[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Given some house prices even a 10% deposit is 15-20k

[url= https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-house-price-index-summary-july-2017/uk-house-price-index-summary-july-2017 ]Average house price in England is currently at £243,220[/url] (July HPI figures).

If you're earning an average UK salary (25k?) and trying to buy in London then forget it, that's life...

Agreed. In London the average is £488,729 😯

Barry Sheene's dad imported racing motorbikes, he didn't have to swim too far for his.

Had lunch with a load of students today, a lot of them (the vocal ones at least) felt robbed by Brexit I think they fall into that conservativehome writers ^^^ description posted by mefty, it's a generation the Tories just don't seem to 'get'

maybe you should accept that Brexit is not a Tory issue - there was a significant labour vote for Brexit and also a significant number of labour voters feel betrayed by Corbyn as he 'appears' to be backing a soft Brexit.

And there were some brexit voters amongst the young as well...

The

s Kimberd points out above, these young people are the new power base. Lots did not vote in the referendum but voted in the GE, they are the ones that will win the next election for momentum/Jeremy - they don't have a clue about Tony Ben or Tony Blair for that matter

and they are going to feel doubly hacked off if JC gets his way and has a hard brexit.

maybe you should accept that Brexit is not a Tory issue

The appalling execution of Brexit is a Tory issue. Glib, false, phrases like "citizen of nowhere" and "never felt truly at home in the EU" are ****ing Tory issues!

The referendum itself was a tory issue.

It's abso-*ing-lutely a Tory issue. Pure and simple.

Dave promised a referendum for one reason, and one reason only... to out-UKIP UKIP. It was a short-sighted piece of political expediency done purely to placate his own rabid backbenchers.

If those Tory backbenchers weren't so absolutely unhinged, or Dave hadn't been so monumentally arrogant, then this whole mess would never have happened.

And since the referendum, the factional in-fighting within the Tory party has taken absolute precedence over everything.

Next week is going to be the most horrific example of fiddling while Rome burns. The clock is ticking away, and all these shower of *s care about is getting one over on each other

Its absolutely tragic. In decades to come, people will look back at this period in our countries history in disbelief. Its a textbook example of how the narrow, short-term interests of an uncaring, self-absorbed cabal can usher in devastating consequences for everyone else

^^ /thread

Don't worry, at current trends the execution of Brexshit will be a labour issue. Sir KS aside, we will be in REAL trouble then

Yes that's great THM, what would we do without you to remind us how much worse Labour would be.

Well its one off two parties who are going to deliver Brexshit. You decide..

As I have said before, my preference would be for Starmer and Hammknd and their ilk to work TOGETHER but it won't happen

The musketeers may be bad, but FFS have you seen the alternative?

I suspect a Labour managed Brexit, if it came to that, would be less antagonistic and smoother. They're capable of dialogue and internationalism, the ToryKIP aren't.

Suppressing dialogue you mean

International - protectionism, dislike of foreign ownerhips etc

For a moment, I thought you might have been serious 😉

Give labour a bit more time and it will come round to staying in the EU (at least materially, if not technically). They are almost there already.

Then THM might have to decide whether his distaste for Labour exceeds his profound aversion to brexit.

Good job you or Matt didn't say democratic then 😀

Democratic what? If Labour win an election on a single market/anti-brexit/similar platform then of course that overturns the ref, just as the last election overturned the previous tory commitment to staying in the single market (well it would have done, only they didn't actually win).

The Troy commitment was to honour the result as inconvenient as that proved to be for most of us

We shall see won't we - labour are a split on Brexshit as the Tories but with a different type of nutter. Lest see what they campaign on - last time it was in a "keep you head down and don't mention Brexshit card." Will they be brave enough to have the courage of their conviction - Corbyn hates Europe after all

wow did THM just accuse people of suppressing dialogue :)[img] [/img]

Just need to add the remoaner subtitle 😉

It's abso-****ing-lutely a Tory issue. Pure and simple.

but so many of the labour faithful didn't have to vote for it...

So you're saying that Dave should have ignored his mandate to have a referendum, so ignoring democracy?

so ignoring democracy?

It's only democracy if non-racists alone get to vote

First up he should never have offered it, then he should have get the question right, humiliated Borris and delayed it for actual useful legislation.
Just because it's in the manifesto doesn't mean it's going to happen or are you new to politcs?

Bless

#Blessed?

Yes Brian

[quote=TurnerGuy ]So you're saying that Dave should have ignored his mandate to have a referendum, so ignoring democracy?

Because it was in the manifesto? Along with all sorts of other things they didn't do.

More news for you - just because somebody voted for a party doesn't mean they agreed with everything in the manifesto. Though even if they did, it's an interesting definition of democracy when 63% of the electorate voted against it.

Careful there aracer, that is 2 hard concepts in 1 post.
So do the Tories have a mandate to do anything now?

More news for you - just because somebody voted for a party doesn't mean they agreed with everything in the manifesto. Though even if they did, it's an interesting definition of democracy when 63% of the electorate voted against it.

Not that interesting, it is called Representative Democracy, pretty common.

The referendum was held under the clear knowledge that the result would be respected whatever the outcome - if people didn't get that, then more fool them

Of course, but it does mean that the claim for a mandate for something which has to be done because the people voted for it is on extremely shaky ground.

point being that when it suits you can opt out of the awkward bits your party pledged while saying others support 100% of what theirs put in the shredding/manifesto

Hell the Tories even managed to change theirs during the election after it had gone to the printers

[quote=teamhurtmore ]The referendum was held under the clear knowledge that the result would be respected whatever the outcome - if people didn't get that, then more fool them

I hope you're not calling the British public fools? Surely nobody voted in the referendum without knowing what they were voting for?

Bless

patronising...

Meanwhile between Barnier and Davies the negociations are going nowhere as Davies fails to understand he's agreed to sort out NI FOM and his debts before moving on and hasn't made any concrete proposals, even the 20bm he now says was "invented".

As the polls turn against Brexit (52:48 remain) the respecting democracy/the will of the people argument is weakening.

The only party that said that no longer have a clear majority in parliament. All bets are off.
If there was a ground swell of public opinion against Brexit when the terms become clearer then all other bets are off, who would go through with something with a country opposing it?
Would that be democratic?

Of course, but it does mean that the claim for a mandate for something which has to be done because the people voted for it is on extremely shaky ground.

If that's shaky ground, you are arguing from a punt.

Sorry Ed - x-thread humour doesn't x-border obviously. You miserable athiests

Still missing the point on the EU negotiation (sic) tactic I see 😯

Agnostic.

If Brexit looks like a car crash now, I dread to think what it's going to look like by the end of next week once Boris, Redwood, IDS et al have been given the stage for a week of xenophobic, little Englander ranting, cheered on by an audience of bitter old racists

Boris, Redwood, IDS et al have been given the stage for a week of xenophobic, little Englander ranting, cheered on by an audience of bitter old racists

Yep the clowns will be playing to their swivel eyed base, further pissing off the EU & embarassing the UK

If people didn't realise that a vote to leave would be overturned, then more fool them 🙂

deviant - Member

A lot of millennials seem to want to look for blame everywhere while waiting for someone else to remedy the situation for them...

And why not? They didn't create the situation and they have no real power to change it. If there's ever been a generation that has a right to blame someone else it's the millenials

If that's shaky ground, you are arguing from a punt.

At least my punt floats

Not that interesting, it is called Representative Democracy, pretty common

Its an effect of FPTP rather than with representative democracy.

Representative democracy is a form of democracy in which people vote for representatives who then vote on policy initiatives as opposed to a direct democracy, a form of democracy in which people vote on policy initiatives directly

cheered on by an audience of bitter old racists

I think I'm quite liberal but its these references that got us in this situation.

It wasn't 17 million racist who voted out.
It was 17 million people who didn't want intimidating foreign speaking gangs dominating their towns. They want to be able to access health care and schooling and housing and not lose out to financial migrants.

Those are legitimate concerns and should be addressed sensibly not just labelled racist and ridiculed.

Actually wilburt my mum voted out because she felt sorry about "what we did to Australia in the 70s".

And a bunch of people thought they were voting for more money for the NHS, that was all.

Those are legitimate concerns and should be addressed sensibly

It seems people don't like hearing foreign languages spoken. A lot of complaints about this. Maybe people need to get over this dislike? It's not really grounded is it?

cheered on by an audience of bitter old racists

I think I'm quite liberal but its these references that got us in this situation.

They want to be able to access health care and schooling and housing and not lose out to financial migrants.

Apparently there are whole streets where all the signs are Polish and everything. I don't know exactly where, it is somewhere down south though. It must be true, I was told it by a brexiteer in Lancashire.

Representative Democracy

[i]Un[/i]representative Democracy would be a better name.

They want to be able to access health care

Well they are ****ing idiot numpties who shouldn't be trusted with a vote on Strictly if they think that cutting the immigration that substantially funds and staffs the NHS is going to help rather than hinder them access health care.

To be fair, that's what they were told. Repeatedly. You can't expect 30 million people to research what really goes on as regards immigration, tax, NHS staffing… and on and on. We have MPs to spend their time on that kind of stuff.

Using the NHS was the Leave campaign's trump bullshit card… Dominic Cummings is a genius.

Anyway…

[b]Edit - [/b]Oh, that's the edited one, without the Dad"s Army style attacking of the UK and the NHS by migrants… the original long one seems to be MIA.

Nope I'm not letting any goverments of the hook, the opposite. A significant proportion of the shortage in housing is due to migration.
People are effected by that because either they cant get a house or more houses are being built unnecessarily

The voices being foreign 'adds' to the intimadating aspect of 10+ youth/adult males standing around talking loudly, spitting and generally being ****s.

It doesnt matter what your opinions are if there is a significant proportion of people who have a bad experience or are uncomfortable with migration levels you need to talk to them not ridicule them.

So train our own kids to be doctors and nurses or allow migration of doctors and nurses. Its not that difficult a problem!

They are pretty unlikely to be the dossers I have to pick my way through each day.

Where are you trying to buy a house? What proportion of local buyers are recent immigrants?

10 people speaking "foreign" is a gang, 10 speaking "local" are lads?

Wilburt - I wasn't referring to Brexit voters generally as bitter old racists. I was referring to the scenes we will doubtless be treated to at the Tory party conference next week. It's going to be absolutely cringe-worthy I'm sure.

The unhinged right of the Tory party won't be able to help itself. The likes of Redwood and IDS will be crowing over the referendum result, demanding the hardest of Brexits, and slagging off the EU in the most illiberal xenophobic dog-whistle language they can get away with.

The cameras will pan out to reveal an audience cheering them to the rafters. An audience exclusively white, elderly, most of whom will have recently started a sentence with "I'm not racist, but....."

Just out of interest, what proportion of your take-home were you actually saving and what were you paying in rent?

I was rolling over between £600 - £1000 per month and putting it away in a savings account... i bought a crappy house that needed new double glazing, new carpets throughout, all the doors replacing etc...not a particularly nice area either...but it was the South East and had good road and train links to London...and the sheeple love that because London is the centre of the universe apparently. 🙄
The hard work continued for about 12 months after I completed in order to get the house up to scratch...11 years later we sold up, we'd paid off nearly half the mortgage and seen a rise of 70k on the pile of crap...we played the long game andb it worked for us, we could then take a load of equity to a cheaper and nicer part of the UK...i think today's kids expect instant gratification, it's symptomatic of a generation that can do everything quickly on their phone and online.

Yes, it worked for you… and it was no doubt flipping hard… but timing was important… especially where you were… imagine trying to repeat that now.

It doesnt matter what your opinions are if there is a significant proportion of people who have a bad experience or are uncomfortable with migration levels you need to talk to them not ridicule them.

Agree with this.

i think today's kids expect instant gratification

Do you know any of these kids? Have you spoken to them a lot? Or are you just spouting prejudice?

I used to agree with the "talk not ridicule" approach, until during the referendum campaign, and the preceding election, I tried talking to people who think that the problems around them are caused by migration… you just hit a brick wall, very fast. It's often a gut feeling, like a religion, that no amount of talking though the issues will change. "Avoid not ridicule" is my approach from now on. Just act like you are the outsider and let them get on with the blame shifting, it's their country now, and they're only reluctantly sharing it with the rest of us.

It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of an opinion which reason never brought him to.

Have you met a Scottish nationalist kelvin - they're brilliant?

Paul Krugman has some interesting insights into Brexit. Summary: we won't be better off.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/brexit-paul-krugman-zero-chance-britain-better-off-eu-leave-single-market-custom-union-exports-trade-a7965871.html?amp ]'Zero Chance' leaving EU will leave Britons better off[/url]

"It’s essentially zero chance that it’ll be beneficial on the trade front,” Mr Krugman said.

“I don’t think there’s any plausible case that Brexit is a good thing for the British economy as a whole.”

I have....[i]issues[/i] with Krugman on some of his views on globalisation but I think he's correct on this pronouncement.

All nationalism is deeply unpleasant and dangerous Hurty. As we'll all have ample opportunity to witness at next weeks cordoned-off festival of embarrassingly xenophobic, small-minded, backwards-gazing, delusional flag-waving in Manchester

You are going to watch a Tory conference?? Bloody hell......

Know your enemy! 😉

I doubt coverage of the 'I'm more Brexit than you' competition will be easy to avoid

Best place to unfurl an EU flag surely.

“It’s not a huge cost ... but it is a cost,” he said.

Thank you Paul - perspective

What a national embarrassment this whole shambles is. What must the politicians across the continent think of it? The government is hopeless. Took them half the available negotiating time to come up with a half baked set of proposals that they can barely agree to back and that are nowhere near acceptable to the EU and then have the utter gall to say "the balls in your court now" to the EU negotiating team. Inept, delusional,sly, offensive, hypocritical, lying and dim. I have never seen anything like it in 40+years a political geek.

They are doing such damage to the UK. Damage from which we may never recover. Fracturing us as a nation so deeply and bitterly, and in the end its just a factional fight in the tory party driven by a handful of press barons.

I was rolling over between £600 - £1000 per month and putting it away in a savings account.

Median income of under-30s is about 18k, meaning 1300pcm take home if they don't bother wasting their time thinking about a pension. 500 quid on a shared rent (obviously varies by area) leaves them with the same 800 quid to save as you managed...if they spend the square root of **** all on such fripperies as food and bills. Entitled ****s the lot of them.

The hard work continued for about 12 months after I completed in order to get the house up to scratch...11 years later we sold up, we'd paid off nearly half the mortgage and seen a rise of 70k on the pile of crap..

So your comparison with now is from 04/05 how quaint. Now assume the houses you were looking at are 60k more expensive your income has shrunk and all your other costs have risen.

Not much difference, I earned less back then and the mortgage was 5x my salary...if I did the same again now (and I did, we moved in '15) the mortgage on our current place is still 5x my salary.

2 x median income = 36k = 23k tax free.

So 23k + 10k (After tax) = 33k or 2750 take home.

Excluding stupid property areas - it is possible to buy a house, my 23 year old son and his girlfriend have just done it.

More saving less moaning I think.

[quote=kelvin ]Anyway…
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtlGN8wVnis
Edit - Oh, that's the edited one, without the Dad"s Army style attacking of the UK and the NHS by migrants… the original long one seems to be MIA.

Wow - that really is utter BS anyway. How on earth did we let them get away with such shit?

wilburt - Member
Nope I'm not letting any goverments of the hook, the opposite. A significant proportion of the shortage in housing is due to migration.
People are effected by that because either they cant get a house or more houses are being built unnecessarily

The voices being foreign 'adds' to the intimadating aspect of 10+ youth/adult males standing around talking loudly, spitting and generally being ****.

It doesnt matter what your opinions are if there is a significant proportion of people who have a bad experience or are uncomfortable with migration levels you need to talk to them not ridicule them.

It was 17 million people who didn't want intimidating foreign speaking gangs dominating their towns.

17 million people are intimidated by foreign-speaking gangs? That's a whole load of intimidation!

the mortgage on our current place is still 5x my salary.

Having moved to a cheaper area and hopefully moved up to a better paid position.

The person doing the same job as you did near London with the same job as you did back then wouldn't be able to afford the house you bought back then.

Houses in the south east have become less affordable. You can either blame immigrants or:

Inadequate building of social housing by successive governments.
Builders sitting on land rather than building homes.
Greenbelt policy.
Insufficent incentives to encourage demolition of old property and replacement with denser more ecological buildings.
Draconian palnning restrictions.
NIMBYism

People who know the UK better can no doubt elaborate.

The EU has become weak, slow and inefficient

Who said that yesterday ?

Liam Fox?
Michael Gove?
Angela Rayner ?
Theresa May?
John McDonnel?

Tests are banned at the STW school.

Big Mac?

Your point being?

That people who support the EU want it to change and improve?

Your point being?

I'm in west London a 2 bed flat near where I live requires on a 25 year mortgage monthly payments of £2700. So, yes, quite affordable for a 23 year old as long as Mummy and Daddy put down a 50% deposit.

it is possible to buy a house, my 23 year old son and his girlfriend have just done it.

Possible but far more difficult is the point being made. If kids have to save up far harder for far longer, and the money just goes to line some baby boomer's pocket, is that fair?

Also - could your son have managed it if he'd been single?