[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

If by progress being made you mean the UK government backing down on all fronts, then Yes you are right, great progress is happening.
I hope for the UK sake that trade talks won't be the same.

Are we now painting the agreement to 'honour our commitments' as 'progress'?

If it moves us to proper talks - yes very much so.

Welcome back kelvin 😉

The divorce bill was meant to be the easy part wasn't it?

I mean, really?? 🙁

I reckon trade talks will go a bit better now as the UK will be even more of a laughing stock if we do the old "they need us more than we need them" routine again.

Even if we do the EU will just point out a few realities to us again, let us have a tantrum, then cave in again.

teamhurtmore - Member
So is every stage of progress going to be greeted with dismay?

Well probably. By one of the three parties involved anyway.

I hope for the UK sake that trade talks won't be the same.

By 'trade talks' I presume you mean the EU telling us how it's going to be, followed by the phrase "take it or ****in' leave it!"?

At least that shouldn't take too long. Every cloud, eh?

Better than viewing it as new costs!!

At least we've got the Special Relationship to fall back on.....

Is it starting to dawn on people yet what an irrelevance the UK is on the world stage in a political sense?

No really

dannyh

Is it starting to dawn on people yet what an irrelevance the UK is on the world stage in a political sense?

Regrettably yes.

Even worse is we will be increasingly irrelevant economically.

That was going to happen anyway but Brexit will speed it up.

And we thought leavers lived in la, la land 😉

UK economic relevance?

Well by GDP as I recall similar to India, a bit ahead of Brazil, dwarfed by the US, EU or China.

Don’t know if that helps.

igm - Member
UK economic relevance?

Well by GDP as I recall similar to India, a bit ahead of Brazil, dwarfed by the US, EU or China.

Don’t know if that helps.

Sorry Igm, I have no idea if that comment was aimed at me and if so is supporting or denying what I mentioned? 🙂

Or are you simply saying that we are already an economic irrelevance?

Genuine questions above.

Let's face it, our overblown sense of self-importance got us in to this mess in the first place. A correction is long overdue.

Poops - not really aimed at anyone. I don’t think we’re irrelevant as such, but we aren’t one of the big three (or four if you think Japan makes the grade), and not being part of the EU I think we will lose influence in the world, not least because we will no longer have direct influence over the standards & policies of one of the big three.

Or are you simply saying that we are already an economic irrelevance?

irrelevance might be a bit strong, but basically is about right. remember the economic growth the brexiteers keep on about, and how that growth won't be in Europe...

Tallpaul - Member

Let's face it, our overblown sense of self-importance got us in to this mess in the first place. A correction is long overdue.

Posted 21 minutes ago #

This.

I deliberately said 'political' irrelevance above because we are totally irrelevant in that sphere. Trump slaps down May with impunity then Amber Rudd 😀 backtracks halfway in an obsequious attempt to get a bit back towards being chums with Donald. I'm not ashamed of being British, I find it shaming that we are forced to bow and scrape to the likes of Trump to keep up the pretence that we are relevant.

We are partly relevant in an economic sense - but that is largely preserved by being compliant and in thrall to multinationals who can and will walk away if we become in any way uncooperative - you know the type of thing - taxing them fairly, that sort of stuff.

IFS debunks the scare stories on hit to public finances noting that most of the bill was money the UK would be paying in if it had stayed in the EU

I thought the whole point of leaving was so we didn't have to pay the filthy Europeans any more of our beautiful pounds? Don't think the swivel eyed nut jobs will be happy that we're still giving money away?

igm - Member
Poops - not really aimed at anyone. I don’t think we’re irrelevant as such, but we aren’t one of the big three (or four if you think Japan makes the grade), and not being part of the EU I think we will lose influence in the world, not least because we will no longer have direct influence over the standards & policies of one of the big three.

Ah, thanks for explaining bud.

For what it's worth I totally agree.

teamhurtmore - Member
And we thought leavers lived in la, la land

Be gentle here as I only pop into this thread occasionally just to make sure I'm not the only one regarding Brexit and the whole process in astonishment. Lol

Are you for leaving the EU or remaining?

I'm not asking you to validate your opinion,I am honestly not sure as your comments are involved in numerous parallel topics within this thread.

I know you come in for some flak from a bit of shim reading yet I genuinely don't even know on which side of the debate you stand on?

No sarcasm intended at all in the above.

1. Remainer
2. Strongly pro 4 freedoms (and single market)
3. Strongly anti € for obvious reasons
4. Pro democracy (and respect for democratic process)
5. Believer in dealing with what is in front of you not what you wish was in front of you
6. Anti BS of both Brexshiteer and Remoaner kind
7 Mildly encouraged that progress is being made albeit at glacial pace

I’m with THM on the first four - and number 6 actually, though BS can be fun provided everyone knows it’s BS.

On 5, dealing with what’s in front of you includes changing it or holding your fire until it changes. And that doesn’t run counter to 4.

On 7, I think the progress is progress towards a bad deal, and a lack of progress leading to a deal so bad no one will countenance it might actually bring greater progress in the long term.
But then my risk aversion level is lower than many folk’s.

teamhurtmore - Member
1. Remainer
2. Strongly pro 4 freedoms (and single market)
3. Strongly anti € for obvious reasons
4. Pro democracy (and respect for democratic process)
5. Believer in dealing with what is in front of you not what you wish was in front of you
6. Anti BS of both Brexshiteer and Remoaner kind
7 Mildly encouragesd that progress is being made albeit at glacial pace

Cheers mate,

We agree on 3 out of the 7 then.

We could probably get married with that level of accord these days. 😉

Follows my a zwift divorce further down the line no doubt! Lol

IGM agree on the fun bit - we are missing the comedy turn at the moment!

Only 3?!?

What we need is a decent negotiator.

[img] [/img]

looks like the DUP wants more from the Magic money tree....

Amusing that they want to be part of the union when most? English haven't a clue about NI.

mrmo - Member
looks like the DUP wants more from the Magic money tree....

Amusing that they want to be part of the union when most? English haven't a clue about NI.

wheres that reported?

so Davis' compromise has upset them & only cold hard cash will make it better, who'd have thought that they were only in it for the money 😉

https://news.sky.com/story/dup-warns-government-brexit-border-issue-could-destablise-confidence-deal-11150379

I know it doesn't mention money, but i am sure a few billion could bring them in line.

The Tory DUP Alliance is an utter abomination.

Says more about the Tories than the DUP to me.

There is no such thing as a Brexit Bill

There are no additional amounts now due simply as a result of us leaving the EU

May offered to meet the spending framework commitment (commonly described as the EU Budget although it is not a budget as we would know it but a spending cap) until Dec 2020 on the basis the UK got two things

1) Full single market access until March 2021 (a bit cheeky as its 24 months access for 21 months money)
2) A guaranteed free trade agreement thereafter (challenging to see how this could be clearly defined)

From the EU’s perspective we are being asked to pay what we already owe as a result of our 40 year membership. The most obvious example is the EU pension fund which is currently underfunded by €60bn, a deficit shared by all EU member states

From UK’s perspective it’s No Deal, No Money

So if EU Parliament votes down any deal they get no money

As UK press have picked up the risk for May is that MPs who favour a WTO deal (which means no payments to the EU) are quite willing to vote down her deal if they think it’s not good enough

As I posted before personally i would vote against any deal requiring payments to EU (transition included) as that reverts to WTO deal option in April 2019 which is my preference

Trump will sign a trade deal with the the UK as that’s good business and a few Tweets aren’t going to change that. The EU needs to be very careful as Trump will use the US’s 30% stake in the IMF to screw them over on the next Greek “bailout”

I’ll post this again

May has offered “high” in return for 2 year transition period and a free trade deal from 2021.

No deal, no money

[img] [/img]

😆 😆

that is it really .

Trump will sign a trade deal with the the UK as that’s good business and a few Tweets aren’t going to change that

Hah!

Surely the business people want to stay I'm the single market.
Their wishes are bring ignored.
Why should that orange prick appease his business people when he has the chance to be a **** instead?

Trump will happily sign any deal that is one sided in his favour.
If he wants to deal we should run.

Full single market access until March 2021

jamba, does "access" mean we get to sell what goods and services we want, work where we want, transfer money how we want, but the rest of the EU can't reciprocate? Cos I thought we were taking back control to stop all these greasy foreigners coming in to the country as of March 2019. The single market is a market of goods, services, capital and labour isn't it? Thatcher's brainchild, you must be a fan.

[quote=igm ]Trump will happily sign any deal that is one sided in his favour.
If he wants to deal we should run.
this the idea that Trump, who i sbust ripping up deals across the world and saying everything must favour america will do a deal with us is as optimistic as its is repulsive

Trump will sign a trade deal with the the UK as that’s good business and a few Tweets aren’t going to change that

https://theferret.scot/doubts-raised-legatum-charity-work/

Around 90 per cent of Legatum’s funding comes from the Legatum Foundation, which is controlled by Christopher Chandler, a Dubai-based private hedge fund billionaire, originally from New Zealand who made much of his fortune in post-Communist Russia.

Now why might someone who made money from the collapse of the Soviet Union be interested in the UKs relationship to the EU. What might he stand to gain from a Hard Brexit???

Legatum stinks...big time

As I’ve said before I do wonder if I’m turning into a Brexit conspiracist theory loony.

But when you’ve got donations of £675k being given to 23 year olds and no ones going WTF you do start questioning that something’s very fkd about this and your not in on the joke.

(Sneaky edit with age lowering an donation highering)

Did the Brexshiteers promise to wipe out student loans in one go?

Could the thickos spell Legatum or even pronounce it?

THM - you ask the questions why?

To discover the answers to these intriguing questions

You may be more intrigued by them than I.

Sadly it looks like arm waving distraction with little point looking at it from here

PS - I assume you tried google first. 😉

Why would I google those questions?

To discover the answers to these intriguing questions

😀

Have you been on the sauce Thm?

The WTO fantasists like legatum & jambs, are influencing a small number of the more swivel eyed Tories but hopefully the more sensible heads are prevailing

They are... hence the progress that the bullies denied could happen

We shouldnt give the nutters the oxygen they crave

Did the Brexshiteers promise to wipe out student loans in one go?

Nothing so why did you feed him?

Loving watching the news with the old giffers who voted for Brexit moaning because their care costs are going up

But there’s been a reduction in the amount of immigration into the UK

Obviously these two things are entirely unconnected

Brexit is bloody brilliant isnt it?

But there’s been a reduction in the amount of immigration into the UK

Brexit is bloody brilliant isnt it?

yep!

They are... hence the progress that the bullies denied could happen

Some of us still got plenty of faith in the Tories ability to **** the whole thing up

Deviant likes the oldies having to fork out more cash.

Probably also likes the fact that due to Brexit his (I’m assuming male) taxes will go up with no corresponding rise in services - in fact services will probably get worse.

As deviant illustrates some turkeys just love voting for Xmas!

Well if you’re going to become a tax haven, the common peasantry are going to have to be grateful for multi billionaires wanting their super- yachts built in the UK

STFU and celebrate ‘taking back control’

'Deviant' has a long term plan to fleece the NHS for all I can get during my career, then leave with a golden handshake and lovely public sector pension....to somewhere like Australia where I already have friends and the county seems to have a better handle on immigration than us.
Lovely.

I'll leave you losers in awesome multicultural UK

Easy now deviant, someone might construe that as a) a little xenophobic and b) a bit anti-British.

You could easily upset both sides. (PS the EU might well love you for trying to mess up the UK though)

The EU are welcome to this dump, well everything sitting inside the m25 anyway.

It's a lost cause, anyone young enough save your money and leave....last time I was in Australia it was acceptable to have stickers in the back window of your car saying "f##k off, we're full"....that's my kind of country. In the UK the police would have you down for some kind of 'hate crime' or other made up nonsense.

They've got many many times our land mass but just a 25 million population...and they love it and want to keep it that way, I wonder what's it's like to still take pride in your country and enjoy free speech!?

ah this sort of ranting explains your "concerns" on the trump thread and freedom of speech is not the freedom to be a nazi.

As I said on there even racists realise they cannot say it openly so we get these sort of rants and attacks on islam instead

Poor wee little englanders 🙄

Dude, you do know that Australia has about 3x the number of immigrants than the UK, right?

Apart from the illegals most come through a tougher immigration system and are net contributors...plus the size of the country means I can buy my own space and not have to interact with them.

Much like I do on a smaller scale in Wales currently....when I have the funds I'll do like my old crew mate has done and buy 75 acres with a fishing lake and motocross track and drink beer in the sunshine laughing at what a dump the UK became.

deviant - Member
Apart from the illegals most come through a tougher immigration system and are net contributors...plus the size of the country means I can buy my own space and not have to interact with them.

But please carry on being afraid of nice normal people who are moving for good reasons. Written as an immigrant to another country where I was welcomed.

Good to see the OBR bringing some common sense perspective to the “bill debate” yesterday

deviant would you consider yourself a typical Brexy?

I can buy my own space and not have to interact with them.

they have more to fear from people like you than you do from people like them

Why do folk type things like that then get all upset when people suggest they are racists?

After the OBR now the boss of Unicredit arguing that London will remain the major hub for European finance

Bad days for gloom merchants

Again, you're being slightly free with your choice of words (no massive surprise), but lets see just for shits and giggles what he actually said.

[i]"will remain an important centre for expertise"[/i]

No quite a resoundingly upbeat soundbite.

Bad days for [s]gloom merchants[/s] for folk who can't quote properly...

But a great day for those who like to be be condescending.

Did he say how much it was going to fall by compared to if we dont leave when describing that only a few functiosn woud leave ?

TBH when you are going its not as negative as you said it would be, and celebrating that as a victory, you are getting desperate to be optimistic.

I suspect Mitty industry wont be binning the contingency plans[ its still sensible right?] based on this latest position piece will they?

Which is the same thing if you understand why London dominates EU wholesale financing

London has a unique set of expertise - the very word that is used in most analysis

Quote properly and understand - double whammy. Bad days for doomsday merchants still

“the major” versus “an important” - discuss.

Normally ”will remain an important” is what people say right after the say “well clearly it’s not going to be the preeminent place it was, but”.

And I’ve just remembered wat Deviant‘s demands for space to live reminded me of. Living space. Hmmm.

Which is the same thing, blah blah blah excuses excuses

then why go to all the trouble to misquote, if the meaning's the same..?

Bad days for [s]doomsday merchants still[/s] for people trying desperately to cover their arses, "oh teh ironing", as the kids are fond of saying, given what your talking about on the JC thread

Dont you be bringing the actual meaning of words into things now

Everyone knows Major[ pre eminent] and important [ one of many]are not the same
I imagine THM would hate for his role at work to be down graded from Major to just an important one.

Dude, you do know that Australia has about 3x the number of immigrants than the UK, right?

Australia has a population density of 3.1 people per sq km.

England has a population density of 395 people per sq km.

So yeah, if you're arguing for an immigration/emmigration policy that moves us closer to Oz's population density I'd be all in favour.

Much ado about nothing

😉

Moan, moan, moan

Moan, moan, moan

Moaning about immigrants (see oob & deviants posts)
Is what won brexies their vote, it's obviously a powerful tool !

England has a population density of 395 people per sq km

As for comparing our population density to a barren desert wasteland where most of it unsettalable can I advise you to **** off and pass the stringent tests you so support and go there .. You wont be missed

THM has just become a full on troll now shooting himself in the foot, offering no defence then hiding behind humour - he ha sgone the full edinburgh now. It pitiful to watch. I never agreed whit you but you used to actually have some credibility now you are just a tiresome troll we all keep feeding

The best you can be is inaccurate in your post and the worst is a liar. Its up to you how you deal with it but winks and smileys is unlikely to help your credibility or your honesty

Moan, moan, moan

I know right, truth and accuracy, who needs 'em... 😆

You don’t nick clearly

Kimbers - actually deviants stuff was worth moaning about or ignoring!! True

Richpenny: Dude, you do know that Australia has about 3x the number of immigrants than the UK, right?

comparing our population density to a barren desert wasteland where most of it unsettalable can I advise you to **** off