[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

So the conclusion to all this NI stuff is?
Fox an Davis don't communicate?
Fox doesn't understand that the UK agreed to sort out the NI border first?
Fox is trying to take the talks down?

Other thoughts welcome there but it's a bit late to start complaining about the rules of the game. If only everybody else realised how (self) important the UK is then maybe they would just role over and give us everything we want.

Fox is either
1) after WTO and wants any form of negotiation to stop hence his position
2) thick as two short planks and does not understand the process
3) Both 1 and 2

Don't forget Fox has previous on wanton to serve the UK on a platter to the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlantic_Bridge

reluctantlondoner - Member
Some magnificent whataboutery here https://eand.co/the-rise-and-fall-of-nations-6ff1d9a6b044 to combat THM's whataboutery yesterday with regards to Sweden's housing bubble.

It's a good piece from American economist Umair Haque - he's always worth reading.

That link is a short but a damned good read.

We are doing exactly as the guy says. Sacrificing the poor and the old to the out dated God of Austerity and what we think is good economics... All she while spiralling downward as a society.

Sorry, the link encompasses more than Brexit but it really chimed with me.

Thanks for posting it reluctantlondoner.

Back onto Brexit proper, from that Guardian article:

They (Brexiteers) have known since 29 April, when the European commission issued its negotiating guidelines, that credible proposals on the Irish border were a basic condition that had to be satisfied before trade talks could start. This could not have been more explicit.

Are our politicians really just that stupid??

They have know for for MONTHS that the border issue had to be sorted and now, when it isn't, it's Ireland's fault, or the EU's fault!

Brexit is a bad enough idea in itself without these morons trying to "negotiate" it.

Excerpt poops for the small detail on austerity that is at the core of the mistaken article.

The author - either deliberately or not - ignores the fact that fiscal policy in the EU has been more contractionary than in the UK and that this EU imposed genuine austerity - not our fake version - on countries in the middle of genuine recessions. The worst possible idea that condemned those countries to unnecessary social and economic hardship (sacrificing the old and the poor) in the name of The Project. That’s before we talk about the abuse of democracy

Are so called economists really that stupid (to publish such embarrassing clap trap)?

EU imposed genuine austerity -

In fact it was the banks that were at the start of the problem, including no doubt yours, THM. Those countires couldn't service their debt because [u]bank[/u] interst rates went sky high. The EU could have solved this with Eurobnds and central bank lending at very low rates before the situation got to where it did but didn't. The conditions that were applied ammounted to austerity which wasn't constructive but the origin of the problem was the banks due to the chaos caused by sub prime (a crisis entirely created by the bank) and good old profiterring with interest rates. The banks traded bonds in a race to see who could make the most money without being left with a worthless asset. Some were and then the EU stepped in to help th eidiots out by buying wothless debt of the stupid banks.

Your industry is collectively responsible for the crisis and austerity in many countries and you have the cheek to blame the EU.

As well as crying "austerity" you also criticise "monetary easing" which is the opposite. Hypocrisy.

not our fake version

Meanwhile in the real world....

this EU imposed genuine austerity - not our fake version - on countries in the middle of genuine recessions. The worst possible idea that condemned those countries to unnecessary social and economic hardship

And yet it is to that EU that we gave all the trump cards in our negotiation, on the basis that they will agree with us that "trade comes first" and come to the optimum compromise. On the contrary, in many places the EU considers that "politics comes first" - in the case of the NI border, at least, rightfully so - so our hopes are likely to be dashed.

Ed - you might want to understand why Eurobonds didn’t happen (and who blocked them) the difference between bank financing and bond financing and most importantly the difference between monetary and fiscal policy. Then your posts might start to make a bit more sense and you would understand how silly your “hypocrisy” accusation is. Not that I expect you to bother with either facts or accuracy mind. Amusing tirade nonetheless

Dr you are correct the EU places politics over economics which is why they fail to deliver. Economics always wins in the end. Just a matter of timing

Brexit is the ne plus ultra of putting politics before economics.

Vraiment

the difference between bank financing and bond financing

Often one and the same thing. Central banks issue bonds and the money raised is lent to banks.

Nope

A new level of stupidity from you, THM. Anyone on this forum can Google that an see that "nope" is false as in incorrect as a provocative ignoring of the facts.

Freddy and Fannie were exclusively financed by the Fed. The BOE is a major lender to British banks:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/markets/Pages/FLS/default.aspx

imposed genuine austerity - not our fake version - on countries in the middle of genuine recessions.

As each day passes you become more like jamby using arguments you dont actually agree with just to attack the EU 🙄 When have you ever argued for big govt, increased debt and Keynesian spending rather than balancing the books, reducing the deficit and smaller govt?

PS any date on when the EZ collapses or when you stop predicting it?

Of course the Irish headlines have no link to domestic difficulties at the moment....,

No chance, I suppose, that you'd clarify what you meant by this thm?

any date on when the EZ collapses

Already happened JY.

*taps nose*

teamhurtmore - Member
Dr you are correct the EU places politics over economics which is why they fail to deliver. Economics always wins in the end. Just a matter of timing

For sure, that's why the guns were (sort of ) put away in the north, lower interest rates and fluctuations in economic activity.

Free Trade brought peace to Northern Ireland.

Bespoke Access to the market south of the border will ensure peace continues. 🙂

kilo - Member
teamhurtmore - Member
Dr you are correct the EU places politics over economics which is why they fail to deliver. Economics always wins in the end. Just a matter of timing
For sure, that's why the guns were (sort of ) put away in the north, lower interest rates and fluctuations in economic activity.

😆

Edukator please stop. Based on what you are posting TMH has been very polite to you. You seem to know a little but you do not have even a layman’s understanding of the topic.

YGM

Cmon Jambas where would we be without Ed’s comedy. This thread verges on serious occasionally and that’s not always a good thing

A new level of stupidity from you, THM.

Why thank you. I try so hard to fit in. You do set the bar so low that it’s hard at times.

Anyone on this forum can Google that an see that "nope" is false as in incorrect as a provocative ignoring of the facts.

They can google and make their own minds up. You were wrong again but google will show that to all. But given your track record I doubt people would bother to check. That is a given.

Freddy and Fannie were exclusively financed by the Fed. The BOE is a major lender to British banks:

QED 😯

Can someone buy me a premier subscription for Christmas please?

Jamba's back! The two banking trolls posting things they know to be false to wind up the "laymen" they look down on except this laymay got excellent economics grades at university and ran a real business in the real world well enough to give up work at 42.

THM was extremely impolite rubbishing a factually correct statement with "nope". I consdidered milder responses but decided that I would be happy to defend my post at the top of this page if I recieved a message from the moderation team.

You misrepresented the truth through the first few hundred pages of theis thread Jamba, I linked repsectable articles to demonstrate what you wrote was misleading and a misrepresentation of the truth on many occasions. THM is now rubbishing my statements on how banks borrow from central banks. He is plain wrong and yet posts a provocative "nope". He is also winding up Darcy on the Irish issue, and the forum in general by sniping rather than contributing.

Read back through the last 20 pages and try to find an example of where THM has made positive use of the forum to contribute in apositive way to the debate bringing reliable information to the table.

Both yourself Jamba, and THM make negative use of this forum and dressing up your abuse with frilly Ps and Qs doesn't make it any less offensive.

*reports own post. Edit - I can't report my own post so I'll report THM's "nope".

Time to increase our understanding please you two (Jamaba&THM)… please describe how central banks work as regards lending money to banks… or explain how/why they do not, if that is the case (which it isn't, in my very limited layman's understanding).

[i][ welcome back to this thread Jamba… everyone else - let's keep this civil and polite at all times, please ][/i]

dressing up your abuse with frilly Ps

Although I suspect it does mean they're less likey to get banhammered, it's probably a price worth paying to their handlers 😉

THM and Jamba once again miss the point about what's going on. You guys can lecture all you want about bank financing, balancing the books, make believe austerity etc but people don't GAS. All they know - and they do know - is that they are getting poorer whilst a tiny minority at the top gets richer. The more you guys tell the proles what isn't possible, the more angry and more radical they become. What happens when the great unthinking public finally realises that brexit was a sham sold to them to distract from the real problem? Corbyn and McDonnell could be the least of your worries.

For sure, that's why the guns were (sort of ) put away in the north, lower interest rates and fluctuations in economic activity.

You missed the point - dead people don't matter where MONEY is concerned!

Bravissimo - I've got you a power kite and one of those ceramic poppies 😀

What happens when the great unthinking public finally realises that brexit was a sham sold to them to distract from the real problem?

At least that will be the end of the Tories.

How about a specific… how does the the[b] Term Funding Scheme[/b] work, and do we all except that it was a key intervention by the BoE to reduce (or I'd argue, as an opinion not fact, delay) the impact of the referendum result on both investment and growth in the UK? Is it an example of a central bank lending to banks? Is it a rare exception? As a layman, I don't know enough about these things.

As for Jamba and THM keeping it civil.

Sniping, taking the Micky, talking down to, sneering, sarcasm, rubbishing factually correct statements... . I've typed the others before so I'll leave it there is neither polite nor civil. In fact "Edulator please don't " is just another high handed Micky take from a serial Micky taker.

This thread is a mess, and it's a mess because a couple of bankers are colluding in winding up reasonable, talented and perceptive people. But these same perceptive people are aware of what's going on. And this percveptive person is weary of having debate stiffled by a couple of Micky taking bankers.

Ed, you even make stuff up about DD

Remember that unlike Jambas, I am a remainer (but not an undemocratic remoaner). If you want to pretend that claiming that we need to know th format of our future access to the single market before we can determine the nature of the NI border is winding up Darcy then so be it. Darcy seems a much bigger boy who is perfectly capable of looking after himself without you lying on his behalf. His sneering is also far more refined and entertaining than your outright abuse.

Please report my (factually correct) nope since there are no rules against correcting false statements in a brief manner. You continue to make false points - TBF they seem to be more due to not understanding than outright lies, but the effect is the same. You should use google more selectively as you are merely confusing yourself and potential and more worryingly confusing others (that could be intentional).

Kelvin - banks fund themselves via deposits and borrowings.They are not financed by governments. In the case of Freddie and Fannie they have lines of credit from governments but their main funding comes from securitising the mortgages. That's

anyway, more important things there is going to be a royal wedding, huzzar.

panem et circenses.

Remember that unlike Jambas, I am a remainer (but not an undemocratic remoaner).

I wasnt aware democracy meant one vote and thats it?
Outside of within certain extremist parties who do actively take the line of getting power and then ending democracy.
Why do people keep taking this blatantly anti democractic line and then insulting people who disagree (all the while whining about being insulted).

Wow - compliments even when I haven’t paid for a subscription. 😀

Anyway, any chance of an answer as to why Irish headlines would be hinting to domestic difficulties?

Remember that unlike Jambas, I am a remainer (but not an undemocratic remoaner).

Anyway back to the amazing demonstration of negotiating skills on display, either you all speak with one voice (or else undermine the process) or any side swipes from the likes of Liam the disgraced former many things Fox about not doing what you agreed to do at the start of the negotiations should be sanctioned from the top.

Anything else is evidence there is nobody actually running the show, I guess that is what is making these negotiation take so long that and all the reviews of the cake menu.

Ed we have had 000s of pages of debate. That you are struggling to fit in is perhaps due to your ability to post stuff that is incorrect on a continued basis. Today is just another example.
.

Sort that out and you will be fine.....but we will miss out on a smile which would be a shame.

You need to be carful who you are calling bankers too. Some people don't like that negative term. It's very emotive.

If all that you wrote in your PM is true, Jamba, why do you post such utter nonsense on this thread. Your PM is is fact based, your posting on this thread was extremist Brexiter tosh.

I'm sure you could both make a positive contribution but choose not to, prefering to wind up people you address as mountain biking ignoraomuses.

Anyway, any chance of an answer as to why Irish headlines would be hinting to domestic difficulties?

You see ED? Good old DD is concerned over my comments over whether there is any link between the timing of headlines re the border and domestic political issues. Totally different to what you suggest. As per...

Wow, you need to calm down. Your accusations are becoming more and more outlandish. Ten deep breathes.....

Kelvin - banks fund themselves via deposits and borrowings.They are not financed by governments.

Brilliant swerve. A reminder of your intellect.[b] Now, do central banks lend to banks?[/b]

You're talking in riddle again, THM. Who is "ED"? I haven't commented on the timing of Irish headlines.

Just winding someone up again I suppose but it shouldn't be me so who is "ED"?

Ten deep breathes.....

More Micky taking, THM. ****

😐

Would a change to the party of government in Ireland lead to a change in the government’s approach to Brexit and the NI Border? (The answer to this one is easy for you thm, even with your admitted scant knowledge of Irish domestic politics.)

Leading on to why you think there’s a connection between headlines and “domestic difficulties”. Go on, do tell.

At the margin and in exceptional circumstances.

In the main, banks funding comes predominantly from deposits and wholesale funding (borrowing) and the other side of their liabilities is equity. ed was simply confusing extraordinary policies with what happens generally. You decide if that was for effect or not.

Some guy who writes a lot of things on here that are incorrect. You see his posts a lot.

Anyway back to client meetings now to discuss Brexshit some more!!

How much is the TFS worth? £100billion? Glad it occurred, and it may well be on the margins, and the referendum result has put us into exception circumstances. More than a bit harsh to go at someone for pointing out that lending from central banks to banks occurs though, don't you think?

TMH has been very polite to you

Has he ****. He's continually tried to bait him into the thread like the pathetic little man he is to try and score points to boost his ego and 'win' the internet by being obtuse.

All the while hell refuse to engage with anything that doesnt fit his narrative. Much like you jamba.

There's an incredible irony in the fact that a minority UK government, mainly consisting of foaming-at-the-mouth, right-wing headbangers, and propped up by a bunch of even more right-wing, ultra-hardline, creationist nut-jobs are doing more to bring about a united Ireland than the IRA managed in a decades-long campaign of violence

Your twisting what I said, THM I'm not confused, I'mm fully aware of all the ways banks are funding. You denied with "nope" the eexistenceo fo one of them.

There's no point to this, THM, Tj got banned because of your wilful provocation. Your only reaqson to be here is to attack other posters.

Who is "ED"?

I think his deliberate changing of people's names is probably in some senior civil servant training manual about how to project authority by belittling people. It's pretty pathetic really, and a sure sign that his overt confidence is not quite underpinned by his soaring intellect.

That is unfair. Just using shorthand, no? Like others using "THM"?

I'm not bothered by the abreviation just that I've said nothing on that issue.

This place sucks some days, and that nuber of days is increasing. One apple to poison the barrel. Swimming time.

Maybe I'm being too harsh? He does have a habit of it though. Obviously with such towering intelligence attention to detail is something that suffers 🙂

There's an incredible irony in the fact that a minority UK government, mainly consisting of foaming-at-the-mouth, right-wing headbangers, and propped up by a bunch of even more right-wing, ultra-hardline, creationist nut-jobs are doing more to bring about a united Ireland than the IRA managed in a decades-long campaign of violence

You know, I never really thought it would actually happen - not a UI - that is inevitable at some stage - but I await the first Tory to hint that a UI might be the best solution to enable their plan. A party that has tried never to publicly allow Irish Nationalism an inch may soon have members that will support the idea. 😆

It's just another example of the way in which a totally toxic, evangelical (Faragist?) anti-Europeanism has now completely driven out everything else in the Tory party, not least any rationality or pragmatism. It now more resembles a religious cult, more than a political party

Look how the alleged Marxist Jeremy Corbyn gets a better reception at the CBI than a sitting Tory PM, as he's the least worst option. Weren't the Tories always 'The Party of Business'?

Not any more, they're not.

Even that must be sacrificed at the alter of Brexit

Remember, as regards the Irish border, some of the ultra Brexit players predict/want either Ireland to leave the EU as well, or for all the people in NI to give up on the idea of any joint/fluid national identity.

but not an undemocratic remoaner

Not this tired load of tosh again...

The more you bang on about "the will of the people" & "remoaner" the more panicky you sound....

It's getting tiring, but the end is in sight. The chronically bad budget & economic forecast is finally going to make it's mark. Sooner or later, folks are going to realise Brexit is a stitch up, a really fing bad idea & a re-count will be called for.

That's not undemocratic - it's just correcting a really fing bad idea.

The upside is it'll be the end of the Tories for at least a decade..

Thanks kelvin

Next thing we know folk will be posting #jambabollocks and things like that. Or maybe really rude and say TH 😉

#jambabollocks

Well, if he does post lies again - I think it'll be well deserved..

That silly cow should be gone never in my wildest imagination did I ever think the benefit price to the EUROPEAN Union would be hidden from the public surely public funds should be appropriated and accounted for this is bloody insane ...end rant but as said above once that gets made public it's over for the Tories and jezza will get the blame for the shithole after it's another Tory masterstroke

So what do we reckon is going to drop today given the ginger unimportant prince was allowed to announce his engagement today 😉

Still no idea why Liam Fox is going off script then?

Remember, as regards the Irish border, some of the ultra Brexit players predict/want either Ireland to leave the EU as well

To read some of their stuff on social media, some of them appear to think the British Isles is still all one country. 🙂

Ireland remaining is not hard boiled at all. There is a significant eurosceptic movement that holds fresh the memories of the troika around the time of the global crash.

I think the UK making such a bollix of it so far has slightly hardened the pro-EU side. As has the EU’s support for solutions before talks wrt the border.

I thought you had important meetings thm. Any chance of an answer to that question yet? It was a pretty easy one.

It is horrific to think that the final bill may well never be disclosed....

Why?

Why hide the numbers?

Come on THM et al - wriggle your way out of that!

What about the 58 studies on Brexit & it's impact that are being withheld?

If it's such a cooking idea......lets bloody have them!

Pah, load of tosh & the Brexiteers know it......

Still no idea why Liam Fox is going off script then?

There's a script? 😯

There's a script?

I believe it was 'Have cake and eat it'

Nice to see that it's all going spiffingly.

In the main, banks funding comes predominantly from deposits and wholesale funding (borrowing) and the other side of their liabilities is equity. ed was simply confusing extraordinary policies with what happens generally. You decide if that was for effect or not.

Even according to the BoE the bank's funding doesn't come from deposits.

"Rather than banks receiving deposits when households
save and then lending them out, bank lending creates
deposits."

Create a united Ireland but anyone in Ulster who wants a UK passport can have one.

Give the EU their divorce bill out of the foreign aid budget, lol....we'll see how badly they want it then.

This is easy.

deviant - Member
Create a united Ireland but anyone in Ulster who wants a UK passport can have one.

thats is not going to go down well with some (who happen to have TM by the balls)
[img] [/img]

Give the EU their divorce bill out of the foreign aid budget, lol....we'll see how badly they want it then.

This is easy.

Im sure its very easy in your head

Who cares what the orange brigade thinks. Just let the Irish sort it out amongst themselves, ie kill each other to death.

We can livestream it on tv and throw in a few airstrikes for added entertainment value.

PUBG - Eire and NI DLC?
😯

thats is not going to go down well with some

Rone. That is a very good post but technically slightly different. Your BoE reference was a belated recognition that banks do not merely intermediate between savers/depositors. For many decades and in most textbooks this was how banking was explained.

But as the BoE note, banks create the loan first and this then becomes a deposit. Most people and many bankers don’t understand this. They still think it’s the other way round.

But that does not mean your conclusion is correct. It isn’t. Deposits remain the main source of funding followed by wholesale funding (debt) despite what others would like you to misbelieve

Google any bank websites and look at their liabilities in the annual report. But go careful on Ed as the truth seems to upset him.

But as the BoE note, banks create the loan first and this then becomes a deposit. Most people and many bankers don’t understand this. They still think it’s the other way round.

Like bookies innit? 😉

Anyone listen to Kate Hoey (Labour Brexiteer) on the Today programme this morning?

She wants to build a big beautiful wall and make the [s]Mexicans[/s] [i]Irish[/i] pay for it:

[i]"We’re not the ones who will be putting up the physical border. If this ends up with a no-deal we won’t be putting up the border they’ll have to pay for it because it doesn’t need to happen."[/i]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/kate-hoey-radio-4-today-interview_uk_5a1bd32ce4b064948075558d

Not really 😉 but it is the complete opposite to how people think banks work which is one reason why the BoE wrote the piece that rone refers to.

I send it to loads of people!! It’s an excellent article.

How are you IGM? Nice to have some sanity restored after being told that two direct substitutes are the same thing !

Actually I think shes taking after the Mexicans....

THM - my very tongue in cheek comment was really just to say that as far as I can see banks are market makers providing the elasticity (in the non-economics sense) that allows borrowers and lenders to trade. They will take one trade (borrowing you say and I don’t know enough to argue) and then seek another trade or series of trades to back it off against.
They are not an introductions agency for borrowers and lenders.
Am I in the ballpark?

And don’t call me sane - if you’d met me you’d know...