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IGM - its just the deluded and dim Davies saying what he thinks his audience want to hear and reported on a europhobic tv channel
@matt Norway is a very interesting example. In a Referendum the people voted NO against Government advice to join the EEC. The Government didn't like that so signed the country up to the EEA and large budget contributions anyway. How very anti-democratic, how very EU
@matt Norway is a very interesting example. In a Referendum the people voted NO against Government advice to join the EEC. The Government didn't like that so signed the country up to the EEA and large budget contributions anyway. How very anti-democratic, how very EU
My Norwegian colleague tells me the reason they voted No was that they felt the EU was too rightwing and globalist.
teamhurtmore - Member
Yes IGM, it's a negotiation. Excuse me if I have mentioned this before.
Well to be fair you've also suggested it isn't 😉
And it's news to me that Davies thinks it's a negotiation 😉 😉
You decide 😉
Edit for x-post
When?
When you've said the EU don't negotiate for example.
I'm sure that was you.
Oh I see - yes fair point albeit a different nuance.
We ARE in a negotiation process BUT the EU are past masters in avoiding/delaying ACTUAL negotiation
So negotiating in name if not in substance 😉
Word play apart the subtle compromises are already evident apart from for those who remoan inflexible in their interpretation of events
When you've said the EU don't negotiate for example.
I've heard plenty of people say this - that Greek geezer for one - but also severla civil service types on LBC.
oldnpastitMy Norwegian colleague tells me the reason they voted No was that they felt the EU was too rightwing and globalist.
Was it not also to do with killing whales? The EU / global waling organisation wanted them to stop. I thought this was something the norwegians felt was unwarranted interference. They would not be allowed in the EU until they stopped killing whales
hypocrisy :
maybe the are ripe for frexit and grexit ?
By the way, anyone a Telegraph subscriber?
What's Boris actually said now?
TG - doubt it. Merely unsurprising.
BoJo today
He says: "And yes - once we have settled our accounts, we will take back control of roughly £350 million per week. It would be a fine thing as many of us have pointed out if a lot of that money went on the NHS, provided we use that cash injection to modernise and make the most of new technology...
Bold claim, given there wasn't £350m in the first place. Sounds like farmers subsidies ain't getting any of it then Boris.
Macron has no problem with protectionism and limiting FOM
Meanwhile our foreign secretary doing his best to undermine the negotiations & Mays position
TurnerGuy - Member
hypocrisy :maybe the are ripe for frexit and grexit
Yeah coz LePen tried that & failed (despite all that money from putin)
& Farages definitely not Nazi, buddies AFD (also supported by Putin on RT) have failed to deny Merkel's popularity.
Can't believe how desperate Brexies still are for the EU to fail!
Average tariff is 3% and many countries don't bother with vast swathes of the tariffs - they just use zero. Tariffs (in general) are highest on food to protect farmers in poor countries. We would be free to agree low tariffs with selected producers especially in products that we don't produce.
so if that ^
a decent portion of people I know working on "no deal" options are looking at closing or selling their European business as its not really worth continuing with. Others will just transfer bookings to existing offices
why that ^ ?
Jambas has got it wrong. The transfers he described may not be possible after Brexit. I have been working on this very topic over past two weeks.
Kimbers:outweighed by the number of remoaners who want the negotiations to fail. Brexshiteers have not control over whether the EU fails, but remoaners have a direct impact on the success of the process of Brexshit.
Kimbers:outweighed by the number of remoaners who want the negotiations to fail. Brexshiteers have not control over whether the EU fails, but remoaners have a direct impact on the success of the process of Brexshit.
You need to work out what success looks like first, current definition is best of a bad lot. What people who prefer remain want is for the UK to remain. It is still an option that is there and viable - I think we can mostly agree that it is a option people can keep fighting for.
As you are so fond of telling us though all the moaning achieves nothing so quite why your worried about it I'm not sure.
What people who prefer remain want is for the UK to remain
True. But there were not enough of them when it mattered were there. Inconvenient truths and all that
You keep fighting - from afar - the rest can keep getting on with preparing appropriately
Success is clear if challenging: a bespoke FTA than maximises access to the single market. The uncertainty is how compromises will be addressed behind that. The goal is very clear though. Unless you are a rabid or a remoaner
Success is clear if challenging: a bespoke FTA than maximises access to the single market
"maximises access" is anything but clear. Of course this is the point, you'll be able to sing the praises of Mummy May whatever bit of a mess she produces.
Clear as mud there, problem is that's not the only thing people seem to want and not what their priorities are - see Jamby's POV OUT OUT OUT and none of that stuff
See the close the borders lot
The out of ECHR etc.
Nothing to do with May she is just a politician.
But it's very clear what we want, just not how we get there.
Yes we ant lots of things such as avoiding legal chaos and losing successful EU legislation and protection etc. So what do remoaners do? Obstruct the means of delivering that - they are worse than Brexshiteers with their power grab and other BS
Jambas represents one end of the spectrum. He will be as disappointed as the remoaners. We will end up with a deal with compromises in both sides. There is too much for both sides to lose for this not to happen
Which of course means preparing for…?preparing appropriately
The most staunch remainers I know are the ones doing the most preparation… getting joint citizenship, opening subsidiaries in rEU, delaying investment decisions and ensuring action plans are ready for re/co-location. Why do you keep assuming that people vocally calling for us to remain in the EU as our best cause of action, or some form of EEA relationship as a national compromise, are not capable of preparing for the multiple possible outcomes of Brexit?
Yes we ant lots of things such as avoiding legal chaos and losing successful EU legislation and protection etc. So what do remoaners do? Obstruct the means of delivering that - they are worse than Brexshiteers
I'm intrigued to know how people are Obstructing the process of DD floundering around in Brussels? The government is doing it's utmost to exclude people, parliament or any form of interference in the process.
The most staunch remainers I know are the ones doing the most preparation
Indeed I am in that camp
Except I know that we are not remaining and have accepted that fact.
Remember: membership of versus access to.
Okay then replace "staunch remainers" with "consistently staunch remainers".
The people calling for the most appropriate actions by our government, while preparing for what they can see is actually happening instead.
People who would prefer to stay but can move on v people who can't accept democratic decisions and can't
Doers v moaners
Players v spectators
Active v passive
Leaders v followers
You decide....
Try making sense.
The people calling for the most appropriate actions by our government, while preparing for what they can see is actually happening instead.
In that camp too.
Gov needs to focus on how to minimise uncertainty and time involved. We have options prepared. Need to know when we press the buttons. Cmon May and co, get on with it....we are ready
Can I just add continued freedom of movement of labour to the success list. Just wouldn't want anyone to forget it in the confusion.
Happy to help.
For me yes - it would be there. Will it? Very doubtful. Even EU leaders hate it
Com May and co… self destruct once forced to make actual decisions about the form of our new relationship with rEU, get on with it…. who jumps first? Can't be Davies or May, my money is on Boris and Fox.
People who would prefer to stay but can move on v people who can't accept democratic decisions and can't
http://www.bbc.com/news/election/2017/results
56.7% of the population rejected May and the Tories at the last election. they didn't have confidence in her and would show that pushing on with a tory only Brexit is wholly undemocratic.
Try making sense 😉
You (iirc) correctly should be well aware of what happens when (devolved) gov can't accept decisions and get sidetracked from their day job and fail to deliver on their priorities
Mike are you the third member of the tag team. What did the other main party promise - ok with even less clarity admittedly. Inconvenient truths #2
What vote did the staunch leavers get? #3
The problem, dear THM, is that whether or not I agree with, or accept (or want to move on from the alternative to) what May and the three Brexmigos are after, they are apparently roundly useless and I wouldn't trust them to negotiate a drinking session in a brewery.
Of course to agree with or accept what they are after, they'd have to actually make clear what that thing might be.
If they want popular support for our negotiating position, then their secretive, controlling behaviour is highly counterproductive.
It's not about what was promised. It's about the best way to deal with the job in hand. The majority of the UK doesn't think the tories are the people to be doing that - simple enough for you? If you want to keep banging on about respecting democracy remember it can be applied in other places.
They are negotiating - you never lay your cards down first. We know we can't get exactly what we want - not enough trumps - it's just where and how to play the finesse.
Agree on competencies. Relieved by what is going on behind the scenes - to an extent.
We need to "get behind" whatever the aims and outcomes are?
Fine, ask us once you either have a clear aim and plan, or we have arrived or heading towards less a nebulous outcome.
Referendum?
igm - Member
Can I just add continued freedom of movement of labour to the success list. Just wouldn't want anyone to forget it in the confusion.
Happy to help.teamhurtmore - Member
For me yes - it would be there. Will it? Very doubtful. Even EU leaders hate it
Ahh. Fair point. But devilment on an internet chat room is fun.
And it's not like I suggested all road bikes should have disc brakes now is it?
PS - already knew your view on that one. I think we've both been pretty clear and consistent on that one. It's good for jobs, good for the economy and probably good for net earnings even for the poorest - though the last one is a more difficult calculation.
That "May" be the case mike but #4 not enough people voted for an alternative did they?
No that is the strange way it works some times where the votes don't deliver all the outcomes. It can't be denied though that the majority of the UK doesn't support the tory party at this time. Ultimately it's why the UK parliament should at least have some further input to the negotiations and a say on the final outcome - that's what most people would call democratic.
If the whole thing starts to fall apart and the EU side can't agree would having a pause button not be prudent?
They are negotiating - you never lay your cards down first.
Disagree. Sometimes that is an excellent negotiating strategy.
But I will agree you need strong cards.
Unfortunately everyone knows both these factoids, so the fact that we haven't laid our cards down exposes our belief that we have a weak position, the only remaining question is how weak.
Brinksmanship means this isn't possible, apparantly. Or perhaps a "no deal" exit would never get through parliament, and that is the reason why it's to be purely a minister's decision to jump off that cliff.If the whole thing starts to fall apart and the EU side can't agree would having a pause button not be prudent?
It's nothing to do with "laying cards on the table", they haven't actually stated their goals in any plausible and concrete form. Just to take one minor example, what is the plan to replace euratom's functions? How long will this take and when will it start?
Or perhaps a "no deal" exit would never get through parliament, and that is the reason why it's to be purely a minister's decision to jump off that cliff.
Sounds about right.
Euratom : UK government has asked for all current contracts signed under Euratom, which are mostly long term, to continue and be overseen by Euratom, even though one party (on our side) is in a country that isn't a Euratom member (or even in a new parallel organisation promising equivalence). Ie, not be a member, but continue to be treated as a member until contracts replaced or expire. Not only that, but it has asked the EU to come up with a legal and practical framework to make this happen. No plan to facilitate this cake and eat it approach put forward by our side, obviously.
Kelvin - are you David Davies?
With plans like that it's hard to see why people have a massive lack of confidence in whats going on.
No that is the strange way it works some times where the votes don't deliver all the outcomes.
Indeed
It can't be denied though that the majority of the UK doesn't support the tory party at this time.
Whois denying that? Equally that doesn't mean they stop governing.
Ultimately it's why the UK parliament should at least have some further input to the negotiations and a say on the final outcome - that's what most people would call democratic.
They will - #5 another compromise delivered
If the whole thing starts to fall apart and the EU side can't agree would having a pause button not be prudent?
What #6 some form of transition ?
Transition requires an agreement. So does any kind of "pause button", including staying in the EU or any of the other European bodies. I think his point is, if talks breaks down, parliament should have a say about choosing to press ahead without an exit deal, or go back to our partners with new proposals.
No it doesn't
What doesn't?
What you claim
Are you suggesting a unilaterally imposed transition period?
thm's just gone off the deep end. software malfunction?
Junker said last week Brexit was "in the past" and a "trade deal would be done"
I can't say I agree that it's "in the past" as there are many details to be agreed or not. You do have to admire his ability to avoid any remotely difficult questions about budget and economic imoact though. Ditto the Germans not a single question on Brexit at the election devate despite the massive implications for Germany and the next Chancellor.
As for a deal, yes there will be one including the WTO option which can of course be a bespoke WTO eg with cars and auto components being zero tariff
Brexit hardly got discussed during our own election debates… well those with May anyway.
Of course brexit's a minor issue to the rest of the EU. Why should it be otherwise? I've been in Germany for the past month and literally no-one has even mentioned it, except when we brought it up as a possible fly in the ointment as regards joint funding applications and collaboration.
Of course brexit's a minor issue to the rest of the EU. Why should it be otherwise?
Because the UK is the centre of the known universe, it is the heart of europe blah blah blah.
There is only one thing worse than being talked about, not being talked about.
Yup, when we say Brexit will hurt the EU, we mostly mean Ireland, and to a lesser degree France and the med counties, don't we? Germany has opportunities aplenty as we tie our own companies up in knots... yes, they may have to increase their contributions to the EU by something like 0.01% of their GDP, but that's chicken feed given their genuine export growth.
. You do have to admire his ability to avoid any remotely difficult questions about budget and economic imoact though.
he normally cries off sick with something like sciatica if the questions get difficult, doesn't he ?
Given the current Ryan air shambles
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/anyone-booked-ryanair
I wonder how much pressure the airlines will be putting on the UK not to bring the EU compensation rules into UK law....
Well according the Michael Ryan there won't be any flights at all to the EU post Brexit, no one was a bigger Remainer than he. If he thought he could save sixpence he'd have campaigned for Leave
Kelvin Brexit is bad for all 27 Germany inckuded and probably especially
Kelvin Brexit is bad for all 27 Germany inckuded and probably especially
But good for the UK? As Brexit hasn't actually been defined there the impact on the EU is harder to measure, a worse deal for the UK could see better numbers for the EU, their status as having good trade deals with the ROW will help them.
Scientific research will not not have to be shared with the UK so an Brain Influx back to the EU.
The UK will end up paying for some kind of access - nobody really cares that you or the UKIP end of the tories hate the idea business needs it - that should help the coffers of the EU nicely and not having the UK to veto stuff will be a wonderful way to speed up negotiations.
Well according the Michael Ryan there won't be any flights at all to the EU post Brexit, no one was a bigger Remainer than he. If he thought he could save sixpence he'd have campaigned for Leave
As Ryanair are an Irish company they can continue running the EU flights, just lose the UK to EU parts. Ask yourself why Easyjet are opening a new office is Austria to ensure they are an EU company.
Kelvin Brexit is bad for all 27 Germany inckuded and probably especially
But good for the UK?
Yes jambalaya, please explain.
They need us more than we need them! Which is why no-one over here is even mentioning it - they are obviously too scared to bring it up and in total denial about how it's going to destroy their economy while HMS Brittania sails off into the sunlit uplands.
They need us more than we need them!
What a quaint perspective.
I've yet to see any hard evidence for this category of assertion. This sort of belief largely seems to be a statement of nostalgic national pride/arrogance, rather than bearing any reference to international finance and policy.
Letter to Boris re. that £350m.
[img] 
?itok=81HDCT-S[/img]
@mrmo if RyanAir could not fly to/from UK to EU the company would go bust. Anyway Ryan as always was just going for the free headline. / publicity. I was speaking of his UK to/from EU flights statement not about inter EU flights
Outside the EU we will have absolute flexibility to focus our trade policy where we wish. Without any shadow of a doubt import and export business with the EU will go down even with a free trade deal as we will have other free trade deals which will cut inti EU business
Very mischievous of Boris ahead of TM's important speech on Friday but absolutely correct to out the NHS / £ 350m back on the front page. Strong ground for Leave and he is totally correct that we can make that sort of aspirational plan. As I said before no EU budget contributions and WTO tariffs with EU gives is far more than £350m pw to play with even including keeping all existing "EU" spending in the UK
Last post from me me for a few months having further reflected on abusive stuff posted here over past few weeks (since deleted but no bans afaik). Also bans handed out to some other STWers smack of double standards so this is not a place for me
With all the bounteous milk and honey we'll certainly need to beef up NHS spending on obesity-related diseases.
WTO tariffs with EU
Ummm, these are taxes we would be putting on imports from the EU?
Which us UK consumers would be paying?
i.e. a stealth tax!
Last post from me me for a few months having further reflected on abusive stuff posted here over past few weeks (since deleted but no bans afaik). Also bans handed out to some other STWers smack of double standards so this is not a place for me
🙁
Shame Jamba but understandable. You argue courteously if from a rather odd viewpoint. the least others could do is return the favour and be courteous
[quote=jambalaya ]Very mischievous of Boris ahead of TM's important speech on Friday but absolutely correct to out the NHS / £ 350m back on the front page.
It's a shame lying isn't such a successful tactic on here.
You can post order-order links, grossly inaccurate stats, misreprestations of reality, blatant lies, xenophobia.. as politely as you like and it still is anything but courteous. It's an insult to people's inteligence, an insult to their humanist values, an insult to their integrity. I find Jamba's contributions to this thread increasingly insulting. That's just the way it is Jambalya, you and people like you are the enemies are of values I hold dear.
As I said before no EU budget contributions and WTO tariffs with EU gives is far more than £350m pw to play with even including keeping all existing "EU" spending in the UK
really? it's odd then that leave haven't increased that number even further?
still, i imagine, as you've received abuse ( i'm on here a lot more than i should be and i've certainly not seen anything that could be construed as abuse directed at you personally 'in the last few weeks' ), you won't be answering this with any data of any value. like pretty much anything else you post that you then get challenged on, even if you were continuing to post, you'd just ignore the question. again.
toodle pip.
I disagree Edukator - you can point out the ridiculous fallacies in his argument without resorting to personal attacks
Quality flounce Jamba. Just use your other log in when you feel the need to post on the forum.
+1 edukator.