Forum menu
I've no idea
You've convinced me of that.
....and of the two, the latter is the most important to them.
Most important to [b]her[/b]. Many Tory MPs have other priorities, hence May keeping them at a distance.
At what point will it dawn on Corbyn what he's done - when the Speaker says "it's a Govt win" maybe?
The minor parties are the opposition now.
During the debate earlier, former Chancellor George Osborne said the government had chosen "not to make the economy the priority in this negotiation, they have prioritised immigration control", while the EU's priority would be to "maintain the integrity of the remaining 27 members of the European Union".He predicted the talks with the EU would be bitter, and a trade-off between "access and money".
Mr Osborne said he had "passionately" campaigned for a Remain vote in the EU referendum and had sacrificed his position in government for the cause.
But he said for Parliament not to allow Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to be invoked would "alienate people who already feel alienated" and could cause a "deep constitutional crisis".
What this misses is, that parliament will "alienate people who already feel alienated" either way. The idea that all the Remain voters somehow feel they have economic stability, and control over the industries and cultures around them, is fantasy. Once A50 is triggered, a lot of alienated people will feel even more alienated, facing a future with fewer freedoms, fewer rights, and less control over their own lives.
Anyone else seen the "he's lying to you" footage?
He's a proper pillock. Same age as me, you'd never know by looking at us. 😛
As we're going to be shafted by the politicians.
The SO needs a new passport, odds on it being junk in circa two years and her having to pay for a replacement. How about my driving licence, i guess that will be junk as well and i will have to pay for a new one! Couldn't expect the Brexiters to stump up the costs for their actions.
In same boat. Passport runs out between two trips so my hand is forced.
Shame, I wanted to hold out for a blue Passport!!
#takebritainbacktothe70s
Only 114.
498:114
Now lets get on with things
[b]Ayes 498
Noes 114
Ayes have it.
Ayes have it.[/b]
😆
Yep. Now the real business of pushing the Brexies out starts.
Or as THM calls it negotiations and compromise.
I've already put a warning shot across my MPs bows. We'll ever little (and it is little I know) helps.
498 Tory enablers.
Pants down.
You noticed the 'trust the people' mantra - so presumably the 498 can blame them when it all goes west.
Its not quite over though right? Another reading next week and a vote and then the lords?
Its not quite over though right? Another reading next week and a vote and then the lords?
Including all but 47 Labour MPs
Salmond talking about disruption next week! Angry man. Finds it tough to accept votes doesn't he!!
Seems fair to me THM. Why should he like a cowardly house?
Pants down.
What's he got to do with it - didn't he retire years ago?
Yes much better to ignore the vote!! Salmond now telling more lies on Beeb news. Leopards and spots.
Osborne was perfectly right, the economics is/was obvious. The voters focused on different issues that meant more to them. Incorrectly IMO but that doesn't matter. We lost.
Waaaah, waaaah, advisory, waaaah, waaah, not legally binding, waaah waaah, referenda have no place in a representative democracy, waaaaah waaah, parliamentary supremacy, waaah
🙂
Agreed THM - but why should he like it?
I have more respect for his honesty than the cowards hiding behind "the will of the people (even though we know it's a car crash)".
You might not agree with his view (and having met him I'd generally recommend that) but at least for once he is being honest - beeb news aside, I haven't seen that.
[i]Salmond talking about disruption next week! Angry man. Finds it tough to accept votes doesn't he!! [/I]
Not sure you're aware how this works, do you just give in and accept something that you feel is wrong or continue the fight?
Universal suffrage for example didn't just 'happen'.
Why are you crying, ninfan? It's a bad day I know, but you'll probably be ok.
And if you mean those who asked for parliamentary sovereignty, then we got that, and in the commons at least we now have a result.
We can get on with trying to change that in line with normal democratic processes.
Feel free to join us.
By the way I did love it earlier when you claimed to have "pwned" me. Had me in stitches. You must learn to read what is written.
'kin Salmond arguing about "listening to the people"!!!
The man who lies to people and then refuses to listen to them.
Edit: he gave up honesty a long time ago IGM. Offer him a referendum vote tomorrow and see how he reacts. Bloody chancer
Starmer talking sense - much more sense. He is one of the few showing leadership.
Yes the tories have certainly taken full ownership of the decision now. No buck-passing or excuses if and when it all goes horrbly pear-shaped in the coming months and years.
If they turn out to be visionaries who Make the UK Great Again by their actions then they'll have earnt my undying gratitude and loyal vote for the rest of my days.
To be honest 😉 THM, I don't think he gave it up. For that he'd have to have had it to begin with.
I was hoping he'd found it.
All but 114 MPs own the decision not just the government, They wanted the opposite but like most of Labour they are respecting the result. Ownership shared.
Not sure you're aware how this works, do you just give in and accept something that you feel is wrong or continue the fight?Universal suffrage for example didn't just 'happen'
Suffrage...
[i]noun
1. the right to vote, especially in a political election.
2. a vote given in favor of a proposed measure, candidate, or the like.[/i]
...or does it mean the right to vote in the election, but if you lose you jump up and down, re-run the election over and over until you get your own way?
I think the term "her Majesty's opposition" should be dropped in favour of something more appropriate? However this being STW I'll refer you to a Romy Schneider film from 1955.
The Last Man?
I'll direct this at THM, as I know my honourable friend disagrees with me.
I think I may have worked out my problem with the exhortations to "accept the result". It makes Britain look like one of these tinpot "democratic" dictatorships. You know the ones. They have a vote, which may or may not have been rigged, and then everyone has to accept it as the new president declares himself head of state for all eternity. (I'm not saying the June 23rd vote was rigged by the way - unless someone has other information, it wasn't.)
I neither accept nor reject the vote. The vote happened. It was 51.9:48.1 leave. It doesn't need accepting or rejecting it is a mere fact. Nothing more or less.
The interesting thing is what you do with that vote, that fact.
In the tinpot dictatorship you are told, the vote has happened the President is for life, get used to it.
But that is not democracy, is it?
Now pause for a moment and reflect.
Done that.
No a true democracy is one where we say, there was a vote, now what does that mean? Do we still mean that? How do we challenge it? A true democracy is one where we say "I wholly disapprove of what you say—and will defend to the death your right to say it."*
And that has been missing. The press have tried to clamp down on remoaners and Bremoaners and enemies of the people. The 48% have been denied there right to speak.
And perhaps it is different on here, and perhaps, Jamba, that is why you are reaping the whirlwind.
But this is not democracy we are seeing in this country. This is democracy's slowly cooling corpse.
*there are other versions of that quote
[I]
At a glance | Theresa May's 12-point Brexit plan
1 Provide certainty about the process of leaving the EU
2 Control of our own laws
3 Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom
4 Maintain the Common Travel Area with Ireland
5 Brexit must mean control of the number of people who come to Britain from Europe
6 Rights for EU nationals in Britain and British nationals in the EU
7 Protect workers' rights
8 Free trade with European markets through a free trade agreement
9 New trade agreements with other countries
10 The best place for science and innovation
11 Co-operation in the fight against crime and terrorism
12 A smooth, orderly Brexit[/I]
So, with the exception of No.1 & 12 (which are duplicates) we have all these already - and we're going to jeopardise No.2-11 just to get No.1 & 12?
Madness.
THM, could argue that salmond is representing the will of his constituents, remind me what was the vote in Scotland and what party does he represent?
I agree, its what you do with it 100% and the Government will ultimately be judged on that.
Again Starmer understood the "challenge" bit very well and pointed out where Labour had achieved "some" concessions already. His approach is in direct contrast to AWOL (Corbyn) or In-youse-face (the deceitful one).
I think a tinpot democracy is far more likely to have a vote and then ignore it if they dont like the decision.
So you are correct, I do disagree with you. What we have seen is the exact opposite of what you describe but I thank the honourable gentleman for his question - as hard as it was to understand 😉
My frustration "remains" that this is still a total waste of time. Europe will be a very different place by the time we exit. We voted on something that has a very short shelf life which is rather pointless.
More worryingly, I look around at the geopolitical arena and for the first time in life am slightly but genuinely fearful. Historians may well look back on this period and wonder WTF was going on - and I dont just mean Brexshit
1. to remain in the UK
2. to remain in the EU
You can decide which is more important - pretty bloody obvious. But then again if you think that independence is synonymous with abdicating monetary, fiscal and political sovereignty to [s]Frankfurt, Berlin[/s] Brussels then go ahead and argue for it. It would be amusing if nothing else
He was simply spouting shite this evening
More worryingly, I look around at the geopolitical arena and for the first time in life am slightly but genuinely fearful. Historians may well look back on this period and wonder WTF was going on - and I dont just mean Brexshit
Oh that my learned and honourable friend is absolutely correct.
The geopolitical axes are shifting.
A Chino-European bloc and a Russo-American bloc are not unthinkable. Not sure I'd say likely yet, but possible.
Historians may well look back on this period and wonder WTF was going on - and I dont just mean Brexshit
we did the build up to WWII in GCSE history
obvs we are not in that position now, but the division, the demagoguery, the politicians and campaigners congratulating themselves on their bus sized lies and how they used them to manipulate the debate
this has the feel of the start of something, I think it will be something bad
it might all be fine but I think that a fine line will have to be walked
More worryingly, I look around at the geopolitical arena and for the first time in life am slightly but genuinely fearful. Historians may well look back on this period and wonder WTF was going on - and I dont just mean Brexshit
I read a article earlier i can't remember where so can't link, who would have thought the death of a relatively unimportant person Archduke Ferdinand would have left 17M dead.
Add this to Plato i read a while back and it really isn't looking good!
Indeed but jokes aside about post truth politics, I do fear for what is happening, who is in charge, how facts are becoming irrelevant, how people are behaving. My neck tingles as I write this. I think that the world is in a very unstable and you only need minor events to be catalysts for much bigger problems.
Trump is a far greater concern for me than Brexshit frankly - hence I can have a bit of a laugh/be serious here. But the Trump thread makes me just angry.
I was angry after the Brexshit vote, but that passed v quickly in favour of getting on with things. It will last longer with Trump I fear.
it might all be fine but I think that a fine line will have to be walked
I was one of the few who DIDNT laugh at CMD when he effectively said the same thing
I want to reach out to people near and far and yet our leaders are doing exactly the opposite. They are badly, badly mistaken.
10 The best place for science and innovation
ROFL. It's not just media stories, but direct from colleagues, I've heard of several european scientists based in the UK looking to leave.
Brexshit is a ****ing stupid idea, But i have a reasonably paid job not rich but above average wage. I see NO benefits but hey... As long as i get paid! ( which when your wages come from CAP payments....)
But yes Trump... Will he go full Erdogan? that is when you really have to worry. The US is already a country that isn't really that outward looking, what is the chances of citizens looking for alternative to Fox?
3 Strengthen the Union between the four nations of the United Kingdom
Lolz, good luck with that!
I have innovation funding to spend. Proposals on a postcard.
Actually I really do. I can find the skills in the UK to spend it (wisely)
THM, the thin line would have been to look at Swiss and Norway. not removing ourselves from custom union and nuclear treaties....
The cynic might point to a Tory power grab knowing Labour are irrelevant
thecaptain - Member
ROFL. It's not just media stories, but direct from colleagues, I've heard of several european scientists based in the UK looking to leave.
I know some whove already left and several not bothereing to even try renewing funding
you only have to look at the sparkly new labs unfilled at the £1bn Crick centre to see that something is wrong
there are concerted efforts to ensure that our government will fund future work but theres no doubt that the UKs reputation and confidence has taken a hit
20 years in science working with the best researchers from all over europe and the rest of the world, even during the 2008 recession when a lot of funding dried up, it was never this uncertain.