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Can we have a referendum on the single market?
It’s important - hence why you seem to be struggling and resorting to being rude
as you know, or at least should do, they are different ways we could continue to have access to the EU but each one involves different compromises. Hence we want to negotiate our own version. Some call that a bespoke deal but that seems to upset a few folk.
we had one mol. We lost
You love people being rude to you, otherwise why would you troll so much? Surely, that's the fun of it for you?
One mans trolling is another mans asking a question you can’t/won’t answer.
Pages and pages of "answers" as regards operating in the SM & CU, via agreements, to the same or limited degree as now, but not being full members, and the loss of control that goes along with that. Read back. Get out of your troll loop.
Getting there exactly
So why talk about leaving the SM? Why all the we don’t know what’s happening BS
We know that there may be alternative ways in which we can continue to have access to the SM and vice versa. And we know the position of the government in relation to them and where the contradictions lie
so after pages and pages of we don’t know what’s happening, it’s actaully very clear. Unless you are undemocractic and want to misrepresent what is happening in order to reverse a battle lost. That’s clear too.
Jamba and Mefty have both made it clear why they think that the worst way to Leave the EU is stay in the SM, and why, without playing your time wasting games.
Ah… the “just pretend it isn’t a customs border” solution…
Well if it is good enough for the Head of HMRC, I am not one to have the temerity to doubt it.
I am miles away from Jambalaya, he favours WTO, I said a trade deal is the way to go and we need to negotiate it when we have most to offer which is now. As regards the future, who knows, exciting isn't it.
So trade deal, but no customs agreement of any kind Mefty? Or just not one resembling the Customs Union? Do you not think a limited customs agreement would help/enable keeping the NI border as free moving as you are outlining? FTA might be enough… not read anything that really sugggests that's the case though. The Sweden/Norway border is pretty messy for goods.
Ideally we would have frictionless borders, but if the only way of achieving that is to remain in the Customs Union, then we should leave because that would limit our future opportunities too much. If there is no way to obtain future upside then it is a bit of a cop out, albeit one that some leavers may be happy with. I should add I voted Remain.
I know the EU would kick and scream… what what about a customs agreement for goods (for frictionless borders), but not services or agri and fish? Should we not aim for that… gives us control over trade deals with third countries for services (the biggy), food, fishing and farming. Special case for Ireland (DUP would kick and scream) as regards agri?
CU give no access to services
Why would the UK pursue that option?
Frictionless borders for manufacturing, and freedom to strike new trade deals for agri (we won't be in CAP anyway) and services (the biggie for us when it comes to distant markets).
Reading that going to America thread horrified me with the lack of time off out there.
Can we look forward to a reduction of paid holiday and sick leave?
After all , we will have to be competitive in this brave new world.
If we ship in Bangladeshis to do all the shit jobs , will they have any rights? I'm sure they would take whatever is going if it means living somewhere that won't be flooded.
CU give no access to services
Agreed, but it also doesn't prevent us striking our own trade deals either… that's the Common Economic Policy… but the two are so often lumped tighter when talking about this. To be clear, I'm suggesting an agreement that forms a CU and CEP for manufactured goods, but not agri, fish, or services… the three areas where I've heard the most about "taking back control" and heading out to get new better trade deals… manufacturing can keep its frictionless supply chains, and sell into all 30 odd geographically close countries with hassle.
Hence my preference for what the Gov is doing - pursuing a Bespoke FTA that will include services
Hence ^2 why I support the proposal floated today and the basic principle of working around a common goal of regulatory equivalence
pretty common sense for most industries
I would be happy with that as it gives us options, but whether it can be delivered is another matter - not convinced Ireland is such a problem with a bit of pragmatism, a special regime for agriculture already exists in Ireland so it isn't a huge leap.
THM, you're happy to try and keep as much of the juicy EU work for the financial services as possible, and screw manufacturing and retail… that's how that sounds to me.
Mefty, keeping an all Ireland agri plan should be a stated goal, even if it means agri/food customs border moving to the NI/rUK border. We can see why it isn't though, "politics".
No juicy margins in Europe, far better elsewhere in the world, but if we can find a compromise that restricts us on physical goods, but gives us freedom on invisibles where we are so heavily invested, that seems to work for an awful lot of people.
For the record, I don't think mainland farming, fishing and food production will do well from any of what I've proposed… but Leaving the EU really does have to mean being no part of CAP… no other way it can work really. Fishing is different… we could make that work as non EU members… but so much fuss has been made about that industry I'm past caring about those involved in it… throw it to the international market wolves…
There we are Mefty… some agreement on how we could move forward. Only between two of us though… very few others would agree… unimportantly you'd never get half the country to go for it… more importantly there's zero chance the cabinet would go for it.
There have been quite a few things over the last year that have been “perfectly clear” that have strangely turned out to be nothing of the sort
For example it was Cameron who said it would be respected and also said he would remain in position to enact the decision. So thats a fail for starters.
Prominent members of the brexit campaign also made it clear they wouldnt respect the decision if it went against them but would continue to campaign.
more importantly there’s zero chance the cabinet would go for it.
I am sure I read something along these lines is being mooted - certainly a different approach for services and manufacturing.
Yes, one of multiple contradictory leaks… …no idea which department that one was floated by… …but it came just before Mogg and his merry band pushed May to clearly rule such a fudge out… place your bets on which minister tried that one on… it's either the home office or the treasury… isn't it… they seem to be the only ones paying attention to Ireland and to manufacturers (by which I mean those actually making things here, not brands who offshore).
Wouldn't concern yourself with JRM, Gove is the key, if he buys in, it will be delivered.
not convinced Ireland is such a problem with a bit of pragmatism,
I doubt if, deep down, anyone didn’t see it as political posturing from the start. Given that the EU manages to successfully maintain a land border with Suriname and Brazil, I reckon that a way can always be found to sole unusual problems where necessary.
Gove is only in there because you know who in the world of the media said he had to be… the same person that told him to sink Boris. So, when you say Gove is the key, you don't mean he makes his own decisions on this… do you…
Kelvin your incorrect conclusion suggests that you are not listening carefully
amused by the obsession with Rees-Mogg - Remind us what role he plays in reality?
Oh fer **** sake… troll pretends to not understand the role of key Tory player.
No rationsl analysis allows the role of a back bencher on the fringe of what is happening to be put into perspective
you seem very volatile today. Have you been on the pop?
Volatile? Or friendly to others, but full of contempt for one time wasting troll? Keep having your fun.
I will thank you. For a while you were able to have a sensible discussion. Perhaps it was the vision of JR-M that pushed you over the edge?
he really is not worth worrying about
plenty of water is always good advice IIRC
If you took the scorn out your posts there would just be blank pages
To think he wont reply to me* because he claims I am a troll and he thinks others have comprehension issues
Bless
* strangest punishment ever but thanks
THM might not have heard that JRM is chair of the ERG.
He will simultaneously not know of the group at all, and know who all the members are, and claim that we should also know, because everyone does, but he won't tell us who they are.
Not the ERG!!!!
But are they grown ups?
Ask Jacobs nanny?
in the meantime everyone PANIC
is the weather really that bad in the uk ?
nothing better to do ?
"Customs borders with NI without infrastructure other than ANPR etc, high thresholds and pre-clearance for trusted traders"
You're having a laugh with that, HMRC hasn't been able to govern trusted traders, non-trusted traders for years and has neen rinsed on excise and mtic / carousel fraud for years also there's no infrastructure in place
Kilo - it sounds like a government IT project is needed. So that’ll go well then.
And cchris, the weather is not warm and dry enough nor cold and snowy enough. That answer the question.
Still, I managed 40 miles on the bike today, interview with the Telegraph (not on Brexit), plus a bit of work. So not all bad.
....interview with the Telegraph....
Scrub yourself hard but try to stop short of bleeding. I suggest Betadine on the most contaminated areas.
1 Tariff free trade with Europe2. Access to single market for services
3. Seamless and frictionless borders
4. Voluntary participation in EU programmes
So.... membership of the EU in all but name then?
1. Would at least require acceptance of EU standards in the production of what we trade
2. Would require a dispute resolution system that by weight of power in these negotiations is almost certainly going to be the ECJ or nothing
3. Sounds a lot like FoM
4. Sounds like something we’d have to pay quite a lot for
Perhaps the best leave option would be to just tell everyone that we’ve left, but then not actually do so. We can have blue passports anyway.
Gove is only in there because you know who in the world of the media said he had to be… the same person that told him to sink Boris. So, when you say Gove is the key, you don’t mean he makes his own decisions on this… do you…
You are getting carried away with Murdoch conspiracy theories, whilst he no doubt rates him, and is quite likely to have encouraged him to go for the leadership, you overstate his influence. Gove is his own man, he also happens to be an incredibly effective minister and of the main Brexit players, he is the one with the most intellectual heft. That is why he is the keyman, if he agrees, Boris won't risk disagreeing with him.
JRM and the ERG aren't going to risk losing the war, just to win one battle.
“and of the main Brexit players, he is the one with the most intellectual heft.”
Oh come on, that’s like trying to describe the best Celine Dion song as a great composition. It might be her best song, but it’ll still be absolute tripe.
The tragedy is that mefty is right (in that detail)
You do realise that Goldman (the most popular man in France for many years) wrote Celine Dion's greatest compositions, Zokes. Say whatever you want about her singing but the songs are objectively great compositions.
That’s me told then 😂
Substitute Celine for the spice girls 😝
Anyone else hear irony meters popping upon seeing this headline about May's speech tomorrow?
Theresa May will warn EU leaders that public safety will suffer if they allow "political doctrine and ideology" to hamper post-Brexit security arrangements.
Goves not the worry, it's the Lady Macbeth that pulls his strings, you wanna watch.<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Tbf looking at other prominent Brexiters: Johnson, Redwood, Johnson, Dorries, Leadsome, perpetually befuddled Davis, Fox.... Gove can probably tie his own shoes so he has the edge there!*</span>
*JRM might be able to do it too, but he likes to stay in character, so gets someone from below stairs to do it
Oh, good… Gove is the key person when it comes to what happens in NI as we Leave the EU is he… well, that's… just… great…
Gove is an out and out liar and opportunist who deserves no senior role in government. If his constituents want him to represent them, so be it. But the rest of us deserve better. Should be left on the backbenches
🤯
THM speaks the truth on Gove
"Key line from PM on ECJ jurisdiction re Europol and European Arrest Warrant: “The Treaty ..must be respectful of sovereignty of both UK and EU’s legal orders. So, for example, when participating in EU agencies the UK will respect the remit of the European Court of Justice”.
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/964808218240278528
Brexiteers such as THM and Jambalaya will be foaming at the mouth.
You sound surprised IGM
unlike Perdy who thinks I am Brexshiteer 😳
No, we all know you’re a troll.
You are however spot on re: Gove, hence my mind blown emoticon
Fortunately I don’t give a monkey’s left testicle what you think or post zokes. I do enjoy reading your posts occasionally though in an ironical sense. Few could match them.
A fun diagram…
[img] 
?itok=SEOQQPIF[/img]
No ECJ, or similar, considerations on there… and that's not an irrelevant "axis" to miss off. So only a fun diagram, not a hugely useful representation of all the compromises to be considered. May's latest speech could be interpreted as being flexible and practical as regards this… but without meat on the skeleton… it could just be another bone to throw to her party as she backs into another corner.
Anyway… about time the FoM redline is addressed… that's where compromise would be most useful to getting a good deal… with the side effect of making this a better, stronger, richer country, and keep more opportunities open to our kids. And, no, FoM isn't for EU member countries only (see fun diagram), and, no, it wasn't the referendum question, whatever Farage&May say…
THM - not surprised, I don’t think I’ve accused you of lying - adopting positions I don’t agree with perhaps, but not lying. Not even thought it really.
I was just being clear in my support of your statement.
The lady doth protest too muchI don’t give a monkey’s left testicle what you think or post zokes
about time the FoM redline is addressed…
Just to be clear, freedom of movement of what? People or workers?
This is one of the issues with ECJ, given their creeping interpretation of the caselaw on this issue over time.
I know IGM I was joshing
Fair enough. Bad day.
On the other hand the Telegraph quoted me today. Not sure it’s the quote I’d have used but que sera.
Sorry to hear.
Any clues on the article? Is that why it was a bad day.
No THM, family stuff made it a bad day. Nothing untoward, just life.
The article was about edf profits, with a couple of quotes from me about energy efficiency. Not quite where I’d have put the emphasis, but they are valid quotes. They’re just a bit snapshoty, of the moment, rather than getting a sense of the present within the past and future.
Still cultivate the odd journalist and maybe someday you’ll get them to tell the story you want heard. It the meantime it’s all publicity.
Sorry to hear
I was scanning Torygraph to find the article and had s quick look at EDF one but didn’t guess !!
i avoid media as much as poss after the Beeb once tried to stitch me up on a radio interview
hope things get better
They won’t - we’re into the long end game. But thanks anyway - appreciated.
Sorry to hear that IGM.
Just to be clear, freedom of movement of what? People or workers?This is one of the issues with ECJ, given their creeping interpretation of the caselaw on this issue over time.
Which ECJ judgement as regards FoM do you have an issue with Ninfan? Or is it that rights of "people" more generally are addressed, rather than just "workers" specifically, that's your issue? Is it pensioners, or children, or other non-working relatives that you feel should be excluded? Students?
So not the brexit one igm, http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/17/rabid-vindictive-rage-remainers-now-borders-pathological/
Feels like it could have been taken from this thread in places. Just to be clear it is apparently not yet proven as false that 350mil goes to the nhs and we are just picking on borris
So not the brexit one igm, <span class="skimlinks-unlinked"> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/02/17/rabid-vindictive-rage-remainers-now-borders-pathological</span>/
That's Janet Daley. She's trolling just to get ad click revenue. Sadly, I've fallen for it.
Ninfan has previous on not being able to distinguish the ECJ from the ECtHR.
As have many of those who lost but like to complain about it too much.
Still good to hear Verhofstadt being less bellicose and talking sense on Marr
trade deal - tick
transition - tick
fin services to be included - tick
progress...
Still not sure if this softening of the position as regards ECJ will outlive the next meeting with the Cabinet (or Dacre), but still promising…
Ninfan has previous on not being able to distinguish the ECJ from the ECtHR.
As have many of those who lost but like to complain about it too much.
By which you mean what, @teamhurtmore?
That May has said she wants her party to campaign on leaving ECHR? And that this would only be possible if we aren't EU members (or in any kind of satellite agreement)?
Give us a clue, or better still, just quit the vague condescending quips.
@ninfan, do you want to help us understand your comment on "people" and the ECJ? Better than others putting words in your mouth for you. More interesting to hear from you, I suspect.
Well, Kelvin, various, though for a start I don’t think some of the conclusions in C-149/79, C-482/01, C-209/03 and C-68/69 were really compatible with the treaties, and were an attempt, not unusual in non-common law jurisdictions, to caveat the treaties and extend the protections offered, in order to create what the judges felt to be the right outcome rather than a true attempt at interpretation of the statutory language as written or the intent of those who drafted it.
Simple kelvin. Stop trying to make things complicated. It’s not just Brexshiteers who confuse the two bodies and their responsibilities. Those who “lost but cannot accept the result” do too. Often for deliberate effect.
Thanks Ninfan… Judges do interpret intention, it's part of their roles. Sometime too widely, sometimes too narrowly… in the view of others. If an "England&Wales" judge made such interpretations too widely (in your view), would that still bother you?
Poor trolling THM. Just dull really.