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I've just been catching up on today's discussion here. When I read this,
IWhat a great joy the last day has been.The EU has been getting some of it’s own medicine.
... I literally had to get up and walk away from the keyboard for five minutes, as it's not possible for me to ban myself.
#fakenews #failingstw etc Cougar, if your going to have delusions you might as well have the good ones
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When can I expect these clever people behind the scenes to start delivering some good news and do I need to worry about the EU having cleverer people behind the scenes?
I think TMH has made it perfectly clear that there's no one cleverer than him.
So either the "clever people" are just putting on a show and have already agreed it all or it's going to be a massively hard negotiation with a much stronger trading partner who knows what they want.
the "clever people" are just putting on a show
I did think that a few months back, but it's becoming increasingly clear with each passing day that, in reality, the powers that be simply have their thumbs up thier bums.
BBC this morning:
Ambassadors of the 27 EU member states are understood to be "waiting for something from London".
I hope they are not holding their breath.
Looks like Chris Grayling has chimed in, too. He’s demonstrated that he’s at least consistent in his incompetence. If it wasn’t for the wrong competition from IDS, Leadsom, Truss and Johnson, he’d be a beacon of stunning inadequacy.
Seriously, I thought that the Conservative Party was meant to be a meritocracy?
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Special deliver has been delayed
Ambassadors of the 27 EU member states are understood to be "waiting for something from London.
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/im-your-prime-minister-now-20171205140394 ]They're actually waiting for instructions from Belfast. As is Theresa[/url]
Seriously, I thought that the Conservative Party was meant to be a meritocracy?
What makes you think there is a massive pool of talent in the Tory backbenches? I've not seen much evidence to support that idea.
New Conservative Party logo?
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Don't remember that room in the original Portal.
The real negotiations don't involve anyone from rEU… they are happening here… well, one key minister suggests they haven't even started yet… but it's more likely that they have started without him.
Seriously, I thought that the Conservative Party was meant to be a meritocracy?
It is. Best Slack Bob gets to be PM.
[i]Andrea Leadsom says a total of 16 peers and MPs have taken the trouble to go and read the Brexit papers[/i]
16 - from both Houses.
None of them give a toss do they?
Have you not sussed this out yet?
It's all just a game.
Because no matter how utterly disastrous the consequences of the catastrophy they usher in, they'll all be insulated from the fallout by their wealth and power. Like the banking crisis before it, the people who caused it will trouser their millions, shrug, and wander off, leaving the little people to pick up the pieces.
Remember who delivered us into this shitstorm?
[url= https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/4891107/david-cameron-purchases-2million-cornwall-pad/ ]Anyone heard owt from him lately?[/url]
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wwass, it is not as it seems if reports are correct, there are 8 one hour slots per day that can be booked. 1 mp per slot.
I thought the redacted reports, which aren't the reports that were asked for, were only available to members of the select committee, of which there are only 21. Or can all MPs ask for some quiet time alone with them?
From John Longworth (Leave Means Leave man) in the Graun.
In fact, the trade deal is worth only a certain amount. The true measure of Brexit success is first and foremost whether we take control of our laws, our borders and our money, and then whether we are economically better off outside the EU than we would otherwise have been by staying in the EU.On this latter point, there is absolutely no doubt that we can be better off, with or without a trade deal, [b][u]provided the government adopts the right policies and takes full advantage of the economic freedoms that Brexit affords us.[/b][/u]
My emphasis.
This is soothing speak for a race to the bottom - a bonfire of largely beneficial regulations after which a few spivs will pocket millions and walk away leaving the rest of us stuffed.
Every man for himself and the Devil take the hindmost.
Tory ideology beautifully summed up.
wwaswas - Member
Andrea Leadsom says a total of 16 peers and MPs have taken the trouble to go and read the Brexit papers16 - from both Houses.
None of them give a toss do they?
tbf they probably all know they are bollox anyway!
Regulatory divergence does not require a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic
http://brexitcentral.com/regulatory-divergence-not-require-hard-border-northern-ireland-republic/
Nice but of hearsay there jambs, no evidence though?
@Cougar the EU is continually playing the “27 vetos” card, I am delighted the DUP showed some backbone. I am rooting for them to hold fast past the EU summit.
Indeed. If we don't pay the bill who will ever trust us to uphold a treaty
TJ the point is that money is not due based on anything in any treaty. In fact the contrary. International treaty law says it is not due. If the EU wanted it to be due legally they could and should have written their treaties differently. What we have here is a vague “political” style “obligation”. If Poland left the EU I can’t see the remaining members keep sending them a large cheque every year - “rest a liquider”
@igm if you want to draw my attention to something you should send a text
It’s been a shambolic few days for sure, Government definiteiy heading in the wrong direction re negotiations. Hammond’s statements particularly unwise as contrary to Government’s stated position and May’s Florence speech.
Anyway ....
Fascinating piece of research into EU budget shortfalls - have not fully digested it all. Possibly most interesting (to Remainers?) is that WTO option leaves the EU itself “only” £4-5bn pa worse off but the real pain is felt by various member states who’s citizens pay tariffs only to see 80% of them sent to the EU. Also even with a complete free trade deal there are losers, eg Spain going from a net recipient to flat. As noted before Ireland is very exposed.
The UK leaving the EU damages other EU countries non-shocker.
Another reason not to leave.
the EU is continually playing the “27 vetos” card
Are they?
As far as I am aware it is mostly those people in the UK cynical about the great exit who mention what a pain it is going to be finding something which keeps everyone happy. Since Poland/France/Ireland etc will all be wanting slightly different things.
I suspect the EU leadership are all too well aware that maybot has sod all control and hence they will be dealing with multiple factions.
Why you would be cheering this on though is an absolute mystery. Unless you really want things to go pear shaped?
Doesn't matter how shit it is so long as he can palm the blame off on the EU.
Why you would be cheering this on though is an absolute mystery. Unless you really want things to go pear shaped?
I think this probably is the case. Jamby is not stupid, so my only real guess is that he subscribes to some Nietzschean sort of extreme natural selection but along economic lines.
The sort of thing that is logically sound if you discount things like ethics, existing wealth and privilege etc. So like lots of seemingly simple and 'coldly logical' concepts it is extremely dangerous when taken literally and implemented into a world that is far more complex than the theory allows.
Jamby - seeing as how we had a PM exchange and all was courteous, feel free to disabuse me of this notion if I am wrong.
jambalaya - MemberTJ the point is that money is not due based on anything in any treaty.
It'd be good to do a comparison of people who believe this is true for the UK leaving the EU, and people who believe it's true of Scotland's share of the UK national debt. I suspect that What Happens Next Would Not Astound You
When Brexiters have to cheer on people like the DUP, you know Brexit is dead.
”Brexit is dead”
Almost the entirety of STW, June 22nd, 2016 😆
Brexit is dead.
In the same way that if you have a gangrenous wound, the flesh around it is dead. But you're still connected to that flesh, and if you don't cut it off, the infection will spread until it kills you 😆 .
[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/remainers-absolutely-loving-brexit-now-20171207140541 ]You've got to laugh, unless you'd cry [/url]
😆
I know, it is great.
ninfan - Member
”Brexit is dead”
Almost the entirety of STW, June 22nd, 2016POSTED 32 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Wait 'till Brexit falls on its arse and we grown-ups send you the bill.
Wait 'till Brexit falls on its arse and we grown-ups send you the bill
Thing is all the ring leaders offshore to avoid tax anyway, they are reletivley safe so it'll be your average punter who foots the bill via reduced services, stagnant wages and higher general living costs.
The hypocrisy is staggering.
mattyfez - Member
Wait 'till Brexit falls on its arse and we grown-ups send you the bill
Thing is all the ring leaders offshore to avoid tax anyway, they are reletivley safe so it'll be your average punter who foots the bill via reduced services, stagnant wages and higher general living costs.The hypocrisy is staggering.
Yeah, the NHS will be gone all but in name. Was going that way pre referendum but Brexit makes it certain.
Yeah, the NHS will be gone all but in name.
Well at least that WAS on the ballot paper so no complaints eh?
EU spirit uplifted by a day in Brussels with all the Catalans!!
Larga vida al proyecto
06:50 GMT tomorrow Tusk to announce pre-marketing roadshow for NHS privatisation in UK. Hold the front pages...
Given that a deal is impossible (apparently) its hard to imagine him announcing anything else.
He just has a lot of bad luck when making statements of fact 😉. Jamby is not stupid
Larga vida al proyecto
Never had you down as a Ricky Martin fan.
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Great point Northwind! Especially as it ws clear that legally Scotland had no debt but offered to take on a share for a fair share of assets. Compare to the furore over p0aying what we have already agreed to pay ie pay our debts to the EU
Todays Brexit laugh. Davies supporters are saying he should take over as PM to steer brexit thru !
He just has a lot of bad luck when making statements of fact
So it seems does David Davies, maybe they should go for a drink together and sort it all out 😉
@dannyh one of the advatages of a WTO Brexit (or “no deal” if you prefer) is that it is a clean break. That’s why it is my preference. There is no notion or risk of any of this regulatory alignment, continuing ECJ nonsense. A trade deal is NOT worth any of those things. EU citizens are welcome to stay but subject to UK law as we see fit and as we may modify in the future. We should be free from day 1 in March 2019 to set our own regulations and sign our own trade deals.
Only when the EU understands we are heading for WTO will they start to negotiate sensibly amd even then I think we get the best free trade deal AFTER a period under WTO. May has buggered it up so far with idiotic Hammond very culpable.
you re not heading for wto .
Northwind, indeed Scotland could declare debt free UDI but they would be screwed with no currency or central bank, equipment in the hospitals or in the police or military. Scotland had to have a negotiated exit as it is a constituent part pf the UK, we are not yet a member of the EU superstate (see Schuktz today 😯 ) thank God.
sign our own trade deals
Which country will sign a trade deal with us before they sign one with the EU?
Why would they give us better terms than they will give the EU?
Who will support our WTO proposals, and why?
That isn't an advantage, your preference is the worst outcome and a position that no other developed country has.
The economic hardship and shock to the UK followed by the exodus of industry and manufacturing will be a disaster.
Tariffs are paid for by the consumer, you just raised taxes.
The EU know all this - they did their impact studies. If you walk into a negotiation and declare you are going to punch yourself in the balls 50x and then cut off your arm expect to be laughed at or sent for a psychiatric examination.
Great point Northwind! Especially as it ws clear that legally Scotland had no debt but offered to take on a share for a fair share of assets. Compare to the furore over p0aying what we have already agreed to pay ie pay our debts to the EU
😆 😆
Long series of text messages ending with them both turning up at different places on different days and then both agreeing it was the EU's fault 😉So it seems does David Davies, maybe they should go for a drink together and sort it all out
Great point Northwind! Especially as it ws clear that legally Scotland had no debt but offered to take on a share for a fair share of assets.
It's our Euro!
equipment in the hospitals or in the police
NHS is definitely separate in Scotland and I think the police are too, so not sure about that.
The currency, central bank etc I’ll agree with, but the real reason was to be seen as responsible (I’ll let others argue over whether it really was responsible).
The be seen as responsible, pay moral as well as legal obligations applies just as much to Brexit.
Argue that we don’t legally have to all you want, but it don’t count for much.
From the guys that introduced the notion of snake oil deceitful post truth politics too. Brilliant. 😉
No one, sensible as THM says when its not his [s]patron [/s] mate saying it, actually thinks we will walk without paying our debts so the debate is on a hypothetical that wont happen;even by the standards of nonsense we debate on here this is pointless.
He is trolling hard and I am relieved to see , finally no one is biting.
From the guys that introduced the notion of snake oil deceitful post truth politics too. Brilliant.
Stop it THM - its plain to see that we don't owe anything, but we still get to keep the assets
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See, the dastardly EU changed the rules while we weren't looking, and now claims that the UK only gets to keep all of the EU countries North of the red line
But what's [b]actually[/b] ours, according to the laws of the sea, is all the countries North of the [b]purple[/b] line. It says it here in this [s]sectoral[/s] Legal analysis of the assets of the EU, that we've really, honestly done, but won't release because it might be sensitive.
Now, where did i leave the receipt for my Tartan Trousers? I've got another weekend golfing with my mate Donald coming up and I need to get them extinguished in time.
More scots hating from THM? - how original. 🙄
Dont fret he has Ninfan for company 😆
Nifans just on the windup. THM actively hates scotland and the scots. Plenty previous for using pejorative racist terms when refering to scotland.
Mind you - you can tell a lot about a man by the company he keeps Ninfan so I would be careful if I were you
Good to seeing you making things up again TJ.
Perhaps you could try a killfile then you wouldn’t have to state false things in your constant quest to be so abusive. Just a thought....
The true Scots haters are those who were prepared to use lies and deceit to damage their own nation. The set the tone for Brexshiteers to follow
The original post truth politicians, but unlike Brexshiteers they did at least publish their BS for all to see. Had another amusing skip through Scotland’s Future this evening. Were Banks and Bojo ghost writers?
So, if the early morning press conference is to announce that a move to trade talks is coming soon… will the government need to start to do the analysis and political discussion required to decide what we're after from the talks… you know, the stuff they claimed, and we thought, they'd been doing since the referendum? Dare I use the "plan" word?
They have said what we are after from the start*. But both sides have unachievabke positions so you can’t plan too much without finalising the terms of access. That will be determined only after the next stage has progressed. Even then it will go down to the wire as the EU will need to keep playing games.
* obviously thus is not what is moaned about.
But why wait for politicians? The key decision makers who drive the economy are well ahead in planning for different outcomes.
I know I'm feeding the troll by saying this, but seriously what is wrong with THM?.
Why so divisive?
We are all European citizens for now (thank ****).
Many of us have diverse families that live in different locations and we and we'd very much like to keep it that way.
The rules are already in place for those that seek to take advantage.
The rules have never been enforced.
Ask theresa. She was absent from her duty before she accidentally became PM
our plan is to deny we have a plan so the EU dont know we really dont have a plan
our plan is to deny we have a plan so the EU dont know we really dont have a plan
there is a plan; it's a single piece of paper with "take back control" written on it in crayon.
We are. I have enjoyed Frankfurt, Paris, Madrid and Brussels in the last few days and have always been a full supporter of FOM and against harming the interests of Scotland - hardly divisive. Quite the opposite
I have lived in France and one mini THM studied there too. That’s why I voted remain
I am also against our government abdicating their duty of care to uK citizens who have chosen to live in Uk.
Timewasting trolls.
Indeed
binners - Member
You've got to laugh, unless you'd cry
Regarding that link (which is funny by the way) as it is very true.
I genuinely felt gutted after the referendum for a long while. Totally alienated in my own country it seemed.
Now, I've taken to trolling the HYS forum on the BBC news site whenever a Brexit discussion is up! Its soooo cathartic.
It's sad I know but Brexit is such a disastrously bad idea and so helplessly "planned" for that it's enthralling as a Remainer to see the replies I get to my ecstatically happy Remainer posts on there.
Extolling the virtues of a second referendum etc and commenting how out of control, "taking back control" is!
You just can't make this sort of news up. Its like a parallel universe. I genuinely dare to think there will be a second referendum.
I live in hope.
In the meantime it's delicious to see the Brexiters on the BBC site tear into the Tories as the Tories tear into themselves.
It's a thing of beauty.
There will be a deal, inspite of the shambolic Tories, it'll be fudged enough just to keep the swivel-eyed brexies happy.
Tories problem is that they picked up the torch of the Brexiter lies and have tried to carry out on, rather BV than being honest with the public
@dannyh one of the advatages of a WTO Brexit (or “no deal” if you prefer) is that it is a clean break.
@Jamby.
A clean break isn't always a good thing. Just saying it sounds like a line from Eastenders.
What is it you think we need a clean break from?
What regulations would you like to see us unburdened from and to what aim?
What do you think it is about the EU that actually holds us back, how is Brexit going to solve these issues and do you think that even if we do become more prosperous after Brexit (which I think 95% of people think is impossible), that the extra prosperity will benefit a majority or just a minority?
Yeah, absolutely.
There will be an agreed deal and as you say it will be a cluster fudge of a mess designed to try and keep everyone happy. Which is utter folly. Even within just the Tory party.
Anyway.... Then we move onto the trade deals! Remembering that the divorce agreement was billed as the "easy" part by the Brexiters. Really!? Lol
dannyh
What do you think it is about the EU that actually holds us back, how is Brexit going to solve these issues and do you think that even if we do become more prosperous after Brexit (which I think 95% of people think is impossible), that the extra prosperity will benefit a majority or just a minority?
I'd really like to know the answer to that too. Not from one individual on here as such but from Leavers in general?
The problem some people have is they sold brexit as this magic unicorn solution to everything, dismissed all criticism of the plan, ignored any difficult detail and complained that people were just being bitter by raising questions to them. Now they either have to accept they were wrong or double down, go all in on the fantasy.
Lets face it if you really believed that the aim of poker was to have a collection of different low value cards you might consider putting your house on that hand, sorry I mean other people's house.
What do you think it is about the EU that actually holds us back, how is Brexit going to solve these issues and do you think that even if we do become more prosperous after Brexit (which I think 95% of people think is impossible), that the extra prosperity will benefit a majority or just a minority?
I would massively prefer a free trade and freedom of movement deal with many of the former commonwealth nations, particularly the US, Canada, Australia, NZ, USA, Caribbean nations etc.
There are various reasons for this, but shared language, history, legal principles, developed scientific links, education models are just a few of them.
There is already an almost seamless transition in many fields - but our trading relationships with all these countries is controlled by the EU.
mikewsmithdouble down, go all in on the fantasy.
That is what I am definitely worried about. Many people having to make humiliating public apologies and losing even a pretence of having ethics. Just not going to happen is it.
Farage, Johnson etc would sooner drag us back into the dark ages and once there still tell us we are cooking our food on camp fires in the woods because the EU still has it in for us.
It will always be someone else's fault.
Meanwhile Rome burns.
3 of those deals are in progress right now with the EU.
Dealing with the USA from a position of weakness is a massive risk and IMHO a mistake.
As always people forget that the UK is part of the EU and therefore part of the control.