[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Never rely on politicians

Obvs. Especially when they chose to ignore, and sideline, civil servants who tell the truth.

You can't help but think that the reason the sectoral reports are not available is because they make for unpalatable reading and have been sent back for a rewrite or quietly shoved in a cupboard somewhere. The longer their publication is delayed, the further we will be down the track towards the leave date, and the less time the message they carry will have to fuel public sentiment against Brexit.

Well the EU have done the impact assessments and in the absence of anything else, we're screwed if we go the preferred cliff edge as demanded by Legatum.

But that was the point.

The EU impact assessments stress the large negative effect on particular areas of many rEU counties as well as our own … they paint a very lose lose situation. Useful to look at in absence of DD misdirecting his team, government, parliament, and public.

Been busy but has Davis just admitted to lying to parliament & ppublic about having done any impact assessments?

good job there are soem grown up, turns out they are all on teh other side of the channel

ANyway, poor DAvis, hes desperate to get out, first it was quitting if Green got fired, then blaming may for DUP balls up, now laying this turd in parliament

he still cant escape brexishambles!

martinhutch - Member

You can't help but think that the reason the sectoral reports are not available is because they make for unpalatable reading and have been sent back for a rewrite or quietly shoved in a cupboard somewhere. The longer their publication is delayed, the further we will be down the track towards the leave date, and the less time the message they carry will have to fuel public sentiment against Brexit.

Posted 7 minutes ago #

I can hear the reassuring thwack of a hammer hitting the head of a nail square-on.

The Tories are trying to get this so far down the road that it is irreversible before the truth comes out about what a catastrophe this will cause.

In that very real sense, the Tories are conducting an assault on democracy - one that Mao and Stalin would recognise immediately.

Don't think I've ever been as dispirited as I am at the moment, PMQ's for all it's carnival of barnyard noises is supposed to hold May to account. Corbyn won't really go for her on Brexit for obvious reasons, and she gets away with bland non-statements about talks making "very good progress" really!?! Not even the most brexity of brexiteers thinks that surely? The Tories seem utterly complacent about the fact that this could all end very very badly indeed. All of a sudden talks about Ireland are back-burner... when Ireland and the EU have made it plain that this has to be resolved now using words that everyone has agreed to...Now Davis has been forced to admit that after saying he's done his homework, it turns out he was lying...

My ****ing dead dog could make a better fist of this than they seem to be

Will Davis lose his pension if he's found guilty of lying to parliament? If he was a police officer he would - a quick google finds officers losing pensions for leaking information late alone an offence that equates to perjury.

A "quantitative economic forecast of outcome" does not exist, he said. "That is not there. We have not done that. What is there is the size of the industry, the employment and so on."

So, someone spent a couple of hours on google searching terms like 'size of UK car industry'.

DD won't be held to account. None of them will. Apart from the rabid minority, Parliament just want Brexit done and dusted and its impact really doesn't matter to them. There will still be a Parliament so they will all have their careers intact.

kimbers - Member

Been busy but has Davis just admitted to lying to parliament & ppublic about having done any impact assessments?

Yes.

We did our own impact reports!! Like most businesses. Never rely on politicians

I work for a sme of 3 dozen people. We have neither expertise or capacity to do our own reports. Like I suspect 1000's of similar businesses. Instead we were relying on our elected government to do their ****ing jobs, make information available, and you know.....assist the smal businesses that keep this country afloat.

Obvs, we haven't relied entirely on DD's stewardship, we have also leant on the industry association, and others. Summary, it's a **** up of epic proportions. But the government won't take heed of that advice either, so what's the point?

Good to see the DM are still talking up Brexit:

[img] [/img]

Hammond says there have been discussions about Brexit, but not a specific one about the end state.

So the idiots don't even know where they want to end up

There is no plan.

Not only that, it is impossible to formulate a plan that all key ministers could agree to.

Never mind the DUP. Or enough Conservative MPs.

So, keep moving "forwards", without a destination.

We know where we are Leaving from, that is all they can say without uncovering irreconcilable differences.

Cancelling the journey should still be an option open to the UK as a whole.

If only the Labour Party would back giving that choice to the people of the UK. Doubt it can with Corbyn in charge.

Wikipedia is staying current:

[img] [/img]

Speaking of reading quality newspapers, this from today's Metro:

[img] [/img]

You tell 'em Irene! And whilst they are at it: pick one bloody religion and stick to it!

😆

so has this been done?

https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/935437491691278337

basically: [img] :large[/img]

=DD contempt of parliament

So the idiots don't even know where they want to end up

I guess that does mean they will be able to claim that they didnt fail to meet their objectives.

I think Irene should go and take some history lessons.

https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/irish-history

[i]so has this been done? [/i]

yes 🙂

thought so 😳

I knew the tories were both mendacious and incompetent but the events of the last couple of days show the depths they have now plumbed.

The decision that " respecting the referendum" meant a hard brexit with no place for the 4 freedoms or the ECJ was taken by May and Nick Timothy alone with no consultation with anyone.

Davies has lied about the impact assessments in contempt of parliament. there are no impact assessments so May and co don't actually know what the effects of their decisions would be

May and co have not decided where their endpoint is ie what their favoured outcome is

May was making up policy on the hoof over the weekend without either consulting cabinet or the DUP about the deal she was offering thus it collapsed

There is no possible deal in any form that will satisfy the EU, the DUP, and not divide the cabinet

The rabids are controlling the process.

May - I know you have a strong sense of duty which is why you are attempting to manage this clusterfart but for the good of the country and yourself resign and let us get some non delusional and vaguely competent people in

Where does a no deal leave Ireland?

divided with a hard border. But the UKs fault not the EUs or the Rebublics

More mendaciuty / incompetence

(Hammond in parliament today)But he says the UK will not walk away from its obligations. Where it has a legal obligation to pay money, it will pay that money.

The draft agreement that failed on Monday
offer is “conditional on an overall agreement which takes into account the framework for a future relationship and an early agreement on transition,”

Now both these things cannot be true.

Wow, just reading Hammond’s answer to the question as to whether the cabinet are aligned on what Brexit actually means....

I would not be surprised to see either a leadership challenge or a government collapse on the back of all of this.

It deserves to collapse frankly.

It's getting completely surreal. Just sickened by it all now.

I think Davis gets the support of the rest of government for now for the simple reason that anyone who would take that job now would be almost by definition unsuitable.

In any normal situation he’d have to go.
Has he lied to parliament? Maybe, maybe not.
Has he misled parliament? Yes.
You’re out of here David.

Where's THM when we all need reassurance that it's going brilliantly and the tories know what they are doing?

I was hoping for Jamba.

Sorry Jamba, I don’t mean to bait you, but today has been typical Brexyism.

Where's THM

Doing some impact assessments.

Guys THM suggested Davis should walk a page or two ago.
Don’t portray him as supporting this debacle unless he actually comes out and does so.

Did he pay for your “p” igm?

😉
Etc.

I work in Pharmacy in the NHS and just on my way back from a meeting in London where one of the things discussed was future challenges. There is real concern about drug availability and cost post brexit. Apparently there’s suggestions from drug companies that post brexit if the UK has its own regulatory system to comply with outside of the EMA, plus the NICE process, there’s a real possibility that the UK market won’t be commercially attractive enough to bother with (we’re about 4% of the global market). It could be that access to many drugs is increasingly limited and we will rely on increasing amounts of parallel imports with a much less robust supply chain. They’re forecasting potential major supply issues.

Ironically the sections of the population who voted brexit eg older people are most likely to be taking these drugs! Killed off by their own brexit.

I guess it’s the sort of thing an impact assessment might have thrown up.

Step away from the noise then!

By Jan we will be on to trade. Bill (tick), Ireland (tick) etc

Kelvin - you have been reading!! Joking apart ;- the EU briefing docs are very interesting as are our own versions - hence a bit lost on why there is so much fuss as many studies are available. But you are correct they are often clearer than our version on why this is a lose:lose. Which is one reason why I am more optimistic that the grown ups will end up with a compromise. Forget all the who losses more BS. The clever people are focused on minimising the damage all round.

X post on the calls above 😉 !!

IGM. Not sure I did say that about DD - the incompetent one not the sneering one 😉 tbc

Which is one reason why I am more optimistic that the grown ups will end up with a compromise

Forget all the who losses more BS.

igm - Member

Don’t portray him as supporting this debacle unless he actually comes out and does so.

He has said its all going fine, the adults behind the scenes are making a deal, there will be no problems and no damage to the UK.

All utter nonsense he needs to be called out on

Those impact assessments in full...

https://lipsum.com/

Lost for words. Our company already has its own impact assessments and a group trying to sort out implications for the enormous number of EU workers.

By [s]October[/s] [s]November[/s] [s]Christmas[/s] Jan we will be on to trade. Bill (tick), Ireland (tick) etc

I have no doubt that some very clever people on both sides are trying to minimise harms.

I have less confidence that their skills and intelligence will have anywhere near enough influence on the shower of eejits who are currently driving* the process (from our side).

*loose term. More like those baby rides at the fair where the cars have a fake steering wheel allowing the wide-eyed occupant to act like Mr Toad and make 'poop poop' noises without any control over direction or speed.

@THM

With the very greatest of respect:

Would you agree that David Davis has misled both the public and parliament over the so called impact assessments?

Are you not in the slightest bit nervous that the government has attempted to bypass parliament more than once and that the Prime Minister does not appear to have briefed her cabinet partners and defacto coalition partners before attempting to strike agreements?

Guys THM suggested Davis should walk a page or two ago.

I was actually more concerned with Hammond saying that the cabinet hadn't even started to discuss where they were hoping to go with Brexit.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/impact-assessments-wouldnt-have-helped-the-dinosaurs-says-david-davis-20171206140461

Apologies THM - that was how I read this statement

teamhurtmore - Member
not sure of exact protocol tbh but certainly should lose position - BTW I am not a DD fan at all. Never have been.

I have misinterpreted you before and I will probably do again, but what did that mean?

The clever people are focused on minimising the damage all round.

Who are these clever people behind the scenes doing the negotiating?
What have they negotiated so far?
How are you getting this information?

And while you are at it can I have Friday's lottery numbers.

Punch up in a Parliament bar judging from a report in the Guardian.

[edit] Ah, last night apparently. Two men aged 57 and 63 respectively.

If parliamentarians then that rules out anyone from UKIP this time.

^ They might not be able to organise a piss-up in a brewery but at least there's one thing they can do!

Aged 57 and 64.
Thats the grownups at work.

The clever people are focused on minimising the damage all round.

Is this a reference to civil servants? If so, we can see what happens when their suggestions don't match the dreams of the politicans heading their departments. I don't need to talk what has been going on lower down the pecking order, you can read any newspaper to see the "grownups" right at the top of the departments being pushed aside when they won't talk unicorns.

I stand corrected, sixty-four.

IGM sorry yes misinterpreted what you said eg the should bit. I thought you were saying that I thought he would resign. My misunderstanding. Having reread what you said from comfort of train, then yes you are correct. But frankly I am lost with this papers issue!

Kelvin - yes but not just them. Partly agree but less concerned about departmental ministers and more by the figure heads like AF

With both the bill and the Irish border we saw two brilliant compromise solutions delivered. Why brilliant? Because both allowed each side to claim some victory while maintaining some wiggle room. The wording was a masterful escpecially re Irish border. Hence my confidence that there are some genuinely brilliant people doing the hard work here. The subtleties are remarkable and show the ability to attempt a win:win. That level of thinking and negotiation skills is way, way above the heads of DD which is why I am less stressed about him and his lies and incompetence.

So still comfortable that progress will be made. Just fed up by the pace and the 24/7 BS that surrounds it

Are both sides making it up as they go along? For sure. That’s one reason why it’s so compelling(ly awful) 😉

What a great joy the last day has been.

The EU has been getting some of it’s own medicine.

Long have we been hearing about how just one of the 27 can veto a deal or how Verhofstat and the MEPs can vote down a deal agreed by Barnier, Tusk and Junket

Now the EU can see crystal clear that the same applies to the UK.

Bravo the DUP although this text would have been voted down by the Tories too as Ruth Davidson made clear today

“The Bill”. I assume people have seen that the EU has conceded that any payments it may receive will be “as and when due” and nothing will be paid upfront.

No deal, no money.

How about we do our own impact assessments for the industries we work in.

I'll start. UK housing.

Land - should be ok
Materials - mostly ok. Nordic timber could be a bit of an issue. Bricks in short supply.
Staff - currently about 20% EU and stuffed without them. Attempts to train UK staff have repeatedly failed to produce numbers needed.
Legislation - not particularly integrated anyway.
Export - we don't export houses.

Overall - mostly ok unless economy tanks and people cant afford to buy new houses. However we'll be luck to build 200000 a year and not a hope of the proposed 300000 units.

Nice spinning Jamba

In any normal world Davis would be on the back benches by Friday.
I bet he isn’t though, because Brexit (despite a load of good work behind the scenes by talented bureaucrats from Whitehall and elsewhere) is only being held together by PR.
And the PR would struggle to survive Davis getting sacked.

No deal, no money.

That's not what Hammond said. Where are you getting your version from?

jambalaya - Member

“The Bill”. I assume people have seen that the EU has conceded that any payments it may receive will be “as and when due” and nothing will be paid upfront.

No deal, no money.

Nope - exactly 100% wrong. What we agreed is to pay our debts ad future commitments ( or some of them) Not accepted by the EU side anyway from what I see.

There is real concern about drug availability and cost post brexit.

Graphs on p38 an eye opener …

I don’t normally bother with the Torygraph, but this is bang in. Great headline too

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/06/shameless-david-davis-just-jay-inbetweeners-suit/ ]Shameless David Davis is just Jay from the Inbetweeners in a suit[/url]

I guess this is what Jamba is taking his view from

This is what Philip Hammond, the chancellor, told the Treasury committee about the UK’s “Brexit bill” payments not being conditional on the UK getting a trade deal.

Asked if the exit payments would be conditional on there being a future trade deal, he replied:

Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed in this negotiation. But I find it inconceivable that we as a nation would be walking away from an obligation that we recognised as an obligation. That’s just not a credible scenario. That’s not the kind of country we are. And frankly it would not make us a credible partner for future international agreements.

As if things weren't going badly enough, No10 slaps down Hammond. PMOS: "Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed, and that applies to the financial settlement".

So the rats are still fighting in a sack. Hammond clearly understands the situation. No 10 has to appease the rabids. They cannot even get a consistent line out between them

One thing is 100% certain without agreeing to pay unconditionally no deal will be granted.

Now the EU can see crystal clear that the same applies to the UK.

Irish Forign minister

Simon Coveney

Ireland like UK wants to move Brexit to phase 2, where we will support a comprehensive EU-UK trade deal facilitating barrier free, seamless trade. But we must finalise Phase 1 issues credibly first. Our asks r not unreasonable but are important

Now the EU can see crystal clear that the same applies to the UK.

apart from the fact for the EU agreement has to be reached in the parli8ament and individual legislatures.

In the UK its between tiny unrepresentative factions

Nope - exactly 100% wrong.....Not accepted by the EU side anyway [b]from what I see[/b].

😀

But thank you TJ for posting evidence (Irish quote) that refutes your argument about progress and ability and willingness to get a deal done. 100% correct, no really.

You see how much more entertaining it is when you don't have a kilfille. Imagine missing these pearls of wisdom ;-). Keep 'em coming

Yeah because Britain not paying is exit bill is exactly what you'd do if you wanted to laugh yourself as a global trading powerhouse .

As if the Brexie delusions of grandeur weren't baffling enough, we have migrated like this !

Davis is the perfect example of a brexiter; confused, deceitful and way out of his depth.

Indeed. If we don't pay the bill who will ever trust us to uphold a treaty.

He might be out if his depth but he understands what the deal s about better than you guys judging by those comments,

Unlike the gNats who were prepared to renage on their obligations, we have agreed to honour them. But more comedy gold and wonderful irony!

I would love to say to David Davis' face what he should do with his Brexit, but I don't think I could stand the sight of him trying to shove it up his elbow and wondering what he is doing wrong.

Oh, and Jamby, ninfan et al.

Your other mate is currently in front of the world's media trying to provoke a war in the Middle East whilst proclaiming to work in the interests of peace.

You couldn't make this shit up.

What's a bigger shambles - Brexit or the White House?

Downing Street has dismissed Philip Hammond’s claim that the UK will definitely pay a “Brexit bill” to the EU as it leaves even if it does not get a trade deal. (See 4.41pm.) Giving evidence to the Commons Treasury committee, Hammond argued that the UK would not be a credible country if it did not pay its debts. But Number 10 said that they were working on the basis that “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”, and that this applied to finance too. This is an important faultline because Tory Brexiters think the UK should only pay the EU in return for a good trade deal, while the EU insists the financial settlement and the future trade relationship should not be linked.

And who holds all the cards? all that Mays statement will do ( apart from appease the rabids on the back benches) is harden the EUs position and to ensure that they get the payment agreement in cast iron before any trade talks.

tomd - Member
It's getting completely surreal. Just sickened by it all now.

Maybe we'll all wake up tomorrow from some sort of Red Dwarf style "Despair Squid" hallucination and everything will be ok.

In the latest from Iain Duncan Smith...

RECAP: Nice man Edna Kelly was helping develop a border droneforce but he was forced out by Leo Veradkar who is now under pressure in a vote of no confidence from Sinn Fein President Michael D Higgins

😆

DD - there's so much wrong with IDS's statement it's difficult to know where to start. Good ol' "Edna", eh..?

DD - there's so much wrong with IDS's statement it's difficult to know where to start. Good ol' "Edna", eh..?

It's not an actual quote! 😯

Although, it's not that far off the shite he was spouting the other day as he explained to the Channel 4 newsreader how a presidential election was driving the Irish government position.

Of all the current Heads of State floating about at the moment Michael D. is the only one I'd credit with actual integrity.

Not surprising Ireland wants free trade, that's the easy one, especially as they are deeper into fiscal dumping than the UK. The free trade talks will hit serious trouble with half a dozen of the 27, you'll see if ever a border in St george's channel solves the Irish issue.