[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

No its blindingly obvious folk care for a myriad of reasons not least because they have just stated them.

Perhaps if you'd paid attention at primary school you'd know that.
Take a long look at yourself...

is is not racist to discriminated against those from outside the EU?

I do like the I want to stop all immigrants coming here so I am fairer and less racist line of argument

Its a great insight into the average Brexiies voters critical faculties

Just look at the contents of TTIP for one thing - OK it isn't going to get through,

dont worry the tories will be signing us up to something similar once free of the 'shackles' of the EU

result!

dont worry the tories will be signing us up to something similar once free of the 'shackles' of the EU

result!

the thing is if the tories overstep the mark too much they will just get voted out, the EU is so entrenched that that would be virtually impossible.

I take it that's a joke ?

on us I suspect.

Troll of the day, well done.

-double post-

It's not over just yet
[url= https://www.crowdjustice.com/case/a50-chall-her-e50/?utm_reference=3c09b057d48d899e4ef1eaef0bb6f708&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_content=post_pledge_popup&utm_campaign=a50-chall-her-e50&utm_source=backer_social ]Article 50 Challenge[/url]

TurnerGuy - Member

And is is not racist to discriminated against those from outside the EU?

Correct.

it's a particularly pathetic argument this, one beloved of UKIP though and I can see why it gets traction. But it amounts to "some people get a better deal than others. We will ensure that everyone gets an equally bad deal". EU freedom of movement was not costing anyone from the ROW anything in terms of movement or opportunity. Taking it away will not improve it for anyone else.

it's a particularly pathetic argument this

in your opinion, I've seen people from outside the EU use it as well.

And?

It's not over just yet
Article 50 Challenge

Parliament voted for it.

from the link

Immediately after the Supreme Court ruled that no decision had been made – the government took the “decision” as read. Speaking about the rushed Brexit Bill, David Davis could not have been clearer that it was nothing to do with Leave or Remain. He said, that it was: "not a Bill about whether the UK should leave the European Union or, indeed, about how it should do so; it is simply about Parliament empowering the Government to implement a decision already made—a point of no return already passed.”

On this issue, Professor Grayling says: “We feel that the difference between the asking Parliament to make the actual decision and asking Parliament for permission to notify a decision already made is not technical, but fundamental”

The case is based on triggering A50 being "unconstitutional".

I would think, since Parliament voted for it, that's not going to fly. Seems a tree that will bear no fruit to me.

The referendum happened and Article 50 happened. I'd love it to be stopped, and I don't think that's impossible, but I can't see this being the way.

I'd be happy if you and they are right though.

TTIP is an excellent example of why having the UK within the EU is good for British citizens.
Westminster supported TTIP even after the EU sidelined it.

Happy trolling

In fact we were worse 10 years ago

So why have we improved relatively? Might it possibly because we are not so constrained in our economic policy?

would naturally look higher in Italy because a larger percentage of that group would naturally be in education.

I did a broadbrush analysis of the total of people in tertiary education over the population as a whole, we are at a similiar percentage to Germany and France (between 3.58% and 3.65%), Spain is a bit higher (4,23%) and Italy (3.01%) is an equivalent amount lower. Obviously you would need to look at demographics to get a more accurate picture.

So why have we improved relatively?

Just look at the contents of TTIP for one thing - OK it isn't going to get through, but the fact that they drafted it with that content

Not this again.

I can't understand why you would cite the content of TTIP, a deal that the UK gov was massively in favour of but the EU refused to sign, as an example of how terrible the EU is.

Because reason has left the building.

I can't understand why you would cite the content of TTIP, a deal that the UK gov was massively in favour of but the EU refused to sign, as an example of how terrible the EU is.

Some members of the EU refused, but it was the EU itself that came up with it:

Yet when I asked the trade commissioner how she could continue her persistent promotion of the deal in the face of such massive public opposition, her response came back icy cold: “I do not take my mandate from the European people.”

So who does Cecilia Malmström take her mandate from? Officially, EU commissioners are supposed to follow the elected governments of Europe. Yet the European Commission is carrying on the TTIP negotiations behind closed doors without the proper involvement European governments, let alone MPs or members of the public. British civil servants have admitted to us that they have been kept in the dark throughout the TTIP talks, and that this makes their job impossible.

In reality, as a new report from War on Want has just revealed, Malmström receives her orders directly from the corporate lobbyists that swarm around Brussels. The European Commission makes no secret of the fact that it takes its steer from industry lobbies such as BusinessEurope and the European Services Forum, much as a secretary takes down dictation. It's no wonder that the TTIP negotiations are set to serve corporate interests rather than public needs.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/i-didn-t-think-ttip-could-get-any-scarier-but-then-i-spoke-to-the-eu-official-in-charge-of-it-a6690591.html

Is it because of the Eu or do they just get the blame for bad things and we take the credit for good things?

As it is a comparison with other EU countries, it is probably smart to look for a differentiating factor rather than a common one.

it was the EU itself that came up with it

That's not the way negotiations work. The US made proposals and the EU offered counterproposals.

The most controversial stuff regarding ISDS, and changes to environmental, consumer protection and public health standards came from the US proposals and were [i]opposed[/i] by the EU.

If it was up to the UK alone we'd have signed it already.

If it was up to the UK alone we'd have signed it already.

This.

Its pretty dumb for somebody to be using this argument against the EU, when the UK wanted to sign up to it.

To quote Germany's Economy Minister, [url= https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-usa-ttip-germany/germanys-economy-minister-u-s-eu-free-trade-talks-have-failed-idUSKCN1130FB ]Sigmar Gabriel back in August 2016[/url]:

[i]"The negotiations with the USA have de facto failed because we Europeans did not want to subject ourselves to American demands,"[/i]

Its rather unedifying watching him try I feel embarrassed for him.

I've spent the week sampling our European Union via an Erasmus project.

Firstly it reminded me of what we stand to lose in terms of friendship, collaboration, learning, trade and opportunities. Massive. This project is worth £80k to my organisation, and we have another two just starting. The outcomes and knowledge we have shared this week will help my employer really take the lead nationally in a specific area, worth even more in trade for future years and benefit to young children across the UK - to the benefit of all UK society.

It also reminded me of the EU bureaucracy. Some of our partners had brought cash to pay for thier costs of the week long event, as they claim costs to EU individually rather than a block grant. That said, there's a really, really good reason why they ask have thier own travel and costs allowance to attend training - it's just odd knowing EU are happy for cash to be used for a total bill in the thousands.

Overall, this week has highlighted the benefit of the EU membership to me. Can we please change our mind?

Anyway, next meeting is Estonia and I'm looking forward to trying to hire a bike and head into the forest on the spare day I have over there...

As it is a comparison with other EU countries, it is probably smart to look for a differentiating factor rather than a common one.

Now you seem to be accepting its nothing to do with the EU but the fault of nation states - which was the point of my statement.

The referendum happened and Article 50 happened.

sshh, there are some sensitive folk around

Best not to mention the direct link between € and unemployment esp on a Friday evening

You were arguing it was the EUs fault re unemployment and not nation states and Kimbers and others challenged you on this
Now you seem to be accepting its nothing to do with the EU but the fault of nation states - which was the point of my statement.

Neither, actually, my argument is that it is down to the Euro, which doesn't apply to certain EU states and is therefore a differentiating factor.

Kimbers just went off on a sidetrack backed by misleading data - plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Oh eck * we are in trouble now

(Amusingly autocorrects to ECJ 😉 )

Oh eck * we are in trouble now

Not really I'm off to the pub in a minute.

Already there !!

my argument

Just as I leave, I should say it is hardly my argument, it is one widely made by far better educated people than me from all sides of the political spectrum and all sides of the Brexit debate.

Neither, actually, my argument is that it is down to the Euro, which doesn't apply to certain EU states and is therefore a differentiating factor.

Indeed - but someone on here was making out that the Euro was a reason we have to leave the EU!

Research paper by City University of London identified a network of 13,493 bots were used to tweet Pro Leave messages in the run up to the referendum.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/a-suspected-network-of-13000-twitter-bots-pumped-out-pro

Kimbers just went off on a sidetrack backed by misleading data

I take your point,

Its no wonder I am confused.

As for the Euro I only hope that there is a point in time when folk stop predicting its demise

ah yes , i remember the Pesetas and La lira being such strong currencies ( no need to devaluate them every other year) , and the low numbers of people unemployed in Spain and Italy .........

As for the Euro I only hope that there is a point in time when folk stop predicting its demise

Reminds me of the colleague in seasonal forecasting who predicted 9 of the last 3 El Ninos.

Kimbers just went off on a sidetrack backed by misleading data - plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

[img] [/img]

Already there !!

Strange. When I am in the pub I tend to talk to my real friends, not my internet chums. Tell us where you’re at and someone might be able to swing over and cheer you up.

my vote is lost within so many and so diluted with the citizens of Malta having multiple times my voting power that it effectively isn't.

I'll try again, just in case you did actually attend any form of schooling. It's quite simple...

So, just how much weight does your vote carry in these three situations:

1) General election for House of Commons; you are a right wing voter in a constituency that has the following voting pattern: 24% greens, 25% libs, 25% labour, 26% UKIP (Tories chose not to stand and split the vote)

2) An election for the UK's upper house

3) An election for the UKs head of state

You still quite sure the EU is so anti democratic?

the data to which you said
[quote}I take your point,

The fact I quoted someone else's post would I hope be sufficient to make it clear to whom I was responding - IGM clearly understood - but I will try to be more diligent in my signposting.

24% greens, 25% libs, 25% labour, 26% UKIP (Tories chose not to stand and split the vote)

So a completely unrealistic constituency.

I'll try again, just in case you did actually attend any form of schooling. It's quite simple

yes please keep going, I barely got any CSEs so any help you can give will be gratefully ignored...

The fact I quoted someone else's post would I hope be sufficient to make it clear to whom I was responding

I barely got any CSEs

It shows...

gratefully ignored...

If you spent less time ignoring facts and more time paying attention to them, you might learn something 💡

So a completely unrealistic constituency.

Alright, let's do 33% Lab, 33% Plaid, 34% Tory.

I note that as usual, the main point is evading you. Through intent or ignorance I'm not sure...

If you spent less time ignoring facts and more time paying attention to them, you might learn something

You would be wiise to take heed of those words rather than throwing them in the wrong direction.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/a-suspected-network-of-13000-twitter-bots-pumped-out-pro?utm_term=.bbo8Omd2ra#.kt8jyePLX2

They're still there accounts with an attractive lady profile pic

All they do is retweet Express or RT articles...

Take a look at Patriot Brit (@PatrioticBrits): https://twitter.com/PatrioticBrits?s=09

If you spent less time ignoring facts and more time paying attention to them, you might learn something

I'm not ignoring facts, just you 🙂

You would be wiise to take heed of those words rather than throwing them in the wrong direction.

With the questions over bots, Banks finances, dodgy loans etc.

How much needs to happen before the votes validity is questioned?

Too much

The viote has happened

The grown ups got involved this week. Wel’ll pay a bit more and we will be talking trade by December

😯

It's amazing how someone can just spectacularly miss/ignore the point.

Repeatedly.

Cue some patronising and condescension.

We all know it takes effort on his part to do this.

The viote has happened

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/01/africa/kenya-election/index.html

Doesn't mean it can't be annulled if the evidence points to corruption, which is what is becoming clearer in the UK.

Honestly attempts to overthrow the result are a waste of time. Remember, it was only advisory and parliament voted for A50 anyway. We should stop brexit because it's a bloody stupid idea, not because of some technical loophole...

If the objective is to get another vote then one needs two things

1. Doubts about the "democaracy" of the first vote
2. Evidence the populus feels differently today than when they voted.

I am not saying it will work but that is what you need.

“Brexit’s idiotic. It’ll be like committing suicide by walking into a door over and over again for years, leavers are imbeciles.”

Malcolm Tucker..

mefty - Member

In fact we were worse 10 years ago

So why have we improved relatively? Might it possibly because we are not so constrained in our economic policy?

would naturally look higher in Italy because a larger percentage of that group would naturally be in education.

I did a broadbrush analysis of the total of people in tertiary education over the population as a whole, we are at a similiar percentage to Germany and France (between 3.58% and 3.65%), Spain is a bit higher (4,23%) and Italy (3.01%) is an equivalent amount lower. Obviously you would need to look at demographics to get a more accurate picture.

Ah, beware Mefty my young padawan. If the same percentage do tertiary, but tertiary starts a bit later, then the percentage in education in the 15-24 range (which appears to be the definition of youth - other definitions may be available) will be larger even though the overall tertiary is the same. And that would account for the relative differences in the unemployment rate and ratio.

In fact the numbers you flag up counter the earlier suggestion that more folk decide to stay in education to avoid unemployment - that would show up as a larger percentage of the total population and with the exception perhaps of Spain your numbers don’t show that. That I find more surprising as I would think a higher unemployment rate would encourage people to stay in education - but perhaps the “real” unemployment rates aren’t that different.

Lastly - why are we relatively better than ten years ago? Don’t know but given the Euro had been around for 12 years at that time, one would have expected any effects to already be in play even then.

I didn't realize you thought your experience of older students implied they started later, whilst that may have been the case when you came across it, my guess is that this was mainly down to National Service which is pretty rare these days (Germany still has it), but common in those days. My experience probably around the same time was many in Holland spent longer than necessary at university, hence I had a common experience so they would enter the world of work in their mid to late 20s. However, the system was changed drastically. So I am not convinced.

one would have expected any effects to already be in play even then.

Not at all, the strictures of the Euro would only come into play when the relevant country needed a different monetary policy, which would develop over time as economies diverge (or indeed converge) pretty silly to suggest otherwise.

[url= https://medium.com/@MrWeeble/who-actually-trades-solely-under-wto-rules-1b6127ce33c6 ]Which counties trade using "WTO rules" only?[/url]

Well I imagine with the increasing use of zero hours contracts we are well on the way to emulating the slavery figures of Mauretania but sadly we don't have the iron ore to export. Jam maybe.

Not at all, the strictures of the Euro would only come into play when the relevant country needed a different monetary policy, which would develop over time as economies diverge (or indeed converge) pretty silly to suggest otherwise.

Not suggesting otherwise st all. Just suggesting that effect would most likely already have been seen after 12 years - particularly as there is no equal and opposite effect in the way you define it.

The older students in Italy was because they started later - I think they left school later.

I think the brexies only like the jam export thing on the hopes they can bring gollywogs back!

In the meantime everyone's debating who leaked details of May's latest EU dinner.

The sad thing is no one is questioning the picture painted of May;
Weak and desperate, boxed in by her own party, or that the UK is reduced to begging for a trade deal.

[img] [/img]

Dennis 😆 🙄

I'm not ignoring facts, just you

Yeah, my three year old daughter does that too when she's in the wrong

You would be wiise to take heed of those words rather than throwing them in the wrong direction.

Sorry, I should have directed them at you.

Well that first letter writer certainly has a good point. Clearly, the EU hasn't done a single good thing in its entire existence, as is easily confirmed by typing "what has the eu ever done for us" into your favourite search engine.

translation of the article

https://medium.com/@ninaschick/brexit-negotiations-not-without-pain-cb3705974bd6

doesnt sound that controversial, all pretty much obvious really (whether its genuine or not)

Sorry, I should have directed them at you.

Feel free, always happy to have a laugh. But you are way behind the tag team.

Well I imagine with the increasing use of zero hours contracts we are well on the way to emulating the slavery figures of Mauretania but sadly we don't have the iron ore to export.

Why all the attention on ZHCs when it represents <3% of UK workforce some/many of whom want the flexibility of ZHCs? Easy headlines?

why so dismissive of ~3 million people who don't know if they're going to get work from one day to the next?
perhaps you regard it as a lifestyle choice?

If people on ZHCs prefer that system, then no harm in offering them the option to regularise their hours...

interstingly the Bregretters that are being mentioned regards a 2nd referendum are from the lowest income brackets as the financial squeeze of the vote hurts, while middle class Levaers remain committed to the cause

I assume that those on ZHCs fall into the former category

I'm not. Simply avoiding framing conclusions about the uK employment market on the basis on one small segment of it. It's called perspective.

For some it is a lifestyle choice. For others it isn't. So even within the 3% you have some for whom ZHC is a choice they want to have.

The more I hear talk of a 2nd ref the less I like the idea. Maybe it would be "obvious" that the best choice is to stay in the EU, but it was obvious enough first time round too.

We've already lit the bridges now, might as well let them burn eh? 😉

Not at all, but parliament needs to do its job. They are elected to run the country, not to abdicate their decisions to popularity polls.

Not at all, but parliament needs to do its job. They are elected to run the country, not to abdicate their decisions to popularity polls.

you would think so, wouldn't you. but here we are.

Read this carefully. Interesting.

It is in fact up to London how this will end: with a good deal, no deal or no Brexit.

Not sure when he said it, but it’s being reported now, so perhaps last night?

Nope. Today.

It’s just hit Bloomberg too. Previous was BBC.

I see the anti democratic Tories and Brexiteers are out in full swing

[img] ?w=445&q=20&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&dpr=2&s=140a39e5c923360d9258131cf965f381[/img]

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/24/universities-mccarthyism-mp-demands-list-brexit-chris-heaton-harris

So much for remainers being opposed to democracy hey, Ninfan and Jambalaya?