well it is made all the harder with people like you around but it could happen if a government wanted it to. The problem is the opposite has been happening with reduced funding to communities, policies that bring about less equality, hammering the poor so they have even less chance of living etc,.
How does that happen then?
Well, I thought that the poster had deliberately picked policy areas where the interventions of our current cabinet have made things worse (defunding of post GCSE education, a test at all cost focus at primary schools, go home vans touring around London, campaigning to reduce the numbers of "them" amoungst "us", crippling cuts to local authority funding hitting services hard). You could start by not doing all that.
The problem is the opposite has been happening with reduced funding to communities, policies that bring about less equality, hammering the poor so they have even less chance of living etc,.
And yet they keep voting for it! And why? Because they believed the lie they’d have more money? Because of the desire for fewer foreigners? Because is some jingoistic fantasy we could bluff our way into some golden times on the sunlit uplands where it’s ok to be poor so long as the U.K. is great again!?
How many times do you need to be kicked back into the dirt?
Whats really astounding is they’ve handing more power to those responsible, not less!
He said the EU had to decide whether to act in the economic best interests of its people, or to go on pursuing an approach determined by an obsession with the purity of its rules.
Replace "EU" with "UK government", and I agree with the disgraced minister.
He is are just aping Trump lies, by accusing the EU with the sins of UK/Tory policy.
Wow! I always knew Liam Fox was a twunt, but that really is weapons grade bellend stuff.
Take virtually every ‘point’ he tries to make and flip it through 180 degrees, then you get nearer the truth.
He is actually suggesting that it is the obligation of the EU to come up with proposals that are palatable to his squalid party!
With idiots like this at the helm we may well be totally screwed.
Yep crunch time is rapidly approaching and the blame for failure has to be put on someone, other than the perpetrators of the farce.
The Brexit bellends have been using the EU as the defaukt scapegoat for their own failure for decades, I’d hardly expect anything different now.
Even by the standards of the clowns presently at the top of the Tory party, Liam Fox istands our as a massive ****!!
but it could happen if a government wanted it to.
Sure, but that would require people to vote for one with such policies. Yet, again and again they don’t. They get the government and the policies they voted for.
They must want these policies.
So **** them.
...but the Conservative party members who will decide who is PM after May will be lapping it up.
So little Liam says that the problem is the EU's intransigence. So it's all their fault.
He also says that the EU is more worried than the UK about the likelyhood (60 - 40, up from his previous estimate of 50 -50) of the UK crashing out next March.
Sky news, that's SKY NEWS, reports that the EU is not bothered at all.
So not only is the UK government in turmoil, not only is the negotiation team now resigning themselves to a disaster and lying to deflect blame but come March, the two major parties will be unelectable. Labour still strangled by the idiots in Momentum with a useless muppet for a leader and the Conservatives fighting each other like rats in a sack and lead by an empty powerless shell (assuming she's still there by then).
Cometh the hour, cometh the nightmare.
All yours, Nige...
They must want these policies.
Okay, give up - you are clearly not able to understand the position 'they' are in and what leads to 'them' being in that position. ****ing em is not going to change anything, in fact it will probably make it even worse.
you are clearly not able to understand the position ‘they’ are in and what leads to ‘them’ being in that position.
I’m impressed that you’ve managed to come to that judgement from just a few forum posts. I wish I had your innocent naïveté.
Anyone regardless of background can accept that they don’t know much about a topic and choose to research it. In this day and age they don’t even need to head to the library or newsagent to do so.
Wilful ignorance is just that: ignorant and wilfully choosing to remain so. **** them.
We were just commenting yesterday on how amazed we were that, given this prolonged hot spell, we’ve not had the traditional hot summer activity of rioting.
i’d say that the way things are going at the moment, with the Brexiteers getting their ‘No Deal’, and the reality of that being about as far as is possible to get from the ‘Sunny Uplands’ promised by Boris and chums, that this time next year the entire country will be ablaze. Especially if one of the high priests of Brexit has replaced May, anointed as PM by less than 100,000 racist pensioners
Whats more, I think that there are elements at the top of the Labour Party who’d be more than happy with that situation
that this time next year the entire country will be ablaze.
I should think there'll have to be a 'strong leader' to stamp that out. 🤐
Boris may get to use his water canons after all then?
Already in hand, no need to panic. DExEU is already planning to cancel police leave:
https://inews.co.uk/news/brexit/holiday-ban-for-police-to-ensure-safe-brexit/
So.
This shower of shit have spent the best part of two years ineffectually arguing with themselves over this totally unnecessary and damaging course of action. And they still can’t agree amongst themselves. Then they are expecting the EU to bend over backwards in the next few months to accommodate something that not even the government themselves know what it is yet. Or, as Little Liam seems to suggest, expecting the EU to come up with a plan that is acceptable to the loons and perhaps presenting it on a cushion and bended knee before Queen Theresa.
We have gone from £350m extra a week for the NHS to unconvincing assurances that there will be ‘adequate’ food supplies when we crash out and police cancelling leave in advance of the likely backlash from a lot of the people who voted for this nonsense.
It’s a ****ing shambles.
I await, without pleasure, observing the collapse from afar.
Good luck everybody. 😦
To be honest woppit, I think the UK government is making such a **** up of all this, we will probably be rounded up and sent back to blighty.
Through out the whole process I was kind of relaxed about my status in Germany and my ability to continue working here, just thought I would have to maybe do a bit extra paperwork. I thought it was a shame that future generations would not be afforded the opportunity that I took, but I didn't think it would have much bearing on my current situation.
I am now extremely concerned that even though I saw the tory brexit party bust to disaster as an act of utter stupidity, I actually underestimated just how much they could **** it up.
I hope anyone living abroad who's funded by a UK pension or investments is prepared for what this debacle could do to the exchange rate. The Euro is bound to take a hit but it'll be nothing to what could happen to Sterling.
1: Yes. All my working and 'put-by' cash will be in Euros in a Spanish bank and Spanish annuity by March.
2: If it comes to it, I shall take back my own control by locking myself in and taking advantage of a whole box of Spanish 1800mg ibuprofen tablets.
I'd rather that than go back to bloody Ruritania
Still have a house in the Uk , with lot of equity , that we rent out . We could not make as much money as we are hoping to .
Also got a frozen private pension . But got my national insurance statement before I left .
My wife might need to apply for french nationality at some point this year .
Ladies and gentlemen, Liam fox:
The prominent Brexiteer said he believed the risk of a no-deal scenario had increased, pinning the blame on the European Commission and Brussels' chief negotiator.
"I think the intransigence of the commission is pushing us towards no deal," he told The Sunday Times. "We have set out the basis in which a deal can happen but if the EU decides that the theological obsession of the unelected is to take priority over the economic wellbeing of the people of Europe then it's a bureaucrats' Brexit - not a people's Brexit - then there is only going to be one outcome."
That's a word salad if ever I've seen one. I wonder if he knows what it means.
My sister has been living and working in holland for 30 years. She is taking Dutch citizenship and I might move there for leaving day and get her and her husband to adopt me 🙂
I wonder if he knows what it means.
It it means that everything will always be someone else’s fault and that no responsiblity should ever be placed at a Brexiteers door...
let the finger pointing and hand washing begin. Also I expect the fact that many will be offshoring funds will be spun as prudence to protect themselves from EU vengeance....
Isn’t Liam Fox a bit like Raab though? Fancy job title, but in reality he’s just there to make the tea or make sure they don’t run out of paper clips?
this brexit mess is also going land at the feet of the freer /less rabid parts of UK press. Not once have I heard an interviewer ask/tell a senior member of the government "You do know the EU is not going to let you have zero tariff access to the Single market without out freedom of movement and if we are going to end up with the norway option why the **** did we ever bother with this shit in the first place or are you suggesting we go for No Deal ?"
People will always vote for no deal. Of the two options it is more palatable for sale to the public.
option a - Norway/eea
worse than we are on now and this is easily quantifiable. There is no logical reason to do this. Why leave if it will all be the same? If remaining was a tough sell this is impossible...
option b - no deal
you cannot quantify throwing you economy to the wind so the leavers can believe in magic unicorns. It attracts the **** you groups who have the EU and the ones that want to see remainers suffer also remainers who want to punish leavers...
As it came up randomly on my headphones today... At what point do we start playing ‘The Final Countdown’ by, rather fittingly, Europe?
also remainers who want to punish leavers…
I think punish is a tad inaccurate. Rather just make sure that they are the ones who bear the brunt of their choice rather than be protected and the damage deflected onto others.
Regardless of the deal reached that is something which should be a goal.
Apart from the less obvious impacts like a gradual decline in work conditions and the demise of eu strategic investments in less developed areas (which have wales nice tourist things with a little sign but had questionable impact) how will your average leave voter be impacted? Farmers will be protected, jobless will still be jobless....
how will your average leave voter be impacted?
Prices of imported stuff will go up or be in shortage..
We import lots of food from Europe.. so when the pound tanks... peoples weekly shops will rise
Thats if there's enough food to even go around
I would have sworn that Fox said that this would be 'one of the easiest [deals] in history'... So not just disgraced but a lying stupid gobshite too.
jobless will still be jobless….
The "average Leave voter" isn't jobless, if you mean working age unemployed. And, of course things can still get FAR worse for those that are unemployed in the UK then they are now, miserable though that is… look into being unemployed in the USA, for example.
We've got May and Hunt telling the French and the Germans how important it is for Europe to do a deal, and Fox talking about how we're heading for a "no-deal" Brexit. All this activity - with practically nothing from Europe - tells me that it's not going very well for the UK.
It's like when you're haggling over something - the person who keeps making new offers is the one that's desperate for a deal; the one who is just folding their arms and walking away knows they can do better.