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A lot of KY jelly
FFS we essentially know what is happening with Eu nationals
That will depend on the negotiations won’t it.
It's possible I am misunderstanding something, but were both these statements made concerning the same topic? I'm having trouble reconciling them, they appear substantially inconsistent.
Never mind chaps. Pull together and get on with it.
Interesting reading former Irish PM, John Bruton’s words:
Bruton told the Brussels branch of the IoD: “I hope more negotiating time can be agreed. If not, the tempo of the negotiation must be immediately, and dramatically, increased. Unfortunately, there is little sign that the current UK government, the originator of Brexit, sees this at all. Their mind is on other things.”
Of course, none of that is to say that Labour managing these negotiations wouldn’t further expose deep divisions. [EDIT: in their own party.]
Tick tock and all that...
There simply isn’t enough time to hammer anything out and as unpalatable to Brexiteers as it might be, A50 should be extended by another four or five years.
May has done the classic trick - as with the £20bn - of covering both bases. Exactly what she should be doing.
She may be out of her depth but she is not a complete fool.
Interesting reading former Irish PM, John Bruton’s words:
remoaner
Negotiations? I think DD has somehthing to do with those, when he can be bothered to turn up.
All the time in the world… tick tock.
So do we know exactly or is it all for negotiation?
May has done the classic trick
Yes, she has used a lot of words and said nothing, made no progress and got the UK no further to a solution.
At his daily press briefing in Brussels, the EC’s chief spokesman, Margaritis Schinas, insisted the next move had to come from the UK.“There is a clear sequencing to these talks. There has been so far no solution found on step one, which is the divorce proceedings, so the ball is entirely in the UK court for the rest to happen,” he said.
All perfectly clear...
A50 should be extended by another four or five years.
That's a possibility, though the EU might just insist we withdraw and come back when we're ready. Which will of course be never. Depends how flexible they are prepared to be.
On the contrary things have moved in after Florence albeit as a glacial pace. The ball is in .... (joke)
Back to work now. Got Brexshit to prepare for !!!
She may be out of her depth but she is not a complete fool.
Maybe. Maybe not. But she has surrounded herself with them
[img] 
[/img]
Now then.
Essentially. That’s an interesting word.
Sometimes it means we just need to sign, sometimes it means just about to fall apart, sometimes it means 90% complete where it will stay forever.
I wonder what it means with regard to the ongoing status of EU nationals.
Good to see the remainer Scots getting on with trying to sort the issue though THM. Now if we can just convince the Brexies in charge of the negotiation to do the same.
It’s a very interesting word indeed and well used.
Sturgeon looked a shadow of her former self on Marr. Reality hits home. In contact to the v chirpy Ruth 😉
Depends how flexible they are prepared to be.
I think they’d probably help us to extend it - it would be in the interests of the bigger players - were we to not leave without a deal.
Of course our best chance of re-joining would be to crash out onto WTO whereby we’d be back in within a couple of decades. Not sure what to wish for to be honest. 🙂
Essentially. That’s an interesting word.
Yep I am essentially a multi millionaire, I bought a ticket and everything.
it would be in the interests of the bigger players - were we to not leave without a deal
You almost fooled me with the double negative there DD
- infinite loop error -
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-talks-negotiations-theresa-may-david-davis-margaritis-schinas-juncker-barnier-eu-brussels-a7990406.html ]Its like groundhog day isn't it?[/url]
Barnier has just stated the ball isn't in his court at all as its not the EU's job to provide solutions to problems created by the UK, its the UK's job to provide solutions to the Irish border, citizens rights etc, and since the last round of talks, nothing has changed
Dave was too busy doing other stuff, so didn't bother attending negotiations today
Tick tock....
It's almost as if BOTH sides are spinning it out in the hope it might just wither and die.
I think the EU are still waiting for Davies and co to actually start negotiating seriously. At the moment its the UK government that needs to show some ideas / find some solutions
to be fair we have moved they have not
In negotiations both sides need to negotiate and there has been no movement from the eu - its not a negotiating point its a test that has to be passed.
I personally think its foolish of the Eu to think the bill can be agreed without access as it seems blindingly obvious to me that how generous we are with the settlement is related to how generous they are with access
WHo you blame is up to you but there has been zero movement from the EU and some, however much you wish to criticise it, from the UK.
Personally I see no need to pay the budget unless we have access and the EU view that we signed it so we have to pay, even if we leave, is unrealistic.
I dont want to leave the EU but i dont want to pay for the EU and not have access either. What is the point of that ?
sorry Junkyard - I simply don't agree. There has been no significant movement from the Tories - just proposals they must know are completely unsatisfactory. the ~EU do not need to do anything. This is all the tories doing.
As for paying? We agreed that budget and spending plans - its honorable to pay your debts.
So where has May and the three clowns compromised?
You see why the EU wants the "divorce" settling first… it has nothing to do with paying for access, it's about honouring existing commitments that have a timespan beyond March '19. We may, in addition, choose to pay for future acesss, during transition and/or longer term, but that is a separate matter.I dont want to leave the EU but i dont want to pay for the EU and not have access either. What is the point of that ?
If we chose not to settle "the divorce bill"…
Will the EU be allowed to stop paying the pensions of UK staff?
We've asked for fissile material contracts overseen by Eurotom to continue… will that be done for us for free?
When seeking replacement trade and other arrangements, with nonEU countries, how will they take into account our refusal to honour previous arrangements with the EU (some which also include third countries)?
When the big battles begin in earnest to sort our WTO position, do we want one of the biggest parties behind us, or against us?
We agreed that budget and spending plans - its honorable to pay your debts.
Its stupid to keep paying for something you are no longer a part of dont have access to and are not getting any benefits of membership due to not being a member. I agree to pay tax but not if I dont work.
Its stupid to think us leaving should have zero impact on that budget and we should be "honourable".
There has been no significant movement from the Tories
There has been movement though and none from the EU
Not sure listing will lead to anything other than a debate on whether they are significant or not but our position now is not identical to our position at the start unlike the EU's whose position is the same. Only one side is trying to negotiatewhere has May and the three clowns compromised?
I am not criticising the EU here but i see little point in failing to accurately describe reality.
clearly these exist [ Jamby aside has anyone suggested walking away and paying nothing?] for say pensions and many many other areas but they cannot extend to paying for a budget beyond the time we are actually a member and getting any benefits.t's about honouring existing commitments that have a timespan beyond March '19
Things have changed the EU needs to recognise this rather than just say well you agreed the budget up to x . we did but we were a member then and not leaving. Like arguing i need to obey club rules and fees after I leave. In what sense have I left if I am still paying?
Problem is with that its gone like this
EU - this is our position
UK - we want cake and eat it
EU - this is our position
UK - ok just a bit of cake.
Moving from a position that is simply unacceptable a tiny way towards the other side is not negotiation. Its just stupid. Trouble is May and the three clowns arte actually playing to in house tory infighting with what they say. They are not negotiating in any way. An opening position that is 0% then moving to 5% is not negotiating with good intent. Its laughable.
rom a position that is simply unacceptable a tiny way towards the other side is not negotiation
Its certainly closer to it than not moving your position at all
The EU does not have to move. They picked a rigid set of parameters and are sticking to them. Those parameters are the minimum they can possibly accpt. they cannot go any lower
well at least we both agree they are not negotiating
Nope - they are waiting for the UK to start negotiating seriously. Once they have some serious proposals then maybe they will.
🙄
come on Junkyard. Nothing from Maybot and her pals is a serious negotiating point. they have made no offers at all that are in anyway serious or acceptable. Just playing to their own allies in the UK
I think the divorce analogy is better than the "leaving a club" one. Think of the net or neutral EU contributors as parents and the net receivers as kids. The UK was the prime mover in having more kids (eastern expansion) against the wishes of the rest of the family. Now we want to walk out on the relationship and chase after some other bit of stuff elsewhere. If it were a real divorce a judge would surely insist on some form of maintenance payments, at least until the kids had grown up.
“Most voters aren’t really thinking about it in a very analytical way… the people behind the leave campaign are voting with their guts. There’s no spreadsheet. This is much like a divorce without a pre-nup. You’re voting to leave, and we’ll take care of all the financial details later.”
A quote from one of those experts we'd had enough of, that has bubbled up today because of them winning a Noble prize.
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/richard-thaler-nobel-prize-in-economics-winner-2017-behavioural-economics-nudge-theory-a7990291.html ]Indy link[/url]
Again we both agree they have made offers - note your use of the pluralcome on Junkyard. Nothing from Maybot and her pals is a serious negotiating point. they have made no offers at all that are in anyway serious or acceptable. Just playing to their own allies in the UK
Why given the fact one side is moving its position and the other is not do you decide to focus your ire on the ones not making serious offers rather than the ones not making any offers?
the EU has set some criteria that has to be achieved it is not negotiating we are - its impossible to negotiate with someone who wont change opinions ....as we are both about to demonstrate 😉 .
re the divorce analogy I like your explanation but its more like you agreed to buy a second holiday home and they keep it whilst expecting you to pay for it whilst never being able to use it.
Trying to boil this stuff down into simple analogies in an intellectual race to the bottom is part of how we got into this shit in the first place.
*bangs head on floor*
this is like negotiating with the EU I even agreed with you and still I have not moved enough for you 😉
the EU is playing hard ball , they know they are in the strong position and taking full advantage of the situation .
you cant blame them for that .
Strange, I thought that the EU position papers (offers if you like) were published months before ours were. Agreed by leaders of 27 countries and published for the world to read, And they were clear with plenty of real detail. People talking about our late, and deliberately ambiguous, papers as "concessions" or "movement" is laughable. We haven't set out any real position, or "offer" on much at all. Slowly starting to form positions (or, if you're feeling charitable, reavealing our positions) isn't negotiating… "we" haven't even properly formed a starting position.Why given the fact one side is moving its position and the other is not do you decide to focus your ire on the ones not making serious offers rather than the ones not making any offers?
You have successfully argued/proved they have a clear position not that they have negotiated,
I think everyone would have to agree our view, however ill defined it remains, has changed where as the EU has not. I dont disagree with your explanation of how poor it has been.
The only negotiating going on is in the cabinet… and May's warm words in speeches do not give anyone anything to work with. The EU haven't moved, but, even if they wanted to, what is there to move towards? What does our government want?
To be a politician doesn't require a track record in delivering results, just a track record in convincing enough people you may deliver results.
we agreed to pay till the end of the budget for a transition deal we agreed to take into account ECJ rulings * so we are moving they are not
Given this I dont see how you can call the EU repeating, an all be it clear , message over and over again as negotiating.
I am not saying we have been competent but they have not even been trying.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/may/03/the-six-brexit-traps-that-will-defeat-theresa-may
See sequencing here - its basically there attempt to delay negotiations and we should see it as such. I would not be surprised for them to play hardball over finances then say no to any economic deal.
* TBH to think a sovereign nation is going to let a foreign powers courts rule over people here is bonkers. They would not accept UK courts ruling over EU decisions so why ask for something you would not accept in a "negotiation"?
EU nationals should be given a period of time say 5 years and then accept they live her under UK law like the rest of us. Can you imagine the reaction if EU people have better rights than we do - its not why anyone voted brexit.
EU do not need to do anything.
No really. They will be so happy if the UK invokes a hard Brexshit. 😯
This is all the tories doing.
The gap between Tories and Labour Is about as wide as a Rizzla paper and yet people can't escape defining this in petty party political terms 😯
IGM - how's the journey. Mine just started with a rather nice wheat beer!
Junkyard - take todays debacle. May concedes ECJ must have jurisdiction during a transition period. Now its 100% clear to anyone this is essential. there can be no transition period without this. Are you really claiming thats movement on negotiations? I'd call it accepting the inevitable. There is no negotiation possible here. Its a binary choice and the EU could never accept even a temporarily membership in any way or form without the ECJ. so if you want a transition period from them you must have ECJ jurisdiction. t
Kelvin - read what they publish and you will find out
We agreed to the sequencing. Why would we expect it to change?
The recent ECJ comments from May are meaningless. She has not suggested that ECJ rulings will be followed, or mirrored, by our courts, only "considered". Without external arbitration, or a higher court to resort to, it means absolutely nothing.
Trying to tie payments we have already committed to, in return for delaying our departure form something only we are asking to leave in the first place, isn't going to get anyone excited beyond the UK. Why would it?
How do I block THM? He knows from my past scrutiny, including discovering of holes and errors, of the EU position papers, and the government bills and position papers, that I do read this stuff. But still he keeps up this childish shit. Absolutely sick of it. Tedious troll.
We have agreed that we will honour our financial obligations we just haven't agreed on what they include. Read the EU positioning paper
And if you agree to signing up to all of that up from then you are a bigger fool than Freddie the Fat Fool from Falmouth
Well why do you post things that are blatantly untrue if you read what we are proposing ?
I'm out of this thread 'till 2018. Enjoy.
I agree with Junkyard.
Seems to me the EU negotiating position is to back the UK into either a humiliating climb down or out on your ear. Can't say I'm surprised.
kelvin - MemberHow do I block THM?
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/stw-killfile-plugin/page/2
The informed have said this from the start - both sides start from incompatible positions but one side is trying to bully that other. They ignore the fact that they will be losers here too but they are too proud to back down. So we should play v hard ball and call their bluff. And the gov and the oppo should be united in that position
Then it would get interesting
This is all the tories doing.The gap between Tories and Labour Is about as wide as a Rizzla paper and yet people can't escape defining this in petty party political terms
Simply a statement of historical fact. The referendum was called by a Tory PM. No evidence that a Labour PM would have done so.
So define labours position for us?
There's such a huge gulf between what might reasonably be expected of the UK and what Davies is offering that progress seems unlikely.
On NI the EU is insisting on some kind of physical checks at the border as it would be the EU border with the UK and the EU needs to be able to stop Britian flooding the EU with tarif free goods from the rest of the world (tarif free trade with the rest of the world was a reason for Brexit remember). The UK has so far refused this.
On the divorce payment the figures I've seen from the UK side, £20bn and £38bn, have both been denied and are far from the figures calculated and presented by the EU. The UK figures barely cover membership during the Art. 50 period and an eventual transition period, adding the part of EU debt attributable to the UK and pensions gives a figure of around 100bn euros. The EU needs a figure with parliamentary backing to work on, that's when negotiations will start, and end if the figure is seen as rediculously low.
The DUP having a hold on the Tories means progress on NI is unlikely so I can't see "negotiations" going far. Negotiations thus far can sumarised as:
Britain "we hear what you're asking and we refuse point blank, go whistle".
EU "OK, next meeting in two months then".
and repeat at each meeting of Davies and Barnier.
has her position changed if so its negotiationsMay concedes ECJ must have jurisdiction during a transition period. Now its 100% clear to anyone this is essential. there can be no transition period without this. Are you really claiming thats movement on negotiations?
I was referring to taking ECJ rulings into account on our courts when making decisions re EU nationals post separation. The EU want to retain jurisdiction after separation
[quote=kelvin ]How do I block THM? .... Absolutely sick of it. Tedious troll....I'm out of this thread 'till 2018. Enjoy.
TJ gives you the solution, many of us feel the same as you dont leave the forum or thread because of this.
And the truth
(2) Ensuring the avoidance of a hard border on the island of Ireland is central to protecting the gains of the Peace Process
You couldn't make it up!
So define labours position for us?
Not relevant as I already said. Whether they're pro or anti, they wouldn't have got us into this situation. It's purely a result of Tory internal politics.
UK said they will commit to paying current budget ? have they given an actual figure yet ?
How about the irish border ? anything concrete ?
on the other hand the EU citizens proposals seem fair to me .
we cannot as the good friday agreement collapses. Does the Eu really want a return to the troubles?The UK has so far refused this.
Britain "we hear what you're asking and we refuse point blank, go whistle".EU "OK, next meeting in two months then".
Except there has been movement in our position, Even the EU has accepted that we have moved nearer just not near enough so I think its actually
EU "we hear what you're asking and we refuse point blank, go whistle".
UK "OK, next meeting in two months then".
So NI is a catch 22 with the only way out being to cancel Brexit.
Edit to add: The Good Friday agreement was torn up when th eTories formed a coalition with the DUP, the British government is no longer impartial.
on the other hand the EU citizens proposals seem fair to me .
What are they, again?
cchris2lou - MemberUK said they will commit to paying current budget ? have they given an actual figure yet ?
20 billion for the next two years is the offer. come back when you are serious was the reply
How about the irish border ? anything concrete ?
Nope - nothing at all. Waffle and bluster but nothing concrete.
Sorry which side is negotiating again and trying to reach a deal 😉20 billion for the next two years is the offer. come back when you are serious was the reply
PLEASE NO JUST A JOKE
EU citizens can stay and then would have to register . it is not fom but not much hastle to me .
20 billions was mentioned but i thought uk gov was going to send a more detailed offer to the EU . has it been done yet ?
EU citizens can stay and then would have to register
Which EU citizens ?
I offer you 40k for your house, Junkyard.
eu citizens living in the uk .
eu citizens living in the uk .
All EU citizens? Are you sure?
Paypal Gift ?
Whilst I appreciate the offer and its in the right direction its £100k take it or leave it .
I am not negotiating
Essentially the EU has set criteria it has not entered a negotiation
Likewise if you pay the £100k we can discuss the washing machine and the lights and flooring but not until then 😉
I m not disputing that the EUs position is not a fine for them but it is not really a negotiation position and they are not trying. We are all be it poorly. Its their market and they control but essentially it looks like the options are acquiesce to their demands or get months of this.
May has moved they have not. I dont see any other way to describe what has happened.
The White paper released by Fox outlines the no deal scenario... Lots of red tape
The Good Friday agreement was torn up
Will there be a point when you stop making things up?
. This paper sets out the different UK and EU negotiating positions as well as how they both pledge to honour the Good Friday Agreement,
The issue that needs to be debated is simple. Under what terms will the uk have access to the single market and EU have access to the uk. The rest follows after that not before. The Eu knows this. So do we.
We need to stand firm and ensure that they come up the table ready for meaningful negotiations not simply hoe to protect their budget.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/a-view-from-germany/
Also interesting May refuses to answer whether she's had legal advice on how to stop Brexit. 😉
I am not sure how times they need to state their position before you accept they dont know this and they disagree?Under what terms will the uk have access to the single market and EU have access to the uk. The rest follows after that not before. The Eu knows this. So do we
FWIW i dont disagree with the fact that the above has to happen nor that we need to
though I am less sure standing firm is the methodensure that they come up the table ready for meaningful negotiations
However for you to accuse someone of making things up and then claim the EU know the exact opposite of their constantly stated opinion may lead some to conclude you are in fact making things up.
Britain is pressing on with Brexit with a government that includes the DUP. Brexit and the Good Friday agreement are incompatible on many levels as you'll see if you read through the agreement. The agreement includes freedoms and responsibilites that are incompatible with NI and Eire being on two sides of an EU/rest of world frontier. Negotiating those away or simply removing them (hard Brexit) is in breach of the Good Friday agreement (and if you refuse to honour your responsibilities in a signed agreement then in popular parlance you are "tearing it up").
also anyone born in Ireland is able to be an Irish citizen so therefore an EU one. Not sure how we get over that one.