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So back to the present.
Looking like a choice between no deal or what we have now perhaps? What do you think?
For me, not definite yet, but it seems to be heading over in those directions.
A negotiated settlement looking less likely daily and Britain looking more divided than ever.
No need to exaggerate the threats
No need to oversimplify them either. Right now anyone from the UK can wander into any EU country and stay there for as long as they like, doing as they please. After we leave, they won't be able to.
Possible access by some to visas with some conditions does not negate this. Stop being so blasé about this.
Looking like a choice between no deal or what we have now perhaps? What do you think?
I've always assumed toys out of pram and no deal was the plan our side.
But I think the EU will engineer a minimal deal and a transition period. They'll do just enough that May can claim a success.
It's in the EU's interest - they know that deal or no deal, the best of the UK - brains, businesses, investments, are leaving. An ordered transition and gentle let down for the UK (the death of a 1000 cuts) is much better for the EU than a chaotic departure and crash, which damages EU countries too.
The eventual outcome is the same, but a slower smoother transition is less disruptive for the EU.
If I was EU, that's what I'd do. String the UK along.
If I was head of a bank or multi-national with assets in the UK and looking to move, that's what I'd want.
Don’t worry IGM - the water level is rising up north. Easy to ignore
they know that deal or no deal, the best of the UK - brains, businesses, investments, are leaving.
Well, they're leaving the UK for the EU or elsewhere, that much appears certain.
I have worked in seven countries in my life - only two are in the EU (UK and France). Little hurdles are not brick walls
You are not average, THM. You are in a privileged position.
I am just employing and Italian and a ****stani.
You are employing A SPECIFIC ****stani. Not ANY ****stani. That is ALL the difference, and that's my point. To make it work you need the right circumstances. It's not open to ANY Pakstani, is it?
Well, they're leaving the UK for the EU or elsewhere, that much appears certain.
Yes they will geographically diversify. One of the lessons of Brexit is not to have a large part of assets exposed to the vagaries of a single electorate or political system.
I don't get this argueing over the bill business - both sides putting up random numbers.
We have an idea of our commitments and they have an idea of our commitments (and if we/they don't then that's another level of incompetance).
Two people get into a room with those numbers and contest the others position, retire and consider and seek instruction, and then negotiate again. And keep going.
It's pretty simple.
The EU saying the number should be more like X is just as messed up as our suggesting a lower number.
It's pathetic.
What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles, like we don't really want to be part of some large, undemocratic (see Corbyns arguments...) Federal institution, and we also don't like free movement as it is as it just seems to be a way to ensure there is always a cheap workforce available (also see Corbyns arguments...).
You are not average, THM. You are in a privileged position.
You very kind but wrong. I am an average person and went through the same channels as everyone else
France was easy, for sure, except for tax issues.
My kids expect to work overseas at some point - with my encouragement - and there is no reason why they shouldn’t
You're wrong TurnerGuy I think the core values of the EU are fundamentally the right thing to do and carping on about the sanctity of the "nation state" is pathetic. It's time to grow up.
As for the bill, cannot you see the EU is in the far stronger position so they just have to sit on their hands and wait, they don't need to engage?
When you give a dog a biscuit you wait for it to come to you.
The EU saying the number should be more like X is just as messed up as our suggesting a lower number.It's pathetic.
nah our government knows very well that it has to be higher
but Brexit, as sold, makes it very hard to explain this to the public without making a lot of Brexiters look like liars
Turnerguy - as has been shown repeatedly the EU is more democratic than the UK.
You're wrong I think the core values of the EU are fundamentally the right thing to do and carping on about the sanctity of the "nation state" is pathetic. It's time to grow up.
agreed
we don't really want to be part of some large, undemocratic (see Corbyns arguments...) Federal institution
Everything's relative. I don't know if you noticed, but our government interpreted 'Taking Back Control' as an opportunity to grant themselves the power to change our laws without parliamentary oversight, using medieval 'Henry the Eighth' powers. And, of course, there will now be no other authority to which you can appeal.
So lets just consider that when we're talking about undemocratic institutions. Previously you were a citizen. You have now become a subject. If they have their way, we'll probably all end up as serfs. Appropriate given the medieval laws they've used to achieve this
You do know it started with being concerned for their kids movement - or more accurately them[ the kids] being concerned by it- so its not about themselves.
As for democratic was we have an unelected head of state, a second chamber no one voted for and a "govt" ignoring parliament[ and being scared to put the bill fwd and ignoring votes] I think the democratic argument is a hard one to make. The EU is not without its failings but our democratic failings are far far greater.
What i dont understand is why the right wing agree with the free movement of money/goods/service but not people- it really shows what you value most. When they then lecture me on how i care more about money I just have to laugh at their pathetic argument.
What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles, like we don't really want to be part of some large, undemocratic (see Corbyns arguments...) Federal institution, and we also don't like free movement as it is as it just seems to be a way to ensure there is always a cheap workforce available (also see Corbyns arguments...).
You should read some of the 1012 other pages, there are many reasons I'd prefer to remain. I'll grant you than one of them is because I don't want to be poorer, in a poorer country, because a large number of idiots were whipped into a frenzy over muslamic ray guns, but that's a long way from being my key reason for wanting the country to bale out of Brexit.
carping on about the sanctity of the "nation state" is pathetic. It's time to grow up.
This.
And Turnerguy, do some reading up on democracy, then reconcile that with the UK's political system. I'm sure you'll find that first past the post, an unelected upper house, and a ****ing hereditary monarch don't feature too highly. Perhaps if you'd paid attention at primary school you'd know that.
You do know it started with being concerned for their kids movement - or more accurately them[ the kids] being concerned by it- so its not about themselves.
Yeah, my father also hinks cuclists should be remibed from the roads 'for their own safety'
Nothing to do with the right wong press. Nope.
Turnerguy, very simple, there are international rules, what we can sell, what we can buy, where we can fly, etc etc etc.
The world has moved on from nation states to one where everything is interconnected. Only the biggest and most powerful countries can set the agenda anymore, and that is not the UK.
You can either make the rules, and the only way for the UK is to be part of something bigger, or you can accept the rules.
You do know it started with being concerned for their kids movement - or more accurately them[ the kids] being concerned by it- so its not about themselves.
Yeah, my father also thinks cyclists should be moved off the roads 'for their own safety'
Nothing to do with the right wing press confirming his own bias
Previously you were a citizen. You have now become a subject.
We are subjects of her majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God Queen of this Realm and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith.
I agree about the back door legislation though, people seem to overlook this part of 'taking back control'
What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles,
The future state of the economy and the potential loss of a fundamental freedom would be regarded as political issues by most sane people. I'm not just fussed about the threat to my personal finances, but those of my kids who will be entering the labour market in the next decade.
My main concern is nothing to do with money. My main concern is what this lot are going to do with their newly self-appointed powers.
Look at the people we're talking about here. Have a read about their strongly held beliefs. They're all ridiculously right-wing, and have the open desire to turn Britain into a barely-regulated tax haven, with huge inequality, and an end to a lot of the stuff we take for granted - the NHS, welfare state etc. Just take a look across the Atlantic to see the kind of education, health and welfare system this lot want.
I personally don't want my kids growing up in that kind of country. From a financial point of view, a huge financial crisis (caused by.... oh I don't know.... maybe crashing out of the EU without a deal?) is the perfect opportunity to achieve this
The bottom line is that, given their obvious direction of travel, I wouldn't trust this lot as far as I could throw them!
I am also concerned about the shortage of skilled workers for the NHS. we have a shortage of nurses as over the last 20 years we have not trained enough and a large % are retiring in the next ten years. We do not have enough UK passport holders to fill these posts. Spain has a surplus of nurses so we recruited many of them. Now applications from the EU have dropped 95%. Where are the nurses we need going to come from? don't say asia - their nursing qualifications are not recognised in the UK - they have to be retrained to meet our standards.
* double post above (please ignore the thumbgeddon one)
What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles
@TurnerGuy, you had a good number of responses to this, are you ready to concede you are mistaken?
Malvern rider - I rather like the misspellings
are you ready to concede you are mistaken?
Doubtful. He appears to be today's rostered brexshitter. Brexshit policy dictates silence after being proven wrong, followed by a change of topic a few hours later if the next brexshitter isn't available to start their shift early.
What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles
I care deeply about political principles.
The concept of a nation is a pretty fluid one. Just ask anyone Scottish, Welsh, Catalan, Bavarian, Basque, etc etc. I want integration and co-operation between neighbours. I want to work together to increase prosperity, and I want that prosperity shared around.
Democracy, also, is a pretty wide-open concept. The EU isn't undemocratic, it's very clearly democratic as we vote for MEPs. You may not consider it to be democratic *enough* but that's a different argument. How much democracy does a country need? That's a pretty tough question to answer. Too much and bickering and partisanship prevent problems being solved; or politicians only act to protect their own jobs instead of for the benefit of the country (sound familiar?). Not enough and those in power can do what they want. But what if those in power want the same things as us?
I'm not arguing for a dictatorship. But I'm arguing against thinking of ultimate democracy as a panacaea. It's a tool to hold governments to account, not a governental system in itself. Otherwise we'd all get a vote on every commons bill. That would be bedlam.
So the EU was democratic enough for me, and it had the ability to do things that were unpopular with electorates and businesses, such as legislate for increased energy efficiency.
He appears to be today's rostered brexshitter.
Is THAT how they do it? 🙂
Brexshit policy dictates silence after being proven wrong,
If only the same could be said for remoaner BS - that keeps going on ad nauseam and getting more and more exaggerated each day
Being wrong seems to be a badge of honour
My kids expect to work overseas at some point - with my encouragement - and there is no reason why they shouldn’t
Well one reason why they shouldn't is that they won't speak the language as they didn't have the opportunity to study abroad via ERASMUS or whatever. That's before you even get to stuff like visas.
As molgrips said, these hurdles can be overcome by talented and determined individuals, but it just makes the hurdles a bit higher, so that more will fail to clear them.
Another 'picture tells a 1000 words' image from Brussles today
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Where are the nurses going to come from? this is a real issue
Being wrong seems to be a badge of honour
And you and your fellow brexiters wear it well thm.
Well you swapped sides so I guess you would knowBeing wrong seems to be a badge of honour
You're wrong TurnerGuy I think the core values of the EU are fundamentally the right thing to do and carping on about the sanctity of the "nation state" is pathetic. It's time to grow up.
Not so great, if you are young and want to work
Youth unemployment
France 23.00%
Spain 38.7%
Italy 35.5%
Well you swapped sides so I guess you would know
Money has no sides, jy 🙂
I am fortunate in that respect - one mini THM has 1st class honours in French and lived there for a year as part of Erasmus. Girlfriend 1st in German and Spanish, she also benefited from Erasmus and this was a key argument for me in remaining. Always good to be prepared!! I may have said that before.
There are always hurdles and they always changed. That’s life - nothing gets handed to us on a plate!!
I lived in Japan and couldn’t speak a word when I arrived. But you deal with it...
TurnerGuy is laughing at the response he got.
Political principles? For me, people above nations.
Nations only exist to serve the people, and if that fails then the nations want removing.
That said nations are transitory.
And on the EU, it’s been pretty good for the people of Europe - sustained peace in Western Europe for the first time in hundreds of years, uplifted human rights, decent quality of life. Yes there are richer and poorer, but overall we’re not too bad (compare how we were before).
But TurnerGuy knows this - he’s just winding you up.
And my compliments to him. Excellently done.
There are always hurdles and they always changed. That’s life - nothing gets handed to us on a plate!!
Not a great argument for needlessly adding more. You are an affluent white male. You are playing this game with the level set to "easy". Not everyone has it so good.
Leavers - nurses? where will the thousands we need come from?
Leavers - nurses? where will the thousands we need come from?
We will happily allow nurses to come to work from the EU. But not their partners or their elderly parents.
Yes right - all handed on a plate
That’s bloody lame Dr but not surprising
Not so great, if you are young and want to workYouth unemployment
France 23.00%
Spain 38.7%
Italy 35.5%
indeed unemployment varies hugely across EU
with such variation
is this is the fault of the EU or individual nations though?
so does poverty, in the UK we have record levels of in-work poverty, and indeed children in poverty.........
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Yes right - all handed on a plate
My mistake - you became white and male by your own hard work. Well done!
Not a great argument for needlessly adding more. You are an affluent white male. You are playing this game with the level set to "easy". Not everyone has it so good.
Nail on head.
THM seems to look at his own life, see it's all fine, and then extrapolate that everything's going to be fine. You may not be a signed up Tory but you are right of centre.
People will still work abroad, but only the lucky ones.
I'm skilled and affluent, I once tried to get work in the US. It's damn difficult.
Being wrong seems to be a badge of honour
You wear it very well. Care to highlight where I've been wrong? I'm all ears...
That’s life - nothing gets handed to us on a plate!!
Why should opportunities like working abroad be something you have to earn? We've already agreed it's beneficial, so why can't everyone have beneficial opportunities?
DrJ - Member
Leavers - nurses? where will the thousands we need come from?We will happily allow nurses to come to work from the EU. But not their partners or their elderly parents.
Under such conditions none will want to come ( expensive visas, only right to stay for a limited time, ?? needing private medical insurance). 95% drop in applications IIRC
Under such conditions none will want to come
Quite. I should have added an emoticon of some sort to my post.
Mol - argue with someone else. I support full FOM. I have enjoyed it and I have advised my children all their lives to prepare for it and GFI. I would expect the minis to live and work overseas at some stage
Go back a few years and ask how many new remoaners were happy with FOM!!!!
Oh and they come to earn money, so with the £ dropping they'll be getting less of it.
So, the usual bluster, toomuchhurt, wave your arms around like a demented windmill implying everyone else is wrong, then when one of those you cast those aspersions at challenges you, you simply ignore it. Grow up, you're not at high school any more.
That’s life - nothing gets handed to us on a plate!!
I know Trump got a small loan from his father of a million dollars charles worked damn hard to be his mothers son and the duke of westminster is where he is today due to personal endeavour.
Have you read the parable of the sower* I think Jesus explains it all rather well. Perhaps you should listen to him?
The economic wealth of your parents is still the greatest indicator of your likelihood to be wealthy not hard work. Parents know this it is why they send their kids to private school as wealth really can buy advantage - like you need that explaining to you
* amongst my favourite biblical passages** FWIW
** yes its a short list 😉
Mefty - you might want to check what that unemployment rate includes. It’s queered by the fact that many young folk are in education and therefore not in the denominator or numerator of the rate.
The unemployment ratio assumes education is a good thing and puts the unemployed over the whole population of that age group.
Of the countries you mention we currently have the lowest ratio (being 1.4% better than France, 2.4 to Italy and 7.1 to Spain).
Of course in 2007, we were flat last of those countries.
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so does poverty, in the UK we have record levels of in-work poverty, and indeed children in poverty.
You rather convenietly failed to mention that table is "at risk" of poverty, of course we have a benefits system and there is another table adjusting for those - rather surprisingly you didn't post that because it shows a rather different picture.
Mefty - nurses?
You rather convenietly failed to mention that table is "at risk" of poverty,
what this one? that does not differentiate between children and still shopws we lag behind many EU countries
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or this one detailing families that cant afford unexpected financial hits
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or this one looking at deprivation
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Of course the sunlit uplands of this Tory Brexit look set to fix all this..... 😯
This was quite an eye opener. In fact, it really wasn't as it's pretty obvious stuff
https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/921068161692205057
tjagain - Member95% drop in applications IIRC
It was 96%.
[url= https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/921330517064273921?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet ]No, nothing to do with xenophobia at all....[/url]
Mefty - you might want to check what that unemployment rate includes.
I take your point, I think the answer lies between the two, but it is clearly a huge problem for Southern Europe. There are plenty of young who are staying in education because they have no prospect of getting work and hope it will increase their chances.
Mefty - agree with the staying in education statement.
Overall lies, damn lies and statistics is the moral I think.
Overall lies, damn lies and statistics is the moral I think.
I don't agree because what has happened is an inevitable consequence of being stuck in a currency union with a much a stronger economy, which does not transfer its surpluses. These wonderful thoughtful kind leaders think it worth potential sacrificing a generation for the survival of their political project - sounds pretty ideological to me.
it's not like we'd neglect vast swathes of our population and condemn them to living in an even more depressed state for the sake of some vanity project. oh.
Mefty - on that basis the leadership in this country are as bad as anywhere else based on the ratio - which may not be news but is nowt to do with the EU either way. In fact we were worse 10 years ago (relative to others - not in absolute terms).
Also I remember being at university in Italy and I was a couple of years younger than the Italians, so the youth (15-25) unemployment rate would naturally look higher in Italy because a larger percentage of that group would naturally be in education.
I don't agree because what has happened is an inevitable consequence of being stuck in a currency union with a much a stronger economy, which does not transfer its surpluses. These wonderful thoughtful kind leaders think it worth potential sacrificing a generation for the survival of their political project - sounds pretty ideological to me.
Careful there mefty - that is not the edukated view 😉
also don't discount different ways of counting unemployed ( dunno if its been mentioned) Unemployed in the official UK gov sense is " claiming jobseekers allowance" thus excluding those such as one half of a couple who would like to work but cant get a job or claim benefit, there are many folk still on various sick and disability benefits who would work if they could, students in summer holidays and others. I don't know the methodology in other countries but I believe they count more of these sorts of groups by an large and again IIRC the UKs methodology undercounts more than others.
PS - for any stat there is an equal and opposing stat (Newton’s 3rd law of statistics). The trick is understanding the basis and context of the stats. To understand those unemployment rates & ratios you need to understand the culture in the areas concerned. I have a little understanding of what 18 year olds do in Italy because I was one. Also in the UK. I’d be very slow to grab the rate as a true indicator - it will in Italy at least be closer to the ratio.
The real crime is that in the UK, and possibly other places, the unemployment of the youth, by rate or ratio is 2 or 3 times that if the general population.
Also Shakespeare’s comment on stats is relevant - it even has a European trade connection 😉
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
An evil soul producing holy witness
Is like a villain with a smiling cheek,
A goodly apple rotten at the heart.
O, what a goodly outside falsehood hath!
These wonderful thoughtful kind leaders think it worth potential sacrificing a generation for the survival of their political project - sounds pretty ideological to me.
The irony of this on the brexit thread.
I don't agree because what has happened is an inevitable consequence of being stuck in a currency union with a much a stronger economy, which does not transfer its surpluses.
You mean like the UK, and its treatment of the regions?
You're wrong TurnerGuy I think the core values of the EU are fundamentally the right thing to do and carping on about the sanctity of the "nation state" is pathetic. It's time to grow up.
The EU is neo-liberal and seems very skewed towards globalisation, the benefit of corporations, and the exploitation of a cheap workforce.
Just look at the contents of TTIP for one thing - OK it isn't going to get through, but the fact that they drafted it with that content and in secrecy, and then increased the secrecy with Greenpeace leaked it, sums it up for me.
As for the bill, cannot you see the EU is in the far stronger position so they just have to sit on their hands and wait, they don't need to engage?
Bills can normally be itemized, you wouldn't pay a resturant bill if they just plucked a number out of the air.
It is just pathetically incompetent.
Turnerguy - as has been shown repeatedly the EU is more democratic than the UK.
my vote is lost within so many and so diluted with the citizens of Malta having multiple times my voting power that it effectively isn't. Again, has Corbyn been so wrong all these years?
Perhaps if you'd paid attention at primary school you'd know that.
Take a long look at yourself...
ah you're back. well done!
you said:
What's also pathetic is all you remainers semm to care about is whether it is hitting you financially and being able to move around freely, not any political principles
you're either demonstrably wrong on that (read back ...), or you think everyone who responded is lying.
which is it?
simple question.
@TurnerGuy, you had a good number of responses to this, are you ready to concede you are mistaken?
I take it that's a joke ?
Where are the nurses going to come from? this is a real issue
where did they come from before, I wonder?
I met someone who worked in the NHS that reckoned the quality of staff went down once it had been diluted by EU staff compared to the previous sources of staff...
And is is not racist to discriminated against those from outside the EU? At least brexit will put everything on a level playing field for all immigration. What is so special about people from the EU?