[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The percentage that would vote to leave next time would be very much bigger than it was last time round. And we may just finish the whole thing off.

'like'
( above from farage if not clear ).
so shall we say 65% for leave swings it then? if they got that i would just accept it.

I don't think Farage, Gove, Johnson et al ever expected or wanted to win.

But a new referendum would be a poison chalice for Tory & Labour ... what would they campaign for?

As for a result, that may well be down to last time's abstainers pitching in, and the young coming out in force.

But the red tops are still for leave.

Very hard to call.

I'm pretty sure Farage wants us out of the EU (and the EU taken apart). He wanted to win.

Farage and Gove wanted to aggrandise themselves with their party members, bring UKIPers back to their party, gain personal power, keep their party in power, and also use a narrow loss as leverage to even further improve our exceptional position within the EU. That's my take anyway.

I agree Kelvin. There's no doubt that Farage and his UKIP loons want to leave the EU and hope that one of the biggies leaving will hasten a break-up by encouraging Pexit, etc., emboldening the Far Right in Austria, France, Germany, Holland to destabilise the progressive social democratic consensus that has built up over the last few decades.

As for Gove, Johnson and other Tory Brexiteers etc. I dunno, I think some of them [i]want[/i] to leave, thinking that a cake-and-eat-it-because-TNUMTWNT was possible but are finding that increasingly difficult to deliver, but also realising that had there been a remain vote, they could happily live with that because WOTP while still flinging poo at Brussels whenever they fancied.

[i]For Remainers the harsh reality that underlies Farage’s confidence is that while the costs of non-membership are becoming clearer there is still no strong narrative as to the tangible benefits of membership. That was a problem in 2016 and it still is.[/i]

I think this is part of the issue. There's no argument and no one (bar Adonis) really putting one forward.

With Corbyn pro-hard brexit there really isn't a voice from the centre or left or anyone with charisma who can put an argument for staying beyond the old 'project fear' (albeit with rather more substance behind it now).

Gove wanted to aggrandise themselves with their party members

I got the impression Gove really is against the EU and would want out. Probably even if it did him political harm.
Boris on the other hand was just an opportunist who saw it as the best gain for him.

For Farage I am not completely convinced. I think he likes seeing himself as a plucky rebel rather than the career politician that he is and would probably have liked to keep in that mode. Hence why he still pops up throwing shit around.

Has he realised he is about to lose his MEP job?

Messy idiot again…

[s]Farage[/s] [b]Boris [/b]and Gove wanted to aggrandise themselves with their party members…

Sorry.

Has he realised he is about to lose his MEP job?

Perhaps, tho regardless he gets to keep his £78k annual EU pension and his kids can have EU passports of course as their mother is German. My daughter on the other hand has the "good fortune" to be English going back multiple generations. Thx for that, our Nige.

Ha! ( with apologies to Mike Skinner ) I'm 45th generation Roman. that's got to count for something?

Yes - I'm Norman so you have 700+ years advantage on me.

Bloody incomers.

kelvin - Member

I'm pretty sure Farage wants us out of the EU (and the EU taken apart). He wanted to win.

I think Farage likes his fantasy brexit. I don't think he much likes any of the real brexits available though, and he certainly won't like being held to account for any of it.

But another round of campaigns and another referendum, that'd suit him very nicely. Stir up some shit, get on the telly, have loads of people tell him how great he is, maybe get someone shot.

(tho maybe I should try again for that French passport!)

the Normans were vikings though.

Norway! result!

He wants back into UKIP that's all. Referendum, he can get in and take over the campaign. Lose, he stays on to "fight the cause".

the Normans were vikings though

Were we? Result!

I'm off for a bit of pillaging at Rumbleow's & Oddbins! Need a new TV & I've run out of Malibu..

Being originally from the north of Scotland I'm 33% viking, 33% sheep, 33% my own grandpa

Were we? Result!

Absolutely. Norman = Norseman.

Hard as nails us.

Except I'm, errr, now a middle-aged middle class computer guy from Surrey who never won a fight in his life. Oh.

I'm 65% ( or something) Sami. NO idea how. Most of the rest is german or french

Farage is just going in for some attention seeking, I guess he’s only been on Question Time 3 times this year or something.

A referendum on whether or not we should have a second referendum should be held.

💡 😀

For Remainers the harsh reality that underlies Farage’s confidence is that while the costs of non-membership are becoming clearer there is still no strong narrative as to the tangible benefits of membership. That was a problem in 2016 and it still is.

100% and “our” (ok the remoaner) reaction has been to abuse and bully leavers and to make things up to scare people again. The stupidity of not learning from history.

Such an approach almost allowed the BS brigade to win in the Indy vote and did allow them to win the brexit vote. And then there is the US

Without a major change the result would not be turned around. But having said that it is a hard sell 😉 still if you fail to learn mistakes from history...

TBH if we had a 2nd vote, if it did still say leave I think I could accept that, the lies and the bullshit is largely gone now - no, it won’t mean a better economy, no we can’t tell the EU to ‘do one’, yes it will cost a lot of money to leave and no the US isn’t about the throw their arms open and let us export our good to them tarrif free and no there’s no extra money for the NHS, which is a shame for the leave campaign as it’s their core dying of Aussie Flu in corridors.

If after all that, the majority of voters still think Blue passports are worth it, then I guess we’ve got to accept it.

Oh if we do have another vote it would be nice if Labour could knock pretectionist Corbyn off his perch.

So would Jezza come out the closet and would May get back in it?

Not that we need another BS referendum to add to the uncertainty but the scenarios as amusing nonetheless

IMO..
If the Tories came clean and told us what a shitshow Brexit is, actually really promised to fix the NHS.. called an election and a 2nd referendum on Brexit..

They'd totally clean up.

What we really need is something actually representative. Like using voting for MPs who can truly represent our opinions, which are assessed on the impact of staying or leaving, letting those in charge make the sensible decision on what's best for the country based on all the boring tedious legalities and economics, rather than emotive decisions by a portion of the British public who have no idea whatsoever with no genuine facts at hand.

General election, whichever can offer to fix(ish) the country first and then look the practicalities of Brexit in the future if and when we're ready. That's what the referendum should have been and technically was in the first place. An advisory to look into Brexit, not blindly jump off a cliff.

The money saved by putting Brexit on the back burner could do a hell of a lot for the NHS. Though there's more to it than that as the concept of full public social care for everyone is flawed in the modern age. It's not practical for the state to entirely fund it any more.

MPs are "far from confident" that HM Revenue and Customs can deal with the tax avoidance allegations made in the wake of the Paradise Paper leaks.

The public accounts committee said the department would also struggle to deal with the pressure of Brexit and its own internal changes.

HMRC believes Brexit alone could add 15% to its workload, the report said.

The department says it has secured billions tackling tax avoidance and is focused on making Brexit a success.

HMRC is undertaking 15 major transformation projects, according to the MPs' report, involving the closure of offices around the country, relocating staff to 13 regional centres and and making tax returns digital.

Though there's more to it than that as the concept of full public social care for everyone is flawed in the modern age. It's not practical for the state to entirely fund it any more.

Of course it is practical. The money is easily obtained and the majority of tax payers would see it as money well spent. All about priorities.

Anyone catch Question Time last night? Just saw a few minutes where the odious Piers Morgan was trying to get Labour MP to answer a simple question on whether Labour would stay in single market. She couldn't answer....just trotted out crap about "a Brexit for jobs" and how Labour would negotiate some fantasy deal

yes they lack the clarity of vision of the tories 😉

Both parties are divided on the issue , we all know this.

Though there's more to it than that as the concept of full public social care for everyone is flawed in the modern age. It's not practical for the state to entirely fund it any more.

given that state provided healthcare is cheaper than private healthcare and it all has to be paid for somehow are you really suggesting its better we each pay £x for full state care or £x+20% for private care?

well someone has to make a profit and so what if its ill people [ who also tend to be poorer] who are paying to make the rich richer

Though there's more to it than that as the concept of full public social care for everyone is flawed in the modern age. It's not practical for the state to entirely fund it any more.

Irrelevant of party I see the NHS and associated social care as the biggest achievement of any modern British government.

It has improved the lives of more people in this country that any other single initiative.

It's for those reasons I think it is an utter tragedy to see it being driven into the ground, set up to fail in preparation for full privatisation.

It's the one thing money should go to by default before the likes of nukes and aircraft carriers are even considered.

whether Labour would stay in single market.

Constructive ambiguity innit! A luxury of opposition, for now....

Caught the tail end of Farrage on BBC News earlier prattling on about another referendum on Brexshite.. says he'd support it.

Ties in nicely with the other evenings Party Political Broadcast by the Tories..

Definitely another referendum or gen election on the way.

Clearly the Tories are shitting themselves, and as proven have absolutely no clue how to run a) the country and b) themselves and c) brexshite but they are very proficient at a) lying in parliament b) wasting "company" paid time scanning Porn sites c) getting interns to go Sex Toys shopping for them and d) ramming their private parts in Pigs Heads.

Bring it on, most brexiters are dead behind the ears. A great deal of them are dead by now too.

Twodogs - Member

Anyone catch Question Time last night? Just saw a few minutes where the odious Piers Morgan was trying to get Labour MP to answer a simple question on whether Labour would stay in single market. She couldn't answer....just trotted out crap about "a Brexit for jobs" and how Labour would negotiate some fantasy deal

Obviously she should have done what the Tories do and just said "this is what we want and we'll definitely get it"

TBF all labour have to do right now is avoid brexit questions, and either point at the tories dealing with it and laugh, or ask them pointed questions about the shitshow that the nhs appears to be right now.
they don't have to have a coherent position on anything very much when the tories are running out of their own feet to shoot.

It has improved the lives of more people in this country that any other single initiative.

But yes, I agree, the NHS is the jewel in the crown of (what's left of) our democracy.

Some people might vote labour irrespective of how incoherent and incomplete their policies appear to be but I won’t.

Eh, don't forget civil engineering! Sewers and potable water supplies were the first step.

Romans wasn’t it 🙂

and what happens to the NHS when Carillion goes under, or will the Tories find some more money on the Magic money tree to throw another bung?

Does anyone think the Tories can actually pull Brexit off with out crashing out completely? That they are still polling at 40% really says something about the Labour party.

It's the one thing money should go to by default before the likes of nukes and aircraft carriers are even considered.

NHS budget about £130bn, from memory. Defence budget about £35bn.

airtragic - plus the amount for the nukes. so the NHS needs about 20% more dosh. thats less than the defense budget and far less if you include the useless nukes

schadenfreude - I love it. It couldn't happen to a nicer man

Nigel Farage is being docked half his monthly MEP salary after a European parliament investigation alleged he had misspent public funds intended for staffing his office.

The former Ukip leader, who recently bemoaned being “53, separated and skint”, will lose €40,000 (£35,500) in total, the Guardian has learned, after European parliament auditors concluded he had misspent that amount of EU funds.

airtragic - plus the amount for the nukes. so the NHS needs about 20% more dosh. thats less than the defense budget and far less if you include the useless nukes

schadenfreude - I love it. It couldn't happen to a nicer man

Awesome

Farage has the right to appeal at the European court of justice.

Bit of a quandary. 🙂

The flats/clips poll currently stands at 52% flats.

Just saying.

Well, they do take back control as opposed to leaving the user locked into an overpriced machine.

[quote=thecaptain ]Some people might vote labour irrespective of how incoherent and incomplete their policies appear to be but I won’t.

Some people continue to vote conservative irrespective of how incoherent and incomplete they demonstrate themselves to be but I won’t.

If Farage / UKIP have broken the rules then the EU should recover the money. They are trying to get something €500,000 back from Le Pen. It does smack of politics and sour hraoes as the EU admits it looses €6 billion pa to fraud and Junket et all won’t provide receipts for expensies as it’s too dodfixult (paper copies only) and too controverisal (ie the row over “air taxis” is a distraction !!!!)

That Cambridge Econometris / Kahn “analysis” was total garbage. I waded trhough 40 of the 86 pages and it’s so biased to Remainiaca it’s ridiculous. Just Osbourne Mark 2. Once again wrotten for headlines with liberal use of the work “could” amd with a “worst case scenario” of WTO only, no deal at all with the EU of any kind nor anybody else.

Toally intellectually worthless

Remainiaca

Ooh...genius! Not seen that one!

Almost as clever as remoaner

Another vote for flats, but I suspect if it were a real vote rather than just a poll clips would win, it's embarassing to admit you ride clips to a pollster but in the safety of a voting booth you don't have to worry about being unenlightened.

Jambs you were in favour of the WTO option, you've repeatedly said so, suddenly it's a worst case scenario?

Remainiaca

Toally intellectually worthless

I think Labour might be in for a shock if there's a GE..

Thier surge in popularity in the last GE can be easily explained..

A lot of Liberal Democrats, including myself voted Labour purely to prevent a tory majority, also a lot of students and young people voted Labour as they thought Labour were more about doing the best for the good of the country, and it's since become apparent that corbyn is so anti EU he whipped his MPs into propping up the tory agenda at the cost of everything else.

What a kerfuffle.

also a lot of students and young people voted Labour as they thought Labour were more about doing the best for the good of the country

Or at least those with liberal leaning refused to vote liberal because of the supposed broken promise on tuition fees (promise they could never achieve in a coalition). They were unlikely to vote Tory either except the Oxbridge types and members of young Tory groups, so it's Labour or beers down the student union and screw voting.

Grown ups better get on with it.

[url= https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/2017-12-11-notice-to-stakeholders-road-transport.pdf ]Notice to stake holders road transport [/url]

Funny but our driving licenses aren’t going to be valid like the good old days, only for holidays 🙁

“Vamos” el £

Does anyone think the Tories can actually pull Brexit off with out crashing out completely

FFS they can’t even tweet the new deputy pms name correctly 🙂

Yes.

Ok non- consensus but May may 😉 just pull it off

Slowly but surely both sides are starting to see some sense - Spanish and Dutch

Imagine a woman with a track record of screwing things up finally surprises everyone.

Imagine a woman with a track record of screwing things up finally surprises everyone

Are you trying to say May influenced them

Her nonshuffle was a great reminder of how much of a passenger she is

Why knows perhaps nos amis are relieved to have a less confrontational woman to deal with and in true misogynistic fashion end up underestimating her

Early days but so far she is ahead of most expectations. Hence the increasingly fantastical moaning going on

Early days but so far she is ahead of most expectations

does this mean if I'm expecting a complete ****ing shambles, only a partial shambles can be claimed as a success.

might try that at work. underpromise and overdeliver and all that.

the EU said what they wanted and she said yes , not hard is it ?

the EU said what they wanted and [s]she [/s] a grownup said yes , not hard is it ?

Does anyone think the Tories can actually pull Brexit off with out crashing out completely

FFS they can’t even tweet the new deputy pms name correctly

Oh the irony I really meant party chairman.

Ok non- consensus but May may just pull it off

I wouldn’t rush to attribute success to her.

Crashing out wont do anyone any favours as the EU would have to do something with the NI border and I doubt they really want to get embroiled in that.

She’ll just agree to us paying a yearly fee for associate eu non affiliated access and there will be some cleverly phrased access to the market granted.

(The eu will be the people having their cake and eating it.)

the EU said what they wanted and she said yes , not hard is it ?

Don’t forget it’s took 18 Months to say yes...

Might as well have agreed way earlier but I suppose when your making it up on the fly you plod on hoping something might happen.

Early days but so far she is ahead of most expectations

I assume May? Actually she has fallen far short of my expectations for her. I thought she hasd the personal strength to deal with folk like Gove, Hut and Johnson. I was wrong. she has done a far worse job than I thought she would do. I thought she would salvage somethig out of the mess. She hasn't and now cannot.

Fallen so short that she delivered many of the things deemed impossible by remoaners.

On top of that the economy has outperformed expectations too and manufacturing rebounding.

Good that some have been getting on with life instead of moaning and advocating economic sabotage.

she delivered many of the things deemed impossible by remoaners.

underpromise and overdeliver and all that.

Aim to totally **** it up and only mostly **** it up?

Fallen so short that she delivered many of the things deemed impossible by remoaners.

I thought nothing was agreed until everything was agreed?

I thought the stupid ****ing bitch would have killed herself by now, so yes she has exceeded my expectations.

A lot of Liberal Democrats, including myself voted Labour purely to prevent a tory majority, also a lot of students and young people voted Labour as they thought Labour were more about doing the best for the good of the country, and it's since become apparent that corbyn is so anti EU he whipped his MPs into propping up the tory agenda at the cost of everything else.

This.

Caught the tail end of Farrage on BBC News earlier prattling on about another referendum on Brexshite.. says he'd support it.

Having failed miserably to ingratiate himself with Trump, he's popped up back on this side of the pond for some more self-publicising shite.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jan/12/referendum-ii-farage-brexit-steve-bannon

I thought the stupid **** bitch would have killed herself by now, so yes she has exceeded my expectations.

Classy

Liam Fox is currently banging the drum for Britain across the globe as other nations beat a path to his door to secure trade deals with post-Brexit Britain

I do love a bit of Sun what with the exit stamp campaign in full flight.

I thought she would salvage somethig out of the mess. She hasn't and now cannot.