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David Davis is loking for litterally any excuse to get away from brexishambles!
Yes, but why so suprised? Wasn't it obvious from the morning after the vote?
"It's not like there was ever a Berlin wall across the N/S Ireland border" i have no personal knowledge of the "Old" border but i have represented some soldiers who were being trained to do the security in a string of "towers" along the border . Armed troops with a high level of surveillance equipment , overt and covert patrols with a green card checklist as to when to shoot to kill. It was not a soft or porous border. (apparently doing Es while on Tower duty is seen as a bad thing allegedly)
Hardly a non-issue. Yes, no-one wants the hard border - but people DO want out of the CU, which would require one. That's the issue.
Yes, no-one wants the hard border
Yup. So who's going to spend cash on creating a physical border checkpoint they don't want when 200m away you can just walk across fields?
but people DO want out of the CU, which would require one.
Why? Who's gonna force the ROI/EU/Britain to put a barrier up, and why?
Why? Who's gonna force the ROI/EU/Britain to put a barrier up, and why?
We voted to take back control of, among other things, our borders.
If anyone can just waltz across the Irish border, having travelled from anywhere they like in the world, where does that leave us?
The people of Calais would love it though.
Me and my wife agreed we did not want to live together this did not then make every thing a Non issue- its an issue because they agree they dont want an actual border but the solutions are complete oppositesTotal non-issue. All three sides agree they don't want a hard border.
1, is we stay in the Eu the other is we leave
I dont know why you need this explaining to you.
Its not its actual physical borders with checks and the notion that folk wont smuggle and be honest is naive in the extreme.Most customs enforcement is intelligence lead.
I dont get why folk think a problem like this , with no obvious solution is going to be solved never mind suggest its a non issue
If we're out of the CU then things can't be allowed in and out freely. That's the point of the CU.
But with a soft border, they would have no-one to stop them. I believe this is the issue.
[quote=deviant ]What do you bring to this country? Unpleasantness and bigotry?
You confuse my political leanings with my character.
I'm generous to a fault even when in debt myself, I'm fiercely loyal to friends and as my. Mother was one of nine children I have a lovely large family.
My grandmother was Guernsey French and had to evacuate from the Germans and my grandfather was Polish and had to escape the Nazis too.
Both immigrants, both intergrated into the village, both worked (no victim mentality with those two tough cookies) and both paid taxes....they were eternally grateful to the UK for taking them in and did all they could to be good citizens and pay the county back....it's not hard is it?....maybe I get my stance on. Immigration from them....it turns my stomach when someone arrives here and starts to demand a mosque to pray in, benefits because the wife doesn't speak English etc....how about a better use of that money to get her intro evening classes, speaking the language and then able to contribute to society....but I'mb going to massively generalise here and say the husband won't let her go to evening classes as she must run the house....huge generalisation over but I hope the point got across, some culture just isn't compatible with ours, some immigrants do all they can to integrate and become British, others are on the take.....don't believe me, there's a video of Macron in despair telling a Moroccan woman that he can't just issue French passports to anyone who wants one..about the only sense I've heard from him since he's been president...maybe, just maybe the leaders of Europe are starting to see that we don't have the infrastructure, schooling, heath, money etc for everyone that wants to come to Europe....god I hope so, Merkel's shenanigans the other year will haunt her for years.
It's not that I'm racist, or xenophobic....for me theres just two types of people in the world...those who work, and those who choose not to work (The disabled obviously get a pass on this)....i don't care if they're British or immigrant, if their idea of living here is claiming benefits and watching tv they can go to hell....whatever passport they have, it's a very nice simple view of things and helps me judge people very quickly because there is something inherently wrong with someone (British or foreigners) who think there is a bottomless pit and just want to take out of it.
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If we're out of the CU then things can't be allowed in and out freely.
They won't be *allowed* in and out freely. People will have to follow whatever procedures are required. ...but you don't need to stop people at the border for that. They can do it online from home.
Some people will break the rules. That happens anyway. If they do it on a big scale they'll get caught. If they do it on a small scale they'll probably get away with it, just like you or I would if we bought something on Ebay from Honk Kong without paying the tax.
If anyone can just waltz across the Irish border, having travelled from anywhere they like in the world, where does that leave us?
Far better off than if we put a hard border in.
for deviant, not that itll change his mind, obviously it was made up long ago
https://fullfact.org/immigration/some-immigration-facts-factchecked/
Deviant's post illustrates the problem with human beings I think.
It's not that we aren't kind and generous. It's that we are kind and generous to 'us' and are far less likely to be kind and generous to 'them'. The problem is where you draw the boundary between 'us' and 'them'.
People who live in London are closer to people in Calais than they are to people in Edinburgh. But somehow, the French are 'them' and 'they' are causing us problems. We complain about the EU doing this and that, but as of now we ARE the EU. There is no 'they' - it's all 'us'.
However Cameron, May &co have created a huge 'them' to reinforce the arbitrary 'them' boundaries people were apparently fixated on the whole time. And with much more 'them' in the world now, it's going to be much easier to be less kind and generous.
Lines on a map - how ****ing stupid.
Its not its actual physical borders with checks and the notion that folk wont smuggle and be honest is naive in the extreme.
What precentage of parcels coming into the UK/EU from outside the EU/UK are actually checked? It's a tiny percentage.
Borders are already leaky, we just tolerate it. Big players get caught.
If either the ROI or the UK think it's worthwhile to do random searches they can just do it infrequently a few miles down the road, flagging people down without a barrier.
You are being incredibly naive if you think either side will accept this as a solution for the border issue.If either the ROI or the UK think it's worthwhile to do random searches they can just do it infrequently a few miles down the road, flagging people down without a barrier.
Its laughably simplistic
You are being incredibly naive if you think either side will accept this as a solution for the border issue.
Which side wouldn't? Are the ROI going to start doing time consuming checks at the border like Spain do with Gibralter when they're in a huff? Why?
Are the UK going to start doing time consuming checks at the border like Spain do with Gibralter when they're in a huff? Why?
It's not the C18th. We don't need Redcoats pushing bayonets into carts of straw.
of course there will be some kind of border between Ireland and the UK , like there is now between france and the uk .
do you really think all import/exports are going to be registered online ? 😆
and what about people ?
Brexit was depressing at first but now it is comedy gold 😆
molgrips - Member
Deviant's post illustrates the problem with human beings I think.
That massive bigots don't think they are massive bigots?
do you really think all import/exports are going to be registered online ?
All? No. So what? Do you think all imports to the EU are tax paid? All those ebay parcels from China?
and what about people ?
What about them? If (say) someone in the UK wanted to get to Ireland they'd just walk over across fields. Once they got to Ireland illegally by walking across the fields they can't get a legit job.
What are you worried about? Muslims? Are you fretting that someone in ISIS would get themsleves by sea or air to Ireland so they can get into the UK? If they can fly to Ireland, they can fly to the Uk. It's a non-issue.
Would you care if someone from the ROI walked into NI today? Is it a concern for you? No? So why would it be a concern in the future?
Our neighbour is ROI not Syria. If we were bordered with (say) Mexico would you want to build a solid wall? Or would you just accept that borders are a little bit fluid?
That massive bigots don't think they are massive bigots?
truer than you'd think. Have a read of a book called: Mistakes were made (but not by us) and it pretty much sums up this problem. Essentially we all think we're decent people, and rationalise in our minds the bits that aren't (decent) It's pretty much how the man who tortures for a living can often go home to be a loving husband and father.
Once they got to Ireland illegally by walking across the fields they can't get a legit job.
Where are “they” from? If it’s the UK they’ll be able to get a job quite legitimately.
Where are “they” from? If it’s the UK they’ll be able to get a job quite legitimately.
Good point.
do you really think all import/exports are going to be registered online ?
Why not, almost all tax apart from PAYE is taken on trust. Almost nobody gets investigated.
big difference between ebay parcels and car manufacturers for example .
people ? all those immigrants you want to get rid off will be able to enter the uk and work illegally , taking jobs away from uk people and driving wages down .
have another 😆
that won't change.
Nor will the level of knowledge of Anglo-Irish affairs displayed both here on this forum and in the wider population. Although a few have had to jump on a steep curve these last few weeks. It’s been entertaining reading. 🙂
Do you think all imports to the EU are tax paid? All those ebay parcels from China?
yes you can post things from china to the uk but if we had an unmanned border with china do you think things more things would be smuggled in - its not exactly the hardest question
Almost nobody gets investigated.
That isn't true! Speaking as an ex-contractor who knows lots of contractors.
big difference between ebay parcels and car manufacturers for example .
You think BMW will smuggle cars in to the UK and sell them illgally in their showrooms without paying tax? Purely because there isn't a man with a clipboard on the NO/ROI border? Really?
people ? all those immigrants you want to get rid off will be able to enter the uk and work illegally , taking jobs away from uk people and driving wages down
A man with a clip board searching every 50th car won't change that, and anyway you can just walk over the fields. Care to support the claim that illegal workers are "taking jobs away from uk people"?
That isn't true! Speaking as an ex-contractor who knows lots of contractors.
I know a lot of contracotrs and I only know one person who has ever beeninvestigated. But if we can investigate contractors tax returns we can certainly stop car manufacturers importing without filling in the right forms.
yes you can post things from china to the uk but if we had an unmanned border with china do you think things more things would be smuggled in - its not exactly the hardest question
Junkyard is going to buld a wall between us and China!!! Who's gonna pay for the wall??? China is!
A border between UK/ROI without guards and a building will cause no bother at all. We know, because we've already got one.
Yes cars manufacturers will try not to pay their tax if they can . Have you not heard of VW , and others cheating the system on emissions ?
if they can get away with it , they will , or at least try .
the job/low wage argument is from the Leave campaign , not me .
if they can get away with it , they will , or at least try Have you not heard of VW , and others cheating the system on emissions ?
So VW will ship thousands of cars to Ireland, then across the sea back to mainland UK and the uk Tax folks won't notice that no duty is being paid at all by VW or that thousands of lorryloads of cars are coming from Ireland, but if a bloke stands with a clipboard by a bulding that is on the border that won't happen.
the job/low wage argument is from the Leave campaign , not me .
Nice try you said:
taking jobs away from uk people and driving wages down .
We know, because we've already got one.
We know the current arrangements are working quite well. The point is what replaces them.
they will declare some of it but will try to save a few £ for sure .
Leavers wont be happy with no border checks for people , that is why they voted Leave ! and one of their argument was the job/wage thing .
But if we can investigate contractors tax returns we can certainly stop car manufacturers importing without filling in the right forms.
You realise that this cuts both ways? You'd be able to import stuff into the EU without the EU knowing too. Imagine a lorryload of beef that comes from the UK to Ireland, someone puts it in packages with 'Irish Beef' written on - no tariff to pay. Lots of things would be pretty difficult to trace I suspect.
The people who run countries are the ones worrying about this. So if they are worried, then there's a problem.
Once the UK has negotiated all these brilliant trade deals then the EU is going to be very keen on enforcing the border.
That is, unless every one of those trade deals ensures that imported goods comply with EU law. With the ECJ having the final say, naturally.
OoB - I preferred you when you were advocating deporting Brexies. 😉
I must say, this whole thing is going entirely as predicted.
oh, and the bus overestimated savings by 571 million per week.
Chris pleae read up on The Common Travel Area between NI and The Republic. It existed before we joined the EEC.
Whatever happens we, the UK, will not put up a physical border. HMRC already confirmed it can implement the UK Govt’s proposals.
The EU is trying to restrict the UK’s ability to sign free trade deals post Brexit and is attempting to use the Irish border as leverage to force the UK into one of its “off the shelf” arrangements.
BTW and IMO the car example above is pointless as the UK / EU will have a zero tariff deal on cars and components and also IMO the UK will agree the same with South Korea, Japan and the US
oh, and the bus overestimated savings by 571 million per week.
@bigrich remember the “brexit bill” is the EU’s view of what we already owe by havig been a member. It’s not a payment to exit but a realisation of the true cost of being a member, ie much more than £363m per week.
But you insisted that there would be nothing to pay and the house of Lords back you up.
The cost of membership also delivers benefits, leaving gives us a bill and nothing back for it.
It’s not a payment to exit but a realisation of the true cost of being a member, ie much more than £363m per week.
Is it not the very opposite+ stuff we'd pledged and voted on to do in the future?
Chris pleae read up on The Common Travel Area between NI and The Republic. It existed before we joined the EEC.
That was then, this is now.
40 years ago was a very different world to the one we live in today. Back then, Poland was somewhere you read about in history books. The idea that refugees from Afghanistan might want to get into the UK to stay with their friends would have been laughable. Driving cheap chinese imports across the border without paying VAT? There weren't any chinese imports, and VAT was mostly 5%.
Can't turn back the clock, sorry.
and the bus overestimated savings by 571 million per week.
If only the brexies had been honest on the bus of lies, then they wouldn't be tying themselves in knots trying to say it's a good thing
so how are you going to stop people coming in ?
and goods ?
jambalaya - Member
HMRC already confirmed it can implement the UK Govt’s proposals.
Can you cite this?
😆It’s not a payment to exit but a realisation of the true cost of being a member, ie much more than £363m per week.
TOO big a lie to fit on a bus and yesterday you were saying it was a great deal as it was just our membership fee for the period we would be in
you dont even agree with what you said when it was announced so how can we debate with you?
As it looks like America is about to correct it's moment of electoral stupidity, can we fix ours?
Chris, we are not. Border will be open.
@mike I read the HoL report, I imagine you did not. It pointed out that any payments would be politcial and balanced by a free trade / transition deal. As I have posted that’s not my preffered option, I want WTO with a nice and clean break. No money paid and EIB gone and our £10bn capital back.
The benefits of being a member were outweighed by the negatives. Hence my vote to leave.
Actually Jamba can you explain your quote re HMRC and the Irish border with HMRC's Director Generals comments last week that they have not done any work on a border with Irelnd, "Appearing before the parliamentary spending watchdog on Monday, HMRC officials were asked how they would monitor the movement of goods and services at 300 crossing points along the border.
Karen Wheeler, HMRC’s director general, said: “That area is not within the scope that we have been working on in the border planning group because the arrangements on Ireland are still subject to negotiations and ministerial discussions.”"
Border will be open.
And how does the EU stop chlorinated hormoned roided up chickens coming in from the US via the UK?
The border will be there but it won't be to keep them out, it'll be to keep us in.
and you think an open border is fine ?
as I said before leavers voted to end freedom of movement , how is it compatible with an open border ?
I am confused .
So did i and it also accepted that other legal opinions were available and were cited and they just preferred the one from that expert who said we owed nothing but we could then be sued. IMHO as a nation we pay our bills to the world as a matter of honour and morality if not the law. you are free to disagree obviously and annoy them to get WTOI read the HoL report,
I dont recall them citing any payment must be quid pro quo with a trade agreement [ nor any legal basis for such a claim] so could you cite the relevant part of the report [ with the numbered point for reference] so we can all see it- its some time since we both read it so happy to be corrected by the facts
did you mean this
137. However, the political and economic consequences of the UK leaving the EU without responding to claims under the EU budget are likely
to be profound. If the UK wants a preferential trading relationship
with EU, including a transitional arrangement, the EU partners may
well demand a financial contribution post-Brexit.
not the same as what you claim as its payment post Brexit for trade- funny how the Brexit bunch never cite that part of the report
so basically cite please
I want WTO with a nice and clean break.
I'm still not convinced you fully grasp what the WTO will except as regards Irish cross border trading if we have no deal with the EU, or the battles ahead at the WTO to get our proposals for our own schedules and quotas agreed.
Also…
Bruce that’s the EU’s problem not ours. Of course currently we can’t do anything about illegally reared Pork from Eastern European EU members.
Yes Chris I do. I posted that months back. Small “price” to pay on the basis the EU won’t play ball.
@Kilo testimony to HoC last week
As I said the UK cannot guaranty an open border on the EU side, we can only control our side. We are “committed” to an open border but we can’t guaranty one.
Jamba, if we fall back on WTO rules only, neither side can realistically keep the border open, on either 'side'. We can not give the Irish/EU preferential tariff rules without a trade deal. Other countries would insist on being treated the same, under "WTO rules".
but end of freedom of movement is one of TM red lines .
unless you intend to be voted next PM , it does not really matter what you think .
I heard a lovely wee story from Irish relatives earlier today:
It is being reported in the domestic press in Ireland, that with progress finally being made on the border issues, perhaps the UK and Ireland have finally buried the hatchet over Brexit.
However, only the Irish know where it's buried....
jambalaya - Member@Kilo testimony to HoC last week
That's an interesting interpretation of HMRC's DG stating they had no idea about the Irish border as I quoted
"Appearing before the parliamentary spending watchdog on Monday, HMRC officials were asked how they would monitor the movement of goods and services at 300 crossing points along the border.
Karen Wheeler, HMRC’s director general, said: “That area is not within the scope that we have been working on in the border planning group because the arrangements on Ireland are still subject to negotiations and ministerial discussions.”"
@kelvin I have a lot of experience in global trade finance (Standard Chartered where I worked for 11 years along with HSBC and Citi dominate trade finance) . The EU’s biggest trade partners operate under WTO. This whole “crashing out” and “cliff edge” stuff is just media / Remainers nonsense. The biggest tarifs are on agricultural products and we can buy those elsewhere once outside the EU if we chose, tariff free if and when we sign deals. The EU has trade deals with 60 countries most of them tiny and not major trading counterparts. The big ones operate under WTO.
Does the DUP announcement mean that if there is an agreement for an open border in NI but not at Dover, then we’re looking at another election?
Could be.
Jamba, are you going to address my point as regards trade across the Irish border on "WTO rules", and that it isn't in our remit to treat it as either an open, or tariff free, border?
The EU’s biggest trade partners operate under WTO
Want to list the countries that trade solely on WTO rules?
I have a lot of experience in global trade finance
So not global trade then.
Jamba - I’m sure you’re a bright guy, but finance is a relatively simple game. Trade, particularly in a time of flux and new products and standards is not. With Brexit we are giving up a lot of control of our markets. Previously we had a place at the table on standards and specifications - going forward we will end up accepting EU standards with no say in the matter.
And that sadly is probably unavoidable now - at least without agreeing to be part of a variety of institutions that May has stupidly red lined.
Standard Chartered where I worked for 11 years along with HSBC and Citi dominate trade finance) . ....The biggest tarifs are on agricultural products
Did you oversee many big $$ international turnip deals ?
Aaaaand we've folded again
https://www.ft.com/content/acc6c972-d5c8-11e7-a303-9060cb1e5f44
Bound by ecj rulings but no longer any judges on the court
Brexit really is taking back control 😡
Good news for this morning, if true. Swiss style deal for aviation is very sensible (but gives away control compared to current position, of course).
A non-FT linky: https://news.sky.com/story/govt-to-stay-in-eu-air-safety-body-in-blurring-of-brexit-red-line-11151049
Red line turning pinkish?
Now let’s get working on keeping the four freedoms.
That was a red line too, but it would sort a lot of problems if it also went pink line (or no line).
Just stay out of the Euro. Hopefully we’ll still get the rebate but I guess that’s not definite.
If we are staying in ecj for aviation, then why are we leaving Euratom or EMA?
Because even the lack lustre politicans handling this understand aviation needs sorting a year early. Of course, lots of other industries ideally need that early certainty as well, but aviation is more clean cut. I expect/hope that next summer the idea of paying for, but not having a say in, more bodies, will be on the cards.
so basically , the growns up doing the negociations are just agreeing to keep what is there at the moment ?
i wonder how much they are getting paid for doing it .
That’s because what we’ve got is an excellent deal for Britain.
they seem to be negotiating a dea that is worse than what we have here and wont make either leavers or remainers happy
that really is stellar levels of **** wittery
Er, no Junkyard… that describes any deals that can/could/would/might be arrived at.
There is no alternative for us that is either better, or more popular, than staying in the EU but carving out our own exceptions from within. No A vs B referendum could be won… [i]where A is remaining and reforming, and B is a defined new relationship[/i]… what we had was A vs (B or C or D or unicorns)…[i] where B and C and D are totally conflicting non overlapping new relationships, and the unicorns were impossible cake and eat it deals that fall apart as soon as securitised. [/i]This is why there is no chance of the public being offered the choice between the end deals and remaining in the EU… no one on the Leave side, or wanting to keep the Conservative party in one piece, will risk giving "the people" a real choice to make.
And kelvin is doing that accurate information thing again.
You’re right of course Kelvin but don’t expect it to make you any friends.
We don’t want accuracy we want unicorns.
“Real” choice - do you want to remain members of the EU. Yes or no. How unreal does it get?
Still all moving along despite the moaning. Agencies will be dealt with, bill done who knows the rights of UK citizens in the EU might be addressed. And then trade at last...,
Although a lot of that probably stitched up behind closed doors alread
Still hard Brexshit looking less likely so we should all be happy !!
What about the people who voted wanting a "hard Brexit", and would see something akin to EEA/EFTA, with payments continuing, and our place at decision tables removed, as worse than staying in the EU? We can't "all be happy"… it's not even possible for the majority of Leave voters to be happy with the end deals, is it?
Bespoke deal kelvin, bespoke deal
Get with the program ( awaits bigger boy in slippers) 😉 and note use of conditional tense (“should”)
They can enjoy every day as a learning day
Bespoke deal still means nothing at all… …it only rules out adopting an existing arrangement in its entirety. It clearly doesn't even mean the same thing to government ministers tasked with essential work in forming our new relationships with the EU, WTO, and everyone else.
then we’re looking at another election?
And a genuine leaver in charge of Brexshit not a pretend convert. Best of all we would get a jobs first Brexshit. What’s not to like?
Bespoke deal still means nothing at all… …it only rules existing options out
Indeed. Bespoke.