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Mrs Egf is/was a nurse (& had to pay a registration fee of £120 per year ?)
Anyway, she's was very ill in the summer of 2017 & spent 6 weeks (+ another 3 weeks later) in the hospital she works at. A lot of staff & nurses there are from India, mainly Kerala or Goa, & while i was in there visiting Sue I got chatting to most of them in general, & often asked how they thought Brexit would would affect them if at all. None of them were even slightly perplexed at the idea!
Another excellent nurse (David, from Winsconsin, daft as a lighthouse cat but a fantastic at his job) just laughed when I mentioned Brexit & said 'who cares, I'm a stayin!' (he'd just bought a house in Harrogate)
So, are we just talking about European workers or does no-one else matter?
There is no staffing crisis.
Brexit is not going to make it worse.
The NHS will not be damaged by Brexit.
Sleep well, and enjoy your private health cover Leave cheerleaders.
Classic moaning. When caught misrepresenting your own facts (sic), misrepresent what others are saying too. Bravo.
Sleep well
“City of dreams....”
esselgruntfuttock
Its only EU nurses affected by brexit and they have voted with their feet. this is not a prediction. What was a positive supply of nurses from the EU has turned into a net loss of nurses. This is hard fact.
Well, it wastes less time than trying to nail jelly to a wall.Bravo.
Its only EU nurses affected by brexit and they have voted with their feet. this is not a prediction. What was a positive supply of nurses from the EU has turned into a net loss of nurses. This is hard fact.
Thanks TJ.
*books trip to India to do some recruiting*
So is Europe not the only continent in the world that the NHS can recruit from? (or can we get staff from the other 6 continents?)
Bemused of North Yorkshire.
Its harder to recruit from other countries. aus , NZ and us pay thier nurses more so not many of them willcome here. India sub continent nurses need to be retrained, fillipino nurses IIRC the same. visas are complex and expensive to get for non eu nurses. so yes we can recruit from other places than the EU but its much more difficult and expensive and the quality of staff is not so good as their training is less.
Its only EU nurses affected by brexit and they have voted with their feet. this is not a prediction. What was a positive supply of nurses from the EU has turned into a net loss of nurses. This is hard fact.
Not according to NHS England figures, number of EU nurses has gone up.
If it was the language test that was putting EU registrants off coming to the UK why is there no significant drop in non eu nurses?
We have a significant fall in EU nurses, no significant change of ROW nurses
Clear evidence of brexit affecting the nhs adversly.
mefty - Member
Its only EU nurses affected by brexit and they have voted with their feet. this is not a prediction. What was a positive supply of nurses from the EU has turned into a net loss of nurses. This is hard fact.
Not according to NHS England figures, number of EU nurses has gone up.
NOpe - that is bollox from cherry picking numbers. Look at the NMC links that shows a huge fall in registrations of 95%.
The number of people from the EEA on the register [b]has decreased by 2733 [/b]between September 2016 and September 2017. 1107 people from the EEA joined the register this year,[b] a decrease of 89 percent[/b] from the previous year, when 10,178 people from the EEA joined the register. The number of people joining the register[b] from the EEA decreased sharply [/b]in the last year, and the number of EEA nurses and midwives [b]leaving the register increased by 67 percent[/b] from 2435 last year to 4067 this year.
No it is the official NHS numbers sourced from their spreadsheets all linked on the previous page comparing actual numbers as at June 2017 to June 2016 - just comparison of absolutes.
NOpe - look at the NMC links for the real facts.
YOu are comparing total NHS workforce ie cleaners and porters whereas I am quoting figues for [b]nurses [/b]in the UK
The rise in EU workers in the UK is down to an increase in the non registered staff. the registered nurses from the EU has dropped by 95% in a year.
Indisputable fact. stop conflating all NHS staff with registered nurses
Mefty - I cannot find any source in your links to the make up of NHS nuring staff by country of origin - link to the bit you think disproves the NMC? remember the NMC is the regulator. they hold files on every nurse in the UK
so yes we can recruit from other places than the EU but its much more difficult and expensive and the quality of staff is not so good as their training is less.
I wouldn't say that about Jolie, Susan, Gladys, Thomas, Owen & 2 others who's names I don't recall. All from Kerala/Goa working on ITU (staff nurses & upwards)
Don't recall ANY staff nurses on any of the wards Sue was on being from the EU, although ALL the cleaning staff were.
(just been reminded that a nurse called Luda was EU, & very good too)
The NHS can't recruit UK staff with zilch training never mind refreshing non EU nurses.
Essel - they will have been retrained to UK standards ( if needed - its not always needed dependent on country)
Total NMC registrations are 690,000, total number of nurses in NHS England are less than half of that number so big gap between registrations and actual people doing the job.
My experience from working in the NHS is that EU nurses tend to be ok. NOn eu nurses are either good or awful. I have recently worked with two non eu nurses who are frankly dangerous - the worst I have ever seen. As a visitor you don't see the whole story but without overseas nurses both eu and non eu the nhs would collapse
mefty - MemberTotal NMC registrations are 690,000, total number of nurses in NHS England are less than half of that number so big gap between registrations and actual people doing the job.
NBope - you forget the non nhs workforce which is of similar size ( care homes, agencies, non nhs hospitals). very few people and almost no overseas nurses will pay £120 a year and go thru a very time consuming process to retain registrations if not working and a loss in the total nursing workforce nhs or non nhs impacts on the NHS by creating shoratages
also you are confusing england and UK
If you want to debate this stuff you need to learn a fair bit more
I am not confusing anything, I have been quite clear I have been looking at NHS England data as that is freely available and well presented and quite clearly shows despite all the scare stories the number of nurses from the EU has gone up in the last year. It is all in the data, just follow the links.
I haven't looked at the facts Mefty but as my Mrs has said, recruitment for NHS nurses/staff has dropped dramatically in the last few years (don't need 'facts' when your'e a nurse do you?
However, as I implied, there were more non EU staff (from India) working in the hospital the Mrs Egf worked in/was a patient in, than EU staff.
*I agree/understand that this may be a different situation in other parts of the country.*
mefty - MemberI am not confusing anything, I have been quite clear I have been looking at NHS England data as that is freely available and well presented and quite clearly shows despite all the scare stories the number of nurses from the EU has gone up in the last year. It is all in the data, just follow the links
mefty - MemberTotal NMC registrations are 690,000, total number of nurses in NHS England are less than half of that number so big gap between registrations and actual people doing the job.
Well why then do you muddle up nurses on the register UK wide with nurses working for NHS england? ONly half of the nurses in the UK work in the NHS in england
If you are not confused over this you are deliberately obscuring the simple fact that the number of EU nurses joining the register has dropped from plus 800 a month to minus 350 a month.
So financial services. Another place where brexit is causing huge damage.
According to Jamba above a deal is being done and the UKs financial services are going to be unaffected. Why then have Davies and Hammond been begging cap in hand to Germany?
Philip Hammond and David Davis have made a direct appeal to German business leaders to help them forge a Brexit deal to secure the future of Britain’s financial services.The chancellor and Brexit secretary travel to Germany on Wednesday on a charm offensive they hope will shift the EU’s implacable opposition to services being included in a final deal.
Useless gesture. Germany has made it clear that they will not break ranks and Germany is well placed to take financial services jobs - indeed many have gone there already.
No chance of a deal on financial services
Their trip comes just weeks after the[b] EU warned that a deal involving the City of London was not on the table[/b] as long as the UK insisted on exiting the single market.
Britain’s decision to leave the EU has already caused havoc in the financial services sector with thousands of jobs in corporate banking, asset management and insurance being moved to Frankfurt, Luxembourg, Amsterdam, Paris and Dublin.
Davis has claimed the UK can have a bespoke deal described as a “Canada plus plus plus” which would be similar to the EU trade deal with Canada “plus the best of Japan, the best of South Korea and the bit that is missing, which is the services”.While the EU has argued that this is impossible,
TJ it would be very helpful if you stopped making things up at the start of the day. Ok your scare stories on NHS have now been falsified - thanks for the links that did this as they were very helpful in putting the impact on the NHS into its correct context BTW - but that does not mean that you need to make things up about “havoc” in other industries such as banking.
The scale of job moves has been scaled back very significantly. UK banks are all well placed for each scenario and a deal of some sort is extremely likely. Yes, Jambas got the wrong end of the stick re Barnier’s comments yesterday but that is different
The EU’s own analysis indicates that no European city has the collection of benefits that had made London the #1 global financial centre and the the fragmentation of European wholesale markets carries costs for Europe too. They are very clear on this.
So be a good chap and stop making scare stories up
Thanks again for the helpful links to the NHS data. Must admit I thought it was a much bigger deal but happy to be corrected there 😉
So thm what do you think the impact of brexit will be on the NHS?
As above, negative but manageable and thanks to TJs data seemingly less negative that I previously thought
but manageable
We have seen how Hunt manages negative impacts this week. Just cancel a months worth of operations.
My friends in the NHS (nurses and doctors) all say it is running on vapours..
teamhurtmore - Member
As above, negative but manageable
You genuinely believe that don't you?
Incredible.
As above, negative but manageable
Your opinion. In some areas of the country you are simply wrong. And the sudden drop in EEA/EU nurses moving to those areas is a major part of this, even if you would rather pretend otherwise. See also huge rise in costs due to our post Brexit vote weaker currency.
The EU’s own analysis indicates that no European city has the collection of benefits that had made London the #1 global financial centre….
True. Other cities have a lot of catching up to do. A lot.
THM earlier
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Leku - as ever, important to understand the root causes even if it is convenient to blame Brexshit. Interestingly Brexshiteers tried the same trick by blaming the Eu and all the foreigners. You chose which is less correct.
Yep, Frankfurt is going to be THE place to be in the financial sector.
Could we repurpose the City into a theme park?
Zip wires from the taller buildings. Others used for urban paint balling? 🙂
The Leave cheerleaders would call that "rebalancing".
Each of the Uk banks have chosen different bases for the EU subsidiaries - so FKT is not a clear winner. All that is happening is that wholesale financial markets are in danger of being fragmented.
The losers include Eu corporates who will have access to smaller pools of capital at higher prices. Lose: lose again.
Lose: lose again.
Yup.
Some geographical areas gain, but he rEU as a whole loses as we Leave. As do we. Let's keep cheerleading…
You're going to have to think of a new strategy on here, THM. You've now accused just about every one of your adversaries of lying and making things up when it takes very few keyboard strokes to check and find that they aren't.
The losers include Eu corporates who will have access to smaller pools of capital at higher prices.
You're completely ingnoring how the markets work and how corporates finance here. Investors are actively searching out investment opportunities, people are richly paid to seek out return. There's a mountain of money seeking a profitable home and it matters not a jot whether it goes through Frankfurt, Paris or London. In the modern world money always finds it's way to where it's needed.
In fact I would argue the contrary position, more local markets/bank in the EU rather than London will allow easier, closer contacts with local entrepreneurs in local languages rather than having to go through London in English.
Everyone? Don’t do yourself down Ed. You and the still winning the contest by a mile - and setting the pace today too
New strategy? Yes rely on you guys to post links that disprove your own points. Makes our life much easier. See ^
Ignoring how markets work? Indeed I was just referring to the fact that 40-70% of European wholesale finance (source: the EU) is raised in London. Odd that?
Argue away. Evidence shows that you are wrong. So it’s an empty room but enjoyable to read nonetheless. Facts are so dull and boring in contrast
if all so rosy why-
The chancellor and Brexit secretary travel to Germany on Wednesday on a charm offensive they hope will shift the EU’s implacable opposition to services being included in a final deal.
t 40-70% of European wholesale finance (source: the EU) is raised in London.
But could be raised from anywhere and will be post Brexit. Bankers will invest where's there's return, that's what they do. Rejoice, you may be offered a job in somewhere nicer than that there London town that means you sit on a miserable commuter train and are miles/kms from where you'd like to spend your time.
Another remoaner
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-analysis-david-davis-no-deal-letter/
We would prefer a deal that includeds services and allows passporting as equivalence is a poor subsititute. One reason why existing deals don’t suit our needs (or those of Europeans)
Nope Ed they can’t - even the EU admits this. But carry on....London has a unique “ecosystem” that predates the euro etc and explains why it is the dominant source of global finance. The EU admits that this cannot be replicated elsewhere for a long time
But carry on....London has a unique “ecosystem” that predates the euro etc and explains why it is the dominant source of global finance
How many other industries has that been said about?
Remember when the Japanese were a joke at manufacturing or, if you cant remember that far back, the Chinese.
My wife works in recruitment of permanent doctors and has just moved from locum doctors. In locums they are having huge problems filling vacancies, especially in less desirable areas. Partly down to the rate caps put in place by Cameron, partly down to reduced eu doctors post brexit. There are loads of shifts going unfilled due to lack of interest.
Then the Tories can privatise the NHS and staffing is the contractors problem.
I think you need to provide a link THM. Paris mobilised on the day of the referendum result as did London's other competitiors:
Paris is the new regulatory centre
If Brexit happens London is in trouble. Even if it doesn't happen London has already lost out and will be treated with caution in future.
Hammonds in Berlin tonight to [s]grovel[/s] [s]plead[/s] ask them to be nice to us or risk EU stability....
The economic partnership should cover the length and breadth of our economies including the service industries — and financial services.Because the 2008 Global Financial Crisis proved how fundamental financial services are to the real economy, and how easily contagion can spread from one economy to another without global and regional safeguards in place.
That is why the UK has worked with our partners in the EU to ensure we led the world in making the regulation and supervision of finance safer.
In particular, we’ve sought to ensure that financial authorities across the world can cooperate in rule-setting and supervising systemically important global firms, to make sure such a catastrophe doesn’t happen again.
That work shouldn’t end because the UK is leaving the EU. On the contrary, we must re-double our collective effort to ensure that we do not put that hard-earned financial stability at risk, by getting a deal that supports collaboration within the European banking sector, rather than forcing it to fragment.
This is an interesting read
https://flipchartfairytales.wordpress.com/
and chimes with conversations I have had with Brexit voters
"manageable" is of course fundamentally unfalsifiable. Which is presumably why you said it.
The NHS is going to be in better shape wirh substantially increased funding as a result of Brexit. The Tories will see to it for two reasons. Firstly it was a Referendum pledge and secondly it makes electoral sense to take away what Labour hope will be a GE “weapon”. Remember 2015 - Labour pledge 1 billion, the Tories pledge 8. End of debate.
Firstly it was a Referendum pledge
Really? I thought it was a throw away comment on the side of a bus that the leave campaign back-pedalled on afterwards.
The NHS is going to be in better shape wirh substantially increased funding as a result of Brexit.
That's some properly lazy trolling.
Remember [s]2015[/s] 2017
150?
Of course spending on the NHS will go up… huge increased funding is needed to cope with higher costs already brought about by the referendum vote (I'm not even talking about the future effects of actually Leaving).
[quote=jambalaya ]The NHS is going to be in better shape wirh substantially increased funding as a result of Brexit. The Tories will see to it for two reasons. Firstly it was a Referendum pledge and secondly it makes electoral sense to take away what Labour hope will be a GE “weapon”. Remember 2015 - Labour pledge 1 billion, the Tories pledge 8. End of debate.
Why do you care?
You'll be sunning yourself in Portugal
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France is the regulatory centre?
In the sense of being the odd man out resisting Basel 4 regs!!
Ed you are a card!!
It’s hard to know how you could position yourself further from the truth
HSBC is the only UK bank that may use Paris as its EU core hub because it already has the infrastructure there. Other banks are locating elsewhere - so the Macron invite seems to be falling in deaf ears
Still keep it coming - in my sterile, fact-based work environment the truth is so much duller and boring so you rays are most welcome
France is the regulatory centre?
Where is the EBA moving to?
To a EU capital - would be silly to stay in London if it isn’t a member of the EU wouldn’t it? Not that it makes a difference beyond the headline
The NHS is going to be in better shape wirh substantially increased funding as a result of Brexit. The Tories will see to it for two reasons.
When have the Tories ever looked after the NHS? Left us with better service? It's against their very principles isn't it?
[quote=jambalaya ]The NHS is going to be in better shape wirh substantially increased funding as a result of Brexit.
Of course it is
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France is the regulatory centre
Tho it pains me to agree with THM, this is bollox.
With a capital B - but fun nonetheless
Hammonds comments above the fragmentation is on the button. The EU know that too.
When have the Tories ever looked after the NHS?
Now? Compare labour led Welsh NHS to tory run English NHS.
The NHS in the devolved area have the same issues as England because of the budget constraints and cuts set by Westminster.
The tories have never looked after the NHS. funding goes up as a % of GDP under labour and falls under the Tories
Poopscoop - Member
teamhurtmore - Member
As above, negative but manageableYou genuinely believe that don't you?
Incredible.
What a ridiculous fantasist. 30 000 shortfall of nurses and the loss of nurses is accelerating. 1000s of doctors short and accelerating. Huge % of the workforce retiring in the next few years with insufficient in training to replace them
there is non so blind as those who will not see.
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NOte the peaks and troughs and consider what governments were in power. Labour build and support the NHS, tories cut and attempt to destroy.
We still spend far less than comparable countries and its scandalous.
that the tory fantasists on here want to pretend its different shows how detached from reality they are
jambalaya » The NHS is going to be in better shape wirh substantially increased funding [b]as a result of Brexit.[/b]
Do explain how this is.
If you're going to shout"bollox" to a post abcked up with a link I suggest you address the issue raised in the link and counter it with something more solid than helpless ignorant cry of "bollox"
Why would he? By posting a link that shows that you misunderstand the role of the EBA you are giving him an excuse to merely dismiss the argument - sensibly in this case.
TJ some more great hyperbole there and still failing to link directly to Brexit - so assume you accept that your argument there was flawed. Hope springs....
So Frankfurt having the ECB is still more significant than Paris adding that EBA to the ESMA, when it comes to regulation? Please be clear what your point is THM, stop time wasting.
Like nailing jelly to a plate. Just make your point, rather than waving your hands around.
We did the EBA and EMA before and their roles, which debunked the doomsdayers then
“Our” point is that Ed is misguided in believing that Paris/France has any claim to be at the centre of European regulation. As those of us involved know they are more often an outlier as we saw with the Basel 4 negotiations at the end of the year. The location of the EBA is a convenient red herring for remoaners. Nothing more, apart from the amusement factor
Kelvin you could focus your attention on the fact that the tag team keep posting woefully inaccurate claims to support their undemocratic agenda. We need rosbif in the plate not jelly
Our point is that Ed is misguided in believing that Paris/France has any claim to be at the centre of European regulation.
So do you think it's Frankfurt? And increasingly so post Brexit?
Our point is that Ed is misguided in believing that Paris/France has any claim to be at the centre of European regulation.
I've never claimed that - go on quote me you distorting, misquoting master of putting words in people's mouths whilst accusing them of lying and making stuff up. You post dirty, THM and we all know. I linked the regulatory agency that's moving so you know exactly what I was refering to.
I've pointed out that London is losing infuence and regulatory power to Europe (not just Paris or even France)
Kelvin you could focus your attention on the fact that the tag team keep posting woefully inaccurate claims to support their undemocratic agenda.
No one has tried the "they'll be trouble on the streets if I don't get my way" undemocratic nonsense in this thread for ages. Just people saying we should take a different course, as our current one is damaging, in their eyes. Nothing undemocratic about that.
As for inaccurate claims, try putting some detail into your "you don't know shit" style empty posts. It really would help, and suggest that you want to engage, not enrage.
“Paris is the new regulatory centre”
Your words exactly. No it’s not. The EBA is relocating it’s activities there. That’s it.
And you are wrong on the second point too. This is on top of
If Brexit happens London is in trouble. Even if it doesn't happen London has already lost out and will be treated with caution in future
Of course it’s understandable that people will be confused. Barnier will be deliberately trying to raise uncertainty and confusion in this next phase especially with fin and other services
Yesterday was merely a pretend hint that if we are lucky we may be considered partly equivalent in terms of regulation. He was playing to an audience. Nothing more. Of course we are equivalent
Of course we are equivalent
The issue is, what keeps us equivalent, yet allows us to "take back control". How does the EU prevent us diverging in a way that could damage the interests of the remaining member states?
We did the EBA and EMA before and their roles, which debunked the doomsdayers then
???
Youll have to go and show us this debunking because, the medicines regulations is still a huge headache for uk pharma & research
the uk is now asking to stay in the EMA too, another loss of soveignity!
Don’t ask me about taking back control - I am not a leaver
Keeping equivalence a better question. If we lose passports and rely on equivalence only then we will be operating under locally based subsidiaries for certain activiities (some simplification here). So we will have to stat equivalent by definition. Perhaps the issue that you are thinking about is what influence will we have over future EU regulation. To the extent that it deviates from global regulation, then less clearly.
THM,it's interesting that for all your claims of insider knowledge,you never provide any evidence in your favour,just resort to slagging other people off. If you have any real evidence to back up your claims,please present it,or shut up.
P.S. just saying "I know more than you" doesn't cut it,if you want us to agree with you,show us the evidence,otherwise,it's just trolling again,so sad.