[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

IGM - been dipping in between meetings but need to focus now as back at HQ 😉

Will respond on train later

Anyone listen to Kate Hoey (Labour Brexiteer) on the Today programme this morning?

Yeah, saw that reported earlier. Nice.

Though still waiting to hear about how Irish domestic difficulties are affecting Brexit headlines.

I fear that like any difficult question for Brexiteers and Quitlings alike, it just gets ignored until the debate has moved on.

I seem to remember a similar approach to a sticky question from zokes about visas.

So you don't agree with her assessment that a border is a bit pointless because in a couple of years, once the Irish see what a fantastic job we've made of Brexit, they'll be ready to leave too?

@Gee, dunno - last polls showed 80+% supported remaining in the EU but fears of a hard border are high too.

Maybe the RoI will see sense and join a single market with the UK rather than the rest of the EU, given the strength of their trade with us. France might follow suit (wine!), then Germany (cars!), and perhaps in time another 25 countries might see the advantages. We could call it the Union of Europe.

Kate Hoey, much like most people pushing for full fat Brexit, or whatever you want to label it, needs to educate herself about how WTO operates. I can't be arsed to write about this again… so here is a new link where someone else, probably with a sigh expelled for every sentence written, has gone through some of the points yet again…

https://amp.ft.com/content/1ce27838-d370-11e7-8c9a-d9c0a5c8d5c9

Edukator - Reformed Troll
A new level of stupidity from you, THM. Anyone on this forum can Google that an see that "nope" is false as in incorrect as a provocative ignoring of the facts.

Freddy and Fannie were exclusively financed by the Fed. The BOE is a major lender to British banks:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/markets/Pages/FLS/default.aspx

POSTED 8 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

Edukator, I hope you had a nice swim. You very kindly posted this link to correct my stupidity. That was very kind. Unfortunately, the link does not work on my iPad. But I am still interested to understand the BOEs role as a major lender to British banks especially through the scheme you highlighted.

Could you do me a favour? Any chance you could tell me how much the BOE lends to HSBC, Barclays, RBS and Lloyds under this scheme. IIRC Lloyds has been the most active user of the scheme in the past. Then I would be able to understand better. Thanks for your help in advance. Looking forward to another learning day.

Take a trip back to the 30s, the New Deal and the founding of Fannie. That was the point at which it was apparent that the only way to get the building industry back on its feet was a government organisation to provide finance to mortgage lenders. Since then governments(through central banks) have regulary made funds available to banks and mortgage lenders when the inability to secure finance has been an excessive drag on the economy. Recently the BOE.

Read my link when you have a device that will access it. It's straight from the horse's mouth.

I've no idea how much each idividual bank borrowed on the scheme, perhaps you have and can tell us.

The condescending nature of your post is clearly meant to offend.

I know how fannie and Freddie work and how they get their funding - it isn't how you say but no matter - but I am intrigued by the UK. I was never aware that the BOE was a major lender. Shame you can't access the link either. Hopefully it will work on my PC later. It will be very interesting to see.

Let's hope Windows is better than Apple.

No thoughts on the Term Funding Scheme yet THM? Seems the most recent example of BoE lending to banks, with obvious direct links to what this thread is probably supposed to be about.

Funding for Lending Scheme

The Bank and HM Treasury launched the Funding for Lending Scheme (FLS) on 13 July 2012. The FLS is designed to incentivise banks and building societies to boost their lending to the UK real economy. It does this by providing funding to banks and building societies for an extended period, with both the price and quantity of funding provided linked to their lending performance.

The FLS allows participants to borrow UK Treasury Bills in exchange for eligible collateral, which consists of all collateral eligible in the Bank’s Discount Window Facility.

The Bank and HM Treasury announced an extension to the FLS on 24 April 2013, which was amended on 28 November 2013, on 2 December 2014 and on 30 November 2015. This allows participants to borrow from the FLS until January 2018, with incentives to boost lending skewed towards small and medium sized enterprises (SMEs).

Yes I thought I understood it kelvin but apparently not. Perhaps you can help as the link doesn't seem to be working for Ed nor I. Can you advise in the extent of the major funding provided but the TLS please?

FWIW:

RBS has a deposit base of £360bn IIRC and Lloyds £414bn. It would be good to know how the BOE finding compares. Thanks in advance.

£100+ billion in a year… IIRC.

RBS has borrowed £100bn from the scheme? really?

No idea on the breakdown.

Oh well, given it's importance it will be worth waiting for. Let's hope Eds link works on a PC.

RBS 0, HSBC 0, Barclays 0, Lloyds 30 bn, Santander 3.1 bn, total usage £48 bn, other borrowers dominated by Building Socs.

Looks like 'Thick as Mince' has been lying about having done his homework.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/27/mps-attack-david-davis-for-handing-over-redacted-brexit-reports

The Brexit secretary has previously told a select committee that his government was “in the midst of carrying out about 57 sets of analyses, each of which has implications for individual parts of 85% of the economy. Some of those are still to be concluded.”

However, those inside the Department for Exiting the EU have insisted separate reports for each sector never existed. The suggestion is that civil servants have been working continuously on assessing the impact of Brexit on each of those areas, and have now pulled together information thought to meet the parliamentary demand.

The information handed to the committee has come in the form of 39 reports, it emerged on Monday night.

Cmon mefty, be serious. That low? Can't be...

lloyds has a balance sheet of £811bn - it must be much, much higher, surely?

The text from my link is up there ^^ . As for the relationship between the Fed and US banks since the financial crisis, it's outlined here:

https://www.clevelandfed.org/newsroom-and-events/publications/economic-commentary/2017-economic-commentaries/ec-201707-the-federal-funds-market-since-the-financial-crisis.aspx

Further to Leku’s link, we can talk about Brexit while the, erm, [i]bankers[/i] blow smoke up one another’s arses.

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The starting limit was 5% of qualifying assets so never going to be significant in context of whole bank.

I saw you link thanks. But if Mefty is correct - I think he must have the access we don't- then it looks like the scheme is rather small and not really used by the big banks at all. Do you think this is correct or does Mefty have it wrong too? Seems to suggest that banks must have much bigger alternative sources of funding.

Had a quick skim of the Cleveland report, Sorry what is that meant to tell me. I know that banks have large reserves following QE but they are not allowed to lend those out, what is the message?

Thanks mefty, So after all that the BOE isn't a major lender after all. Is that the lesson for today?

Sadly kelvin, looks like a false alarm/ red herring after all. Thanks for the help.

Oh, thm, I reliase we've moved on a page, and you still haven't answered that pretty simple question I asked.

Here's what you said:

Of course the Irish headlines have no link to domestic difficulties at the moment....,

To which I asked you to clarify what you meant by it. Thought maybe you'd forgotten with all the technical discussion about banking. Anything to add?

That on each point you've called me a liar you were wrong, THM, Simple as that.

In this environment, the institutions willing to lend in the federal funds market are institutions whose reserve accounts at the Fed are not interest-bearing. These include government-sponsored entities (GSEs) such as the Federal Home Loan Banks (FHLBs). The institutions willing to borrow are institutions that do not face the FDIC’s new capital requirements and do have interest-bearing accounts with the Fed. These include many foreign banks. As such, the federal funds market has evolved into a market in which the FHLBs lend to foreign banks, which then arbitrage the difference between the federal funds rate and the rate on IOER.

Central banks wouldn't be doing their job if didn't provide liquidity to banks as and when economic conditions made it judicious.

I thought central banks didn't lend to banks? Is this now about why RBS is different to the other banks? Scheme no doubt aimed at banks other than RBS, considering all the other channels money moved between BofE and RBS in the past decade.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/6646923/Bank-of-England-tells-of-secret-62bn-loan-to-save-RBS-and-HBOS.html ]BoE doesn't lend to RBS[/url] [ sarcasm ]

Further to Leku’s link, we can talk about Brexit while the, erm, bankers blow smoke up one another’s arses.

That tweet misses out that it's not just commercially sensitive data that won't be in the redacted (or hastily assembled) reports, but anything that might be relevant to the exit and trade deals ahead… g e n i u s !

It's almost as if these reports hadn't actually existed and they've had to bodge them together at the last minute.

Thanks Ed but not sure what an obscure reference to how the fed funds market works is helping.

But to stick to the Uk, we have stabilised that Central Banks provide a lender of last resort service - not needed in an iS apparently but that’s by the by - but we have yet to establish any idea that they are major lenders to banks. If mefty is correct the link provided suggests that not only have they lent nothing to three of the big UK banks but that this is a very limited and specific policy that doesn’t support your argument

So it would be great to see any evidence that central bankers are major lenders to banks. At the moment looks like you might have been mistake despite the strength of view you expressed.

You've got to admire the timing though - you would think that the non-disclosure/existence of reports detailing the effects of Brexit would be front page news.

Just as well we have something important like a Royal wedding to discuss.

So it would be great to see any evidence that central bankers are major lenders to banks.

[url= http://www.google.com ]Find things here![/url]

Tried that sr - blank

You need to type your query in the box and click search.

I'd of thought you'd of known this after 250 pages of not backing up your statements by telling people they can find the information themselves online.

So it would be great to see any evidence that central bankers are major lenders to banks. At the moment looks like you might have been mistake despite the strength of view you expressed.

You're distorting what I said again, THM, and putting words in my mouth. Go back to page 1077 for what I actually said in context.

It's just plain nasty the way you try to distort everything I post.

Also a small pedantic point is that FLS is not a loanm it is the lending of Treasury Bills against collateral and is off balance sheet for BofE accounting purposes - it is not a liquidity device but a pricing device.

this is a very limited and specific policy

It's an example that I brought up, as it is specifically about how the BofE has used extra, strings attached, lending to banks to help ease (I'd still say delay) the effects of the Referendum result.

If you want something more general, or more examples of, how central bankers supply loans to banks, there's a whole internet out there… knock yourself out. I suspect you know full well that this is one of the tools central banks use, and are just trolling… which would be fine, if you weren't be such an arse towards Edukator for his comments about central banks lending to banks… they do… both to save banks and influence lending to companies to attempt to influence the real economy.

Any chance of steering this thread back on to Brexit?

Yes, Mefty, pedantic, if you lend something it's a loan.

They are not lending money, they are effectively exchanging types of collateral.

What's that damp smell in here?

Have those stroppy buggers in Dublin not agreed to David Davis’ magic fairies border solution yet?

It's almost as if these reports hadn't actually existed and they've had to bodge them together at the last minute.

No, that can't be right.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-davis-theresa-may-brexit-reports-not-read-secret-detail-uk-economy-impact-leave-eu-a8022946.html ]At the end of October that nice Mr David Davis told the select committee[/url] that Mrs May and the rest of the cabinet couldn't possibly have time to read all the reports because [i]"they are in excruciating detail"[/i]

By any reasonable measure they are "lending". Dressing up things as what they aren't is a bankers speciality which was at the heart of the sub-prime crisis. Check out what fannie Mae was doing with its balance sheets in 04 and the run up to the sub prime crisis. Paying particular attention to the role of and actions of the Fed. Mark Haines did some excellent reporting on CNBC - the only RIP thread I've ever started if you check my forum history.

It's just plain nasty the way you try to distort everything I post.

Take it as a compliment - its most likely because he knows you're right but darent admit it..

Have those stroppy buggers in Dublin not agreed to David Davis’ magic fairies border solution yet?

thm is your man to answer that - he said there were domestic difficulties interfering with their policy on Brexit, NI Border, etc. etc. But he just won't answer what it is he thinks they are and how they're affecting policy.

So after all this...

A new level of stupidity from you, THM. Anyone on this forum can Google that an see that "nope" is false as in incorrect as a provocative ignoring of the facts.

We have used both Google and the Bank of England website to conclude that not only was your first observation was wrong but also:

Freddy and Fannie were exclusively financed by the Fed. The BOE is a major lender to British

Nope ^2

So that was a lot of emotion and abuse to establish that you were merely posting incorrect things again. No apology necessary.

Domestic issues in Ireland effecting their policy on Brexit and influencing the headlines, you were merely posting incorrect things again. No apology necessary.

Domestic issues in Ireland effecting their policy on Brexit

Good job no one said that isn't it

Hmm… just when I was wondering if THM had anything other than trolling in mind in this thread. No more feeding.

Just interested in factual debate on Eu referendum, kelvin.

Not my fault if people post rubbish and then get abusive about it. You will note the lack of #xyzbollocks unlike before. Despite even greater levels of bollocks being posted and by the posse members

Good job no one said that isn't it

You said:

Of course the Irish headlines have no link to domestic difficulties at the moment....,

And you've steadfastly refused to clarify what you meant. The "Irish headlines" you talked about - because we know you like to dismiss anything inconvenient as "noise" - are not just "headlines". They are the Taoiseach and Foreign Minister's statements on Ireland's approach to upcoming talks on whether talks on trade can proceed.

But, forget all that...because you'll swerve it instead of agreeing.

Just say what you meant by:

Of course the Irish headlines have no link to domestic difficulties at the moment....,

Is there any reason you really don't want to answer this question or further clarify it? C'mon, I'm bored of reading about banks etc. This stuff actually matters a lot to the upcoming talks.

We have three bankers on this thread, all posting grossly misleading stuff on both Brexit and the banking system. When non-bankers link plain English quotes from sources as reliable as the Bank of England they still rubbish it with statements as obtuse as Mefty's:

They are not lending money, they are effectively exchanging types of collateral.

The BOE states simply that it's lending money to banks and explains how.

I'm not sure why I've bothered to post links to show Jamba was distorting the truth; how THM is accusing me of lying when I'm right according to higher authorities than his bank; how Mefty tries to dress stuff up in fancy language but is still plain wrong. They never allow facts to change their minds, all that matters to them is making money.

They're bringing their industry into disrepute, making me think my money might be better invested in an empty field and doing the STW forum a power of no good in the same way as a guy posting "puff" to every newbie on BM. THM complains about bullying and does everything he can to belittle and bully adversaries.

The thread is a mess and it's contaminating the rest of the forum. I think I'm up to five post reports today. I was trying to get a moderator onto the thread to discuss what what's happening in here. Nothing so far. If I'm one of the people considered guilty of negative use of the forum I'm happy to be kicked off along with any others.

Perhaps this thread is a reflection of the way people now behave with each other in the UK. It's now my only contact with the UK as my last remaining real life friends within the UK ground to a halt as the people were overtly anti-EU. Family on Madame's side (remainers) report bust ups with life-long friends and having to have two groups of aquaintances that they never bring together - Brexiters and Remainers.

On el Camino we discussed Trump with Americans, separatism with Catalans and people from Madrid, the Troubles with a Irish guy, religion, politics... and just one person went off in a huff and refused to speak - a Brit with with extraordinary views on Corbyn and Brexit. Everyone else was capable of discussion and dialogue without spouting extreme views and then going off on one.

Britain needs to sign up for the Bac philosophy course and have a good hard look in the mirror because what 27 countries are looking at is ugly. Europeans aren't stupid, they see they UK headlines and feel threatened - British politicians are making it so clear what their vision is that Europeans can see the potential harm to continental Europe. Britain is changing from an ally to an economic enemy - it's all there in the British press and the statements by Brexit politicians.

I was really saddened by the Brexit vote, a year and a half on I think the hardest possible Brexit is the best for me and my family. I can no longer play with my double nationality, Brexit has forced me to make a choice. I'm European and Britain is just a dirty dealing rival state that threatens the quality of life in France and other countries that must refuse a race to the bottom.

Take care.

You are simply missing one point. You keep posting stuff that is untrue and it is you that then becomes abusive when this is pointed out

You should also be careful about claiming what people’s professions are as I know for certain that in one case you are incorrect again

If you are want to believe that insisting on facts is bringing an industry into disrepute then so be it. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion however misguided it may be. But don’t expect those who you regularly abuse to ignore it - it’s much better if people know the real truth

They're bringing their industry into disrepute

I agree on the pointlessness of this thread its largely seeing how much we can get away with insults without a ban

Occasionally folk try to drag the troll into a debate but he steadfastly refuses to give into the bullies.
PFTLT

@deadly @kelvin @edukator

Seriously, you expect answers? That's not his style, any direct question he just diverts off on to something else. It's the reason I gave up trying to engage with him months ago.

I'm just waiting for some more of his hilarious put downs, like nippy Nicky or gNats. Oh, my. Sides.

He who pays the piper (and all that). Hey, deadly & Edukator, if you two promise to jump to my defence I'll maybe gift you boys subs myself 😆

You keep posting stuff that is untrue and it is you that then becomes abusive when this is pointed out

[img] [/img]

PFTLT

Pregnant for the last time?
Pray for times like this?

Fits at yer sayin, eh?

+1 Edukator, +1.....

THM - my very tongue in cheek comment was really just to say that as far as I can see banks are market makers providing the elasticity (in the non-economics sense) that allows borrowers and lenders to trade.

Well yes and no and I will pardon the use of elasticity! 😉

They will take one trade (borrowing you say and I don’t know enough to argue) and then seek another trade or series of trades to back it off against.

I think you might mean lending rather than borrowing since its the banks client that is normally the borrower

Sometime they hold the position on their balance sheet, sometimes they sell it and sometimes they hedge it or leave it unhedged it depends on the bank and the loan in question

They are not an introductions agency for borrowers and lenders.
Am I in the ballpark?

Well they certainly intermediate between the two. The BoE piece that rone referred to explains that while this is true it’s not in the form that is commonly though. Banks do not take money in and then lend it out despite what textbooks tell you. They lend money and this then created a deposit. Having said that thtey have to keep deposits to fund their assets and they make money from the difference between what they pay in deposits and borrowings - their real funding - and the money they receive from the borrowers.

And don’t call me sane - if you’d met me you’d know...

I think it’s very clear that you are sane!

if you two promise to jump to my defence I'll maybe gift you boys subs myself

Fits at yer sayin, eh?

Damn my cryptic messages/Letters are still more comprehensible than his posts 😯

We have three bankers on this thread, all posting grossly misleading stuff on both Brexit and the banking system

Sigh.

I typed a longish explanation to you Edukator. If the three “bankers” here are saying one thing and you another re banking it’s quite likely you are the one posting “grossly misleading stuff” - no ? As I said to you I traded US Mortgage bonds (Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae included) for Goldman in NY for 3 years as well as working for 11 years at one of the worlds most diverse and international organisations (Stan Chart) with a specialty in global trade finance a sector I have particular investment expertise in. We all have our opinions, mine are based on 35 years of first hand experience in these sectors.

BTW Mefty’s list should have included Standard Chartered 0 too.

Well it's been easier to skip the large scale smoke screen of posts arguing technicalities while ignoring the questions about gross government incompetence and difficult questions about Ireland. When in doubt steer the conversation the other way. There are some very uncomfortable facts out there, the government is being caught in its lies and its ideas are being stripped of any credibility. If only we had known this before #ProjectFact

Seriously, you expect answers?

No. Of course I’d like to see one, but I know it’s not coming. But it’s a fun exercise in demonstrating thm’s approach when one of his “it’s all just noise” comments is questioned. I’ve been asking for 3 or 4 pages now (this does not require any great effort btw) and a simple clarification is unforthcoming. Quitlings don’t like being made to squirm - but it’s fun seeing them do so.

If the three “bankers” here are saying one thing and you another re banking it’s quite likely you are the one posting “grossly misleading stuff” - no ?

Demands for the truth coming from you??

Oh the irony.......

Have the heavily censored brexit impact studies been released yet?

I seem to remember they are due tomorrow..

It was an order of parliament, so the government could be held in contempt if they are not careful, sovereign Parliament and all that. Wasn't that the whole point of brexit in the first place?

[ welcome back to this thread Jamba… everyone else - let's keep this civil and polite at all times, please ]

Thanks @Kelvin sentiment appreciated. I think I initially said a 2month break although I think its been more like 3?

TBH I just read it to see if there is any abuse that needs reporting.

I said a while back (April?) that IMO nothing much would happen until after the French and German elections. What I didn’t expect was a “non-result” in Germany. IMO there will be no “sufficient progress” (a made up smoke and mirrors term which can mean just about anything and thus suits the EU perfectly) until Merkel forms a coalition or there is a decisive new election result and that could be a very long time indeed.

We have said quite clearly there will be no hard border in Ireland. The EU may well force one on the Irish side, that’s something we can do nothing about. The EU wants the UK’s hands tied on signing external free trade deals as every new deal means less export business for them as new counterparties inevitably take some of their “market share”. The best way to tie our hands is try and drag us into one of their “off the shelf” existing trade arrangements and they are shamelessly using the Irish border issue to try and restrict us.

This is quite long but IMO just about worth the read (in particular as it highlights one of my long standing concerns - that the EU would find a way to legally ensnare the UK in any future euro bailout no matter what various agreements said - was shared by Cameron)

https://www.politico.eu/article/ivan-rogers-david-cameron-speech-transcript-brexit-referendum/

redacted versions were sent today and "sensitive information"* withheld

* the secret bits that say it will be shit, no one really knows this yet, so dont tell the EU

let's keep this civil and polite at all times, please ]

It has not been anything like this for the last few hundred pages anyway

We have said quite clearly there will be no hard border in Ireland

Aaand yet we are leaving the customs union....

Jamba - good to see you back. I’ll pick a fight with you over something later I’m sure, but for now I absolutely genuinely mean it, welcome back, I enjoy arguing with you.

Anyway, back to the real business. Will DD (not you deadly) find himself in contempt of parliament (as opposed to just most remainers and about half the Brexies - though for different reasons)?

TBH I just read it to see if there is any abuse that needs reporting.

I thought you just paid thm to do all that for you.

😉
Etc.

Have the heavily censored brexit impact studies been released yet?

David Davis has been told he could be in contempt of parliament after his department heavily edited government analyses on the impact of Brexit on 58 industrial sectors before handing them to a select committee.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/27/mps-attack-david-davis-for-handing-over-redacted-brexit-reports <

i side with Jam on the abuse point. You might think he's wrong, but you can disagree politely but firmly. And the thread needs all points of view.

However I'd also like to see Jam acknowledge the questions he cannot answer and admitting it, rather than just going quiet. We are all floundering in the dark, reaching for things that will back up our emotive points of view, so let's be honest.

This would be a good thread if we could properly discuss how the government, the oppo and the EU are handling it, rather than shouting hyperbole.

We have said quite clearly there will be no hard border in Ireland.

Gwan, someone, explain to me exactly how we are to stop any old fuzzywuzzy or other who has wondered in to the shengan area from going to Ireland, crossing the 'border' and then heading off to good old Blighty for a jolly whenever they bally feel like it (with no hard border to stop them)?

Fairies with computers isn't it?

I think I initially said a 2month break although I think its been more like 3?

Good discipline. I promised myself I'd stay out of it 'till 2018! A personal failure. I was back after about 6 weeks.

The EU may well force one on the Irish side, that’s something we can do nothing about.

Did you read my FT link about how WTO rules mean that we have to sort our side of the customs border in the result of not having a trade deal with the EU?

jambalaya - Member
We have said quite clearly there will be no hard border in Ireland.

Well former disgraced etc Fox actually said "We don’t want there to be a hard border but the UK is going to be leaving the customs union and the single market." which isn't the same thing

Welcome back Jam, the thread was in need of some more comic relief.
Anything more than it's all the EU's fault for not agreeing with everything the UK wants yet?
Irish border is one of the hardest issues to solve, stating a position that is not compatible on many levels and ignoring it won't work.

This would be a good thread if we could properly discuss how the government, the oppo and the EU are handling it, rather than shouting hyperbole.

As for the opposition practically all they can do is propose amendments (I'm classing the more sane tories in that camp too) and try and get the numbers, each time May has to 3 line whip it more anger builds within her own party as she tries to please both sides. They should spend their time working on the best course of action going forward and putting personal belief to one side.

you can disagree politely but firmly

Imagine trump posted here - do you think he would get abuse and do you think he would deserve it over fake news etc?
I say yes to both - not that I am comparing jamby to trump [ JOKES GOES HERE] its just to illustrate a point

I am sure it will be politer if he has facts this time round or he accepts when his claim transpires to be demonstrably untrue. if not then some folk will react as they did last time
It did not take long to make it about him did it 😕