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If MPs cant get their heads round it (basic facts), why are we having them decide?
1) We tried not letting them decide in June last year, it didn't go too well
and
2) Notwithstanding (1), we've never let this be an issue before.
Irony, zokes, irony
An argument raised above for ignoring the result of the democratic process was that those we disagree with (the majority of voters) were [s]too thick[/s] incapable of making an informed decision and therefore we should leave it to MPs. I am simple extended the same (flawed) argument (in an ironic manner).
On 2 - true
The difference with MPs vs the general public is that the former have access to the vast and (mostly) talented civil service to provide accurate guidance. Unfortunately MPs are also spectacularly bad at utilising said advice.
There's none so blind as those who choose not to see, and all that...
An argument raised above for ignoring the result of the democratic process was that those we disagree with
lol your dogged determination that this is legally binding THM 😉
The next step is MP's to vote, not happy not voting yes. This isn't the US dictatorship is it.
The difference with MPs vs the general public is that the former have access to the vast and (mostly) talented civil service to provide accurate guidance. Unfortunately MPs are also spectacularly bad at utilising said advice.
Very true - staggeringly bad. As dismissive as I am of "government" (in its widest sense) I am always amazed at the quality of much of the published materials on many topics. Its a pity MPS dont read this stuff too! The one explaining our options post Brexit (posted twice before) is very good.
lol your dogged determination that this is legally binding THM
Find one occassion
The next step is MP's to vote, not happy not voting yes. This isn't the US dictatorship is it.
No which is why I am happy to accept the vote of the people despite the fact that I am on the losing side.
Urrm, the court ruled the government doesn't have to seek approval from Scotland, NI and Wales.
or to be precise
Relations with the EU and other foreign affairs matters are reserved to UK Government and parliament, not to the devolved institutions.
Apologies, that you think MP's should roll over give TM all the power with no control.
No which is why I am happy to accept the vote of the people despite the fact that I am on the losing side.
Unless it will be seriously detrimental to the UK. If the choice is break up of the Union, recession and none of the promises delivered what are they going forward with.
Will of the people is all well and good in a good majority verdict. This one was borderline and it is the duty of MP's to put safeguards in place before we start. I know you don't agree with that but it TM can't act in accordance with the will of Parliament then she shouldn't be allowed to proceed.
Relations with the EU and other foreign affairs matters are reserved to UK Government and parliament, not to the devolved institutions.
FFS really, just because that is how it is written doesn't mean it is how it should be. The UK has devolved power, it will have significant impacts on those regions especially NI, it is right and proper that they are represented.
Anyway at what point would a sane person trust TM, Bojo, DD and the other one to negotiate anything. Which one actually has a track record in delivering anything?
Not sure whether this has already been discussed in this thread, but does anyone else get the feeling that the whole UK-EU referendum, European migrant crisis and election of Trump is the result of an organised strategy by Russia?
If so, you have to hand it to Putin - he's completely out manoeuvred the people and politicians in the West - and he's done it on the cheap! So, while UK politicians, press and public are looking inward and discussing the details of the nuts and bolts of Brexit etc., Putin is free to construct his new world order.
Looking at it from his strategic point of view, getting the UK out of the EU will not only destabilise the EU (& probably weaken NATO), it'll also probably mean that Scotland will leave the U.K., and then what happens to the RN/NATO submarine bases in Scotland?
I might be wrong, but didn't Nigel Farage and UKIP pop up on the scene at the same time that a group of former Eastern Bloc countries like Poland and the Czech Republic joined NATO? Eh, now that'd be a coincidence huh?!
I can't see it happening, but I wish some of the dozy press and politicians in the West would wake up and realise that we're all being played.
or to be preciseRelations with the EU and other foreign affairs matters are reserved to UK Government and parliament, not to the devolved institutions.
But does the EU actually come under 'foreign affairs' when so much domestic legislation is derived from it?
70 debates in the HOC on the referndum since the vote
Its not like MPs have anything better to do
the brexit black hole sucking in everything!
No apologies required, I dont.
Not sure whether this has already been discussed in this thread, but does anyone else get the feeling that the whole UK-EU referendum, European migrant crisis and election of Trump is the result of an organised strategy by Russia?
yes 😉
Kimbers, hence why businesses are frustrated.
FFS lets get on with it. This debate is meaningless apart from establishing correct legal process (in itself a good thing). The devil is in the detail and that is what matters to the economy/business etc. The detail comes from negotiation, which requires A50....etc
Kimbers, hence why businesses are frustrated.FFS lets get on with it. This debate is meaningless apart from establishing correct legal process (in itself a good thing). The devil is in the detail and that is what matters to the economy/business etc. The detail comes from negotiation, which requires A50....etc
if only the breiters had any sort of a plan rather than feelings of superiority and fantasies about making britain great again....
They do.
What is missing are the details. Why? Because its a........(you know the rest, or should do 😉 )
Some things are some things are in the hands of the UK.
Simply walking off a cliff isn't what we call a plan. What model do we want, what are we not willing to give up? We will be decent and honorable and legislate that we will not use the people who came to the UK in good faith as bargaining chips.
Will the UK put unity ahead of destructive ideology?
Will they commit to invest in the areas that are underfunded?
Will they make life better for all of the people who wrongly blamed the EU?
Will Borris put £350 million a week in to the NHS?
Will the UK pursue to removing the rights of workers?
Will they protect the farmers from deals with places like the US?
Maintain food standards
None of that is part of the negotiation.
You seem (1) to be confusing lots of issues and (2) ignoring the announcements made so far, Mike. Apart from that....
A plan with no details... hahaha!
I guess some people's definition of plan is not entirely aligned with what a plan actually is.
announcements mean shit, unless it's on the bill it means nothing.
Confusing issues? No I am setting out what I would hope that Corbyn, Lib Dems and the SNP along with a number of tories should be proposing as minimum safeguards before handing the keys over.
As part of the "timetable" A50 end of march 17, Sign off deal March 2019, that leaves TM (is she survives) 13 months and a [s]Chuck out your dead[/s] great repeal bill to push through whatever she wants. Personally I'd like some safe guards in there.
The details are what we negotiate, we do not set them in stone.
Ok, here's a question
What model has TM said she wants? (an easy starter for ten)
What model has TM said she wants? (an easy starter for ten)
Name me something that she has successfully delivered?
Now, now...no dodging the question. It was a very easy one...
[I will answer your supplementary one later]
Well for your patronising school teacher voice it's a hard brexit, no customs union, no movement, no nice trading etc. It's a fairly shit one really but still got to appease UKIP.
In the end of the day that could be her one successful policy implementation, leave it to BoJo and he will piss people off enough that the UK gets nothing. Though there is the outside chance that if he is involved we will end up back where we started but with no rebate and members of the Euro
Ok it's (2) enough said. Despite you not answering my question I will answer yours
Not sure I can without googling. I was not a TM fan. I have said so many times. Hence my surprise that she is doing much better on this issue than I would have managed....so far.
Blimey David Davis' favourite tie is worse than Corbyn's
ignoring the announcements made so far
You'll forgive me for taking these with a pinch of salt, surely?
I wasn't going to list her 12 point plan... it's rather empty of useful information after leave, leave and leave the things I listed.
Explain how she is doing well? Seriously? She took the country to court and lost twice. She has been off begging to the US then got shat on when she landed in Turkey, went begging to Turkey which was on the Vote Leave be scared of list. Has managed to with a straight face say Brexit means Brexit which is red white and blue. She is only looking slightly competent by surrounding herself with the 3 who don't agree and having a weekly put down of JC.
For sure, and forgive me for discounting comments made on that basis. We can debate what IS happening or what we might want to PRETEND is happening. Doesn't matter either way, this is the Internet
The Bill will be passed this week. Progress....
Your red lines, objectives and priorities matter going into a negotiation.
No point pretending that they don't.
Yes, May has made announcements, and all about limiting our future relationship with the EU because of her own red lines, objective and priorities… that have never been put to a public vote of any kind.
No need mike. Answer the easy question. The answer has been reported in many places.
And they're off.
Here's the bill
1. Power to notify withdrawal from the EU
(1) The Prime Minister may notify, under Article 50(2) of the Treaty on European Union, the United Kingdom’s intention to withdraw from the EU.
(2) This section has effect despite any provision made by or under the European Communities Act 1972 or any other enactment.
David Davis indicates that the bill will also withdraw the UK from Euratom.
limiting our future relationship with the EU because of [b]her own[/b] red lines, objective and prioritie
Exactly.
If we're so into direct democracy now, how about asking the people what our collective red lines are?
Oh, and Labour are giving May a green light to May's path if they pass her the power to trigger A50 without any insistence on democratic oversight of both/either her negotiating position and/or the end result of the negotiations.
[i][ I think we should have both, I expect our MPs won't insist on either ][/i]
SNP amendment
That this House declines to give a second reading to the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill as the government has set out no provision for effective consultation with the devolved administrations on implementing Article 50, has yet to publish a White Paper detailing the government's policy proposals, has refused to give a guarantee on the position of EU nationals in the UK, has left unanswered a range of detailed questions covering many policy areas about the full implications of withdrawal from the single market and has provided no assurance that a future parliamentary vote will be anything other than irrelevant, as withdrawal from the European Union followed two years after the invoking of Article 50 if agreement is not reached in the forthcoming negotiations, unless they are prolonged by unanimity.
Kelvin, we know what they are and where this leaves us - between the CU and a bespoke FTA. The result will depend on how red the red ink is (mild pink IMO) and what the other side thinks.
This was put to the vote. If Jo public cant be arsed to understand the issues then that's their fault. We don't have questions to determine whether you can vote or not - a relief for some
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/18/theresa-may-brexit-plan-disastrous-gaps-labour
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/17/theresa-may-brexit-speech-pound-steadies-ahead-of-theresa-mays-brexit-speech-politics-live
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/16/theresa-may-set-12-point-plan-brexit-vows-clean-break-does-not/
http://www.businessinsider.com.au/theresa-may-single-market-customs-union-hard-brexit-speech-2017-1?r=UK&IR=T
Trust me I've read it, listened to her empty speeches and you know what I'm neither impressed or convinced. It will result in giving away a lot (well we knew it would being the weaker party) delivering pain and restricting the UK in so many new and interesting ways. It will lead to slower trade deals with the ROW, worse ones with the EU and leave the UK open to taking pressured deals for political reasons - there will need to be something come May 2020.
Still not found something that she has been successful at doing? How about BoJo or Dr Fox on his little jaunts around the world.
The limited range of possible relationships she has chosen HAS NEVER been put to a vote.
Your pink-line idea is all your own… nothing May has said has suggested her red-lines are anything other than firm.
As much as I think Brexit is wrong, it is going to happen whatever.
Save your energy for what you want out of it.
This was put to the vote
The options for CU, SM, WTO etc were absolutely not on my ballot paper.
Save your energy for what you want out of it.
That's what I want - consultation and debate.
Indeed, because it's a negoti.....oh forget it
Kelvin, we know what they are and where this leaves us - between the CU and a bespoke FTA
Try as I might, I can't make the acronyms CU and FTA spell out either "rock and a hard place" or "up shit creek without a paddle"
Sigh - May has ruled out loads of options before negotiations have begun, with her own personal red lines, which she has no mandate for.
REPEAT
Of course not, they are the how not the what. We voted on the latter.
Zokes easy solution to that conundrum
Democracy - marginal win in a referendum to give all the power to the PM...
I admire your conviction to get straight into the shit THM, others have a bit more restraint. As said many times before running flat out down the one way street is not a plan, it's trying to do something before common sense kicks in.
SNP amendments look solid, like that of somebody holding the government to account.
Zokes THM forgot option 3 which is WTO (which the UK would have to join) that is the low point that realistically could happen.
This SNP one is very good
has provided no assurance that a future parliamentary vote will be anything other than irrelevant, as withdrawal from the European Union followed two years after the invoking of Article 50 if agreement is not reached in the forthcoming negotiations,
It highlights that what is being proposed to allow a vote on accepting the deal is a waste of time - it will be accept this deal or move to WTO/Nothing/Hard Borders & British pensioners deported. It's a bit of sparkle added to the shit before it's put on the plate.