[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

So how do you solve the border issue?

Spot checks, just like it’s operated for decades, see video above

yet he reckons he has the simple solution whereas people actually from the affected areas don't? Is that true?

You tell me why it has to be any more difficult than the border between Switzerland and France,

go on, you tell me.

I’ve crossed that border a couple of dozen times, never had to stop once, even on the main roads never mind the back roads

Edit:

Ninfan - there are no customs checks at the NI border now.

Simply not true, customs do spot checks, as in the video above

Kimbers - I very much doubt they will get a deal unless they cave in to everything including the ECJ and a border in the irish sea - which will not get thru parliament unless they can somehow get labour on board which UIMO will only be for remaining in the single market / CU which I just cannot see May offering

You tell me why it has to be any more difficult than the border between Switzerland and France,

^Ninfan. I'm not aware that either the Swiss or the French were killing each other's border officers in recent history.

It'd be a brave man / woman that wants to man a border post (even intermittently) between ROI and NI.

So hard border at the NI border then. Vetoed by Dublin. No deal.

France / Switzerland - they have regulatory convergence so no smuggling possibilities and as Switzerland is both landlocked and very tightly controlled no migration issues

How are you going to stop migration over the NI border? Fred from Poland can easily travel to the republic legally,. Nothing to stop him at the NI border. Yes - he is now in the UK

Edit - spot checks will not do. Its OK now while we are both in the EU but once we are out then spot checks is simply insufficient. What % of trucks crossing the border will you "spot check"?

[quote=teamhurtmore ]Why do people also fall for the £350m tactic that Bojo and ninfan have both recently fallen back on? Its neither true from an accounting nor a cash flow perspective. It is a lie. Nothing more, nothing less. Just ignore it. Don’t give it the oxygen it requires otherwise you allow their tactic to succeed.

Fall for it? I'm simply pointing out that as you say it's a lie. Repeatedly. That's not really allowing any tactic to succeed - it's simply pointing out that ninfan is posting something which is a lie. Repeatedly. Something which I'm amused to see ninfan has now admitted to.

You tell me why it has to be any more difficult than the border between Switzerland and France,

go on, you tell me.

How would I know?

I'm not an Irish, NI or EU politican or businessman. So I am not aware of the issues. But then, as far as I know neither are you. I wouldn't presume to know how to solve their problems and I certainly wouldn't dismiss them out of hand. So why are you?

which is a lie

No, as pointed out it’s an officialy published government statistic which was presented in a way that some people found to be misleading without additional information

You know, like promising a referendum before approving the EU constitution wasn’t a broken promise, because they left the contents fundamentally the same, but changed the title to the Lisbon Treaty,

I wouldn't presume to know how to solve their problems and I certainly wouldn't dismiss them out of hand. So why are you?

Because I’ve sucessfully exported goods both into and out of the EU, across a land border, without a problem.

Ninfan - border solutions that are actually practical and will be acceptable to all parties

Ninfan - border solutions that are actually practical and will be acceptable to all parties

The border solution in Switzerland appears to be acceptable to the EU

[quote=ninfan ]No, as pointed out it’s an officialy published government statistic which was presented in a way that some people found to be misleading without additional information

No, it isn't, it's a lie. Nowhere in the official statistics does it say that we send £350m a week to the EU, because we don't.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to point out that you're lying again though.

Ninfan - are you suggesting then like Switzerland we keep all EU regs then? How are you going to stop migration over an open border?

DD, apologies but still trying to get by head round this badly!

is this right?

Níl sé Eire ach ta sé Éire??

lying

I’m sure the mods will be running along to crack down on such an egregious personal insult aracer, you know, to prove that they apply rules consistently

Nowhere in the official statistics does it say that we send £350m a week to the EU

As already detailed, yes, it does, it’s officially recorded as an transaction. Stop lying

Because I’ve sucessfully exported goods both into and out of the EU, across a land border, without a problem.

A boot full of Semtex and a crate of AK-47's?
A body on the way to be buried in a shallow grave on the moors?

A 'hard border' in Ireland isn't just about checking the paperwork on the milk deliveries

There's just a little bit of history, and a whole world of symbolism

Well done on demonstrating an equal understanding of the issue to Theresa's 😆

Good Friday agreement for Ninfan:

(ii) the removal of
security installations;

This is the paragraph that the Tories have failed to honour in entering a pact with the DUP. You can't pander to the DUP and claim to be imparatial, and that the NI assembly is acting impartially. The British government is overiding the NI assembly at the behest of the DUP.

(v) affirm that whatever choice is fr
eely exercised by a majority of the
people of Northern Ireland, the power
of the sovereign government with
jurisdiction there shall be exercised w
ith rigorous impartiality on behalf of
all the people in the diversity of their
identities and traditions and shall be
founded on the principles of full resp
ect for, and equality of, civil,
political, social and cultural rights, of
freedom from discrimination for all
citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the
identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities;

I read the full text after an interview with Kelly on TV a few months back. The concerns he expressed with regard to non-compliance with the agreement as a result of Brexit are legitimate.

tjagain - Member

Ninfan - are you suggesting then like Switzerland we keep all EU regs then? How are you going to stop migration over an open border?

The border solution in Switzerland appears to be acceptable to the EU

with full customs checks in place. Spot checks to make sure cars aren't carrying illegal goods (food!)

Because I’ve sucessfully exported goods both into and out of the EU, across a land border, without a problem.

So you're an expert in it all now then?

Troll, troll, troll, troll, troll… wouldn't be an issue if we didn't have government ministers repeating the same lie.

Nowhere in the official statistics does it say that we send £350m a week to the EU

The truth is rarely as simple as this. But It is simple this time. This is the truth.
We do not send £350 million per a week to the EU (yet).

ninfan - Member

As already detailed, yes, it does, it’s officially recorded as an transaction. Stop lying

It isn't and can't be for a number of reasons:

1. we're actually supposed to pay ~£360m per week, so £350m can;t be recorded as a transaction.

2. To be a transaction, that amount of money to be transacted would have to be officially recorded and sent on a specific date. Given that the rebate is applied automatically to each payment made to the EU and that the actual amount (in 2016) is ~£242m, how can this be

officially recorded as an transaction

Of course we send €350m to the EU, each week!

Borris Johnson personally delivers caseloads of €100 notes to Brussels every Thursday 😕

You see that's the problem with giant lies written on a bus, even now some people actually believe it *

* either that or just enjoy trolling people on stw !

(ii) the removal of security installations;

You get the difference between security installations and (ieven if you used them) border checkpoints, right?

To be a transaction, that amount of money to be transacted would have to be officially recorded

Would it perchance be officially recorded as a debit on the published list of official transactions between the U.K. and the institutions of the EU?

If you look a couple of pages back, you’ll find that it is. Hope that helps.

[quote=ninfan ]

lying

Why, have you reported it? 😆 It's not a personal insult at all, simply a factual statement - you said something which was a lie, therefore you were lying. I'm making no implication at all there about your character, people are free to make up their own minds about that based upon the available evidence.

Nowhere in the official statistics does it say that we send £350m a week to the EU

As already detailed, yes, it does, it’s officially recorded as an transaction. Stop lying

I'm not lying. That is a lie. You're good at this aren't you?

You still don't seem to understand accounts - the appearance of a figure on them doesn't imply a transaction. As I asked earlier using your analogy, does the gross figure on your payslip mean that there has been a transaction of that amount between your employer and your bank? (no, I'm not expecting an answer to that, I will enjoy watching you avoid the question though)

You still don't seem to understand accounts - the appearance of a figure on them doesn't imply a transaction

Then, as above, why did the government publish it as a transaction? 😆

Kimbers - I very much doubt they will get a deal unless they cave in to everything

While I have the utmost faith in Theresa May & her clueless Brexiter colleagues to completely **** things up, at some point the EU will take pity on us and throw us some trifles dressed up as a deal of sorts.

The brexies, even the DUP know that if they blow out Labour are laughing, so fear will keep them in line even if it means huge concessions, as I said they were always gonna have to face the real world at some point.

[quote=ninfan ]Then, as above, why did the government publish i5 as a transaction

cite

What value was the transaction between your employer and your bank?

So ninfan's not Irish or Northern Irish, yet he reckons he has the simple solution whereas people actually from the affected areas don't?

Although mine does have the advantage of being more likely to annoy the DUP. Which given the bung they took to influence brexit is well worth it.

Want to answer Ninfan?

tjagain - Member

Ninfan - are you suggesting then like Switzerland we keep all EU regs then? How are you going to stop migration over an open border?

Aracer - stop flogging a dead horse

cite

See the pink book - read the title and weep.

[img] [/img]

Also published on tab 9.9 of the pink book by ONS here:

ONS.GOV.UK "https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/compendium/unitedkingdombalanceofpaymentsthepinkbook/2015-10-30/unitedkingdombalanceofpaymentsthepinkbook/pinkbook2015chapter9_tcm77-422053.xls"

[quote=tjagain ]Aracer - stop flogging a dead horse

Don't be rude about ninfan like that.

The border solution in Switzerland appears to be acceptable to the EU

[quote=ninfan ]See the pink book

😆 - I note the negative "transactions" on there and the total "transactions" on there - hint, just because it says "transactions" at the top doesn't make every figure on there a transaction! You still don't seem to understand accounting.

Níl sé Éire ach tá sé Éire

I get the difference between "border" and "security" checkpoints, Ninfan, but in the context of NI I don't think you can make that distinction. Any kind of check at the border will be seen as both. You only have to ask to see ID and it is effectively both.

Ninfan
You tell me why it has to be any more difficult than the border between Switzerland and France, go on, you tell me.
I’ve crossed that border a couple of dozen times, never had to stop once, even on the main roads never mind the back roads

will be seen as

Ah, will be seen as... right.

Like those infamous hard borders between The EU and Lichtenstein

Ninfan - care to answer?

Ninfan - are you suggesting then like Switzerland we keep all EU regs then? How are you going to stop migration over an open border?

Foster refusing to meet with May today

when the Tories **** up, they do it in style !

My most pressing concern about brexit is will I need a visa for travelling to races ? 🙂

Like those infamous hard borders between The EU and Lichtenstein

And again ninfan manages to derail discussions on 2 fronts by arguing over semantics and his deliberate misreading of accounts.

If solutions were so simple we would have got there by now. Either that or the government is refusing to implement them. Which is it and why have we wasted all this time.

Simply not true, customs do spot checks, as in the video above

If you read the comments below the video you posted you'd know that

A ) what they are doing is a VRT (Vehicle Registration Tax) check not "customs", they are pulling northern reg cars with Irish insurance discs.

B ) everyone was mightily pissed off about it

Hello ninfan - care to answer my question?

ninfan - Member
Ninfan - border solutions that are actually practical and will be acceptable to all parties
The border solution in Switzerland appears to be acceptable to the EU

[TJ, not your dancing monkey... I ought to just leave you screaming for attention, as I’ve been busy answering far more interesting posts than yours.

However

Switzerland hasn’t adopted all EU regs,

see here: https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/

[i]The Swiss relationship with the EU is different to Norway’s.
It’s also got a trading relationship through the European Free Trade Association, without being part of the European Economic Area.
This also involves taking on EU laws. But instead of laws constantly flowing into its legal system, [u]it negotiates new treaties or amends old ones in return for access to the single market and other EU activities.[/u] Some of the important treaties are linked, so that if Switzerland or the EU pulls out of one, the others also collapse.
This system means that Switzerland doesn’t formally lack control over its own laws.[/i]

Happy now?

How are you going to stop migration over an open border?

like at present?

[i]You do not need to have a passport in order to enter the other country. However, all air and sea carriers require some form of identification and some regard a passport as the only valid identification. Immigration authorities may also require you to have valid official photo-identification which shows your nationality. As you are being asked to prove that you are an Irish or UK citizen who is entitled to avail of the Common Travel Area arrangements, it is advisable to travel with your passport.[/i]

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/common_travel_area_between_ireland_and_the_uk.html

Or would you call that a “hard border”?

I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone backed into so many corners at once as ninfan!

It is a perfect metaphor for the 'negotiations' as a whole (and I cannot even conceive of a time when I won't be using quotation marks around the word 'negotiations').

The 'negotiations' really are nothing of the sort. They are merely window dressing for a humiliating climb down by the UK. A climb-down that May can't sell to the nasties in her own party.

If a cliff edge Brexit is really on the cards there will be a second referendum - only the real lunatics would want to turn the UK into economic scorched earth out of spite.

It is irreconcilable and it would save an awful lot of bother if we just asked Barnier et al really nicely if they will take us 'back'.

How are you going to stop migration over an open border?

We don't need to. Migration isn't a problem anymore.
342k people are leaving every year.

Let's take the money saved on border security and spend it on our NHS instead. 😉

Ruthy Tank Commander wades into battle

https://twitter.com/RuthDavidsonMSP/status/937972391577341952

The tory order of priority seems to be Self > Party > Country

Ninfan - so no answers then. There is not a hard border between the republic and the UK as we are both in the EU.

How are you going to stop migration fromn the EU to the UK across an open border?

That would be Lichtenstein who are part of the Schengen Area

I fail to see the relevance of Schengen area to the U.K./Ireland border situation 😆

There is not a hard border between the republic and the UK [u]as we are both in the EU[/u]

Because we joined the EU in 1923 I presume?

[img] [/img]

The SNP’s Peter Grant says Theresa May is today being interviewed for the job of Scotland football manager because of her ability “to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory”.

Switzerland hasn’t adopted all EU regs,

So how do you think the "regain sovereignty" lot will handle that?

Also published on tab 9.9 of the pink book by ONS here:

Stepping away from petty nitpicking over semantics for a moment, I am quite pleased to see Ruth Davidson speak up for a pragmatic solution to the impasse.

Her statement is not going to be well received by the Conservative backbench Brexiteers, but if SNP, Labour, Tory moderates and Plaid are aligned on this then I wonder what the next steps are, will there be emergency debate in Parliament?

The real problem for May is of course that her credibility is shot with the EU negotiators now. She offered them a deal, they accepted it than she retracted her offer. Who is going to believe a word she says after that?

I fail to see the relevance of Schengen area to the U.K./Ireland border situation

She offered them a deal, they accepted it than she retracted her offer.

only the real lunatics would want to turn the UK into economic scorched earth out of spite.

You've seen the people we're talking about here, right?

They've continually doubled down on the 'no deal is better than a bad deal' BS

They actively want no deal, so that in the resulting economic meltdown they can then effectively declare economic Martial law*, and force through policies that would have been unthinkable under anything remotely resembling normality. They're unhinged hard-right zealots following some Ayn Rand inspired 'Creative Chaos' theory, and May is letting them call the shots because she is so pitifully weak

* They have already ensured themselves the [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/repeal-bill-latest-news-eu-law-corrections-no-commons-vote-mps-say-theresa-may-conservatives-labour-a7839016.html ]powers to do this[/url]

She offered them a deal, they leaked a draft version and in doing so scuppered it

FTFY

Nope - thats not how it happened. You should know that.

they leaked a draft version

You have evidence of this?

May had cerdibility with the EU?

Pity at best, you cant look at Johnson, Davis Mogg etc and not feel a bit sorry for her!

You have evidence of this?

The fine upstanding Sammy Wilson said it on the radio.

[quote=tjagain ]Ninfan - so no answers then.

You were expecting some? I do at least understand what I'm going to get when "negotiating" with ninfan, and set out my positions accordingly!

[quote=tjagain ]Nope - thats not how it happened. You should know that.

Maybe he does. Which would make that statement...

[img] ?w=540&ssl=1[/img]

These are the tweets that caused the problems, the first set alot of hares running in the press, despite it being retracted four minutes later. The DUP decided to shoot those hares.

if only the hand-wringing lefties of stw had predicted that getting in to bed with the DUP was a stupid idea....

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/conservative-coalition-with-dup

I do wonder how an RTE reporter got that exclusive draft wording...

The DUP decided to shoot those hares.

You can imagine the phone call after reading those tweets - “we’re being ******* done over here, you can poke your agreement”

What appears to be funnier is the gradual, sinking realisation in the Irish govt that the EU is going to compromise on something tha5 doesn’t give them the guarantees that they said were a ‘red line’. Still, I suppose a 40bn hole in the EU budget was always going to take precedence over the inhabitants of craggy island

What appears to be funnier is the gradual, sinking realisation in the Irish govt that the EU is going to compromise on something tha5 doesn’t give them the guarantees that they said were a ‘red line’. Still, I suppose a 40bn hole in the EU budget was always going to take precedence over the inhabitants of craggy island

wow do you dislike the irish that much?

An the Irish hold a veto over any deal

An the Irish hold a veto over any deal

You can imagine the phone call after reading those tweets - “we’re being ******* done over here, you can poke your agreement”

Not really, politicians are concerned about the perception of the deal as much as the detail, the press were reporting that the DUP had been sold out and that perception is clearly unacceptable to them. Everyone will grandstand for a few days to prove they can't be pushed around, talks will hang by a thread, and then an agreement will be reached.

Good article in today's Guardian by Fintan O'Toole, stating the bleeding obvious conclusion to those Brexit idiots who still refuse to face up to reality....

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/dec/04/hard-brexiters-britain-weaker-ireland-brexit-talks-irish-border-lesson ]Hard Brexiters have just discovered Britain is weaker than Ireland[/url]

[i]It was always stupid to turn the border issue into a face-off between mighty Britain and little Ireland. But that’s how the hard Brexiters and their Tory press allies chose to construe it.

Having done so, they might now ask themselves: if, for the first time in 800 years, Ireland is proving to be in a much stronger political position than Britain, what does that say about what Brexit is doing to Britain’s strength? It is being forced to accept what it claimed to be unacceptable, not because Ireland has suddenly become a global superpower but because it has the unflinching support of EU member states, the European parliament, and the EU negotiating team. There might be a lesson in there somewhere for a country facing a future without the allies it has long taken for granted.[/i]

Yorkshire is having none of these issues.

Yorkshire is having none of these issues.

What? You mean Lancashire is paying for the wall?

What? You mean Lancashire is paying for the wall?

We already have our wall in York, just needs patching in places...

According to the news, David Davis has suggested that "Regulatory Alignment" could be applied across the UK as part of compromise. Apparently, this isn't the same as a wholesale adoption of EU regulations.

Would someone be able to explain the difference and how it would work?

Would someone be able to explain the difference and how it would work?

I think the theory is the UK's rules are not the same as the EU's but the outcome is, where necessary.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/dec/05/theresa-may-struggles-to-rescue-brexit-deal-as-dublin-says-it-wont-back-down-politics-live?page=with:block-5a26a3f183311a066ae8add5#block-5a26a3f183311a066ae8add5

Th G also notes yesterday's doc said this would happen regardless of the outcome of trade talks (but for the whole UK is a condition of ...).

Lots of semantic fudge. It's another cave-in basically.

[i]EU official on DD's suggestion that whole of UK will align with EU regs. "The UK will not have any say on the decisions taken in Brussels and will basically implement them without having any influence over them... it makes the UK kind of a regulatory 'protectorate" of Brussels'".[/i]

I like the phrase regulatory protectorate.

It's what the leavers would have wanted.