[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Why? We all know that the UK staying in is best not only for the UK but also for the rest of the EU.

canadian who helped Canada get their CETA deal on Brexit

A free trade agreement is like two parties are on either side of a river and are considering building a bridge across that river because they think it will be in their economic benefit. And that’s what the Ceta does. And I think it does provide for Canada and the EU real economic benefits.

What the UK situation with the EU right now is that that bridge has been there for 45 years. Communities have been built up on either side of it. There are buildings on the bridge. And [b]you are deciding what part of it you want to blow up without bankrupting yoursel[/b]f.

teamhurtmore - Member
I would be nice to imagine that their motives were altruistic

I know it’s in the interest of both sides - a major reason why I reject the more fanciful projections of doom that have characterised the past few hundred pages of this thread. What we are seeing now is that the EU is slowly adjusting itself to this reality too.

Are you claiming that RoW do not understand democracy either? Blimey, that’s more that I imagined

No we have just established you don't repeatedly.

You have to remember the Tories can do no wrong. So their approach to leaving the EU must be right.

Are you claiming that RoW do not understand democracy either?

HTH

You have to remember the Tories can do no wrong. So their approach to leaving the EU must be right.

In cougars spirit !!!

Mike no I simply recall that we have exercised the democratic process in two ways - a referendum and our representatives voted too. The latter more definitive than the former. There is no insistence, merely the exercise of a democratic mandate/decision that an undemocrstic minority cannot accept.

Our two major parties* who dominated the vote at the GE also BOTH advocate respecting the decision “repeatedly”. Odd that

* can be ignored if a member of the political myopia club. But that’s a minority I would imagibe

Our two major parties* who dominated the vote at the GE also BOTH advocate respecting the decision “repeatedly”. Odd that

There's nothing odd about it, the EU is as good as we can hope for a decent blend of capitalism and socialism.

Tory.. We hate socialism so will exit.

Corbyn.. We hate capitalism so will exit.

Both parties want the same result for completely incompatible reasons.

Complete pig headed logical fallacy.

I know it was a joke but there are some who don’t like winks. 😉

But you might see if the youth in the periphery of Europe agree with such a profound assumption.....

There is no insistence, merely the exercise of a democratic mandate/decision that an undemocrstic minority cannot accept.

The version where you go for a deal offered vs complete isolationism means the deal doesn't have to be very good to make it more attractive - a stupid negotiating position.

If you were offered the choice to vote on the deal with 3 options Stay/Leave/Jump would you vote leave regardless or would you engage your brain?

Remember more Brexites shuffle off every day, more remainers live and have to live through it all.

We have voted on remain already, if you recall.

But I see the hidden tactic there. Nice one. Do you think people might miss the sleight of hand there?

No "sleight of hand". Present a choice of membership or an alternative to the public and let them choose. They'll pick the alternative if they prefer it to membership. It should be possible to present a proposed alternative that would be voted for, shouldn't it?

It might be written in grown up though, as a summary something like tick here for unicorns.

Indeed Kelvin

“After we end our membership of the EU would you prefer to have:

1. On going access under the terms of a unique FTA
2. On going access under the terms of an existing deal
3. No deal - prefer to trade under WTO

[please note this is for advisory purposes only - in case we don’t get the result we want]”

Should be quite easy to vote for the sensible alternative. There is only one.

Why are we getting an extra option there? Is the EU going to offer us 2 options to stay?
Unique is the problem word here, DD losing it dropping his pants and shitting on the table would be a unique FTA.
The government is negotiation (accepting) with the EU for a deal. That is the deal they will present to parliament, in detail, none of the unique, bespoke BS the actual words and details giving parliament enough time to scrutinise it and make a decision.

It's already been sorted that there are 3 options at the end Stay, Leave, Swan Dive. If the Leave light is bad then the swan dive is worse. This is not a decision for a minority government to make.

[please note this is for advisory purposes only - in case we don’t get the result we want]

Well, If it's advisory, then a 50% threshold is fine. The options you provide would need "some" fleshing out. Not sure why you're ruling out our democracy changing its mind about membership though… can you explain why?

We have voted on remain already, if you recall

Have we really decided on leave though?

If I go out for drinks and get completely pished and slur to my mates I want to leave, and ask if they can they negotiate my pubexit, then to find myself slapped awake in the back of a cab in Siberia by a Bulgarian taxi driver looking for approx £350m for the fare, have I got what I wanted?

No! What I really wished for, but could not convey in my drunken stupor, was for a clean cab, not driven by a foreigner to take me to my comfortably safe home for the same it would have cost me if I walked.

the exercise of a democratic mandate/decision that an undemocrstic minority cannot accept

Its not difficult to grasp that both supporting it and opposing it are perfectly acceptable, and required options, within a democracy.

And what all this talk of mandates and final decisions?

Do I really need to post this picture, again? it seems so..

[img] [/img]

Do I really need to post this picture, again? it seems so..

We all know that the UK staying in is best not only for the UK but also for the rest of the EU.

Best for the EU most certainly

Not for the UK when you factor in lost global opportunities, overly expensive food imports (protective tariffs on products we don’t grow), overly burdensome irrelevant regulations, fully costed immigration, fully costed and transparent budget payments inc pensions and loans (paying the EU for their ability to sell us more than they sell us) ...

@tmh Swiss voted in a referendum to end FoM and the outgoing President has been very frustrated with the EU playing politics trying to link increased budget payments (they do like the money the EU) with technical issues like recognition of stock exchanges.

They also voted quite clearly to NEVER join the EU - if it was such a good thing surely they’d be champing at the bit to sign up for the whole thing ?

Not for the UK when you factor in lost global opportunities, overly expensive food imports (protective tariffs on products we don’t grow), overly burdensome irrelevant regulations, fully costed immigration, fully costed and transparent budget payments inc pensions and loans (paying the EU for their ability to sell us more than they sell us) ...

THM has his reasons for wanting it all to go ahead, not sure what they are but they are deeply held.

He respects the result (not the one he wanted)
He knows its not going to be reversed
He has a job to do and is paid to get on with dealing with what’s ahead

He does not “want it” to go ahead but he accepts that IS what is going to happen so he is dealing with it

Why is our democratic country not allowed to change its mind? I can understand why you'd be against that Jamba, but still don't get THM's reasons.

Best for the EU most certainly

Thanks for posting a great reason for staying in Jambalaya.

Don't you agree that a sense of selflessness feels good and invigorating?

Mike I have covered numerous examples in the past 1,200 pages

For example on the cost of regulations I posted a paper from Open Europe (pro EU group) entitled “Still out of control” 😯 they produced 7 years ago £170bn cost since 1998, plus they did another in 2015 which said fhe top 100 EU regulations alone cost Britain £33bn per anum

kelvin - Member
Why is our democratic country not allowed to change its mind?

plus they did another in 2015 which said fhe top 100 EU regulations alone cost Britain £33bn per anum

List the "costs"… ignore the benefits.
That also sums up the (brilliant) Leave campaign perfectly.

Don't you agree that a sense of selflessness feels good and invigorating?

I prefer that sense of selflessness to be focused firstly on my fellow British citizens and secondly the UK is one of the most generous countries in the world regarding foreign aid.

fhe top 100 EU regulations alone cost Britain £33bn per anum

Yes you are posting costs with no explanation or reference to their value, you ignore the value of trade with the EU and how it has helped the UK over the years, you ignore the benefits of negotiating from a bigger position and things like the positive impact immigration is having in Scotland at the moment. Or what the cost of setting up parallel bodies in the UK will be to replicate things we only had to pay a fraction of before.

As the saying goes some know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

the EU is as good as we can hope for a decent blend of capitalism and socialism.

I prefer that sense of selflessness to be focused firstly on my fellow British citizens

If the guy next door to me is a Polish rather than a British citizen, I do not make him a lower "priority".

[i][ I should probably have used Portuguese or French as my example, just for you Jamba ][/i]

It seems that some are super massive black holes when it comes to reasons.
I predict that someone will question the existence of super massive black holes on account that no one has ever been in one and come out again to confirm this.

if they think it plays fair with regards to trade with the some of the poorest countries on earth

Have you looked at which countries the EU/CU has unilaterally low or zero tariffs for? Have you heard of the "everything but arms" agreements for the poorest countries?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everything_but_Arms

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/development/generalised-scheme-of-preferences/index_en.htm

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/how-the-eu-starves-africa/

I've said it before and looks like I'll have to say it again.Ask the African nations what they think of the EU if they think it plays fair with regards to trade with the some of the poorest countries on earth.I know some on here love their Guardian links but can't recall any of the "lefties" posting this
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/28/the-european-union-is-an-ongoing-disaster-for-africa

Western countries have been taking advantage of Africa and South America since before I was born.
There is nothing lefty about that, it's domination.

The EU is at least trying to move in a good direction with fair trade, rights, protecting the environment etc.

Leaving the EU would leave us just as knackered and exposed, as the Donald would say "some shit hole Country".

Contemplate that for a while.

http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/how-the-eu-starves-africa/

Yes, CAP favours our own food production over that of developing (and other developed) nations. Good job that we (the UK) have make plenty of progress at reducing CAP spending… and I'm sure, as members, would keep pushing for a continual, gradual, reduction in the CAP budget. Also (see my links) we give developing nations preferential treatment as regards tariffs. Read about GSP+, EBA etc. All interesting (and one of hundreds of things I didn't know about how the EU works back in 2016 when I voted).

I prefer that sense of selflessness to be focused firstly on my fellow British citizens and secondly the UK is one of the most generous countries in the world regarding foreign aid.

On the first point, I am delighted to differ from you, and certainly will not argue. Please keep reposting it.

On the second point. We are generous with regards to foreign aid. We are also still in the EU. I don't know Brexiters in any real numbers that wish to see an increase of foreign aid. Show me that is the trend, or please don't denigrate foreign aid from jumping on that bandwagon. I get a sense of your opinion of foreign aid towards Eastern Europe for example. They are foreigners after all. They don't drink magnums of Tattinger, or seek 10% share dividends like you or I so they must be different.

Also, although countries in Africa may feel aggrieved by the EU, if they think a Brexit vote will somehow consolidate support for their sorrows within the UK and thus show an increase in financial assistance from us, they are as deluded as those that believed Farage when he said that leaving the EU would give all UK citizens "long pieces of bent string."

Brexiter Britain!

[url= https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/904976/UK-foreign-aid-Penny-Mordaunt-Brexit-news/amp ]Countries should look after themselves[/url]

Brexit supporting Tory Penny Mordaunt saying countries should look after themselves. Great advert for foreign aid I think.

I might be biased as my wife had to head out in dangerous driving conditions of deep snow toaday with a Polish born colleague to deliver palliative nursing care to rural communities. They felt like they were in the trenches together, and certainly not looking after themselves. I suppose my wife should be doing that on her own?

May coughs up another £45m to add to the Brexit bill just to keep the border at Calais.

With Brexit already costing us estimated £350m a week in lost growth, it's just not much but I'd rather it'd been spent on the NHS for example.

Just an aspiration though kimbers, yeah? Let us do that!

I prefer that sense of selflessness to be focused firstly on my fellow British citizens

Why?

What the **** difference does it make it someone in need is British or Somalian? Seriously?

I prefer that sense of selflessness to be focused firstly on my fellow British citizens

You are an example to us all in putting Britain first

You are an example to us all in putting Britain first

😆
Just subtle enough...

What the **** difference does it make it someone in need is British or Somalian?

A lot of difference to a racist person.

UK: We want a unicorn
EU: We don't do unicorns. None of us have unicorns, There are no unicorns.

UK: But we promised unicorns and the people have spoken. We want unicorns
EU: That's not really our problem. There are no unicorns

UK: You're being unreasonable. We demand unicorns
EU: There are no unicorns

UK: You are bullying us with your outrageous demands!
EU: Eh? We just said there are no unicorns because... well... there are no unicorns.

UK: OK! We get your game. You're stalling! We're prepared to walk away without a unicorn you know! (Thinks: that'll show'em)
EU: There are no unicorns.

UK: You bastards! Nigel was right. You're out to destroy us. We'll go and speak to Donald instead. HE has unicorns!
EU: Errrrrmmm, there ARE no unicorns.

UK: That does it. This is our final position. We want unicorns...right now... gold plated... fluent in greek....ermmm.... or we're off!
EU: Are you still here? There are no unicorns.

UK: DAMMIT! What about a packet of crisps then?
EU: Sorry we're busy.

Macron

Please allow me to be very clear. I’m here neither to punish nor to reward. I want to make sure that the single market is preserved because that is very much at the heart of the European Union.

So the choice is on the British side, not on my side. They can have [b]no differentiated access to financial services[/b]. If you want access to the single market, including the financial services, be my guest. But it means that you need to contribute to the budget and acknowledge European jurisdiction. Such are the rules and we know this is the system already in place for Norway.

[b]If you want a trade access, it will cover everything, but then it is not full access to the single market and to financial services. Otherwise it’s closer to the situation of Canada[/b]. We have some trade agreements which allow access to all services, be they financial or others, access as well to any industry sector, but not the same level of relationship as if you were a member of the single market. And there shall be no hypocrisy in this respect, otherwise it will not work. Or we would destroy the single market and its coherence.

So, its’s simple. I would not want to exclude any sector in the trade agreement to come. The negotiations will be led by Michel Barnier. But it does not mean that the access it will allow will be equivalent to [being] a member of the single market. Otherwise you can choose between Norway, or being the equivalent of a current member of the European Union.

From Labour MP Austin Mitchell, could not have put it better myself 😉 (he makes the same points I have been making for a year)

http://brexitcentral.com/time-britain-toughen-brexit-negotiations/

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jan/18/brexit-blow-as-satellite-monitoring-centre-moves-from-uk-to-spain

Great to see we are shipping out more of this unwanted EU bureaucracy. Give back control!

jambalaya - Member
From Labour MP Austin Mitchell

From Austin Mitchell's article…

The latter would mean an unhappy frustrated electorate forced to endure a relationship it doesn’t like.

This is pretty much guaranteed. No one has outlined a (single) new relationship that "the electorate" would prefer, and vote for, over membership.

@athgray the best way to help the developing world is though trade, e.g. remove the barriers on coffee imports put in place to protect German roasters (coffee beans are cheap to import to EU, roasted coffee faces high tariffs), remove high tariffs placed on clothes and footwear, remove high tariffs on agricultural products we don't produce (e.g. tinned peaches) etc etc

Junkyard it's the wife that most wants to go to Portugal not me, I do have friends who have done it and are encouraging us. Even if we retire there we'll not spend more than 4 months a year there would be my guess. Bizarre thing is with Schengen no one will know where are within Europe or for how long.

TJ is it quite illuminating how you take everything the EU, Macron etc say as factual but disagree with everything may and the Tories have to say. By the way Macron said during the French election he was going to cancel the Le Touquet agreement and draw up a new one. NOT. Macron is still under the illusion financial services are going to relocate to Paris, however with astronomical taxes and labour laws making it difficult to fire people he has zero chance of success. Most who are making a move will do so to Germany to be close to the centre of economic power and/or to cheaper jurisdictions like Ireland or Malta (Lloyds Insurance business). Also financial services are just a small proportion of our services business (29% I recall the figure is) and the vast majority of those business flows are not related to the EU at all. It is EU companies that are coming to London to borrow money, if they don't come to London they get no dosh.

My new shoes cost £7.33 from Decathlon. I don't want to go back to tinned peaches… I remember the late 1970s.

Was 30% a day or two ago. At this rate they'll be gone by brexit day anyway 🙂

Jamba - its because all the major players in the EU say the same thing and its very clear what is possible and what is not. NOne of Mays fantasies have any basis in truth. the simple fact is the UK cannot have finacial services in the EU without being a part of the EU and being under the ECJ

27 coutries say one thing. the leaders of the mainpolitical groups in the EU say the same thing. The EU president says the same thing. The EU negotiating team all agree.

May wants something that allthe above players have ruled out categorically and that would in some cases be against EU law

the finacial servies are already moving out.

Yet you believe what May wants will happen

Why do you keep on claiming things that are categorically ruled out and that are demonstrably false.

Macron needs to do his homework

So the choice is on the British side, not on my side. They can have no differentiated access to financial services. If you want access to the single market, including the financial services, be my guest. But it means that you need to contribute to the budget and acknowledge European jurisdiction. Such are the rules and we know this is the system already in place for Norway.

Why chose Norway when making a point about financial services?? Drunk or merely confused?

Why would one of Frances largest banks be increasing investment in the U.K. now?

A total crock

UK cannot have finacial services in the EU without being a part of the EU and being under the ECJ

😯

Why do you keep on claiming things that are categorically ruled out and that are demonstrably false.

Is an excellent question to ask widely

Bizarre thing is with Schengen no one will know where are within Europe or for how long

TJ, you are forgetting that TNUMTWNT. Apparently some people still believe this, or pretend to.

Thm is it to capitalise on the disruption of Brexit to gain market share in UK corporate and investment banking and because many corporates have noticed that there is less of a choice of banking partners, especially of those who are very well placed locally but who also really can act in Europe... So like good business practice they will make money as others suffer the chaos?

I know that.

But that missed a rather important point re reciprocity

TNUMTWNT

Eh?

They Need Us More Than We Need Them

I have a proposal, every one wants brexit should pay for it and have thier passports annulled, seeing as that's what they want.
That should free up enough cash for the rest of us to carry on as we are.

Everyone's a winner.

unfortunately the only person I knew at BNP parisbas who I could ask, we arrested so you'll have to expand on your usual clues as to what's going on in thm's brain 😉

Excellent from Tom Bell. 😆

[url= https://s18.postimg.org/puzbxuio9/4_EE90_F9_C-2_D6_A-438_E-8_B3_A-7_E98_C032_D16_B.jp g" target="_blank">https://s18.postimg.org/puzbxuio9/4_EE90_F9_C-2_D6_A-438_E-8_B3_A-7_E98_C032_D16_B.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

[quote=jambalaya ]From Labour MP Austin Mitchell, could not have put it better myself (he makes the same points I have been making for a year)
> http://brexitcentral.com/time-britain-toughen-brexit-negotiations/
br />

Let me paraphrase that for you: "we should demand unicorns"

I'm not sure if you think it's a big revelation that that's exactly how you think - it's standard Brexiteer delusional stuff, and you've made it clear enough over the last 1200 odd pages that's the philosophy you subscribe to.

I hope Jambalaya is watching french news channel tonight , lots of Brexit talks .
Even the english journalists are taking the piss out of TM . 😆

Austin Mithelo being quoted as if he made any sense? the guy is a proven nompty

and what about the increase spending in Calais and TM saying the UK will accept more immigrants ??

I thought that France will have to pay for the border , another red line turning pink ish ........

[quote=tjagain ]UK: You bastards! Nigel was right. You're out to destroy us. We'll go and speak to Donald instead. HE has unicorns!
EU: Errrrrmmm, there ARE no unicorns.

UK: Donnie, can we have some unicorns please?
Donnie: We have the best unicorns, the best. Making unicorns great again!
EU: There are no unicorns, you don't have any unicorns Mr Trump.
Donnie: Fake news. Sad.

another red line turning pink

Possibly too crass? Mods Feel free to delete if nessesary.

Kilo. My brain sticks to very simple things

Hence I read what people actually say rather than sifting through what others claim they say including what the EU thinks would happen to EU Fis activities in the UK in the event of a no deal that the foolhardy might expect. It comes in the first few pages of their briefing paper.

BNP are not muppets and they will have sounded out the powers that be re likely outcomes. Hence their actions this week are an important clue about what the French really expect. Unsurprisingly they are not alone

Smart folk are capable of dealing with the shades of grey that lie between black and white. ‘‘Twas ever thus.

Yeah and stupid folk will riot when they don’t get their unicorns. ‘‘Twas ever thus. Hope you’re hoping for a cold wet summer.

teamhurtmore - Member

BNP are not muppets

Yes they are.

No like the negotiations I am hoping for the best (while preparing for the worst)

Odd to hope for nasty things

"Cold wet summer" comment was clearly related to "riots", which no one wants (although some threaten).

I would not hope for either.

But if people keep exaggerating things I guess it could happen. Who needs responsible people?

Given today's "Brexit means more custom costs and an agreed increase in immigration" news, I think we all do.