Forum menu
How can you claim multiple independent decisions were made by the electorate when there was only one binary choice on the ballot paper?
How can you put multiple options on a ballot paper when those are things that can only be negotiated at a later date?
Maybe you should consider a referendum to be a guide to what the public wants, and [i]then[/i] try and see if it's possible. Maybe you could call it an 'advisory' referendum.
And "possible" should include not risking throwing our closet neighbour, as well as part of the UK, out with the bath water.
They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.
They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.
Do we?
Since we got told lots of different things during the referendum. Exactly how do you know "we" (incidently who is "we") knew if would mean that and therefore voted accordingly.
They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.
It should have been a starting point for a long period of analysis and planning - and then another ref to make sure we're still on board.
[url= http://voxeu.org/article/300-million-week-output-cost-brexit-vote ]Nice analysis[/url] of the current cost of brexit by modelling UK economy and looking at difference post brexit vote.
What happened to the £350M/week? Oh we left off the minus sign... Well the bus was red,. and as all accountants know red means...
They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.
Do we? Does it rule out operating in either the SM, like Norway, or CU, like Turkey? Or is it the PM ruling both out?
How can you put multiple options on a ballot paper when those are things that can only be negotiated at a later date?
So they need negotiating… political decisions to be made on all sides… not determined by the advisory referendum.
Keeping options off the table, that could be useful on the island of Ireland, wasn't on any ballet paper.
Gibratar, So how are we going to fix that one then?
£60bn by the end of 2018 TiRed?
We need to make sure we bill the Brexies directly. Remain voters should have no part in paying this bill.
Priti Patel is telling it "like it is" in the papers about Brexit
How this individual is still an MP is staggering, covert non sanctioned negotiation with a foreign government?
Even Reese Mogg has thrown his Nanny out of the Pram over the "papers" not being released.
So treason, contempt are now acceptable?
They voted to end membership of EU and we know what that means.
I remember quite a bit about a Norway style exit.
Not much about North Korea type one.
We need to make sure we bill the Brexies directly. Remain voters should have no part in paying this bill.
Yep. A classic example of needing to be careful what you wish for.
I wonder what would happen if a significant number of remain voters (let's call them 'grown-ups' for simplicity) deducted amounts from their tax bill in lieu of this totally unnecessary and retrograde process.
Hmm, but to be fair we always have to pay taxes to fund things we don't agree with, don't we? Remainders would simply cite that. My tax pounds funded the Iraq war after all. Don't think you'd get far with that.
No but on the other hand taking a chunk off the state pension would seem fair enough.
Don't think you'd get far with that.
It'd be worth it to see the frothing from the likes of the Daily Heil.
Gibratar, So how are we going to fix that one then?
Sell it back to Spain for £40Bn?
[quote=oldnpastit ]Gibratar, So how are we going to fix that one then?
Sell it back to Spain for £40Bn?
More likely cede it to Spain in return for not vetoing any trade deal we can get with the rEU
Spain will be very happy to just shut the gate and walk away leaving the Rock to rot.
perditus - MemberTorygraph smoke screen/distraction .......
The responses there right now are amazing though
Politics are more important than economics though
"Whether an agreement has been reached or not, multiple Brussels sources told The Independent that the financial settlement had been eclipsed by the Irish border issue and citizens’ rights in recent days – a sign it is no longer the main sticking point in discussions."
The responses there right now are amazing though
Old Bob sounds a real joy. Fought in the troubles, if it weren't for men like him we'd all be speaking Irish 8O.
We get that there are countries that are not members of the EU, but operate in the SM and/or CU, and so do you. The referendum result was not "the people" asking to be outside either the SM or CU, that is a decision being made by politicans
You keep getting lost in the incorrect frames of reference
It’s not in/out or outside. I posted the relevant links before. We gave up, or are giving up, our MEMBERSHIP of the EU/SM/CU and we are now negotiating, or at least should be but can’t for obvious reasons, the terms under which we continue to have ACCESS to the single market in future.
Membership of v Access to. Repeat 100x
Pretending that people don’t get that/didn’t get that is disingenuous, unless of course that is what non-democrats dont get - or pretend they don’t get. You choose
perditus - Member
Torygraph smoke screen/distraction .......https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/935563788107042817
/p>The responses there right now are amazing though
Your not wrong !!!!
Can you actually impeach a PM ?
The comments are so batshit bonkers you can’t be sure they’re serious or taking the p.
Pretending that people don’t get that/didn’t get that is disingenuous, unless of course that is what non-democrats dont get - or pretend they don’t get. You choose
I think you are being slightly disingenuous in ascribing the referendum as a proper exercise in democracy. It wasn't for any number of reasons as is becoming apparent - some sort of soft right wing putsch possibly to set an agenda that could not possibly be achieved at a general election.
Those Torygraph comments have just confirmed my belief that their readership consists mainly of retired major generals who, prior to discovering Twitter, would write rambling angry letters to local papers in green ink
“The traitor Theresa May must be removed from power immediately! By military means if necessary!”
Absolutely hatstand! 😆
BOB FOR KING!!!
[img] 
[/img]
And also looks like the grown ups have been having their meetings after all and that a sensible compromise has been reached - phased payments and rebates to bring the actual number back to an acceptable level for all.
As you were....
Terribly undemocratic perditus to let the great unwashed have a say. Too thick to vote 😯 perhaps they read the Indy and the Guradian (or Torygraph) uncritically, poor things.
As you were....
You wish.
DD possibly in contempt of parliament?
The final bill unlikely to be disclosed?
The grown-ups, as you call them, haven't a fing clue.
Stop being so bloody condescending.
was the irony intended there?
Irony?
Oh my sides.
Do share your wit..
Edit: or rather should I say....what goes, comes around. Enjoy.
Guardian reporting a figure of 57 billion. So much for them whistling for it eh?
Can you hear that?
That’s the sound of brexiteers heads exploding in incandescent rage!
Tomorrow’s tabloid headlines should be fun.
teamhurtmore - Member
And also looks like the grown ups have been having their meetings after all and that a sensible compromise has been reached - phased payments and rebates to bring the actual number back to an acceptable
The grown ups - as mentioned earlier "Brussels sources told The Independent that the financial settlement had been eclipsed by the Irish border issue and citizens’ rights in recent days – a sign it is no longer the main sticking point in discussions."
so these people who you and others claim (extraordinarily condescendingly) have no 'kin clue etc are delivering a compromise deal which each side can claim is progress
Must be tough to realise that they are a lot smarter than you claim. At least if the FT coverage is correct.
57 Billion?
That's never true is it?
I wonder if that'll be enough to get talks going. Domestic difficulties appear to have been solved in Ireland, and thm said that that Varadkar et al's hard line statements on Brexit/NI Border were only noise to distract from the problems with the Tánaiste, so looks like it's Unicorns-a-go-go now that she's resigned. 😆
Kilo - watch this space. December 6th roll on...
Business may be able to start getting back to work - no wonder the £ rallied !
Terribly undemocratic perditus to let the great unwashed have a say. Too thick to vote perhaps they read the Indy and the Guradian (or Torygraph) uncritically, poor things.
Depends upon what information and facts were put to the electorate prior to them having their say. If that was lies then that was not an informed decision was it but no doubt that suits your leave agenda. Even those charged with murder are allowed to plead diminished responsibility etc.
so these people who you and others claim (extraordinarily condescendingly) have no 'kin clue etc are delivering a compromise deal which each side can claim is progress
Id wait until May's bosses have e their say, some will find that unacceptable given the earlier statements that we owed practicality nothing.
Anyway nice use of the word condescending...
well those "grown ups " on the UK side did not do a very good job , did they ???
FT reporting 100 billions reducing to 45 , 55 .
is that really a good deal for the UK ? 😆
If the 'grown ups' have been talking, what exactly is the f'in point of David Davis? Still, at least we have a proposal both sides can work on now. So to the really meaty issue of the Irish border........ is Dave turning his mind to that now?
Every.one can claim a victory - so yes a "good" deal if reports are correct
Unless you are a remoaner of course, in which case it flies in the face of the narrative that they have been pursuing since we lost the vote.
57 billion quid - would go a long way in the NHS.
this lunacy is beyond belief.
So to the really meaty issue of the Irish border........ is Dave turning his mind to that now?
[img]h 
[/img]
Nope it's exactly what most have been predicting, the UK would be forced to accept a leave bill much greater than anybody on the leave side or government was willing to admit to, that several ministers said they would tell them to whistle for and the pm had to face her euro skeptic rebels to agree this internally.
It's a climbdown by the UK and is setting the tone for the next lot of negotiations, Ireland is far from sorted.
It's almost as if you ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative thm are you the brexit bulldog?
The jury is out.
This Gov have delivered nothing but p1ss & wind since the vote.
Ireland is still an issue.
DD in likely contempt of parliament.
Brexit papers so severely redacted that even Reese-Mogg is complaining
The final bill likely to be anywhere between £57b & £89b - according to the Graun.
How long has it taken to get to here & how little time is left?
A catastro**** & no mistake..
from zero to 57 billions and it is a good deal ? have another 😆
Nice try Mike, but wrong.
The bill is pretty much smack in the middle of expectations with a fudge/compromise that allows each side to claim some victory. That is unless remoaners are unhappy for us to honour our obligations?!?
Thank goodness we are making "some" progress, business can get back to what it does best
Long commerce/ short Costa and Starbucks froth makers 😉
That is indeed excellent news for Mitty Industries and their legion of imported workers
So.. do you think most people would accept this leaving bill? Should we have a referendum on it? Cos you know, democracy is important isn't it?
The bill is pretty much smack in the middle of expectations with a fudge/compromise that allows each side to claim some victory
I think you've badly misread the mood of brexies and what the Brexiters have been promising them, sod off, go whistle etc etc
[img] 
[/img]
David Davis has sought to calm Tory anger over Theresa May’s Brexit speech by saying the UK will not face a £40bn divorce bill as a result of leaving the EU.Ahead on the next round of crunch talks with Brussels, the Brexit Secretary said reports around the final financial settlement were “made up” and claimed the power of the European Court of Justice (ECJ) would end in 2019 when Britain formally leaves the bloc.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-brexit-bill-eu-conservative-party-tory-cabinet-civil-war-theresa-may-boris-johnson-a7963936.html
The bill is pretty much smack in the middle of expectations with a fudge/compromise that allows each side to claim some victory. That is unless remoaners are unhappy for us to honour our obligations?!?
Seriously get a grip and put the partisan crap away for a bit. It's way higher than anything from leave during the vote, it's way higher than senior ministers were willing to even look at, it's higher than the restless back bench will accept and starts to paint a serious picture of the true cost of Brexit which will end up being greater prolonged membership.
dont be bring facts into his trolling mike ...beginners mistake
remoaners won't accept any progress - the ultimate goal is to frustrate the democratic outcome by whatever means are necessary. Bit of a set back today though....
Good for the rest of us ( caveat, only reading articles from papers while in a rainy Madrid where there is a bloody taxi strike tomorrow 😯 you have to love Europe 😉 )
Can't believe you guys keep feed the troll. Classic THM today, he really knows how to push your buttons...
So, any guesses as to who the Russian bots on here are?
Remainers are just laughing tonight , nothing else .
Aye brexiters capitulating is indeed a setback for remainers
There is spin then there is BS and beyond that your posts
😆
Blimey Mike do you take Bojo's BS as gospel? Big mistake, big mistake
If we get away with 40-50bn that's smack in the middle of what rational people were saying
100 alone would be a loss for sure
Sorry that the milk must taste so sour tonight but allow us business folk our moment of relief!!
Well, he just makes himself look more of an idiot in the end, first steps in the democratic destruction of the tory party today, they will be exploding, the mail won't know who are the bigger enemy of the people by the morning.
Looks like funding might take a couple more down there too.
That's some expensive whistling going on there.
so metal heart good to know that the thickos speak Russian 😉
Mike if progress takes down any of the rabid Brexshiteers, then I count that as even more progress!
Given you swallow Bojos stuff you must be more of a Tory than me !!! 😉
Remainers are just laughing tonight , nothing else .
The thing is I'm not. As a UK tax payer I'll be one of the ones stumping up that cash and worst still for something I think is totally moronic.
Given that 40% of UKIP pay no tax spare a thought for all the rich folk who will have to pay for this on everyone else's behalf
remoaners won't accept any progress - the ultimate goal is to frustrate the democratic outcome by whatever means are necessary. Bit of a set back today though....
I'd very much like to see Brexit work - but unfortunately nothing I've seen convinces me it could. Too much to lose & not enough gain - particularly with the Tories in charge & their odious agenda!
That's not wishful thinking - it's just being pragmatic.
One hopes common sense will prevail but sadly there are "grown-ups" in charge so it's looking highly unlikely.
As being for undemocratic? Yawnnnnnnnnn.......pull the other one, I think it's got strings on..
Ding a ling
So are you more or less optimistic tonight ?
Nothing has changed for me.
I still think it's best off being an intellectual exercise & nothing more.
Cake & eat it?
Not possible. It is basically unworkable.
The sooner that's realisedthe better.
8.5bn a year = total and utter disgrace and a total waste of money
50bn yeah OK then
Let's take 350m a week from the nhs and spend other on brexit
Blimey you did believe Bojo!! 😉
Not in uk tonight so missed news. How frothy was Laura K ?
Ooops too many cervezas, it's not 10:00 uk time yet - 😳
has the daily mail web site exploded yet ?
EDIT
Metro saying 50bn + 40bn commitments
Gonna be some wailing in Daily Mail land...
[img] 
[/img]
A set back to a sensible solution tonight THM for sure.
But then the only sensible solution is no Brexit.
So that’s another £40-50bn to add to the £60bn Brexit is already costing us, plus “commitments” of £40bn (less convinced by that last one).
And it saves us £8bn a year.
Any of you financial whiz kids got a DCF handy?
Why is it that for some it’s only money and economics that matter? 😉
Don’t forget thickos don’t do “sensible”.
On the bright side st least Diane Abbot (remember her) is breaking ranks with Labour Brexshit politicians policy and going for a second referendum #doordi
I don't think anyone is arguing it's only money. Some are arguing that incurring huge financial costs in order to damage ourselves in a multitude of other ways is pretty stupid
Not just money, we also loose respect, allies and get to embrace Trump
As someone who only pops into this thread occasionally to have a moan about the lunacy of Brexit....
Is it fair to say that after all this rubbish about the EU needing us more than we need them... we have wasted months blaming everyone but ourselves to, in the end, just cave in to the obvious and give the EU what they always knew we would have to give them? Financially and otherwise.
Oh, apart from when having a vague idea how to have a borderless border with Ireland.... Basically because it's utterly ridiculous in the first place. Even with fairy dust and magic.
Fairish assessment?
Not just money...
You may loose habitat, species, water quality, air quality, progress on carbon reduction, freedom, partnerships, respect, social justice, freedom, etc.
Yes Brexit [i]could[/i] bring all of the above in spades if we had a progressive administration and media but we don't so it won't.
I am loving it....57 billion quid and we get to keep the Brexiteers
This has to be the worst business deal struck in the history of human commerce.