[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

People can have whatever opinions they like (apart from the recently eliminated obviously)

It's up to them if they want to act on then too

Ministers have discussed the possibility of a transition deal with the EU of up to two years, a Cabinet source has told BBC News.
Prime Minister Theresa May is also expected to make an "open and generous" cash offer to the rest of the EU in a bid to unblock Brexit talks.
She will announce the details in a speech in Italy on Friday.

Why?

We know there needs to be a transition
We have committed to settling out obligations

Tories may be a mixed up bunch, but none of that is surprising

That isn't settling the obligations that's a bung before 2020, the settlement still needs to be agreed.
Given the swivel eyed loon side of the party who firmly believe that the EU should be paying the UK to leave etc. writing cheques will upset them greatly.

No, actually there needs to be no transition. You'll work it out eventually.

(alternatively, you can have your transition when I've got my unicorn)

I will leave that to those who are better qualified

I'd happily go with that, if only I'd seen some evidence, a soupcon of a plan, or had some prior confidence in the people that are doing it.

But we've got the Brexit Bulldog and an idiot from Eton and a plan that basically consists of some colours and a catchphrase.

I'm positively shitting myself with anticipation about how great it'll be once we've left it to the 'better qualified'.

I read as many of the parliamentary briefings on this topic as I can - the joys of commuting - and they tell me that there are plenty of experts with plenty on expertise working be advising on all aspects of Brexshit

You just have to step away from the obsessive focus on the Brexshiteers. Contrary to what many believe, they are not in real control

I wish I had your pollyanna-ish faith THM. Do you have any feeling for when the solution to the Irish problem will make its long-awaited appearance? With all these geniuses working on it, it surely can't be long now....

tick tock

and a plan that basically consists of some colours and a catchphrase.

today's winner.

It's gonna be fine guys, I found a hi-tech UK made product the world is begging for.

[img] [/img]

Quite easy to get on with it when you can.

A lot harder when you have no choice in the matter.

I read as many of the parliamentary briefings on this topic as I can - the joys of commuting - and they tell me that there are plenty of experts with plenty on expertise working be advising on all aspects of Brexshit

This relies on the muppets in charge actually listening to them, given their track record, I'm not holding out much hope.

Well I thought I was the biggest cynic re politicians on STW. I was obviously wrong (although this could be the anti Tory bias)

CPn - there is no simple solution, so I have no ST expectations. I merely note the reason why the EU make this a prerequisite for moving on. As subtle as a brick.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]there are plenty of experts with plenty on expertise working be advising on all aspects of Brexshit

Experts? We've had enough of them.

[quote=teamhurtmore ]I merely note the reason why the EU make this a prerequisite for moving on.

The reason you think. Maybe the EU realise that it's an issue which has to be solved in order for Brexit to happen and that it's utterly pointless wasting time discussing anything else if there isn't going to be a solution...

merely note the reason why the EU make this a prerequisite for moving on.

Maybe because the EU/Ireland consider the GFA to be of some importance unlike the Little Englander kippers who frankly don't care and want to go back the bad old days.

Not sure if has been said already but was not the biggest mistake of the government and Brexit to trigger article 50 and start the clock ticking without a plan agreed by both sides as to what was going to be the deal? It seems to be totally and utterly bonkers for them to start a ticking clock triggering a procedure "article 50" that seems to be 100% in the EU's favour. The simple fact that you cannot negotiate new trade deals in the transition but loose all the existing ones when exiting is a bit of a arm lock.

Were the people in charge actually thinking at all about how this might pan out?

I know they would be pressured to doing something about Brexit by those that support it but it seems it would have been better for the UK if the UK government had used it as a threat and obstructed EU working within the structures to get some kind of plan together before triggering it.

I suppose triggering Article 50 locked the UK into leaving but they could have been a bit more patient and not made a dogs dinner of the whole thing. Maybe the dogs dinner was inevitable.

was not the biggest mistake of the government and Brexit to trigger article 50 and start the clock ticking without a plan agreed by both sides as to what was going to be the deal?

Good job old Jezza was not in charge. He was in even more of a rush

They could always have worked out what they wanted, how they were going to negotiate and put in place the required resources (or made sure they actually had some) first though, rather than waiting until after A50. Maybe coming up with solutions to the little problems which were otherwise likely to block progress could have been a good idea too...

the EU refused to negotiate till it was triggered so the UK govt had little choice on this outcome.

Thats fine, but what was the UKs negotiating positioning going into the talks? Why is there still no single narrative from the UK.

Yes it would been impossible to get everything, but to get anything you want it helps to set out what it is you want, oh, and to make those wishes remotely tenable.

And certain obvious issues, such as NI should have been nailed down long before A50 was triggered.

But the UK could have refused to do other things to stop the eu working it would have been better than what is happening now.

But the UK could have refused to do other things to stop the eu working it would have been better than what is happening now.

Depending on what you mean , there are means where by the EU could expel a member and when that member already said they were going... It would have been even messier though.

Amusing number of brexies sputtering in anger on BBC HYS betrayed by May- (she's a secret remoaner saboteur !!)

Unbelievably they still believe the Tory brexies lie that we can just leave with no deal & British vigour & rigour (mortis?) will see us through.... .

20bn is just the downpayment too, will the gov ever admit to the final bill & continued liabilities ?

No wonder Jambs did a runner

Anyone read Barnier’s press release today? 😀

Longest cabinet meeting since the UK fell off the ERM.

20bn is just the downpayment too, will the gov ever admit to the final bill & continued liabilities ?

Interesting to see how they won't, surely it would have to be published in the annual budget? Whilst it may not be headlined by them, i am sure the press would seek the numbers out. Further freedom of information request, on what grounds would they be refused?

teamhurtmore - Member
Good job old Jezza was not in charge. He was in even more of a rush

POSTED 52 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Again, totally missing the point. It's not a party political issue that Brexit is a really, really shit idea and should be reversed. It's Cameron's fault for causing all this and both the Tories and Labour now being craven to an advisory vote that went the way it did through a combination of gullibility, crass stupidity, insularity, racism and ingratitude.

Henceforth I will never, ever vote for any party that endorses this madness.

No wonder Jambs did a runner

Eventually even the fanatics will have to face reality.

So i guess the question is what does she want, less than Norway and more than Canada.

As Norway isn't part of the Customs Union that could be an issue, basically creates a hard border in Ireland and also in Dover, basically screwing import/export death by red tape, breaches the GFA etc. Also doesn't want to be in the single market which again Norway is party to.

Just to keep the Kippers happy and ban immigrants, wonder what the plan is re pensioners in Spain et al?

I thought we were getting cake & unicorns?

Well done THM, when all else fails you can always fall back on "labour would be worse".

Well, so what? How is that a solution to anything?

When faced with a shit sandwich, do you just say "at least it's not got a dead rat in it too" and chow down?

mrmo, its more like she wants more benefits than both Norway and Canada, but less costs than either.

Given that Theresa May is utterly spineless, and that we're all effectively hostages to the bunfight at the top of the Tory party, I fully expect her statement tomorrow will be the same vague, vacuous sound-bite-heavy meaningless 'cake and eat it' drivel as all her previous contributions

I'm sure that I'll listen to/watch it while muttering "oh FFS?!". I imagine I won't be alone in that

Anyone heard anything from the Labour Party recently? Just out of interest? Have I missed anything?

Anyone heard anything from the Labour Party recently? Just out of interest? Have I missed anything?

WTF would they want to be associated with the shitshow that's Brexit?

Corbyn was canny enough to keep it ambiguous during the GE,

he'd be wise just to let the Tories face the consequences of the Brexiters lies.

thecaptain - Member
Well done THM, when all else fails you can always fall back on "labour would be worse".

Well, so what? How is that a solution to anything?

When faced with a shit sandwich, do you just say "at least it's not got a dead rat in it too" and chow down?

POSTED 20 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Precisely.

Cue another "you're just a bunch of cynical, naysaying wreckers" flounce with an exhortation to "get on with it".

<Yawns, checks watch..... yep, still going>

Tick, tock, tick, tock.

[img] [/img]

Oh look, here comes Boris with the big print guide to bomb disposal.

Farce, farce, farce.

I thought we were getting cake & unicorns?

Whoa, I go to NEC for the bike show and someone adds cake to the bung. That MK1 unicorn needs work Mike!

Again, totally missing the point. It's not a party political issue that Brexit is a really, really shit idea and should be reversed.

Tell that to the marines

It's Cameron's fault for causing all this and both the Tories and Labour now being craven to an advisory vote that went the way it did through a combination of gullibility, crass stupidity, insularity, racism and ingratitude.

It's always someone else's fault isnt it?? Moan, moan, moan

DD they had read 5k words of TMs speech - that's 1k more than Boris' nonsense (that took me three efforts) - and then "agree" 😉 I am surprised they are still not there.

Barniers hard tone was balanced by soft stuff form France and Belgium. It's nonsense to suggest that hey are not scared of brexshit too

Also great Swedish cartoon today which would make Jambas, ninfan and that other bloke happy. To late now that they have been silenced

@kimbers. What's wrong with cake? Not sure about unicorns, could they be used in a Tesco burger?

WTF would they want to be associated with the shitshow that's Brexit?

Who knows he may be the one executing brexshit. At least he is a genuine leaver unlike May

Also great Swedish cartoon today which would make Jambas, ninfan and that other bloke happy. To late now that they have been silenced

I don't understand. Jamby is posting on other threads, so he hasn't been 'silenced'.

What a curious thing to say.

THM. Have you seen anything at all so far in the 'negotiations' to suggest that the U.K. is going to be better off or at least the same after Brexit?

If the answer is 'yes', please state what it is.

Otherwise, why the **** should I be happy with this shambles?

"scared" 😯

Far too early to tell. My default position is that we will ALL be worse off. That hasn't changed. So I am not happy about that

Where I differ is (1) I have moved on from pretending it isn't going to happen and (2) I believe that the risks are manageable given a sensible approach. Both sides have too much too lose. In my specific field, it's all pretty clear in terms of scenarios and most players have well established contingency plans in place. So from that narrow and admittedly selfish perspective I am simply keen to - what's the expression - get on with it.

Jambas was understandibly pissed off by the constant abuse. Others have been silenced. Pretty poor

Jambas was understandibly pissed off by the constant abuse.

Nah he was just upset that he got called on his BS

Eg initially (pre vote) said that we sent EU 350m a week
Then post vote denied he'd ever said it, obviously simple task to show him his earlier post.
Then recently said we did send the EU 350m after all.

Everyone gets things wrong, no one like to admit mistakes but such barefaced BS is going to attract criticism, in many ways good example of the whole debate.

Edukator (sic) to help you out here's today's (real in this case) views from Belgium

" countries are pleading for a soft brexshit to save trade ....45% of exports from Zeebrugge were to U.K."

So it's SCARED, ok?

How was Jamba abused?

No, we just need to make it work

There is no way it can be made to work

there is no feasable solution to the NI border, we are losing massive amounts of trade and investment, its a simple clusterfart

As for the idea there are allthese people beavering away to make it work. Every position paper so far has been sheer nonsense. There are simply not the people with the required expertise ( according to the former civil service head and the former EU commisioner)- and there are no politically acceptable solutions.

Of course the tories want you to believe its allgoing swimminly when actually its a humiliation on a huge scale. Remember Davis with his "it will be the biggest row of the year" over him wanting trade talks before anything else - he backed down within hours of attending his first meeting.

This is the problem, Brexiters (&the press) sold Brexit on fantasy, the Tories too scared to disavow it have carried on.

Now they have to sell a compromise, they said they wouldn't have to make.

There is no way it can be made to work

Sounds like the defeatist rallying call of the passive

we are losing massive amounts of trade and investment,

No we are not. Stop making things up.

This is the problem, Brexiters (&the press) sold Brexit on fantasy, the Tories too scared to disavow it have carried on.

In contrast, we sold fear that was over egged* and didn't work. We failed to present a clear vision of why the status quo was best

Now they have to sell a compromise, they said they wouldn't have to make.

Now we have to take responsibility, accept the risks, manage them and ...... get on with dealing with it.

* some folk who don't understand economics even thought brexshit would lead to a recession with GDP falling 4%. It's far too easy to mislead those poor folk

Pigface - Member
How was Jamba abused?

POSTED 20 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

He was disagreed with when talking bollocks.

That's 'abuse' in the world of the diehard brexiteer.

It's also unpatriotic, don't you know.

Jambas was understandibly pissed off by the constant abuse.

A bit rich from the most condescending, mickey taking, provocative member in the whole wide STW world.

"SCARED", maybe a few people in the inport/export business but whole countries, no. Besides you still have to eat.

Odd that that came from a politician then?

Inconvenient truths and all that. Doesn't sound that they are keen on any boycotting type ideas....but who would be?

In contrast, we sold fear that was over egged

Go back and look at the start of this thread, many of the remain posts were all about the positives of being in the EU, travel, trade, cooperation etc etc

The people over egging the fear were the idiots ...Cameron - Osborne etc

Well there are intelligent remainers here kimbers obviously

I thought we were getting cake & unicorns?

you will, if only you would get behind it.

Doesn't sound that they are keen on any boycotting type ideas

You'fe misunderstood as you always do when you don't like ideas.

I'mm suggesting British people boycott anything even vaguely connected to Brexit. And more generally draw in spending and save for hard times which asa bonus may result in an economic downturn that will sabotage Brexit.

Your correct I don't like the idea. It's counter productive and irrational.

THM - Jamba became a caricature of himself and adopted progressively more extreme positions, I presume to wind folk up. Look at his position a year or so ago and you’ll see how it’s changed. Folk did get wound up and reacted.
Now in Jamba’s position would I have done any different? I don’t know. But it did become fairly predictable.
Calling the Guardian and Independent our as click bait while extolling the virtues of order/order for example was pretty silly.
At the end of the day though, he’s told me why he favours Brexit and I understand it - though I still think it’s a bit of a silly reason - but he’s entitled to be silly if he wants and it’s not racism.
And he seems a decent guy other than his silly views on Brexit - bit of a know it all but I’m in a glasshouse myself there. 😉

I see jamba has de-camped to the latest religion thread. That should fit his faith-based arguments.

teamhurtmore - Member
Your correct I don't like the idea. It's counter productive and irrational.

Well Tim Martin is recommending it so I can’t help but agree it’s irrational.

[quote=slowoldman ]I see jamba has de-camped to the latest religion thread. That should fit his faith-based arguments.

How is his truth quotient?

Jambas was understandibly pissed off by the constant abuse

Something you keep banging on about, and have failed to produce any evidence of every time you're asked. Citation required. Get on with it.

Jambafact, Jambafact, ad nauseam, he is hardly alone in posting misguided analysis on here but yet he was constantly harangued - if he became belligerent as result it is hardly a surprise. Anyway, good for him, there is a lot more to life than posting on here.

It's not "misguided analysis", it's "making shit up and repeating it even in the face of being corrected". Jambafact isn't abuse, it's a statement of the obvious, he is a fantasist. I've never worked out for sure if he's deliberately trying to mislead, trolling, or mentally ill- I started assuming it was the former, moved on to the middle when he stopped trying to be convincing, but gradually I suspected it's the latter and he can't help himself- so I stopped engaging with him mostly as I don't think it's helpful, for him or for anyone else.

But whatever the motivation he is essentially a vandal, like Chewkw.

THM the problem with a lot of the rhetoric as delivered by Tim Wetherspoon and many more stands no scrutiny- his call for WTO and zero import duty is simply down to his desire to lower his happy meal costs. When it was pointed out by Andrew Neil that it would destroy the supply chain he just mumbled something about we can stand 3 to 6 months.

On Jamba - I have said this before. While he posted some real deluded twaddle he is always polite and I think some of the responses he got went too far. Play the ball not the man

he is always polite

I'm not sure that vile falsehoods uttered in measured tones are much of an improvement on other modes of expression.

Well said mefty

NW - "vandal" claims are a far superior form of "making shit up" bravo

Oldman- it's very true that most of the Brexshit rhetoric does not stand up to scrutiny which makes our failing to counter it all the more galling. But the remoan BS is as bad if not worse - see ^ for loads of example. Extreme exaggeration, false facts and misguided attempts to pin any bad news on [s]the EU[/s] brexshit. And that's before all the "it was only advisory, it's not fair, we lost" waffle. An we thought you couldn't getting lower than the trash of the Indy debate for making stuff up...brexshit limbo, the new sport

Still off to Florence - leather pants, jazzy shoes and a heavy necklace?? Then "bespoke, transition, cash...and can we stop farting about and get on with the proper negotiations now." Keep the news hounds busy at least

Vile? Thats a classic example. Its only words if deluded and blinkered. Nowt vile unlike some other posters on both sides

Still off to Florence - leather pants, jazzy shoes and a heavy necklace?? Then "bespoke, transition, cash...and can we stop farting about and get on with the proper negotiations now." Keep the news hounds busy at least

True

Once merkel is back on the hot seat, the proper meetings can begin - the three Ms that actually matter

Merkel - May meeting already agreed

If we think our side has a tough job, imagine being the merkel or macron? Shit, were screwed if the UK walks away and we are screwed if we pander to their wishes. And that's before we sort out the bloody mess with the €. At least macron has an expanding domestic economy to keep the punters happy

This is the problem, Brexiters (&the press) sold Brexit on fantasy, the Tories too scared to disavow it have carried on

And for the small faction of the Tory who really wanted this extreme situation it is all going perfectly to plan. They convinced just enough people to vote leave. The talks are going terrible, they want us to crash out so that massive amounts of money can be made by a narrow band if we'll positioned people who can make a lot of money from the chaos. Plus after the chaos they will be able to rebuild the UK as a minimum government state that makes the us look socialist.

If we think our side has a tough job, imagine being the merkel or macron?

I thipught it was just the swivel-eyed brexiteer loons who suffered under the delusion that brexit was a significant issue to anyone much outside the UK

Now after being in Germany for a month I've had precisely two people raise the issue in conversation. One of them was wondering how much damage it would do to the UK's European research collaboration, and one was wondering how on earth we could make it work with all the joint bodies that we are supposedly pulling out of.

I wish I had an optimistic answer to either of them. Neither of them were remotely concerned about how it would affect them, it hadn't crossed their minds. A mixture of sadness and bemusement would be closer to the mark.

No it's sensible people too. Actually you don't even need to be sensible since it's stating the obvious

Vile?

Vile indeed. I refer you to the many Israel/Palestine threads for a wealth of examples,

Tory leaders and judgement.

Theresa “Maybot” May, last heard protesting in the national press that she wasn’t robotic, has chosen a city for her big speech that in large number of people’s minds is part of a band’s name.

“Florence and the May-chine” as tomorrow’s headline anyone?

The speech won’t be heard for the laughter.

Judgement.

“Florence and the May-chine” as tomorrow’s headline anyone?

I’m going to copy that and pretend I made it up 🙂

Hey I said that a few pages back!

There’s a rich seam to be mined guys. It’s friday so we can always keep it lighthearted.

“UK PM spends time at the OOF-izi”

Sounds like May's speech will be "it's not us it's you".

To which the EU's response will be "it's you that's leaving, it's you that triggered A50 with no plan, you sort it out".

Sad day for our country, now an item of ridicule for our neighbours and ex-friends, and in the wider world.

The damage we do - for nothing, there is no upside here - will not be forgotten, our kids will have to live with this for decades.

Such a waste.