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I don't disagree THM - I really hope we do come up with a solution that actually works without giving an excuse for people to start blowing stuff up!
So do I AD. So do I. More importantly I think the Uk and Irish governments get it too Not sure about the Europeans
Two hours to go kelvin. Enjoy the pancakes in the meantime, then no more porky pies for 40 days. Can you do it?
Tell you what… why don't those of you that feel we absolutely must leave at all cost, agree amougst yourselves what you want… it's entirely risk free… you're not the government. When you have reached consensus, and a plan, ask the rest of us to back it… depending what you come up with, you might be surprised.
Good luck getting that **** of a troll to talk about your options plainly Leavers… have fun! Come back to us once you have something for us to look at.
@Ninfan : please explain how leaving the EU work in practice ?
if you find an answer , you tell the government .
Why don’t those of you that feel we absolutely must leave at all cost, agree amougst yourselves what you want
We have, we’ve agreed that we want to leave the EU
This has been explained to you on several occasions but you still keep asking people to tell you what leavers are agreed on. I really don’t see why the concept of people being agreed on a desire to leave the EU is so difficult for you to conceptualise, is is some form of mental block?
explain how leaving the EU work in practice
It appears to be fairly simple, there is a process laid out in Article 50 of the Lisbon treaty that means that two years after giving notice of our intention to leave, our EU membership ceases, unless we agree an extended transition period.
again, this appears to be well understood by most people, and exactly what the government have been doing. Why is it’s so very difficult for STW remainers to understand (bearing in mind how remainers keep telling us that they are so much better educated than leavers, you have to wonder why so many of them appear appear to be so very stupid)
WTO option is my preference and aside from that pretty much anything is better than being a member.
At what point would you feel that the government has failed what you were looking for when voting out?
Has anyone thought of Gibraltar lately? Who thinks it is going to be collateral damage?
pops in look around sees its the same as last week
leaves
Seriously at this point Brexit means Brexit, it's red white and blue with red lines, it's got to happen otherwise all those people who wanted something they don't understand will get upset and maybe choke on their kippers.
For most we could probably send out a letter saying we have left, maybe put it on a bus and it would keep them happy, they will still blame the EU for everything that is wrong, complain about things and be happy doing it.
Has anyone thought of Gibraltar lately? Who thinks it is going to be collateral damage?
There appears to be complete ignorance the implications for a portion of the UK (i.e. NI) that has in the past taken to trying to settle disputes with bombs and automatic weapons. I seriously doubt Gibraltar will cross any Brexy's mind until the point when the Spanish rock up at the gates demanding we surrender.
Then, of course, that will all be the EU's fault too
Based on posting history Zulu11 personally doesn't want foreigners in Britain. Thats his reason for leaving.
OK Ninfan, article 50 has been triggered but how does it work in Northern Ireland ?
The premise given by a few on here and many who voted leave has shifted recently from an economic to a an "other reasons" position as the reality of the economic consequences has started to materialise.
Give it a few months and no doubt it will become "it was never about the money" which makes the swivel eyed happy and the poor folks can continue to "justify" their vote.
As I have stated before - i no longer give a **** for the poor folks (i used to and should considering my political views) sad fact is lessons need to be learned the very hard way.
Me and my family are reasonably well protected and it will have to get very bad before we feel any significant pain - I have been there before from 79 to 85 without my current level of "protection" it is not pleasant.
As I said back up this thread taking the moral (questionable) high ground doesn't pay the bills.
However here's a question - removing my right to free movement in the EU is that a removal of my human rights..... if the inhouse Barrack Room Lawyers would like to give a view that would be great.
So Boris Johnson is setting out an idea of a "liberal" brexit. Which of course, is entirely possible.
But is it every likely to happen?
Has he used any words to define that? Im assuming just another meaningless soundbite like bespoke deal
ninfan - I hope for your sake that you’re just trolling because otherwise someday you’ll read that last post back and wonder why on earth you wrote it.
You lot wasted any good will you had with “your we won you last get over it” mantra, your enemies of the people, traitors, and saboteurs headlines and (while you all know individually what you voted for and what leaving the EU means) your inability to agree collectively.
We’re tired of waiting for you lot to sort yourselves out. The majority who voted 2 years ago backed Brexit (that they collectively either didn’t know what it was, or have forgotten) by the narrowest of margins, but the majority for sometime now wish to remain (July last year was the last time leave were ahead I think).
Time to put up or shut up. Sort the problem or admit you can’t and stop messing the British people around.
And do it soon enough that there’s some negotiating time left.
Useless Brexies.
Wow IGM that’s a bit unlike you
if you are sick and tired - look to Europe
they set the agenda, they set the three delaying conditions which they finally fudged
we know that there are contradictions on both sides, that require compromises. These centre on trade and then the test stems from there. The EU has deliberately stalled on trade in an effort to back UK in a corner but this is backfiring despite Barnierd pretence at solidarity.
Clarity is not determined in London. It only emerges when trade is thrashed out by both parties. Anyone delaying that should be the target of your ire.
if you are sick and tired – look to Europe
they set the agenda, they set the three delaying conditions which they finally fudged
we know that there are contradictions on both sides, that require compromises. These centre on trade and then the test stems from there. The EU has deliberately stalled on trade in an effort to back UK in a corner but this is backfiring despite Barnierd pretence at solidarity.
If only somebody had pointed out that this would happen, if only people had known the UK would be in the little chair for the negotiations, if only we could have seen this coming....
I told you several times but you guys wanted to pin the blame in the wrong place
except for the little chair bit
the EU set the agenda and the terms.
Sorry the blame lies with the EU for the UK having unrealistic demands, being completely unprepared for the negotiations, having not prepared any of the relevant reports and analysis needed or looked at the legal positions of what it is trying to do?
Don't forget that this Red White and Blue Brexit will just be Red once comrade Corbyn gets in.
Do you really know what your vote means?
<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">As I have stated before – i no longer give a **** for the poor folks (i used to and should considering my political views) sad fact is lessons need to be learned the very hard way.</span>
+1 to that. If factory workers in Sunderland want to shit their own bed then that's their problem, dont expect me to get in with them or clear it up for them.
Frankly that property in portugal option looks more attractive by the day.
+1 to that. If factory workers in Sunderland want to shit their own bed then that’s their problem, dont expect me to get in with them or clear it up for them.
Shame the tax contribution funds things like the NHS which impacts us all.
THM - it doesn’t help the UK’s negotiating position that the Brexies are still pursuing a path guaranteed to divide the UK population, and indeed is turning people slowly against Brexit.
That just ensures a bad outcome.
If you didn’t think these people (and I’m referring to the Brexy leaders here) were idiots before, then they have proven it time and again since June 2016.
They are dragging this country down.
But hey, they won, so let’s support them in their attempts to trash the UK.
But hey, they won, so let’s support them in their attempts to trash the UK.
That's the spirit!
Let me put it another way.
I am still livid with the Brexies - a bunch of wreckers who see the cost of everything and the value of nothing and are hell bent on wrecking the way of life this country has enjoyed for nothing other than ideological reasons.
We’d be well shot of those folk.
Borris the great unifier will give a speech today.
No mention of compromises, just the usual bluster.
If the government really wanted to unify the country, now would be a time for honesty.
Instead the brexiters are doubling down on the lies (great example of Mogg yesterday caught out bullshitting about tariffs on coffee from the 3rd world)
Sadly with Johnson on the ticket, there's no hope of that
The man that wanted Turkey in the EU may yet surprise us.
I am still livid with the Brexies – a bunch of wreckers who see the cost of everything and the value of nothing and are hell bent on wrecking the way of life this country has enjoyed for nothing other than ideological reasons.
We’d be well shot of those folk.
Ah, so essentially just what we always thought then, a tantrum because you’re not getting your own way for once. The joys of living in a democracy eh?
Ah, so essentially just what we always thought then, a tantrum because you’re not getting your own way for once. The joys of living in a democracy eh?
No, just anger that so many people have done something stupid.
How would you feel if the vote had been remain? Happy? Or cross?
Ah, so essentially just what we always thought then, a tantrum because you’re not getting your own way for once. The joys of living in a democracy eh?
I'm sure if the vote went the other way, you'd be perfectly accepting of it
I would have thought it was the wrong decision and said so, but ultimately taken the loss like a man and moved on, hoping that future significant changes, likely years away, led to change
what I wouldn’t have done is spent the next two years whining like a pussy for a do-over
But would you have been angry?
I think igm is behaving like a man. He's not having a 'tantrum' as you so shittily put it, he's calmly expressing his opinions and how he's feeling. I can't see a problem with that. He's hardly ranting and abusing is he?
It's not a game of football. I think the country is harming itself for the wrong reasons, and people didn't act with intelligence and rationality. I think it's being governed with dreadful incompetence. Why shouldn't I be angry? It's my democratic obligation to voice my opinion.
I think you under-estimate how much this means to some of us.
ninfan - no tantrum, no whining. I just know a bunch of idiots wrecking the country when I see one.
It's not only Brexit ,it's what these clowns are tagging onto it.
Snooping, fracking, loss of rights...."You voted for it"
I think igm is behaving like a man.
Sure. A whiney, tantrum throwing one.
I'll leave you to decide if I would have put a winky at the end. Progress is a funny thing.
PS for the record, given you clearly haven’t been listening (what a surprise) I don’t want a “do-over” as I have said several times.
A second (third?) referendum would damage the country even more.
I think our politicians need to grow up, do what is right for the country, and either get a deal that works for most (not just 52%) or junk Brexit.
Maslow’s hierarchy applies. Self expression like “sovereignty” comes long after food and shelter and security.
whining like a pussy for a do-over
ninfan, classy as ever!
5th - always good to see a high quality argument. Haven’t seen one from you yet of course.
You can add a winky if you want.
Are we all looking forward to Boris's big speech then?
The man who slapped the £350 million for the NHS bollocks down the side of a bus is going to ask us all, retainers and leavers, to unite behind his grand vision of Brexit
This should be pure comedy gold! 😀
I think it’s being governed with dreadful incompetence. Why shouldn’t I be angry? It’s my democratic obligation to voice my opinion.
Criticism of the governance, negotiation stance, style, leadership, goals etc. is all entirely valid discussion. I made the point earlier that we could have spent the last year and a half having that discussion.
my ire is pointed entirely at those who have sought to overturn, ignore, filibuster or deny the democratically expressed will of the people to leave the EU - discussions about what leaving the EU consists of and the advantages or disadvantages of the various post Brexit trading and social agreements have been utterly ignored and lost in the noise due to the committed and repeated attempts to overturn the referendum outcome by those who lost
5th – always good to see a high quality argument. Haven’t seen one from you yet of course.
Arguments stopped with the referendum. All that's left is the anti-democratic exposing themselves to ridicule.
my ire is pointed entirely at those who have sought to overturn, ignore, filibuster or deny the democratically expressed will of the people to leave the EU
If only the government could provide us with some kind of idea what they are aiming for, perhaps allow reports to be public and debate to occur. In the absence of a reasonable plan we are suggesting that people go away and form one then come back and present it. Until then stop the madness.
Arguments stopped with the referendum. All that’s left is the anti-democratic exposing themselves to ridicule.
Yep, only a view held by those doing the brexit whatever the cost argument isn't it.
you forgot morons as a moron with no grasp of what democracy means could also think that
you forgot morons as a moron with no grasp of what democracy means could also think that
Exactly what a would-be totalitarian would say.
The lack of emoticons is actually making this more entertaining.
only a view held by those doing the brexit whatever the cost argument isn’t it.
i don’t remember the “leave as long as it doesn’t cost us too much” box on the referendum form. Perhaps I missed it? Maybe it was somewhere between the “stay, as long as TTIP isn’t signed” and “stay, as long as we are promised a referendum before any further steps towards federalisation” boxes?
Yes a totalitarian would definitely be pointing out that one of democracies key points is open and public debate and open dissent. They would definitely be doing it to someone who says the debate has ended and there can be no dissent or change of opinion - that certainly helped refute the moron charge there. I am not even sure you are bright enough to realise what a self pwning that statement was.
Oh and being wrong twice certainly helped refute the moron claim 🙄
😆
😉
😀
😳
etc
Bless
5th - you need to read your posts back to yourself. You are at least giving me someone to laugh at though so keep it up.
I’m not very good at being bullied, and ninfan and you will need to raise your game significantly if you’re going to manage in you attempts.
Best of luck.
i don’t remember the “leave as long as it doesn’t cost us too much” box on the referendum form. Perhaps I missed it?
Nail and head, you all voted for something that none of you can define other than leave, to put that in context it's like leaving the living room, somebody is happy in the kitchen, others meant outside, somebody is in the crapper and the rest went upstairs. Come back when you have all agreed what leave actually means and what practical steps need to be taken to achieve this. Trigger article 50 is procedural not an achievement,
my ire is pointed entirely at those who have sought to overturn, ignore, filibuster or deny the democratically expressed will of the people to leave the EU
Right - but that's not what we're doing here.
However - a second referendum would still be the democratically expressed will of the people woudl it not? When all the information has come to light?
The referendum was asking us (IIRC) if we thought we'd be better off outside. We shoudl not have triggered A50 then - we should have made a plan, created and evaluated options and voted on those. All done democratically.
This is a complete and total ballsup from every possible angle, including the democratic one.
Arguments stopped with the referendum.
What? We're not allowed to discuss our future any more? Why not?
The referendum was asking us (IIRC) if we thought we’d be better off outside. We shoudl not have triggered A50 then – we should have made a plan, created and evaluated options and voted on those. All done democratically.
the government who held the referendum was elected on the basis of a pledge to hold a referendum and to honour and enact the result
the government that replaced that government was elected on the basis of a pledge to enact the result of the referendum that had already taken place
How much more democracy do you want?
The strongest argument you could possibly make on a Democratic basis was that theee was room for a future government to be elected on the basis of a pledge to hold a referendum on rejoining the EU after the leave process has been completed
And founding a department under Davies with a brief to investigate and present a plan to the UK people and EU team would still be 100% within the spirit of what was said and promised. The UK could then have started the whole process from a knowledgeable standpoint rather than lurching from one discovery to the next - like your comparison with house buyers - it's exactly what the UK has done, played all it's cards on day 1.
So, have the STW Brexit cheerleaders found a consensus yet?
I want something to "get behind"… until that something has been formed, articulated and agreed on… then I'll keep suggesting that we should keep our special one-off form of EU membership. I can't get behind multiple contradictory proposals… set out what you want…
Jamba is the only one with the balls to set out his preferred option, and to say what kind of deal he absolutely could not back… but is happy with a wide range of options otherwise. What about the rest of you? Engage with him… start moving towards something you can all back… and then ask us to support you.
They need look no further than the clarity offered by Boris' speech today.
We have a new Valentine's Day massacre.
has he been unfaithful to yet another lover?
So, have the STW Brexit cheerleaders found a consensus yet?
Yes, we all want to leave the EU.
but if you really want something to get behind, how about this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=3s&v=UGFClyukkuY
And beyond that soundbite you have nothing. Nearly 2 years and still no actual plan or credible vision.
Brexit means Brexit.
Some very funny quotes in that Thatcher vid. I'm sure you think it gives valuable historical context… but what it does not do is spell out what happens next…
Relax folks. We've all now got something to rally behind.....
Brexit will provide 'Government for the people, by the people'
Everything clear now?
Good. Now... all wave your little flags....
the government who held the referendum was elected on the basis of a pledge to hold a referendum and to honour and enact the result
the government that replaced that government was elected on the basis of a pledge to enact the result of the referendum that had already taken place
How much more democracy do you want?
What I want is competent governance. So in 'enacting the result' I don't want to see the plug pulled with no real plan, and no ability to create one, plunging the country into chaos whist a small group of people try and fail to decide what *they* want.
If they were 'enacting the result' with open debate and a bit of common bloody sense I'd have far less to complain about. The incompetence is far worse than the result of the referendum.
Yeah, Im not sure who thought that Borris speech would somehow reunite a bitterly divided nation but they need to go away and think a bit harder next time.
To be fair in the Q & A after even Johnson knew that was a load of guff, he just kind of gave up trying to pretend.
what I wouldn’t have done is spent the next two years whining like a pussy for a do-over
Brexit COULD prompt a proper reorganisation of UK politics that could be brilliant. But I've got absolutely no idea if it'll happen. I've got no idea what's going to happen at all. But apparently THM does. So either:
a) It's all being worked out in secret - bad
b) It's not being worked out at all and there's no plan - bad
Ninfan why are you trying so hard to be such an unpleasant person?
In health and social care there's a piece of legislation called the mental capacity act.
I am reminded of it every time I open this thread
why are you trying so hard to be such an unpleasant person
He doesn't have to try hard. He's a hardcore right winger. They're far from pleasant.
As for the government Id like some evidence based policy.
The white papers we've had so far have been severely lacking in either evidence or policy (science whitepaper was contradictory, confused & threw up more questions than answers)
Its only been 20months since the ref (+ 40 years of whining) you'd think the brexies would have a semblance of a plan by now!
Ninfan why are you trying so hard to be such an unpleasant person?
Duh, I can’t help it can I? After all, us brexies are all stupid, bitter, angry, hate filled people. We know it must be true because the remainers have spent the past two years telling us so.
why are you all feeding him ?
He will say anything with only two objectives
1)response-any
2)someone gets upset with what he says
he does not mean a word of what he says so why feed and engage with him?
it fills in the time waiting for Jamby and THM to hand in their homework
"5thElefant
Arguments stopped with the referendum."
Look around you. See? Now try living in the real world.
Here's the thing about democracy. Yes, the majority of people who voted, voted for brexit. But nobody voted for a particular brexit- there was no option to do so as Ninfan agrees. Brexiteers say this as if it's a licence for any and all brexits, but actually it's exactly the opposite- it's the reason that the vote for brexit, can't be considered a vote for any one particular brexit.
Will all hard brexiteers be happy with the softest possible brexit? Clearly not, they will have been BETRAYED. Will all soft brexiteers be happy with WTO? Of course not, remaining in the EU is closer to what they want than that. Will all brexiteers be happy with a no-deal brexit? A brexit that maintains freedom of movement? Involvement with the ECJ? A "brexit in name only"?
It's patently untrue that a vote to leave is an endorsement of all subsequent decisions, especially those that go counter to promises made before the referendum, brexiteers themselves make this argument all the time when someone proposes a brexit they don't like. Ironically Jamba of all people explained this very nicely about 500 pages ago. Offer Jacob Rees-Mogg a brexit-in-name-only and see what he thinks about democracy.
I can see why this gets depicted as remainers trying to overthrow democracy- it's an easy brute force card to play. I doubt I'd play it myself but I can see the effectiveness, certainly. But if we had a vote on whether to stay in tonight or to go out, you wouldn't consider that a vote to go out commits everyone to go to the opera, or to go downtown and get tattoos, or whatever else the person at the front decides to do.
And I think it should go without saying that this works both ways- if we voted to remain, and then the EU collapsed (it's going to happen any day now, we're told) or rapidly changed direction and went somewhere we hate, it'd be mad to dismiss all discussion of leaving with No! We voted to stay in tonight and watch TV, and we're damn well going to do so, even if the house burns down! DEMOXY!
it’s the reason that the vote for brexit, can’t be considered a vote for any one particular brexit.
But it was still a vote for Brexit - and the concentrated effort by the remainers has been to ignore and/or attempt to overturn this by rabidly arguing against Brexit and denigrating those in favour of it rather than constructively and actively promoting a form of Brexit that retained the freedoms they feared losing (AKA potential compromise)
ninfan, classy as ever!
Just ignore the unpleasant troll. He only does it for a reaction to fill what must be quite a cavernous hole in his life. Don't respond and he'll go away, or eventually post something inflammatory enough to get himself banned for a long time. Again.
Yes, the majority of people who voted, voted for brexit. But nobody voted for a particular brexit
Just imagine if remain had won by less than 2% but suddenly that was seen as full endorsement of Schengen, the Euro, and a fully federalised Europe. I'm sure the leavers would have been just fine with that, coz "democracy"
It is telling that the most in depth definition of what Brexit means is Brexit.
It's not even must try harder that one.
Just imagine if remain had won by less than 2% but suddenly that was seen as full endorsement of Schengen, the Euro, and a fully federalised Europe. I’m sure the leavers would have been just fine with that, coz “democracy”
You mean like us voting to join the EEC in 1974 was seen as full endorsement of the EU expansionand the Maastricht & Lisbon treaties?
I suspect that a significant number of leave voters actually did so precisely because they believed a yes vote would ultimatley have led us unwillingly in to a fully federalised Europe - which has been the direction of travel for some years
and the concentrated effort by the remainers has been to ignore and/or attempt to overturn this by rabidly arguing against Brexit
There as many 'rabid' remainers as there are 'rabid' remainers. However on this thread we're not doing that. So thanks for that, your opinion is noted.