Forum menu
this for England says otherwise
http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7783
English nhs or UK workforce? don't muddle the two.
England as I have been clear throughout, but my understanding there are no major differences although figures more difficult to put together.
this for England says otherwise
No it doesn't.
No it doesn't
1.2 Changes before and after the EU
referendum
The table below shows the change in the percentage of staff with EU
nationality over time. The percentage has changed little since the 2016
EU referendum. In June 2017, 5.6% of staff held EU nationality (of staff
with a known nationality), compared with 5.5% in June 2016.[b] However
in June 2017 the percentage of doctors and nurses with EU nationality
fell slightly[/b]. The percentage of clinical support staff with EU nationality,
however, reached a new high in June 2017
oh yes it does
[img] 
[/img]
mefty
The numbers I have quoted are UK workforce ie nhs and non nhs Are you quoting NHS only or total workforce?
the reason its important is that short term workers will not all appear on the NHS workforce and a difference in short term workers recruitment and retention makes a difference to total numbers much quicker than if they were long term workers. Many eu doctors work for locum agencies and sometimes are not even living in the UK
Doctors went up as % according to that report, nurses slightly down but report disagrees with source data so not clear how they have adjusted.
Brexit secretary’s leaked letter to Theresa May claims UK business interests damaged by EU’s warnings on no-deal scenario
so even DD agrees that Exit is already damaging UK. I'm not certain what he expects the EU to do. Ignore the (very) often threaten 'no deal'?
🙄
obviously this decreaese in the % of EU workers joinging/increase in those leaving is against a desperate recruitment drive to try and mittigate the last decade or so of 'efficiency savings' that have given the NHS its worst staffing crisis.
Just had lunch with 3 jr doctors all recounting how bad their shifts are at the moment.
Its fairly Obvious that the weak £ makes the UK a less attractive place for foreign workers
Bottom line. Scare mongering about Brexshit impact on NHS is OTT
there are still people actually reading the debate as a debate.
As you say, debate is only possible with informed debaters. Consistent track records of posting stuff that is simply untrue merely prevents/detracts from debate
Since the vote, this had been a constant theme from remoaners as guardian article noted
The clear example above is the UK economy. Growth has slowed slightly and had been revised up on initial releases. It was slowing anyway given where we were/are in the current cycle. Brexshit didn’t help but the outcome was better than expected. None of those trends support the exaggerated adjectives used ^ to describe the performance of the UK economy post Brexshit vote
Debate is possible if people are willing to stick reality rather than fantastIc distortions of reality
Actually...I think I prefer the driving thread.
Great letter from DD !
😆
Scare mongering about Brexshit impact on NHS is OTT
What do you expect the effects of leaving the EU will be on the NHS?
Consistent track records of posting stuff that is simply untrue merely prevents/detracts from debate
Well said Sir!
For once we agree!
Where is jamba anyway?
thecaptain - MemberScare mongering about Brexshit impact on NHS is OTT
What do you expect the effects of leaving the EU will be on the NHS?
"Send them all home" and "train British people up to do the jobs", according to a colleague of mine. What could possibly go wrong?
teamhurtmore - MemberDebate is possible if people are willing to stick reality rather than fantastIc distortions of reality
Absolutely. So the reality is that impeding free-trade with the countries that are involved in ~50% of our imports/exports is lunacy.
It's like telling the shops in your local town centre that 50% of their customers will have to pay more AND 50% of their stock purchases will cost more/involve additional administration. Then tell them some of them that their EU employees with either have to "go home" or they'll have to pay for visas and additional administration for them.
As for fantastic distortions of reality...
Basically anything to do with the above problems being magically solved with trade with random countries additional thousands of miles away and magically finding trained-up British people tomorrow to do the same jobs. And still make a profit in the meantime dealing with the transition.
I'm specifically asking THM's opinion as he was complaining about others scaremongering.
@THM I posted the following a month ago in this thread and is just one real example of a brexit effect on the NHS. This is not scaremongering. There is actual planning ongoing looking at stockpiling medications as this is perceived as a real risk.
“I work in Pharmacy in the NHS and just on my way back from a meeting in London where one of the things discussed was future challenges. There is real concern about drug availability and cost post brexit. Apparently there’s suggestions from drug companies that post brexit if the UK has its own regulatory system to comply with outside of the EMA, plus the NICE process, there’s a real possibility that the UK market won’t be commercially attractive enough to bother with (we’re about 4% of the global market). It could be that access to many drugs is increasingly limited and we will rely on increasing amounts of parallel imports with a much less robust supply chain. They’re forecasting potential major supply issues.”
teamhurtmore - MemberDebate is possible if people are willing to stick reality rather than fantastIc distortions of reality
THM really posted this? - warra walt. He is the biggest purveyor of untruths on this forum. Jamba may be deluded but THM is a consistent fantasist with a long term track record of simpluy ignoring inconvenient truths..The drop[ in Nurses from the EU registering with the NMC is from the NMCs own figures and is above reproach IE its real
The reduction in applicants of 95% was one particular month. The trend is continuing and clear and a real issue for the NHS
“Earlier this year we released figures which showed the number of EU trained nurses and midwives joining our register was reducing. At the same time, figures also showed the number of EU trained nurses and midwives leaving our register was increasing.“Latest figures for April and May 2017 show that these trends have continued,
Nursing and Midwifery Council (NMC) -
This report presents data from the NMC register and finds that an increasing number of nurses and midwives are leaving the profession rather than joining it. It also finds that the number of nurses and midwives from Europe has decreased, with a 67 per cent rise in staff leaving and an 89 per cent drop in those requesting to join the NMC register.
http://kingsfund.blogs.com/health_management/2017/11/the-nmc-register-30-september-2017.html
Look into those figures and you see exactly what is happeing
april 2016 1154 joined the register april 2017 46 joined the register. a drop of 96% in applicants
april 2016 211 left the register, april 2017 406 left the register
He is the biggest purveyor of untruths on this forum. Jamba may be deluded but THM is a consistent fantasist with a long term track record of simpluy ignoring inconvenient truths
😀
Says a man caught posting wild exaggerations today yet again!!!
Mirror, mirror on the wall.
Capn. As a remainer, I am well aware of the negative consequences of giving up membership of the EU and spent many months last year quantifying these consequences and preparing for them.
One of the reasons why I am not a remoaner however - leaving aside the fact that I respect democracy - is that I am also aware that (1) these consequences while negative are manageable albeit with additional costs, uncertainty and inconvenience and (2) economies have natural balances - constrained if your are silly enough to be part of s fixed exchange rate - that offset the negatives.
As we have seen already, the UK economy has already proven to be far more resilient that many predicted, with some (limited to date) evidence of a much needed rebalancing of economic activity.
Of course none of this totally negates the folly of leaving but life is never simple. Shit happens. Character is determined by how you respond to shit happening.
Hence my respect goes to those who understand what is happening and adapt and respond while my contempt/pity is for those who merely lie and distort reality in order to further their undemocratic ends.
We all have choices regarding which camp we want to be in
THM with more fantasy bullshine and personal attacks on me? I'd bet a tenner
teamhurtmore - Memberteamhurtmore said something stupid.
😉
What's the point of the killfile TJ if you're trying to reply to "teamhurtmore said something stupid"? You know he loves winding you up yet you continue to bite. Time to take a step back for your own sanity.
Salad dodger ^^^ +1.
Plus, it’s tedious... either read and reply or ignore it. Take yer pick please.
And, just to clear, please do feed the troll.
I ain't biting. I don't see his posts but it amuses me that he posts so often immediately after I post and my bet is he is both saying something ridiculous and making personal attacks on me. I could be wrong of course but I ain't getting wound up - I am laughing at the ridiculous Walt. Its really funny how often others on this thread attack him for his ridiculous untruthful assertions and its laughable how often he seems to reply to me despite me not seeing his posts
Edit - sorry if it annoys you chaps. I'll lay off.
.
I often post to correct obvious lies and BS. If it happens to coincide with posts from someone trying to bully others with untruths then go figure.
You're obviously an intelligent chap THM so why you insist on trying to wind people up or posting in erm, your unique style is beyond me. People would probably take you a bit more seriously (as you sometimes make valid points) if you put as much effort into trying to inform people rather than doing your best to come across as a sanctimonious ****. All imho obviously.
So back to the point. The NMC figures clearly show the massive reduction in EU nurses coming to the UK. Unarguable robust figures that show clear damage to the NHS from brexit.
You're obviously an intelligent chap THM
Not like you to spout utter rubbish on this forum, salad-dodger, but that's gross.
😉 😛 💡
Welcome back Ed
I often post to correct obvious lies and BS
You’re more than just a little selective though aren’t you - go on, be honest..
Welcome back Ed
I'm having trouble believing that too. 😉
Welcome back Ed.
I often post to correct obvious lies and BS
I had a look at a few sites for some of the positive news you're talking about THM, and found this:
You'll note it concerns Scotland rather than England.
On the contrary Ed, I “enjoy” your posts immensely
Boom and bust?economies have natural balances
**** me your reports are a little biased who i paying top dollar for this polemic ? Paul Dacre?my respect goes to those who understand what is happening and adapt and respond while my contempt/pity is for those who merely lie and distort reality in order to further their undemocratic ends.
Its not undemocratic to oppose a decision or fight for what you believe in or want its the definition of democracy. Furthermore respecting someone right to oppose is also democratic where as attacking them, a undemocratic, is undemocratic. This is basic stuff , even for an "economist"
I have no respect for someone who cannot see this simple truth and instead distorts reality
EU nurses? IN a year we have gone from a positive balance of + 800 eu nurses per month joining the UK workforce to a negative balance of - 350
That is a serious loss to the NHS, its undeniable robust figures and is one well predicted damaging consequence of brexit that was predicted and is happening.
But this is factual proof of serious damage from brexit so will be ignored by the leavers and the fantasists
TJ the NHS now requires an English certificate for nursing applicants. The drop off in numbers is almost entirely due to that. I asked my friend who works in HR for the NHS
BTW there is a really interesting chart of EU vs non-EU nationality for nurses in the NHS. Non-EU used to be much much higher before the Eastern European nations joined. It can be higher again if necessary.
Barnier doing more backtracking from his (daft) no bespoke deal / no services deal comment. Supposedly said that UK banking law/regulation may be formally recognised by the EU allowing pretty free access. Not a surprise as the EU couldn't replace UK skills / expertise and markets any time soon and not without many billions in investment in regulatory infrastructure.
Send your mate the NHS advice as what they told you was wrong
Supposedly said
have you got a link.
No problem getiing all the banking expertise needed, there'll son be a surplus in London, though I have to say that the banking experts on this forum seem to be anything but expert.
Not sure you correct on Barnier Jambas
Just some waffle about equivalence - no really! We have been at the heart of financial regulation - often when Europeans want to water it down eg France and Basle 4 - so the idea that the Uk would not be granted third country equivalence is laughable
Still he has an audience to satisfy
jambalaya - MemberTJ the NHS now requires an English certificate for nursing applicants. The drop off in numbers is almost entirely due to that. I asked my friend who works in HR for the NHS
Cite? Oh no you can't its a friend that told you
EU nurses I have met and thats plenty have no issue in meeting a minimum styandard for english. Non EU ones very much more difficulty. Nor does that explain the doubling of those leaving the register.
jambalaya - MemberBarnier doing more backtracking from his (daft) no bespoke deal / no services deal comment. Supposedly said that UK banking law/regulation may be formally recognised by the EU allowing pretty free access
Link? - i'd be interested to see that as it would be the first major change in stance from the EU and its clear they want the financial services that serve the EU based in the EU.
Interestingly a year or two ago when I wanted to tax these guys fairly you said they would all flee to Europe if the tax rate went up. Now you say they won't move to Europe to follow the work.
Perhaps if people stopped scaremongering EU citizens about life after Brexshit then the situation would not be as bad as they fear. Plus if other countries are able to hire substantial numbers of foreign health staff without FoM there is no reason why we can’t either - unless folk want to exaggerate for effect
jambalayaBarnier doing more backtracking from his (daft) no bespoke deal / no services deal comment. Supposedly said that UK banking law/regulation may be formally recognised by the EU allowing pretty free access.
[b]Not a surprise as the EU couldn't replace UK skills / expertise and markets any time soon[/b]...
Yeah, our highly skilled bankers did a great job for the UK 10 years back.
Thank Christ they weren't incompetent, greedy, gamblers eh?...
For a bit of balance though TJ, an ex colleague of mine has just left the prison service to become a nurse. (& up to now is absolutely loving it)
Out of the frying pan, etc?
Yeah, our highly [s]skilled[/s] greedy bankers did a great job for the UK 10 years back.
FTFY
Pretty similar job in many ways. On your feet all day, have to be nice to scrotes etc
so the idea that the Uk would not be granted third country equivalence is laughable
Britain had better clean up its act then because a lot of European countries are sore about the UK's role in "tax optimisation", it's dealing with tax havens, the status of British dependancies. The Spanish tax collector is losing revenue on AirB&B rentals because of a dodge involving a Gibralta based payment system which is opaque - the cheek of it.
Al this fiscal dumping and help with tax evasion is on th eagenda of countries with a veto so Britain is going to have to deal with them or fail to get a deal.
I told you I enjoyed your posts!
[url= http://www.recruiter.co.uk/news/2017/06/language-tests-hit-eu-nursing-recruitment-crisis-harder-brexit ]LANGUAGE TESTS HIT EU NURSING RECRUITMENT CRISIS HARDER THAN BREXIT[/url]
IELTS test introduced in January 2016
Its not what the NMC say nor is it credible given that there is IME no problem with EU nurses and speaking english.
😀
Plus if other countries are able to hire substantial numbers of foreign health staff without FoM there is no reason why we can’t either - unless folk want to exaggerate for effect
Which other countries? Are they equivalent to the uk?
How many is “substantial”? Is that enough?
Where are these “substantial” numbers? Sitting around doing nothing?
Do these “substantial” numbers meet uk medical standards?
What will it cost the NHS to employ/administer these “substantial“ numbers who will presumably require work visas? Can it afford it?
Will we have to out-bid other countries to employ foreign staff if they aren’t just doing nothing?
Have we really met the intent of the Brexit vote if all we’re doing is replacing EU workers with “even more foreign” equivalents?
It’s really easy to just come out with a waffly statement. Look forward to the collateral that backs it up with the reality of hard facts and thought-through consequences.
We get more nurses and doctors from the ROW than the EU already.
No reason why Eu nationals need to leave other than scaremongering
Aus and Canada and similar third world countries to us 😉 Less than 50% of Aussie medical staff are Aussie born. They cope. So can we
Gov most likely to treat NHS staff differently/prioritise
Still keep scaremongering....
[a lot more]
They don't "need to leave" now but many may reasonably choose to do so. I know of EU academics who have chosen to pursue their careers elsewhere. I don't currently "need" e-residency of Estonia either but am considering setting it up anyway as doing so would eliminate one possible hiccup in participating in a planned H2020 bid. It's all about preparing for brexit, I thought you were in favour of that....
Yes mefty - and most ROW nurses have to be retrained in the UK as their qualifications are not accepted by the NMC. takes 6 months to a year depending on the country. Also visas are tricky to get and expensive and take time.
I love it. Hard factual evidence of Brexit causing huge problems in recruitment and retention of EU nurses increasing the pressures on the NHS and loads of nonsensical distortions from leavers and tory fantasists to tyry to explain why this is not an issue.
Its a huge issue and its very damaging
Anyone mentioned the "immigration skills charge" yet?
special deal for foreign nhs staff, maybe farmers , students , who else ?
builders ?
This Brexit plan is really going well 😉
No reason why Eu nationals need to leave other than scaremongering
And being spat at, insulted, intimdated, and told to "**** off to where you came from" by Brexit fueled xenophobes.
Edit: having driven a Peugeot 605 on French plates in Britain during the BSE provoked ban on British beef I can assure you that some Brits need little or no justification for being properly nasty to foreigners.
Huge issue in remoan speak - some of 4% segment of workforce may leave for various reasons including scaremongering, language tests etc
God help us when a real huge issue comes alone - “gargantuan” issue? We will have run out of superlatives well before then
“Now now young man, let’s have a look at the catastrophic splinter you have there.”
I know UK nationals who have left the NHS in the last year due to the hell of working in understaffed areas of the UK. Remember, some areas of the UK more dependant on EU/EEA staff than others, the "problem" is not evenly spread. Of course, the problem isn't that we have benefited from Spanish and Portuguese nurses in the South of England, it is that they can easily move somewhere else to stay in the EU/EEA. Why wouldn't they? And without them, the working conditions of "native" staff becomes harder… and then they look to elsewhere as well.
due to the hell of working in understaffed areas of the UK.
Edukator - Reformed Troll
No reason why Eu nationals need to leave other than scaremongeringAnd being spat at, insulted, intimdated, and told to "**** off to where you came from" by Brexit fueled xenophobes.
and being told they will have to register and be treated as second class citizens losing rights they previously had in the UK
Create a hostile atmosphere and people are voting with their feet by the thousand.
And being spat at, insulted, intimdated, and told to "**** off to where you came from" by Brexit fueled xenophobes.
But enough about the Costa del Sol...
“Now now young man, let’s have a look at the catastrophic splinter you have there.”
A quick Quant check shows people have suffered amputations and died from slinters of one type or another.
Edit: Ninfan made me smile, I feel dirty.
If we are on to silly/irrelevant anecdotes Ed, I was in the crowd at Twickenham heartily singing the French national anthem and cheering on les blues versus NZ in the RWC at the same time
We thoroughly embraced nos Amis and I won the pot in the sweepstake too. Brothers in arms with the French!!
Not that either is relevant here. Tant pis
and being told they will have to register and be treated as second class citizens losing rights they previously had in the UK
Create a hostile atmosphere and people are voting with their feet by the thousand.
[i]the percentage of leavers with EU nationality was still lower in 2016/17 than the percentage of joiners with EU nationality.[/i]
Page 8:
Have to register? Really? What a bloody cheek? We will be asking them to pay tax next?
So are the skills for filling in a registration form too demanding for a nurse? I hope note.
Good job no one has mentioned protecting EU citizens rights. Still keep scaremongering and you moaners might scare even more off
followed by a sillier, less relevent anecdote...silly/irrelevant anecdotes Ed
Bye for now... .
Indeed, glad you got the point
(The use of a plural noun was the giveaway)
the percentage of leavers with EU nationality was still lower in 2016/17 than the percentage of joiners with EU nationality.
completely misleading - check the NMC figures which are the definitive figures for those joining and leaving the register in the UK. 18 months ago ago we had a net balance of plus 800 a month ie 800 more EU nurses join the register than leave. 6 months ago it was a net fall of 350 eu nurses per month. and the trend is accelerating.
Hard robust figures from the folk who actually count the number of nurses registered to work in the UK
Here is the link again to the facts presented without political spin from the source.
>
/p>
Huge net loss of EU nurses with an accelerating trend. Fact. Unspinnable
350/800 out of a total staff of over one million.
Statistical noise
Clearly spinnable
Overall the number of EU trained nurses and midwives on our register has grown steadily since April 2010, but has [b]declined slightly [/b]since September 2016.
Relief to read that harassment was not one of the three reasons given for the drop. Apparently it’s a growing problem
ninfan - Member350/800 out of a total staff of over one million.
Statistical noise
actually the NHS nursing workforce is around a quarter of a million. losing a few % a year at an accelerating rate is significant.
still - it was aobvious the tory fantasists and leavers would attempt to explain this away as insignificant even tho its clearly not.
1% of 5% (if I have read this correctly minus glasses)
Significant? You decide.....
We must treat this information with a little caution, particularly the data for the last six months. Some nurses and midwives who left the register who lapsed may still be readmitting or planning to readmit soon to the register, and as such these numbers may come down a little over the next couple of months.