[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

ninfan - Member
we are in a negotiation
Yeah, but we hold no cards, the EU holds them all,

that’s why the U.K. had to cave in today and the Irish got the guarantees they wanted.

The Irish dont want a hard border, fine... now perhaps someone could tell me again how [b]holding up negotiations and increasing the chance of no deal (which we are willing to walk away with, because as we said from the start, it’s better than a bad deal) helps deliver that[/b]?

The mistake you make here (and so does, bizarrely, a Tory PM) is because you don't understand their position.
The DUP [b]don't want a deal[/b]. This isn't a commerce thing for them. They only want money to help them win votes.

I've had some contract negotiation training and will be the first to admit that I'm no expert, but have sat around the table in big public sector deals that my firm has tried to broker and tried to find that viewpoint of my client, the "golden bridge".

So, the DUP can't possibly go back to their base and say: we took you a step closer to a United Ireland today, and escape unscathed at the next election. With the DUP- there's no golden bridge available in having any unity between the North and South that differs from that between the North and mainland.

I dont know if its too much of a stretch to say that they would be risking their lives to even suggest so. I'm regularly in Belfast these days and the murals tell the story.

Or that Nigel Farage isn’t currently in exile for daring to lead the rebellion

all those crown dependencies and other assorted offshore havens .

The FT is reporting that Tory MPs are once again judging people by their own standards and suggesting that Theresa offers the DUP more money to play ball.

“Like a vending machine for political solutions”

I don’t think they really understand Oirish politics 😆

dissonance - I strongly disagree. The UK government could call theose tax havens to account if it wanted and could do plenty to stop the tax avoidance but it doesn't want to. those various crown dependencies are the bigget tax avoidence players

binners - Member
The FT is reporting that Tory MPs are once again judging people by their own standards and suggesting that Theresa offers the DUP more money to play ball.

I don’t think they really understand Oirish politics

POSTED 2 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

They'd need a lot to buy new identities and plastic surgery all-round.

They just don’t get it, do they? They think it’s about money. I spent a lot of time over there at the height of the troubles. They’ve absolutely no idea, or no respect, for what they’re playing with! (Probably both)

I just hope their total cultural insensitivity and incompetence don’t take us back to that

It seems like they’re being wilfully ignorant. But that pretty much sums up Brexit. A celebration of stupidity

Regardless of your view on brexshit, the agreement is astounding. They thought it would be ok and didnt think to run it past the NI MP’s!!

Incompetence beyond words.

The FT is reporting that Tory MPs are once again judging people by their own standards and suggesting that Theresa offers the DUP more money to play ball.

“Like a vending machine for political solutions”

I don’t think they really understand [s]Oirish[/s] politics

FTFY.

If that's true, it suggests that HM Government is royally shitting itself.

That'll be an 'alternative view' that has just been made up by ninfan and released onto the Internet to acquire the status of 'truth'.

You’re probably giving Zulu a bit too much credit there as I’m sure I heard the upstanding Sammy Wilson ([i]“Taigs don’t pay rates.”[/i]) on the radio earlier saying much the same thing in one of his “you can’t trust those Fenians in any negotiation” type tirades.

He’s an absolute top bloke that Sammy Wilson. When you’re getting your opinions from him, you really need to have a think. 😆

there is no payment large enough to make the DUP give up their Britishness

The UK government could call theose tax havens to account if it wanted

How exactly, given that the U.K. government has zero constitutional power in them?

I can only imagine how much you would scream if the U.K. govt started throwing its weight around on issues devolved to the Scottish government.

The UK government could call theose tax havens to account if it wanted and could do plenty to stop the tax avoidance but it doesn't want to

Britain is increasingly being presented as the dirty-dealing, tax-cheating black sheep of Europe

In the context of today’s news that is truly brilliant

They are by far the most British people in the British Isles. There is nobody more British than the DUP. 😆

Jeez, what a bunch of muppets. They really have backed themselves into a corner. Sinn Féin must be pissing themselves - they haven’t had to do a thing.

deadlydarcy - Member

They are by far the most British people in the British Isles. There is nobody more British than the DUP.

Jeez, what a bunch of muppets. They really have backed themselves into a corner.

What was it she said. That they absolutely would not accept any deal that meant NI was treated differently from the rest of the UK?

So, not even a much better deal? The DUP absolutely and resolutely will not accept any deal which benefits the people of Northern Ireland. They absolutely will insist on exactly the same terms as the rest of the uk even if it means dire consequences for everyone on the island of Ireland.

More stellar leadership from the woman who (literally) burned 500 million pounds worth of public money, most of which ended up suspiciously enough heating Free P churches and farms and business run by senior DUP members, Orange Order members and Free P clergy.

I’ve noticed the total silence from Sinn Féin. They must be literally laughing themselves to pieces watching this shitstorm unfold

I’d love to see them rock up at Westminster tomorrow morning to take their seats. Just for shits and giggles 😆

Well Ireland have agreed to tax Apple but Gibralta is doing nothing about AIRB&B.

http://www.lemonde.fr/entreprises/article/2017/12/04/l-irlande-va-collecter-les-arrieres-d-impots-exiges-a-apple-par-bruxelles_5224408_1656994.html

agreed is a bit strong didnt the EU have to take them to court and the opposed

Forced is more accurate but I agree no one is forcing the UK to tax its tax avoiders as we are amongst the worst in the world for this

[url= https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4571/38807389022_36068bc937_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4571/38807389022_36068bc937_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/228h1Jb ]DQOxk-RXcAg78a1[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/151687774@N05/ ]james anderson[/url], on Flickr

Wasn’t it Juncker who when asked about Britain becoming a tax haven, noted ‘it already is’

True, but coming from the former President of Luxembourg.....

The EU must be truly thanking Dave for instigating this whole debacle and making it look, by far, the least worst option

What was it she said. That they absolutely would not accept any deal that meant NI was treated differently from the rest of the UK?

But the DUP don't count trivial issues like abortion and blasphemy which are crimes in NI but not in GB...

I love the cartoon, summed up perfectly.

[url= https://theulsterfry.com/featured/pick-your-own-brexit-plan-unveiled-by-british-government/ ]Pretty much sums up today’s utter farce[/url]

[img] [/img]

So if the leavers aren’t getting what they thought they voted for and the ‘remoaners’ think it’s a shit idea anyway, remind me why we are doing this again?

Left field comment - should we have called for a public inquiry immediately after the referendum but before submitting article 50?

It’s a bit of a rhetorical question, mind.

Into why thickos were allowed to have a say?

should we have called for a public inquiry immediately after the referendum but before submitting article 50?

As I’ve said, rhetorical question.

You do have a thing about thickos THM. Give it up, it’s worn thin.

Yes there was a correlation between education and remain, but please feel free to stop labouring it.

We all know already. And it’s just you that mentions it these days.

I don’t. I think they have as much a say as everyone else. They could even post here if they wanted to.

If they only have a few brain cells they would be able to misunderstand everything.

It’s not about ‘thickos’

It’s about lies

However this rolling national catastrophe plays out, to me the definitive image of the whole debacle will be the looks on the ashen faces of this pair of self-serving charlatans when they realised what they’d done

[img] [/img]

And it’s been all downhill since then

I’d happily string the pair of them up!

it’s just you that mentions it these days

It's his obsession the poor dear. Hell it beats having put up an argument though. Along with the Will of the people, and gNats. Oh and don't forget the 'strategic' 😯 whilst ignoring any difficult question. His 'pal' will be along in a minute just wait and see....

I like the defensive skills of the loyal tories.. It's (nearly) like Australia batting last night, just play your shot and ignore where the ball went, ignore the ref, ignore the commentators, ignore the crowd and keep going.

To take a step back for a moment, TM tacitly acknowledged the divisions in society, immediately before empowering the hard Tory right to exacerbate them. Probably because Brexit is cheaper than fixing society.

But we live in a representative democracy, we vote for people to represent us with the best information and advice. None of us knew the extent of what we’re getting into.

This is why we should’ve had a public inquiry, chaired by experts with no political influence forced upon them.

The thing with the thickos these days is that they take pride in their thickness and ignorance and wear it as a badge of honour - I was embarrassed to be a thicko and did something to try and change it.

Nice obsession you are developing there MH

Regarding thickos , my mum voted leave as her friend had a Nigerian nurse be nasty to her in hospital.
Another friend who lives in Cornwall voted leave as all the fish caught in Cornish waters have to go off to a central eu fish market and then sold back to us.

A relative voted Leave because he had “had enough of bloody commissioners from bloody Bombay telling us all what to do”.

It’s dead easy to laugh at the stupidity, but equally we should’ve committed to addressing those societal divisions that precipitated this, long ago.

teamhurtmore - Member
Nice obsession you are developing there MH

How about offer Scotland “regulatory alignment” in exchange for 35 SNP votes? And DUP can 'do one'.

How about england ( minus london?) just effs off from the UK and the EU and leaves the rest of us in peace and prosperity!

Ahhh the elephant in the room "thicko" conundrum.

Trouble is folks it's more accurate than not.

teamhurtmore - Member
Into why thickos were allowed to have a say?

I was compelled to post....

The thing I don't accept about your 'thickos' schtick is this:

...you are fully committed to Brexit happening because you seem to see no way back from it now. You are determined to carry on with it regardless. Making the best of it is how I think you'd describe it. Fair enough, I can give you that: but only if we factor in some completely imaginary irreversibility of Brexit.

You won't or can't allow for the idea that, if presented with a balanced, logical view of the sheer overwhelming negativity of Brexit, they'd rethink it. It seems that you think that people are undeserving or unable to cope with another chance. That there's no way back as people aren't rational enough to deal with it. That they can't do as you have: divorce your sentiment from your rationality and concentrate on practicalities. And that view to me implies a certain contempt for people.

So, with respect to you- isn't it therefore true that you that are the one implicitly calling people "thick?"

I think that presented with the facts, and the facts alone, many would happily rethink. To think otherwise is to show...a lack of parity.

How about england ( minus london?) just effs off from the UK and the EU and leaves the rest of us in peace and prosperity!

Can Bristol stay too please.

I’d happily string the pair of them up!

I feel sure that bare-faced and demonstrable lying during a political campaign should be illegal. Obtaining a political result under false pretences? Basic fraud?

well said goingslightlymad

They could even post here if they wanted to.

I'm a thicko apparently as I voted for Brexit. The bottom line is that the Tories screwed up, specifically Cameron. Even a thicko like me could see they hadn't thought it through. The devil is in the detail of which there was none. What did the intelligentsia expect?

You won't or can't allow for the idea that, if presented with a balanced, logical view of the sheer overwhelming negativity of Brexit,

Interesting idea. Unfortunately to date we have nothing of the sort to test it with.

Instead we have not only had complete contempt for those who chose to make a different decision but also an endless supply a total tosh to justify ignoring a democratic result. Even the Brexshiteers would blush at a lot of the remoaners BS

So you can dress your contempt for the winners in emotive language but is still comes through load and clear

The devil is in the detail of which there was none. What did the intelligentsia expect?

we have not only had complete contempt for those who chose to make a different decision

Indeed, there's a certain irony seeing Eire so involved in the shenanigans, it's as if there was no history with the Irish public's opinions on the EU...

The collective works that were labelled "project fear" that seem quite accurate.

Not quite reached

"As a historian I fear Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilisation in its entirety,"

yet though have we?

I'm a thicko apparently as I voted for Brexit.

Biggest problem going forward is, somewhat ironically, the Brexiteers whoppers. They’ve already showed how little understanding or concern they have for cultural sensitivities

As he famously said...

[img] [/img]

‘Ever has the feeling you’ve been cheated?!’

Plenty of people, including less rabid Tory MPs are concerned that when ‘the thickos’ realise the extent of the lies and how much they’ve been shafted, there’s only going to be one inevitable result

[img] [/img]

So you can dress your contempt for the winners in emotive language but is still comes through load and clear

There is one good example who keeps talking about "grown ups". As a sign of contempt it really is quite something.

Mike - I took no notice of 'project fear' nor the emblazoned NHS bus but I do recollect hazily the UK joining the EEC as it was then called. It seemed a brilliant idea and did work well but it eventually became something it was not supposed to be. This is why so many voted for Brexit.

Democratic result (over 1000 uses but ignores that joining was a democratic thing which must be respected)
No evidence of anything bad at all (new one I think but still just selective reading)
Contempt for those battling away in union jack y fronts on the front line (yeah hard to not have contempt for a bunch of people who have wasted the UK's limited time and pissed off the bigger party by pretending all the issues were not issues before capitulating on them)

We are getting a clearer "vision" of what comes next, would be a good point to have an opinion as to how it's going unless your opinion was carved into a stone tablet - we all know how that one ends.

I'd welcome those leave voters to pop in and tell us if they think they are getting what they thought they voted for, tell us why leaving is a good idea but also stay to debate it - we mostly get pure fantasy ideas in here from the leave side.

Mike - I took no notice of 'project fear' nor the emblazoned NHS bus but I do recollect hazily the UK joining the EEC as it was then called. It seemed a brilliant idea and did work well but it eventually became something it was not supposed to be. This is why so many voted for Brexit.

Proved the point on the partiality of moderation though haven’t I - bet a tenner you wouldn’t have intervened if anyone called me a liar despite the “No personal insults” rule

Not really. If you're fishing for whether anyone reported you or not, I'm not telling you. I didn't issue the warning, I stopped reading the bollocks spouted on here about 300 pages back. But you carry on making shit up if it makes you happy.

You do have a thing about thickos THM. Give it up, it’s worn thin.

Given that I've explained this a dozen times on this very thread, it's clear to me that THM is either not listening or determined to twist what people say to his own ends. I'm not overly sure which is worse.

we should’ve committed to addressing those societal divisions that precipitated this, long ago.

Bingo, we have a winner.

On the contrary it’s the opposite of the insults (mis)directed at our negotiating team by remoaners on here. Some very smart people accused of being one t short of a thicko by people who struggle with even a basic grasp of what is true and untrue

Mike - I took no notice of 'project fear' nor the emblazoned NHS bus but I do recollect hazily the UK joining the EEC as it was then called. It seemed a brilliant idea and did work well but it eventually became something it was not supposed to be. This is why so many voted for Brexit.

have you ever read the treaty of Rome?

So what was your logic for voting for it?
Also are you still in favour?

I had serious concerns about becoming a United States of Europe, the jostling for power that was going on, the gravy train, concern about some of the countries that joined the EU etc. Importantly though I felt it was costing this country far too much money.

As regards whether I'm still in favour, I look at the Tories and think God help us all.

I'm not overly sure which is worse.

Given that is exactly what you have just done, the answer should be obvious. You didn’t vote leave did you cougar 😉 ?

Plenty of people, including less rabid Tory MPs are concerned that when ‘the thickos’ realise the extent of the lies and how much they’ve been shafted, there’s only going to be one inevitable result

I really don't think there is. The remain "thickos" will either get what they want or simply don't care, and the leave "thickos" will take "undemocratic bureaucrats, corrupt EU, something something brown people" to the grave with them.

"Thickos," generally, on both sides of the argument, are entrenched in their views. That is in part what makes them thick. A wise man can see that he is wrong and revise his opinion. There is no way the extreme brexiters will revise their ideology, not whilst I've got a hole in my arse.

There may well be a small-scale revolt at some point, but it won't be when the populace go "oh shit, we've been lied to," it'll be when a minority of racist knuckle-draggers have their toys taken away from them.

@cg. In the light of what has come to pass, are you still of the opinion we should leave?

My mil is not a thicko but voted leave on the back of financial promises (yes, the bus) and reduced regulation / control from Brx. She feels she was lied to and would if she had her time again, vote differently. That to me is not a sign of being thick..... if anything to continue on the path when it becomes clearer day by day where that path is going, just because of a very close one time vote on poor / misleading arguments on both sides. I find that to be more 'intellectually challenging' than the original decision!

Still, watching the tories unravel kind of makes up for it a bit.

C_g, fair enough, and appreciate your post. I note your use of the word 'felt', but this is observation, not criticism.
Amen to your last. 🙁

concern about some of the countries that joined the EU etc.

Which ones? Why?

Importantly though I felt it was costing this country far too much money.

At least that's working out well for us, we've saved a fortune since A50 was triggered.

I'll come back to this tomorrow, my head hurts from stringing words together. 😳

Night all.

Has anyone added up the cost of all the EU institutions we will need to replace the EU ones? The money we will need to spend to duplicate the work that the EU are doing?

A wise man can see that he is wrong and revise his opinion.

How very true. Given that none of the doomsday predictions have occurred, the wise have time to reveal themselves

Bienvenue a tous....

Problem being project fear was the label from those who disliked experts...

Actually, I think you'll find that it was the label from those who had enough of experts from organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.

You see, because presenting that partial comment regards experts without further explanation is what people would call "being potentially misleading"

molgrips - Member
Has anyone added up the cost of all the EU institutions we will need to replace the EU ones? The money we will need to spend to duplicate the work that the EU are doing?

Actually, I think you'll find that it was the label from those who had enough of experts from organisations from acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.

Its worth repeating, below are the opening articles to the Treaty on European Union. You voted brexit then you voted to reject these values in favour of god knows what. I voted remain because I absolutely and fundamentally do not trust the idiots at Westminster to protect these rights - membership of the EU afforded me this protection, brexiteers have taken this away from me hence I'm still quite cross about the whole thing . The EU is far from perfect but it better than the alternative - we are now at the mercy of whoevers hate filled bilge spouting agenda can be shouted loudest. Well done cinnamon girl.

Article 2

The Union is founded on the values of respect for human dignity, freedom, democracy, equality, the rule of law and respect for human rights, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities. These values are common to the Member States in a society in which pluralism, non-discrimination, tolerance, justice, solidarity and equality between women and men prevail.

Article 3

(ex Article 2 TEU)

1. The Union's aim is to promote peace, its values and the well-being of its peoples.

2. The Union shall offer its citizens an area of freedom, security and justice without internal frontiers, in which the free movement of persons is ensured in conjunction with appropriate measures with respect to external border controls, asylum, immigration and the prevention and combating of crime.

3. The Union shall establish an internal market. It shall work for the sustainable development of Europe based on balanced economic growth and price stability, a highly competitive social market economy, aiming at full employment and social progress, and a high level of protection and improvement of the quality of the environment. It shall promote scientific and technological advance.

It shall combat social exclusion and discrimination, and shall promote social justice and protection, equality between women and men, solidarity between generations and protection of the rights of the child.

It shall promote economic, social and territorial cohesion, and solidarity among Member States.

It shall respect its rich cultural and linguistic diversity, and shall ensure that Europe's cultural heritage is safeguarded and enhanced.

4. The Union shall establish an economic and monetary union whose currency is the euro.

5. In its relations with the wider world, the Union shall uphold and promote its values and interests and contribute to the protection of its citizens. It shall contribute to peace, security, the sustainable development of the Earth, solidarity and mutual respect among peoples, free and fair trade, eradication of poverty and the protection of human rights, in particular the rights of the child, as well as to the strict observance and the development of international law, including respect for the principles of the United Nations Charter.

6. The Union shall pursue its objectives by appropriate means commensurate with the competences which are conferred upon it in the Treaties.

How very true. Given that none of the doomsday predictions have occurred, the wise have time to reveal themselves

Too many pages to read ...

Funny old day. Very positive press conference and warm words from Junker, interesting he chose to point out that it was Tusk who had insisted “no questions from the press”, given most European press only has a passing interest this is clearly an attempt by Tusk to protect May as the alternative for the EU is much much worse.

So I read the draft text which was supposedly agreed by the DUP. “Regulatory alignment” and on specific areas relevant to “NI and Ireland trade” - now that probanly means many things to many people, it’s as vague as “sufficient progress”. I can see the DUP would be happy given the vagueness and assurances from UK Government.

So what changed ? Quite possibly / probably the media reporting. It’s just not acceptable to the DUP voters for the press to be saying NI will remain in the single market / customs union when the UK will not. DUP then had no choice.

Ireland will not block talks, no deal means WTO (a massive killer for them economically, truely catestrophic) and no money for the EU is a deep financial black hole for the 27 -something they face in 2021 have already been arguing about.

Started well then fell over by 2 and 3 (possibly due to 4)

DUP never agreed the text

no deal means WTO (a massive killer for them economically, truely catestrophic)

But great for us, yeah?

Except, they'll qualify for WTO and we won't.

Well done thm, you’ve managed to move yourself in to the ‘skip and ignore’ clutch of posters, lead by chewk, for your constant failure to do anything but fail to answer questions and parrot the same old not as clever as you are think they are lines.

At least ninfan revels in his right wing, swivel eyed nut job persona and that makes him worth reading.

Thanks. I’ll move on to outright lies next week. Do try to fit in 😉

Or perhaps some charm

Well done cinnamon girl.

Nice 😯