You think it's not true?
I know its not true - all aspiring to be 'haves' one way or the other.
Won't cause me a moments 'pain'.
?Ah, not just a promise, but a cast iron promise now
What is your interpretation of that bus with those words on the side?
They obviously thought it important enough to headline the campaign with. Is it not important now? Are you telling us it's not going to happen?
I'm losing sight of which way around the denial works.
@cchris2lou - I love the bus, I've gone on record here pointing out that it was a genius idea, as it kept the remain campaign constantly arguing and repeating the message over and over again that the UK sent too much money to the EU, the exact figure was irrelevant to most
Edit: What is your interpretation of that bus with those words on the side?
I've said it before on here, the deliberate application of an officially published government figure of the gross amount of UK payments to the EU, without the supporting caveats that some thought were necessary because they realised just how bloody damaging it was to their case, and thus regretted ever publishing in the first place.
It wasn't a lie, it was just an official figure applied in a creative and ingenious matter that successfully highlighted the argument over just how much money we actually did hand to the EU every year.
Genius
Unless they were foolish enough to write it on an Edstone or a Bus
Similarly Cameron's cast iron guarantee to hold a referendum to try and fend off Europhobes didn't pan out so well for our greatest Prime Ministerial looser
so answer the question , are the Leavers going to spend an extra £350m a week on the NHS , Yes or No ?
love the bus, I've gone on record here pointing out that it was a genius idea, as it kept the remain campaign constantly arguing and repeating the message over and over again that the UK sent too much money to the EU, the exact figure was irrelevant to most
It's okay to be inaccurate or lie then just to make a point? It's okay to mislead the electorate?
The implications of that are astonishing.
I think Ninfan would say its doesn't matter it was just a means to an end.
It's okay to be inaccurate or lie then just to make a point?
As I pointed out, it wasn't inaccurate or a lie, it was the officially published gross figure for How much money we gave the EU, it just wasn't pointed out with the accompanying caveats that some thought were necessary.
It's okay to mislead the electorate?
Tell me a politician that doesn't?
Given that the entirety of the UK's entry into the EU project was, arguably, under the misdirection that we were joining a purely economic based free trade agreement rather than a political project towards ever closer union, then I'd say those who live in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones.
I think Ninfan would say its doesn't matter it was just a means to an end.
Nope, I'd say that both sides were as bad as each other - and that you wouldn't have been complaining about any of the more spurious claims made by remain if you had won.
Ninfan you are missing the point
Cleggs tuition fees pledge was a genius idea too it helped the limps cash in on the student vote, and get them into power for the first time in a generation.
Ultimately it destroyed cleggs reputation and is a millstone for the party.
When Brexit fails to bring extra money for the NHS, gives us Jambys 10 years of less money infact.... Well the Brexies will have to face that music
cchris2lou - Member
so answer the question , are the Leavers going to spend an extra £350m a week on the NHS , Yes or No ?
Yes, once we have stopped paying into EU system.
At the moment we are still paying so EU better be quick to grab whatever they can from UK because once we stop paying into EU the bureaucrats will just have to tax the EU nations more ...
Really? Where did you hear that.
wrong log in . try again .
slowoldman - Member
Really? Where did you hear that.
Yes, that is the case once we stop paying into EU.
Why do you think otherwise?
Yes, that is the case once we stop paying into EU.
We won't stop paying into Europe or the EU, ERASMUS, ESA,ITER, European Patent Office, Customs Union, Single Market,Horizon 2020. (Or are you suggesting we become North Korea and shoot of all ties to the world?)
You were lied to chewk all these things are worth paying into
Just like you thought Trump would drain the swamp of Goldman Sachs....
Kimbers has a point Chewkw. You were conned, hoodwinked, played for a fool, and if your background is anything like you suggest (you already know I doubt that) then you're the kind of person who will end up paying.
edit CBA
Well the Brexies will have to face that music
No they won't, they can each say that Leave wasn't a party, there was not a manifesto, there were no policies, no promises, nothing to take the blame for. Genius really, they could say anything and never be held to account for those things at the ballet box ever again. They can sit back and watch the civil service stuggling on trying to implement policies that have never appeared in a manifesto, with no direction other than 'not in the EU'. All suggestions and hints at what that might mean have already blown away in the wind… they'll be forgotton by 2020… ancient history… they'll be far more pressing concerns by then. Of course, you can't talk about those concerns yet… without 'project fear' and 'talking down' being thrown about. Just get on with it.
no direction other than 'not in the EU'
What more direction do you need?
What more direction do you need?
Run away!!
We've had the IMF, OECD, Osbourne, Cameron (and Niall Ferguson) all eat humble pie .. I wonder what it will take for the Remainers here to realise what a good decision a Leave vote was ?
Some actual positive benefits?
Some way to give us back the freedom of movement that we lost?
You seem to forget that some of us really liked the ability to travel and work freely in the EU. You've taken that from us.
You really really don't get this at all, Jam. I believe in the concept of European cooperation. You cannot possibly convince me that taking Britain out of it is a good idea. We need a supranational organisation to do what short termist national governments will not do. You really think the UK government is going to commit to environmental legislation now?
You have no alternative to what the EU gave us.
I would think the 2020 GE will be all about the plan post Brexit, what global trade deals are we going after and if course immigration and visa policies.
You seem to forget that some of us really liked the ability to travel and work freely in the EU. You've taken that from us.
We may have a visa exchange with the EU which would likely mean any Brit wanting to go to Europe could. Junker et al could have given Cameron some real flex on immigrant benefits / numbers and Remain may well have won, the EU bet the ranch on Remain. As Niall Ferguson says, Cameron should probably have acknowledged he'd got nothing and campaigned to Leave.
So you asked what it would take to make me think it's a good idea?
A government committed to environmental policies
A government that works with its neighbours on what we ALL want and need
Preserved freedom of movement for me and my friends
Economic success
Close economic ties
Influence on the direction we all take
For the next 40 years and more
We may have a visa exchange with the EU which would likely mean any Brit wanting to go to Europe could.
We may, but we may not. We did though and you've chucked it all in the ****ing bin. Show me the positives, show me what we get for this loss?
Oh, and a country of open minded outward looking people, give me that too. And a country that hasn't told all is neighbours to **** off. I'd like that.
Also a country that hasn't lurched to the right in attitude...
which would likely mean any Brit wanting to go to Europe could.
🙄
Again, you can't guarantee this at this point in time, it's pure speculation.
It might mean that they could give each and every one of us £25.00 vouchers for a spa weekend with Myleene Klass. But I doubt it.
Currently Ican get in the car and drive throughout Europe without the need for any visa type agreement, and if I like the place I can find a job and start working. Just like moving from Manchester to London. You've decided to give all that up. Woo, and indeed, Hoo!
I wonder what it will take for the Remainers here to realise what a good decision a Leave vote was ?
Nothing as that would assume I share the same illiberal values as you and that is never going to happen.
This is about so much more than trade.
Edit: ^^ yes agreed, it's about much more than trade. It really is about control.
Visas. Of course it's speculation but quite a reasonable scenario.
Molgrips countries tend to move to the right in difficult economic times. When you look at the voting map basically London is "left" (Remain) and rest of England and Wales is "right" (Leave) then ? I predict there is much more of that to come in Europe in 2017. Merkel has said her immigrant/refugee policy was a mistake and is in the process of passing a law saying no unemployment benefits for EU citizens until they have been in Germany for 5 years.
Nipper we go round in circles on this sort of illiberal stuff. The EU freedom of movement is fundamentally discriminatory against citizens from the rest of the world for no good reason. Poland has refused to take any refugees as has Hungary. Switzerland pased a referendum saying no new Minarets (as I understand it there are only 4 mosques with Minarets in the country anyway).
Visas. Of course it's speculation but quite a reasonable scenario.
Which you, for some bizarre reason, say is a positive.
I could quite happily apply visas and get rid of the English from Wales, but I imagine there'd be a backlash.
Poland has refused to take any refugees
So rather than challenge this view, you have chosen to align yourself with this right wing view. And all the time pass yourself off as the voice of reason here.
Interesting.
Well I can't really let this gem pass
jambalaya - Member
I have emails from other members saying they don't understand how I can tolerate the abuse but frankly I don't even know aboit it as I don't read it. Just scroll on by.
Where is the abuse, some simple guidelines
If you claim something make sure it's actually backed up by facts
If your not then you use the [Personal Opinion or just made up stuff] tags
The UK doesn't discriminate against outside the EU it takes more migrants from outside than inside.
Those migrants are a positve to the UK.
I would think the 2020 GE will be all about the plan post Brexit, what global trade deals are we going after and if course immigration and visa policies.
Certainly but if you presented the options during the referendum then it would have gone a different way, all that was promised was lies and leave are running away from them faster than the car crash that is Brexit, any positive is used as a celebration of why brexit works, any negative is swiped away as irrelevant (like the Japanese banks - oh banks were leaving anyway). Missing the key points about why stuff isn't going massivly badly (ie We havn't left the EU yet) and basically bigging up how you won the argument rather than solved the problem.
oh and....
So, this is how the debate reads so far. I kid you not, it’s practically verbatim:Remainers (left holding the Brexit baby after the Leavers… left) “WTF?”
Leavers “We voted Brexit, now You Remainers need to implement it”
Remainers “But it’s not possible!”
Leavers “The People Have Spoken. Therefore it is possible. You just have to think positively.”
Remainers “And do what exactly?”
Leavers “Come up with a Plan that will leave us all better off outside the EU than in it”
Remainers “But it’s not possible!”
Leavers “Quit with the negative vibes. The People Have Spoken.”
Remainers “But even you don’t know how!”
Leavers “That’s your problem, we’ve done our bit and voted, we’re going to sit here and eat popcorn and watch as you do it.”
Remainers “Shouldn’t you do it?”
Leavers “It’s not up to us to work out the detail, it’s up to you experts.”
Remainers “I thought you’d had enough of experts”
Leavers “Remain experts.”
Remainers “There are no Leave experts”
Leavers “Then you’ll have to do it then. Oh, and by the way, no dragging your feet or complaining about it, because if you do a deal we don’t want, we’ll eat you alive.”
Remainers “But you don’t know what you want!”
Leavers “We want massive economic growth, no migration, free trade with the EU and every other country, on our terms, the revival of British industry, re-open the coal mines, tea and vicars on every village green, some bunting, and maybe restoration of the empire.”
Remainers “You’re delusional.”
Leavers “We’re a delusional majority. DEMOCRACY! So do the thing that isn’t possible, very quickly, and give all Leavers what they want, even though they don’t know what they want, and ignore the 16 million other voters who disagree. They’re tight trouser latte-sipping hipsters who whine all the time, who cares.”
The EU freedom of movement is fundamentally discriminatory against citizens from the rest of the world for no good reason.
Which makes as much sense as saying that allowing UK citizens to travel freely in the UK discriminates against non-UK citizens (I may have meant subjects).
It does. So what? Discrimination is normal - though undue discrimination clearly isn't, you will find all countries, all trade agreements, and most clubs are discriminatory. You're either in the club or you're not - some clubs (like the EU actually) have a form of associate membership.
And we've discussed previously how in a multinational era, we should be increasing freedom of movement and accepting countries as simple administrative boundaries (and ways of picking sporting teams). If Yorkshire and Lancashire can do it...
We will still be in the EU in 2020 🙂
Can't decide if this is thick racists or normal folk taking the mickey.
Either way it seems to check out as real.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/paul-golding-britain-first_uk_5856bc01e4b09b495cae4004?
#Here'sLaughingAtYouBrexy
[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/business/bosses-to-carry-on-hiring-despite-fears-over-brexit-cvzz8msvb ]Carry on hiring[/url]
Carry on hiring
[cynic]What's the time period an employer has to fire someone without penalties?
What's the duration of the negotiation period after A50 has been triggered?[/cynic]
So rather than challenge this view, you have chosen to align yourself with this right wing view. And all the time pass yourself off as the voice of reason here.
Interesting.
Not at all, just pointing out that the EU is not the bastion of tolerance everyone here claims. Opinion poll in France was 80/20 for not allowing Turkey to join the EU. I have posted the list of Bukha ban countries a number of times. Many here see the EU as a brake on the Tories, I think thats a very misguided reason for voting Remain.
@igm there was a short thread on this, he was jailed for contempt of court and a page setup by anti-facist to donate to a refugee charity in his name
Not at all, just pointing out that the EU is not the bastion of tolerance everyone here claims. Opinion poll in France was 80/20 for not allowing Turkey to join the EU. I have posted the list of Bukha ban countries a number of times. Many here see the EU as a brake on the Tories, I think thats a very misguided reason for voting Remain.
Poland =/= EU. 😉
This is where you lose credibility. Or have you decided that the minority has now become the voice of the majority? 😛
Where is the abuse, some simple guidelines
Well the people emailing me (4 or 5) think it's abuse and I am aware of other STWers who have made reports to mods about it and people have been banned. I told the mods I mostly ignore it and I thought they had better things to do.
Not at all, just pointing out that the EU is not the bastion of tolerance everyone here claims. Opinion poll in France was 80/20 for not allowing Turkey to join the EU.
Hang on. You're taking about the *population* of France, we're talking about the EU as a concept.
I have posted the list of Bukha ban countries a number of times.
But I thought EU member states had no control and couldn't make laws?
Opinion poll in France was 80/20 for not allowing Turkey to join the EU.
Is anyone talking about Turkey joining TODAY?
I doubt you will find any country in Europe who will be happy to have Erdogan's Turkey in the EU. Now go forward 50 years, far beyond voters attention spans and the situation may be very different.
And just because you don't like where you are doesn't mean you can't talk about tomorrow and where you might be.
Yes, that is the case once we stop paying into EU.
Why do you think otherwise?
Oh I dunno. Maybe because the people responsible for that "implication" backed down afterwards and said maybe they shouldn't have used that particular stunt.
