[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Happy birthday danny!

one of the advatages of a WTO Brexit (or “no deal” if you prefer) is that it is a clean break.

Quite messy actually, as has been pointed out several times already, entry into the WTO is not automatic, and several of our special friends (The US and Aus) are threatening to block membership if they do not get preferential deals. It's almost as if they know we have mortally wounded ourselves, and are circling round to pick the bones in our hour of desperation.

Jambas - I appreciate that Schulz's comments are more for a domestic audience but he is actually talking sense. If the EZ has any chance of surviving with a common currency, it needs to follow his strategy. It cannot work otherwise and we have seen already.

Hence my first post on this thread - our vote was silly given that we have no idea about what form the EU is going to take in the future other than the status quo is unsustainable!!

£ 12% above start of the year, confounding the doomsdayers.

ing that worries me as it is a Trojan horse for cowboy capitalism in my view. The sort of capitalism that is beautifully illustrated by the likes of Cecil Rhodes, whose sheer bravado, bluff, bullying and courting of power allowed massive exploitation.

Why would he respond to this??

£ 12% above start of the year, confounding the doomsdayers.

Yes, it's amazing, almost as if we're not leaving the EU at all...

Have you read everything he has been saying of late?

It's true I haven't, I find this thread a bit dispiriting so only dip in occasionally.
I was reacting to the idea that a person wasn't fit to do their job, because they believed countries should be free to decide how many refugees they admit. Hardly extreme really. Must admit those other posts that were linked to............Well the man either likes a drink, or deliberately over the top, knowing they'll get a reaction 😕

TBF this softest of Brexits is quite representative of the actual vote as it was so tight
It really is the Will of The People!

[quote=teamhurtmore ]

£ 12% above start of the year, confounding the doomsdayers.

[img] [/img]

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=EUR&view=1Y

1st Jan rate = 1.17357

8th Dec rate = 1.14991

Bloody muslims! I no, rite?

*scans round office*

Muslim #1 is actually a Zoroastrian. Not that it matters, he's a lovely bloke, runs his department well and partakes in Friday beers.
Muslim #2 is quite observant, although he's encouragingly fond of bacon sarnies and his regular "team building" nights in the local pub. Top bloke.
Muslim #3 is wearing a hijab, clearly plotting the imminent overthrow of the judiciary and imposition of Sharia Law. Actually, she's pretty lovely too and has turned up with fresh doughnuts for the team.

With the exception of Muslim/Zoroastrian 1, all of them were born here to parents who immigrated in the wake of the end of colonialism. None of them are originally from the EU.

But let's not let that get in the way of bricking up the Channel Tunnel and making shrill noises to a nation of atheists that Christmas is about to be cancelled forever because of 'dem forrins.

Looking at £ V $ that's why!

Ninfan said:

I would massively prefer a free trade and freedom of movement deal with many of the former commonwealth nations, particularly the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, USA, [b]Caribbean nations etc[/b].
There are various reasons for this, but shared language, history, legal principles, developed scientific links, education models are just a few of them.

Dannyh said:

Ninfan wants to deal with the old outposts of empire (although[b] I note that they are ones where the typical skin colour is quite light[/b]), might be a coincidence, but India and Nigeria didn't appear on his list.

[img] [/img]

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Looking at £ V $ that's why!

2015 total trade

EU - £353,981,863,263

US - £80,568,126,775

Our EU trade is more than 4 times our US trade. I know what I'm more concerned about, but you keep papering over the cracks 😆

Our EU trade is more than 4 times our US trade.

Shocking isn’t it? Imagine how much greater that sumwould have been if we had had a free trade deal with the USA for the past 40 years

ninfan - Member
Ninfan said:
I would massively prefer a free trade and freedom of movement deal with many of the former commonwealth nations, particularly the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, USA, Caribbean nations etc.
There are various reasons for this, but shared language, history, legal principles, developed scientific links, education models are just a few of them.
Dannyh said:
Ninfan wants to deal with the old outposts of empire (although I note that they are ones where the typical skin colour is quite light), might be a coincidence, but India and Nigeria didn't appear on his list.

I must be going senile in my old age.

It was an attempted cheap shot and I cocked it up.

Apologies.

😐

Anyway to lighten the mood a little - from the Telegraph.

Arron Banks said that "this traitorous, lily-livered embarrassment of a prime minister" had overseen "the biggest sell-out of this country" since Edward Heath took the UK into the EU in 1973.

Again, his spittle-flecked rant is very reassuring.

martinhutch - Member

Anyway to lighten the mood a little - from the Telegraph.

Arron Banks said that "this traitorous, lily-livered embarrassment of a prime minister" had overseen "the biggest sell-out of this country" since Edward Heath took the UK into the EU in 1973.

Again, his spittle-flecked rant is very reassuring

I know, between Farage and him this has been awesome today. I enjoyed hearing Gove though, gawd 'elp me...

Hard Brexit seems boxed off....(possibly)....the unelected string-pullers are back in their box today (for now). Happy days.

Hard Brexit seems boxed off....(possibly)....

What exactly did we win? Other than a veto from the EU on agreement that the measures put in place for those Viagra shipments meet some EU agreed (but not full customs union movement, let's be clear), arbitrary criteria.

What are shares in RFID companies doing today?

Codybrennan.... Australia in putting Australians first shocker, good....another country (along with Poland, Hungary etc) that have their immigration systems under control...let's hope it's contagious and there's an outbreak of common sense amongst the leaders of other countries.

Boardinbob, yeah my political views completely obscure my ability to carry out my day to day job....in fact it's impossible for me not to behave in the right wing, alt right, hate filled manner you feel I do 100% of the time... 🙄

Funnily enough Bob, adults can separate their political views from their day to day behavior...i get political during political times, elections, Brexit, etc....if I'm just going to work or to the shops I'll leave the George cross flags at home, scrub off the blackface and peel off the political logos from the rear window of my car.... 🙄

Given that 52% of the country voted leave there are all manner of political views represented in the public services, to think otherwise is naive at best and stupid at worst....in fact with the Police (in my experience) there is even more of a right wing bias in officer's minds, not surprising given their often despicable clientele, it tends to stiffen ones resolve and beat the compassion out of you...maybe not what the lefty progressives on here want to hear.

Again, like myself, they (the Police) don't go into 999 calls blurting out (perceived) racist sentiment, using a two or even three tier method of treatment depending on skin colour or nationality....people can be conservative and emergency services too...

...imagine if I took the same generalizing hysterical approach to lefty, semi Marxist, teachers indoctrinating my children with their nonsense?....it would make me look (even more silly) so I wouldn't say it, i'd hope they could teach children without passing on their own personal biases.

it tends to stiffen ones resolve and beat the compassion out of you...maybe not what the lefty progressives on here want to hear.

Remember you deal with the worst of society to generalise from them is as stupid as me generalising from the worst of the police to you/the entire service - well less so you, given the odious views you express, but the rest of them.

The figures for $:£ I have from Onvista.de are:

31/12/16-1/1/17 = 0.810
Live feed now = 0.7474

I'll let people use their own pocket calculators and draw their own conclusions. They also need to consider whether it's Pound strength or Dollar weakness by crossing with other currencies and consider longer term trends as bankers usually encourage us to do. And political events such as a US election of course. Somebody is trying to mislead and it isn't me. Check for youselves by loking at a 10-year chart..

Given that 52% of the country voted leave

No, it didn't.

If i recall right, 37% did, there was 72% turnout (72 x 51.9), and there was also a substantial 'missing' vote from the younger voters who are going to be affected the longest by this decision, and who in polling would likely have reversed the decision (by comparison 75% of 18-24 year olds voted remain)

So once again, while I respect the result on the rules of the vote, don't make the mistake that the majority of [u][b]the country[/b][/u] voted leave.

Brexit but everything staying the same and no need to vote in euro elections?
that's the spirit!
freed from the tyranny of voting in elections no-one gave a to55 about by jingo!

With the added bonus that will can still blame the eu for all our problems but the average brexiter wont know what to do about it! Leave the eu oh know shit we did that....

Going by the posts on the BBC news forum site many/ most Brexiteers are livid about today, just like Farage. 🙂

People talking about hangings, traitors and insurrection etc.... before the posts get removed.

Its a thing of beauty.

Well worth signing up to the Beeb just to wind the kippers up.

Sad I know, but something to do when you're bored. 😀

You don't want a free trade deal with the US, trust me. Shit food, battery farmed meat, crap cars. No thanks.

Sad I know, but something to do when you're bored.

It's what you do best. 😀

crap cars

You mean yoou haven't got Tesla Model 3 on pre-order, Molgrips ! 😉

martinhutch - Member

Sad I know, but something to do when you're bored.

It's what you do best.

Oi! 😀

There's also the inherent costs involved in transporting goods across to mainland Europe vs to America and Australia. One is quite a bit higher than the other.

I think that this widely made assumption that Article 49 means that the default position is we are staying in the customs union and single market is false as does Barnier

“No. You havent understood that well… beyond its decision to leave the EU… the British government has confirmed that it wishes also to leave the single market and the customs union which is not obligatory. There are countries who are not E.U. members, who are part because that is their wish, whilst respecting of the rules of the single market. But that’s not the choice taken by the UK. So you have not understood that well.”

Deviant, what is your day to day job anyway? Something in the public services I gather?

[quote=codybrennan ]Deviant, what is your day to day job anyway? Something in the public services I gather?

paramedic i believe

Tesla cars - bit fragile if our FD’s one is anything to go by, bit large/cumbersome for British cities from first hand reports - probably not the future of motoring.
Fun on the track apparently.

I haven’t driven one - I can’t see where the bike goes.

I share your confusion on the customs union, Mefty. Barnier says one thing and the promises about NI imply another. No distinction between NI and GB means that if NI is in the customs union GB must be too. And if GB isn't then nor is NI, so we're back to needing a customs border somewhere between the EU (Eire) and the UK.

The model S Teslas I've seen seem about the same external dimensions as their direct ICE rvals such as the RS6. The Model 3 looks smaller.

People carry bikes and sleep in Teslas. Once the rear seats are folded down the load deck is enough for a couple of big MTBs. A couple of 27" MTBs go in the back of Zoé with the wheels out (wheels out of the bikes that is).

BoardinBob - Member
codybrennan » Deviant, what is your day to day job anyway? Something in the public services I gather?
paramedic i believe

Thanks BB, was just curious. Ex Public Sector here myself.

Edukator - 4 riders in our family. S-Max at present.

the British government has confirmed that it wishes also to leave the single market and the customs union which is not obligatory.

Fair enough but then we are back to square one with the Ireland issue, there would have to be a hard border which no one will allow, a sea border which NI won't allow...

'Lets leave the single market', will that be printed on the side of a bus? 😆 😆

Fair enough but then we are back to square one with the Ireland issue, there would have to be a hard border which no one will allow, a sea border which NI won't allow...

Not really, the Common Travel Area is to be retained and HMRC have said they can operate a customs border without the need for a physical presence at the border. There may however be a special regime for those businesses operating on an all Ireland basis: agriculture, electricity and transportation.

Tailgate or roof rack for the bikes,igm, plenty of images on the Net. The Tesla Model S is less than 5cm wider than your S-Max and 20cm longer. I doubt you'd notice. The pointed front of electric cars and reduced front overhang makes them really easy to drive into parking spaces.

So what's to stop CRC dispatching bikes to the republic duty free?

There may however be a special regime for those businesses operating on an all Ireland basis: agriculture, electricity and transportation.

and the rest.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/27/hard-brexit-would-hit-142-irish-cross-border-agreements

So what's to stop CRC dispatching bikes to the republic duty free?

That's for the EU to work out, they are silent on the matter.

So what's to stop CRC dispatching bikes to the republic duty free?

Sweden/Norway, France/Switzerland, the models exist but both aren't acceptable because of the need for a customs border.

If this stage was tortuous the next one will be worse. Inside track, the French are going to delay next phase as long as possible. How did Sartre start “la nausee”?

Still the old girl done good - hope she gets some sleep tonight. Deserves it.

Google "saisi(e) à la frontière Swisse", you'll find a reanissance painting, false Ferrari, kilos of cocaine, 600 000e in cash, weapons, 14 000 cigarettes... .

Edit: reading the article it was just two Japanesse at the Swisse Italian border caught smuggling $134bn.

https://tempsreel.nouvelobs.com/monde/20090611.OBS0268/134-milliards-de-dollars-saisis-a-la-frontiere-italo-suisse.html

teamhurtmore - Member
If this stage was tortuous the next one will be worse. Inside track, the French are going to delay next phase as long as possible. How did Sartre start “la nausee”?

Makes sense (if you're French of course) and would explain the reports earlier this year, that said that many French firms were making 'exploratory' calls, visits, and probably scheduled meetings too I would imagine, with some of our multinationals.

Well, you would, wouldn't you?

Poor old Gideon is trying to find something to be bitter about in tonight’s standard - but ended with a positive conclusion to the editorial. How bitter must that have tasted?

So what's to stop CRC dispatching bikes to the republic duty free?

I think that the likes of CRC will operate within the rules, what they may do is look to exploit the rules. It is unfortunate that at the moment we have a mode of law, especially for business and finance, where the specific rule of law is allowed to override the intent of law.

So it seems my buddy who voted leave, and lives in Scotland will be able to retain his EU citizenship because he was born in Belfast. I voted Remain and live in Scotland but can't claim EU citizenship as I was born in Scotland. Brexit it's the gift that just won't stop giving.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-keep-eu-citizenship-irish-border-a8099176.html ]The Independent[/url]

gordimhor - Member

So it seems my buddy who voted leave, and lives in Scotland will be able to retain his EU citizenship because he was born in Belfast. I voted Remain and live in Scotland but can't claim EU citizenship as I was born in Scotland. Brexit its the gift that just won't stop giving.
The Independent

Which is what I said back there <<<< somewhere. It's something NI residents would have already been able to avail of even if the UK had never been a part of the EU.

An interesting turn of phrase in the article ...

[i]“The people of [b]Northern Ireland who are Irish citizens[/b] will continue to enjoy rights as EU citizens, including where they reside in Northern Ireland.”[/i]

Being a NI resident (living there) isn't the same as being an Irish citizen (born there or otherwise entitled).

Well well well. I can only congratulate May on finally making some sort of deal. Its a shame she squandered a load of goodwill on it and funnily enough its precisely what was the EUs starting point.

Now her problems really start. Keeping the rabids on side and now we get down to the real negotiation.

18 months spent, loads of political capital used up. She folded on everything. But then it was obvious from the beginning her red lines were nonsense.

All the same - she has fronted up and ridden that tiger to the only possible destination. Now to steer it thru parliament and to dodge the knives in her back

This video of Raab getting very spanked today really needs to be shared widely

https://www.channel4.com/news/dominic-raab-on-brexit-deal-its-your-wilful-inability-to-accept-that-weve-actually-made-a-positive-step-forward

nough its precisely what was the EUs starting point.

Nope

But appreciate eating humble pie is difficult. She (and the very clever people behind the scenes) have done an amazing job in circumstances that would have defeated most people.

They proved the remoaners very wrong indeed. Thank goodness

But you are correct that the hard work begins now that we have got to the startling point eventually and despite the EUs worst efforts

in fact with the Police (in my experience) there is even more of a right wing bias in officer's minds, not surprising given their often despicable clientele, it tends to stiffen ones resolve and beat the compassion out of you...maybe not what the lefty progressives on here want to hear.

I’m a firefighter and find we have the most problems with the type of person you seem to be. You know, thicker than they think they are, racist, bitter, self entitled and angry about everything and nothing. Should that make me a swivel eyed Tory or yogurt knitting leftie? Virtually all the paramedics we work with seem nicer than you.

But appreciate eating humble pie is difficult. She (and the very clever people behind the scenes) have done an amazing job in circumstances that would have defeated most people.

They proved the remoaners very wrong indeed. Thank goodness

But you are correct that the hard work begins now that we have got to the startling point eventually and despite the EUs worst efforts

Keep going THM, you are the gift that keeps on giving. 😉

They proved the remoaners very wrong indeed. Thank goodness

Still looks like a cluster**** to me.

I will,don’t worry. It’s going as planned so easier than it must be for you. Hope you can cope with the disappointment

She (and the very clever people behind the scenes) have done an amazing job in circumstances that would have defeated most people.

Have I misundersetimated you ?

Yes you're right THM, it's a glorious victory for the Maybot and brexiteers over the perfidious foreigners. No wonder Farage is overjoyed, along with that vile Banks man and even jamby on here. Looking forward to my first bite into a juicy chlorine-washed chicken.

(who am I kidding, I've had plenty - but not in the UK up to now)

It’s going as planned

That was planned 😆

Edit; I think this might just be your [i]Jambalaya 150 majority[/i] moment...

What an odd choice you make captain

Farage happy 😯

.It’s going as planned

So the dup snafu earlier in the week was part of the plan, interesting negotiating technique there.

TM agreed more or less the same thing the uk had before but at the same time lost 99% of its influence .

your Tory allegiance knows no bounds .

😀

She (and the very clever people behind the scenes) have done an amazing job in circumstances that would have defeated most people.

The only true bit of that is she secured an agreement that a week ago looked beyond her. The fact she could have had that agreement 18 months ago makes it look somewhat self defeating and what concessions did she get - zero

Now there is under a year to do the difficult part - including keeping the rabid tendency on side. I think once they red the small print and realise she has conceded every red line she drew that the tory infighting will only get worse

😀 😀

It’s going as planned

Theres a plan...you should upload it to the Maybot

We will still be in a transitional position at the time of the next General Election. I'm sure the Tories would have preferred to avoid that.

There is no such thing as a Brexit Bill or Divorce Payment. May/EU have fudged the issue by saying we will effectively remain in the EU until Dec 2020 enjoying single market / customs union “membership”

These figures (£40bn) are what it costs to be a member for 2 years plus the pension deficit. Odly enough it’s about £350m a week. £20bn is our net annual contributions over 2 years and the other £30bn is hidden stuff like loans (which should be paid back, then we have roughly £10bn coming back to us)

We could (and should) have just left making a clean break in March 2019 and payed virtually nothing (maybe even a net recipent)

Citizen stuff is nonsense, until March 2019 anyone coming here (just for a week ?) gets to stay / return bringing their husband/wife, kids, parents and grandparents !

Ireland border more nonsense, the lack of a hard border cannot be [b]guaranteed[/b]. Its simply not possible, Both sides can commit to doing what they can to avoid it but thats it. Major error from May. Politico is also confused regarding the ambiguity of the Irish border wording

https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-brexit-divorce-deal-doesnt-add-up/

The EU and UK are “committed” to come with the tra sition deal by March 2018 but it says nothing about the final trade deal. EU is incentivised to just delay and delay to keep us in and paying longer via an extended transition. We should have had a clause which says end state trade deal largely / fully agreed by March 2019

This piece from Policto is typically slanted pro EU as usual but worth a read (markup and commentary on the agreement)

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-deal-document-annotated/

Anyway personally hoping the deal gets voted down in Parliament and we default to WTO.

@danny happy birthday. Not been checking the thread all day hence missed your question - will give it proper attention tomorrow.

Even Laura K spat out “it was a good day for TM”

😀

jambalaya - Member

There is no such thing as a Brexit Bill or Divorce Payment.

Nonsense. Maybot has agreed effectively a blank cheque including ongoing payments beyond the leave date.

[img] /revision/latest?cb=20121205194057[/img]

Ireland border more nonsense, the lack of a hard border cannot be guaranteed.

Easy. Next ge whoever wins no longer depends on dup and they go back to being ignored and stealing subsidy schemes rather than bribes for cash - no hard border then

TJ the loan commitments and the pensions go far beyond the end of 2020

There is not a euro being paid which is over and above what we owe as a member of the EU until Dec 2020. There is no new money and it is not being paid upfront.

Nonsense. Maybot has agreed effectively a blank cheque including ongoing payments beyond the leave date.

😀 😀

Yesa thats right - we are going to pay everything we owe for 7 years plus any other bills that occur between now and the date we leave. a complete capitulation to the EU. A humiliating climbdown for the tories. Basically in the end as it was clear they would have to they agreed to everything the EU asked for on day one. Shame they wasted 18 months getting to this point

Check the agreement. Its everything in this budget round which is 7 years plus any other commitments that arise between now and us actually leaving.

this is exactly what the EU asked for on day one and could have been agreed then

teamhurtmore - Member
Even Laura K spat out “it was a good day for TM”

To be fair I don't think May has had a good day since last September

Any day that May doesn't get decapitated is a good day for May.

No no no let me finish, you're entirely right THM, you must be delighted at how the plan has worked out. May has completely destroyed any remoaner arguments with her promise to remain in "full regulatory alignment". Take back control!

Even Laura K spat out “it was a good day for TM”

Being a fully paid up tory she would wouldn't she