[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Nope I said you were being misleading and that you hadn't lied. The quote is correct, but you are using it in a misleading context. You are therefore a bullshitter.

Certainly not.

Shame, I thought you had come up with a workable plan to control uk population based on a sound historical precedent.

How much of that net international migration was from the EU (out of interest).

How much of that net international migration was from the EU (out of interest).

About half IIRC.

Yes, it's about 50:50

However, one of the issues is that the definition applies to anyone coming here for more than 12 months, so captures students as well as people coming to work, therefore with massively different effects workforce etc.

[img] [/img]

That's a bit better ninfan.

By the way, how many on here regard themselves as immmigrants/emigrants/economic migrants?

I'm an economic migrant possibly an immigrant to Yorkshire.
Finished university and headed off with a suit cas in each hand, rucksack on my back and daysac on my front. Needed the job.

I have lived in the New Forest for 16 years so have a fair idea of what it is like. It is empty compared to most places, even in summer.

Most places? Hong Kong?

I didn't say it was improving with a rising population.

Good because if you had you'd have been wrong.

Yes, of course I was referring to Hong Kong and wouldn't be referring to other places in the UK.

And although I didn't say it was improving, I also didn't say it was getting worse - I made no comment on that as I don't know.
What data are you using to determine that it is getting worse and how much has the population actually increased over the last 10 years?

(You are free to say you just made it all up)

I wonder in all this whether anyone has taken into account the probable influx of mainly elderly ex pats who are already starting to return to the UK from their previously comfortable retirements on the Cost Del Whatever? Looks very much like we will be swapping healthy working age contributors to the economy for less healthy persons with a much higher call on the welfare state.... I wonder what that will do for places to live?

All anecdotal, but I'm a regular visitor.

"By the way, how many on here regard themselves as immmigrants/emigrants/economic migrants?"

I'm also a migrant.

Me too, but only for another 8 weeks.

I still haven't had an answer to my question. "Why and how is brexit a good idea?"
It appears neither has parliament.
I am on the fence, neutral even. I would just like to understand it?

Honest answer, ignoring the filth flying around (some of which I may have flung) -

Size of EU trading zone -v- Speed at which the UK might be able to set up UK-centric trade deals

Sovereignty -v- the stability that the EU (plus ECHR and NATO) have brought to Europe

Immigration of others -v- your right to emigrate (Auf Wiedersehen, Pet style)

Finally, club subs -v- benefits of being part of the club

There are a whole load of subsidiary issues, but where you lie on these issues pretty much leads to what you end up thinking.

For me, I don't really value sovereignty and immigration keeps my company going. And I like not having had a war with Germany or France for 70 years as opposed to the once every 30. On trade, I think we punch above our weight as a country but not as far as people think.

People will disagree on the answers, but I think those are the questions.

Why and how is brexit a good idea

Depends what your thoughts on deeper integration into Europe is?

Seems from a quick skim of the bbc page that whilst most MPs seem to be intending to vote for A50, the remainers are preparing to push hard for a soft brexit. Certainly the best outlet for remainer sentiment, and should get good cross party support.

Berm Bandit - Member
I wonder in all this whether anyone has taken into account the probable influx of mainly elderly ex pats who are already starting to return to the UK from their previously comfortable retirements on the Cost Del Whatever? Looks very much like we will be swapping healthy working age contributors to the economy for less healthy persons with a much higher call on the welfare state.... I wonder what that will do for places to live?

Our ageing population is what its all about, the older you get, the more xenophobic and right wing you get

its also why the NHS is struggling so badly right now

I collect tumours from colorectal surgical resections (work not a hobby!) , this winter has been incredible for the number of operations cancelled due to lack of ICU beds

In my first year hear I averaged 1 sample every 2 weeks, over the last 6 months ive had 4 and none so far this year!

I don't really value sovereignty

Sovereignty is a two way street. The EU might stop the UK government doing exactly what it wants, but that could be a good thing as well as a bad one. I have little trust in UK govts, because I don't think our political process produces good *democratic* results, never mind results I personally agree with.

And I've been an economic migrant too. Often regret leaving Finland.

Certainly the best outlet for remainer sentiment, and should get good cross party support.

you didnt hear fox's barking statement to MPs then

he refused to read out the report his won department had produced that said WTO tarrifs of up to 30% were likely on some sectors, claiming the print was too small and he didnt have his glasses!

What do you mean by soft Brexit, mol?

What the Brexshiteers seem happy to ignore is the simple fact that deepening and liberalising trade by defintion means giving up degrees of sovereignty. This is a simple identify. You canno dy definition do both at the same time.

So to be a outwardly-facing global economy we have to be willing to give up sovereignty, that's how it works.

Enjoying (largely) the debate - keep dipping into it - people I have never heard of making brilliant contributions. Chi Omwurah is trying to proving me wrong there at the moment, but she is an exception so far.

[quote=igm ]Honest answer, ignoring the filth flying around (some of which I may have flung) -
Size of EU trading zone -v- Speed at which the UK might be able to set up UK-centric trade deals
Sovereignty -v- the stability that the EU (plus ECHR and NATO) have brought to Europe
Immigration of others -v- your right to emigrate (Auf Wiedersehen, Pet style)
Finally, club subs -v- benefits of being part of the club
There are a whole load of subsidiary issues, but where you lie on these issues pretty much leads to what you end up thinking.
For me, I don't really value sovereignty and immigration keeps my company going. And I like not having had a war with Germany or France for 70 years as opposed to the once every 30. On trade, I think we punch above our weight as a country but not as far as people think.
People will disagree on the answers, but I think those are the questions.

IGM I am not sure you have made any argument for brexit there have you?

"deepening and liberalising trade by defintion means giving up degrees of sovereignty"

How so? If two nations were to agree to mutually waive all import tarrifs, they would be liberalising trade without giving up and sovereignty.

[quote=wors ]Why and how is brexit a good idea
Depends what your thoughts on deeper integration into Europe is?

Does it? I just want to know what brexitters think that brexit will bring for them? Positive tangible benefits. Whats the plan? Hows it going to work?

[quote=outofbreath ]"deepening and liberalising trade by defintion means giving up degrees of sovereignty"
How so? If two nations were to agree to mutually waive all import tarrifs, they would be liberalising trade without giving up and sovereignty.

It means they have to agree on standards of goods. I am not sure how this affects sov, but they need to agree on what the quality and conditions of the goods will be to allow easy trade.

Does it? I just want to know what brexitters think that brexit will bring for them? Positive tangible benefits. Whats the plan? Hows it going to work?

its something like this....

[img] [/img]

Wow, some wonderful passion from Chris Bryant.

What do you mean by soft Brexit, mol?

Can we agree that the closer a deal is to Norway, the softer the brexit?

I have posted on this before.

Trying to solve our pension/ageing population cost issue issue by increasing migration is simply pouring more gas onto the fire. We solve those issues by saving more, by sacraficing lifestyle today. Tough love but the only solution.

More controverisally I believe with increasing use of technology/AI/robotics taking away traditional jobs the sustainable population of the UK is likely to be far lower than it is today.

"It means they have to agree on standards of goods. I am not sure how this affects sov, but they need to agree on what the quality and conditions of the goods will be to allow easy trade."

They don't, the goods have to meet the standards of the country that is buying. Neither side needs to change standards, they just manufacture export stuff to meet the other nations standards. Just as we do when we sell outside the EU.

Can we agree that the closer a deal is to Norway, the softer the brexit?

Yes, Norway is effectively a shadow member of the EU

outofbreath - Member

How so? If two nations were to agree to mutually waive all import tarrifs, they would be liberalising trade without giving up and sovereignty.

in very simplistic terms

but how does that affect patents, environmental impact, use of pesticides, animal welfare standards regulation of drugs etc etc
a body of some sort has to decide what regulations to follow

its a brexie fantasy and an insult to the electorate that all these concerns are ignored

5plusn8 - I don't think I'm best placed to make an argument for Brexit.

I think it is a silly idea dreamt up by very silly people who should know better. Now stop it, its silly. (Read that as the military officer from MPython)

There are concerns over lack of jobs and prospects I parts of the UK, but that is a UK not EU issue and is at least in part due to over concentration by Westminster on the south-east of England - probably.

"More controverisally I believe with increasing use of technology/AI/robotics taking away traditional jobs the sustainable population of the UK is likely to be far lower than it is today"

...and when the phosphates crisis kicks in we are going to find a large population a nightmare.

[quote=jambalaya ]I have posted on this before.
Trying to solve our pension/ageing population cost issue issue by increasing migration is simply pouring more gas onto the fire. We solve those issues by saving more, by sacraficing lifestyle today. Tough love but the only solution.
More controverisally I believe with increasing use of technology/AI/robotics taking away traditional jobs the sustainable population of the UK is likely to be far lower than it is today.

Ok so this is the reason for reducing immigration? Do you have numbers on this that kind of outlines why this economic theory works? IE what you have said is a statement of an idea but it doesnt show any of the maths, or anything tangible.
Can you explain a bit more?

[quote=outofbreath ]"It means they have to agree on standards of goods. I am not sure how this affects sov, but they need to agree on what the quality and conditions of the goods will be to allow easy trade."
They don't, the goods have to meet the standards of the country that is buying. Neither side needs to change standards, they just manufacture export stuff to meet the other nations standards. Just as we do when we sell outside the EU.

Ok so that will add a bit of cost/red tape to manufacturing and export/import etc?

@kimbers - the goods have to meet the standards of the country that is buying. Neither side needs to change standards, they just manufacture export stuff to meet the other nations standards. Just as we do when we sell outside the EU. ....and we're talking in general now, not about the UK so don't get emotive and try to relate it to the EU.

Actually Jamba has a point about robotics and AI. That's the problem Trump has resurrecting jobs in the rust belt, and we'll have it to.

[quote=igm ]5plusn8 - I don't think I'm best placed to make an argument for Brexit.

Ahh ok sorry, I asked for pro brexits to tell me why, no wonder your answer confused me.

"Ok so that will add a bit of cost/red tape to manufacturing and export/import etc?"

What's that got to do with Sovereignty?

Just as we do when we sell outside the EU

Serious question as I don't know - do many companies make two versions of a product, for EU and non-EU sale?

[quote=outofbreath ]"Ok so that will add a bit of cost/red tape to manufacturing and export/import etc?"
What's that got to do with Sovereignty?

I don't know, I haven't made any claims about sovereignty. I am just exploring the relative merits of this free trade idea. It seems the proposal is that to make trade easier, instead of having trade area standards harmonisation, each country can have it's own standards, but if it wants to trade with another country it may well have to manufacture a bit differently for those products and then meet inspection and customs requirements on import. Seems to add a bit of cost and red tape right?

Also needs educated customers who know the standards for each country unfortunately.

Also needs educated customers who know the standards for each country unfortunately.

Yes. mol. the Norway model of "access" is at the softer end. It comes with certain conditions.

Do you think that the majority of voters who chose to leave felt that FoM and contributions to the EU budget were important part of their decisions?

Neither side needs to change standards, they just manufacture export stuff to meet the other nations standards

So you're saying the country that buys the stuff we sell dictates to us the how we have to make it, interesting......