[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

lso zero hours contracts MUCH easier to enforce when you have unlimited cheap and willing labour from the EU

cite?

Woods and trees.....

ZHC < 3% of UK employment
Suits some of those on ZHCs
Why all the fuss?

Don't sweat(shop) the small stuff
We will be complaining about foreign workers next?

Like Comrade Jammers, Citizen (Iain Duncan) Smith was extolling his new found regard for the wage rates and working conditions of the poor indiginous UK working Classes this morning.

It was really, really convincing. Not once did he mention forced labour or workhouses

[img] [/img]

As pointless as it is pointing out to you when you're lying...

As for Turkey I don't recall anyone saying they would join "next year or even soon". Leave just pointed out they where in negotiations to join.

[img] ?itok=YiT8Ci6P[/img]

[img] [/img]

Jamba do you have any idea what a free trade deal with NZ and Oz will do to British agriculture?

"Dem NZ sheep's is proper cheap"

Oh and beef and cereals...

But not to worry the Tories will pay them £1000 @ yard (metre) for planting hedges

Even more convincing as IDS's hand-wringing over the poor working classes is Goves new-found eco-warrior credentials. It's nice to see him seeing farmers as stewards of our green and pleasant land. I suspect he's presently working hard to put a stop to fracking and reinstate onshore wind farms.

While growing his dreads and buying tie-dye clothing

[quote=jambalaya ]@Boarding it's a non-binding nothing vote.

Nothing more than a polling of opinion you might say, which wiser heads should be free to ignore?

As for Turkey I don't recall anyone saying they would join "next year or even soon". Leave just pointed out they where in negotiations to join.

[img] [/img]

The EU and Australia already have an agreement, Jamba, the 2008 EU-Australian Partnership Framework. So that's £10 to Amnesty International please.

Did you stop to think before posting that Ed?

Be careful when you google...she can be a fickle friend

zero hours contracts need to be dealt with

Understood properly?

binners - Member

Like Comrade Jammers, Citizen (Iain Duncan) Smith was extolling his new found regard for the wage rates and working conditions of the poor indiginous UK working Classes this morning.

Are you against raising the minimum wage to £9 binners?
That is what Smith is celebrating in the picture isn't it?
How much do you earn binners?

💡

Are you against raising the minimum wage to £9 binners?
That is what Smith is celebrating in the picture isn't it?

That same budget he's celebrating cut £12bn from the welfare budget, mostly via tax credits

Example at the time was that single mum with 2 kids would lose twice as much as she'd get from the minimum wage rise.

Not long later he resigned with a legacy of benefit sanctions piling misery on the poorest, the bedroom tax and his crowning achievement Universal Credit- I know someone called in to troubleshoot the IT, project, he quit as the targets set by IDS office combined with the contacts negotiated with the IT suppliers made it impossible to make it work.

http://www.computerweekly.com/news/4500248772/Universal-Credit-costs-leap-by-more-than-20-to-158bn

It's already late, currently the government reckon it will be another 5 years before it's rolled out, but every year that estimate gets put out further.

Those working on it have admitted it could be decades before it's set up properly.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-38905930

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41226942
Memorials to those killed by benefit reforms

http://calumslist.org

It's already cost over a billion and who knows what the final bill will be.

IDS has to be ranked as one of the most incompetent ministers in a generation.
That he then had the front to campaign for Brexit is amazing, considering that the backlash against the Government that helped the leave vote was fueled by his own disastrous tenure, that he didn't even have the courage to try and see through.

I don't like IDS, he's a clueless dick

European Commission site, THM. As you're a Google fan, copy into the search box.

I don't like IDS

Neither do I, but that wasn't what my post was about.
binners has a habit of using pictures out of context, to suit his agenda.
[i]Quite a lot like[/i] Farage with the very Nazi propaganda inspired poster binners then went on to post.

Has anyone seen binners and Farage in the same room...? 🙂

I am well aware of the source of your mis-information and false claim for £10 Ed

My question still stands.........did you?

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/09/12/london-sewer-found-clogged-dreams-young/amp/

The Indy is even funnier kimbers. Under headlines about thousands backing a secondary ref vote they forget to some basic maths

7000 as a %age of 17,400,000ish is..... quality journalism

jambalaya - Member

Who will bet me that UK signs a free trade deal with Australia and NZ before he EU, £10 any takers ?

I'll take you up on that but not for money - for a nice forfeit. I'll post a pic of me in a union jack hat and IDS teeshirt or similar right wing apparal

YOu have to post one in a suitable leftie outfit - perhaps a nice lenin t shirt hugging a picture of castro 🙂

🙂 that's a quality idea

@kimbers my point is is much easier to enforce zero hours contracts on your workers if there is an effectively unlimited supply of cheap (and desperate) labour on your doorstep. Sports Direct is a perfect example.

Turkey is joining the EU, well certainly was prior to Erdogan's latest crackdown, they had ongoing negotiations a "check list" to meet, fast track visa / freedom to travel and they where getting EU financial aid to help them on their way. The only real question was when. Junker hasn't said never, he's just thrown out some cheap words which will be water off a ducks back to Erdogan. Meanwhile Europe pays €9bn for Turkey to police it's border with the Europe

Junker's speech was a peach, the responce to Brexit and widespread critism of the EU is of course [b]much more union[/b]. Giving up your currency traps you inside the EU, opponents of Le Pen had good reason to point out that leaving the euro would (certainly could IMO if not handled properly) bankrupt French banks. Hence Junker is very keen everyone should join - get people locked in with no route to escape. One super powerful President, the whole EU Army project accelerated and banking union (ie no control over your own banks - obviously a good idea with some nations but paves the way for collective responsibility for sovereign debt accross fhe EU.

The thought of people working together for a better world doesn't appeal?

Considering how insanely expensive a military is to run ( just look at our empty aircraft carriers, underequipped army, I've stood on the empty cruise missile bay in A T45 destroyer, it was a gym as we can't afford the launchers or the missiles) euro army would be great, share the cost of trident etc

A Europe wide FBI is long overdue, remarkably, we are threatening to use security cooperation as a Brexit bargaining chip !?!

Junker's speech was a peach

It's certainly trolled the shit out of you 😆

Nige is spot on here. IF the EU tries what Junker is proposing the anti EU "populist" wave will only have just begun

That's the populist anti-eu wave that Wilders and LePen promised us? 😆

Oh and AfD are going to sweep Germany too yes?

Comedy gold jamba 😆 Keep going - you're on a roll today. When is Turkey joining again?

The thought of people working together for a better world doesn't appeal?

I am most definitely good with that. A reformed UN would be a good place to start. Also no EU involvement just the sovereign member states. IMO the EU has F-ed up pretty much everything it has got it's hands on making "it's world" a worse place.

The thought of people working together for a better world doesn't appeal?

as part of that EU superstate you keep denying is on the cards??

An EU army is a big mistake - conflicts with Nato and Russia is not going to be happy that a major new army will be on its doorstep - one that the actions of cannot be vetoed by any EU member state.

[img] [/img]

Yes, I'm sure Russia would rather not have a major army of any kind "on its doorstep."
In fact, European states cooperating in anything is hardly welcomed by Russia.

Nige is spot on here. IF the EU tries what Junker is proposing the anti EU "populist" wave will only have just begun

The EU HAS to do what Junker is suggesting otherwise it will fail. Monetary Union and a common currency require fiscal and political union otherwise it doesn't work. So he is spot on. The deceit of Europe has been to pretend this in not required with the obvious and well-documented negative results.

Don't forget we were/are not members of the EZone - we were observers of the above and had NO financial responsibilities towards EZ financial liabilities. That was a Brexshit lie

THM - honestly, honesty and reason! You do know telling the truth is never going to work.
On the other hand +1

Don't worry the remoaner tag team will be back to batlle it out with Jambas soon

Just a temporary pause

making "it's world" a worse place.

You what?

IMO the EU has F-ed up pretty much everything it has got it's hands on making "it's world" a worse place

When EU member states work alone there are problems - see the refugee crisis caused by the Arab Spring and pick and choose involvement from countries. It was a time for the EU to work together not run apart

Ideally greater intervention yes but without the €

If only we had that - errr 😉

So Junker makes a speech yesterday outlining his plans for the future of the EU which include a new EU president of both commission and parliament, a new finance minister with increased powers over national governments, all member states will have to adopt the euro, an increase in the Schengen area and a fully functioning EU army by 2025. All this to be achieved without any new treaties and by qualified majority voting further distancing itself from any sort of democratic mandate from the people of the EU.

Despite how you all voted in the EU referendum last year there is no way on gods earth that the majority of British people would accept this. Junker has just put a dagger through the heart of any attempts at a second EU referendum or membership via the back door. Junker is a Brexiter and good for him.

I actually quite like the idea of a single European state in principle.
The practice might be difficult to work out, but as a Scot I've grown up understanding the benefits of restricting patriotism to sports fields.
Good luck to them. I wish them well.

The practice might be difficult to work out, but as a Scot I've grown up understanding the benefits of restricting patriotism to sports fields.

Interesting. The Scots have been a nation as part of a wider state for a long time, they've had time to get used to it. Possibly reflected in the EU vote. Seems the English are the Jingoistic ones. I reckon the Welsh vote was an anomaly in that score though - possibly something to do with the number of farmers, and probably concerns about tariffs on foreign steel or heavy industry.

Moly - I wouldn't say I spoke for all Scots.
45% of them reckoned they could do without the UK - although there was some sleight of hand over swapping Westminster for Brussels in that so the 45% isn't reliable.

So Junker makes a speech yesterday outlining his plans for the future of the EU

So will he be able to get what he wants without opposition?

igm - Member
I actually quite like the idea of a single European state in principle.

works for america !

Also China, Russia, Germany, Spain...

All this to be achieved without any new treaties and by qualified majority voting further distancing itself from any sort of democratic mandate from the people of the EU.

Of course it wont happen, it has to be approved by every member state & scrutinised by the European parliament, senior EU officials have also said it would require a treaty change

http://www.politico.eu/article/jean-claude-juncker-donald-tusk-commission-european-council-one-president-proposal-draws-few-cheers/

kent - it all sounds very much like Vote Leave using the Turkey lies

I actually quite like the idea of a single European state in principle.

I'd live with it. After all, what's Farage's hallowed "nation state" ever done for the 99%? Apart from, of course, leave our dismembered body parts distributed across battlefields.

Never again, eh?

Time to move on I think.

can someone explain something to me as I am a politics noob.

Why does Nigel Farage represent the UK in the EU parliament?

Why does Nigel Farage represent the UK in the EU parliament?

He doesn't.

He is one of 10 MEPs that represent South East England, and one of 73 from the UK. He has no primacy over the others.

MEP elections are done on a proportional representation system.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/your-meps/uk_meps.html

He is one of 10 MEPs that represent South East England, and one of 73 from the UK. He has no primacy over the others.

Apart from the fact that he is a co-chair of one of the European Parliamentary Groupings, which means he is called to speak in that capacity.

works for america !

or does it ?

broadly, yes it does.

So will he be able to get what he wants without opposition?

There will be opposition but history has demonstrated nothing will get in the way to the drive for more Europe see the constitution rebadged as the Lisbon treaty, the Irish referendum and more recently the Dutch referendum on visa free travel from Ukraine etc, all ignored.

Dennis Skinner called this right: "I will vote Leave because the EU will fail" ultimately the EU will fail not because of economic reasons see rampant youth unemployment, not because of the insistence that countries take uneconomic migrants from vastly different cultures with poor educational standards, not because the Germans will never agree to fiscal transfers (although the euro has been largely beneficial to the Germans in keeping their currency in check ergo their manufacturing competitive), not because the open borders have vastly increased the risk of terrorist atrocities but because the European citizens do not want it to become a federal superstate. It may not happen yet but it is inevitable.

because the European citizens do not want it to become a federal superstate

It won't happen if the citizens really don't want it.

It won't happen if the citizens really don't want it.

History suggests otherwise.

I have nothing useful to say but do wonder:

if this thread gets to 1000 pages, will the internet break?

Dennis Skinner called this right: "I will vote Leave because the EU will fail"

I find this the oddest statement.

We're human beings, give it a long enough view (not that long!) and all is temporary, everything fails, and we're all dead soon enough.

But is it the right direction to be travelling in? (yes!) Is it better than what came before? (yes!)

We should get off the bus because one day the bus will be obsolete?

It may not happen yet but it is inevitable.

when next year?
10 years
100 years?

thats a ludicrous position to take, weve heard many times that the EU is about to disintegrate at any minute-
confident predictions of the brexit domino effect where populist movements will cause its downfall, wilders lepenn,etc & whever else putin is funneling cash too

maybe there will be a huge surprise in the german elections and Merkel will be replaced with farages (definitely not nazi) mates....... or maybe not

The EU wil outlast Dennis Skinner or Farage for that matter

yes kimbers, that's bizarre too.

makecoldplayhistory - Member

I have nothing useful to say but do wonder:

if this thread gets to 1000 pages, will the internet break?

I think this thread is highly compressible....

works for america !

After a Civil War

History suggests otherwise.

What @mefty says. French vote againat an EU Constitution in a Referendum and we all get one via the back door in the Lisbon Treaty

Much Brexit blogging today about how Junker has made it cyrstal clear the vision for Europe is a Superstate

@kimbers well the two options are an EU Superstate or Disintegration. I don't want to be involved in either

I think this thread is highly compressible....

🙂

As for 1000 pages this is the second EU thread, I started one immediately after the 2015 GE looking forward to the promised referendum.

After a Civil War

Followed by abolition of slavery, 150 years of peace within the borders and a rise to world dominance.

Jamba you are plainly an intelligent man, which leads me to believe you don't really believe much of what you write. Perhaps Brexit suits your personal circumstances (you're less exposed than many it seems so have leeway to indulge it) and you're just seeing how far the misinformed and mistaken will follow you.

when next year?
10 years
100 years?

thats a ludicrous position to take, weve heard many times that the EU is about to disintegrate at any minute-
confident predictions of the brexit domino effect where populist movements will cause its downfall, wilders lepenn,etc & whever else putin is funneling cash too

maybe there will be a huge surprise in the german elections and Merkel will be replaced with farages (definitely not nazi) mates....... or maybe not

The EU wil outlast Dennis Skinner or Farage for that matter

Everything that Juncker said in his speech yesterday was everything that the remain side said during the ref campaign would not happen, Nick Clegg even went as far as to say to Farage the idea of an EU Army was a "Dangerous Fantasy". Well it is not they will try and push this through against the will of the European people.

Le Pen and Wilders I didn't bet on them for good reasons, I did bet on Brexit and Trump and won a substantial amount of money (easy to call when you read between the lines) I'd bet on the EU failing in the next ten years.

kent, how do you define fail?

Junker has made it cyrstal clear the vision for Europe is a Superstate

[i]in his opinion/his vision[/i]

you of all people should understand people voicing their opinions?

(& for that matter how do you know what is the will of the 'European people'?)

I reckon Jam is simply disingenuous. He is anti-EU on a basic personal level, and then unconsciously he selectively views everything through that filter. He sees what he wants to see. As do most of us, to be fair, but he seems particularly bad at it 🙂

kent, how do you define fail?

It will collapse much like the Soviet Union did.

I actually quite like the idea of a single European state in principle.

It will collapse much like the Soviet Union did.

And in the same way the majority will be shafted and a few will gain huge sums of wealth. Now you see why those who support Brexit are so keen to seen the EU fail. It is a sure fire way of making money at the expense of the majority.

Dennis Skinner called this right: "I will vote Leave because the EU will fail"

How's that eurogeddon fund coming along?

He is anti-EU on a basic personal level

As are most of the leave voters who were not fooled by the BS or want foreigners out at any cost. Nobody would be leaving for the greater good of the average person.

It is why even after so many pages nothing has been gained on this thread. Some people simply don't care about others and any amount of discussion won't make them. Would have made it quicker if they just said that at the start though...

I think that if the EU fails, it will sadly be due to rampant nationalism.

And in the same way the majority will be shafted and a few will gain huge sums of wealth. Now you see why those who support Brexit are so keen to seen the EU fail. It is a sure fire way of making money at the expense of the majority.

Maybe, from my personal point of view I'd rather it would not collapse in chaos as that will be a disaster for normal people. I'd much rather we all agreed that the way in which it is headed cannot be allowed to continue and it reverts back to a trading and cooperation arrangement. The die is cast unfortunately it will be federal Europe or nothing, chaos it will be.

And in the same way the majority will be shafted and a few will gain huge sums of wealth.

So far we've had all leave voters are:
Stupid
Racist
Xenophobic
Selfish

Who's gonna break out the big guns and drop the P-bomb on all leavers? 😆

It is amusing that we have so quickly gone from the idea of an EU superstate being the product of fervent paranoia, to welcoming it with open arms.
It's much the same as the argument about individual member states not being controlled by Brussels, until they do interfere. Then it's for the best anyway. 🙂

So far we've had all leave voters are:
Stupid
Racist
Xenophobic
Selfish

yep - it looks like the a lot of people on here as as stupid and intolerant as the groups they are trying to put the leave voters into...

Stupid
Racist
Xenophobic
Selfish

Add serial liar, closet Brexiter and plain ignorant and you cover profiles of leavers on this thread. (add a smiley if you wish, that's another thing leavers do when they come out with offensive stuff in the above categories). This one 😀 ?

You really are a horrid person.

The die is cast unfortunately it will be federal Europe or nothing, chaos it will be.

Don't be silly.

It will evolve, it has to. Leavers are always stating that the big powerful countries are moulding it to what they want. Well, if it diverges from what their people can support, they will change it.