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No molgrips - but its one of the THREE reasons I gave
1) simple xenophobia / racism
2) believing the lies of the right wing xenophobic press - a 20 year campaign against the EU
3) harking back to some imaginary time of empire
all the reasons I have seen on here and elsewhere are one of these 3 things or a combination.
4) wage competition from incomers.
I know 2 leave voters who say that was their primary reason. They both work as on-the-tools trades. They both say it's real for them not imagined.
it was only the utter incompetence of the Tories calling the last election pushing their hard brexit rhetoric that made this vote so much closer than the 1st one, not to mention the many holes in the legislation, teh Tories's grip on power is tenuous, and all thanks to a series of unforced errors!
It may have been tenuous, but they are trying to correct that. I always knew that if the eurosceptics successfully got us out of the EU that this is what would happen.
This government went to the polls to increase its strength with Brexit lost its majority, and is now using the repeal bill and the powers contained within it, far beyond what is required, to circumnavigate a parliament that it no longer completely controls, and is currently trying to force through changes to the parliamentary committees (how many tory mps sit on them considering their diminished presence in parliament)in an attempt to tip the balance in their favour.
The last election didn't happen. You may have voted against us, but no, we will carry on regardless and we will do whatever it takes to force our agenda through. And anyone who oppose us are traitors, saboteurs, fifth columnists, and are against the will of the people.
When it comes to personalities, this is classic authoritarianism...this is Teresa May. A career politician who will plough on regardless of people voting against her and will cling to power with whatever it takes. She will not go until she is removed, and she will not be removed until she has served her purpose.
This is what taking back control was about. Kind of amusing that the leave campaign hid that message in plain sight.
A few of my friends voted leave as they see the EU as neo liberal club. Their arguments could be found here
[url= http://www.leftleave.org/ ]leftforleave[/url]
I don't agree with them but xenophobia played no part in their decision
mattjg
Thats " believing the lies of the xenophobic press" as yes wages have been suppressed but its nothing to do with EU immigration
gordimhor
I'll give you that one - its a tiny part of it but you are right that is a reason that does not fit into the 3 things.
tjagain - MemberSo come on Sbob - put up or shut up
what reasons are there for voting out that are not xenophobia, believing the lies of the xenophobic right or harking back to imaginary days of emipire?
This is pointless as your inability to see other people's view points is legendary...
How about not liking the number of unelected positions at the top?
How about being lied to about the direction of the EU?
sbob - thats " believing the lies of the xenophobic press" as there are no unelected decision makers - some are indirectly elected as delegates / representatives of national governments but all are subject to democratic control or oversight
You guessed it - lies of the xenophobic press again
believing the lies of the right wing xenophobic press
You are blaming people for that?
Yes I am - both the liars and the gullible
You are blaming people for that?
Blaming people for their own ignorance most definitely yes! You don't have to believe the lies in the papers. Other sources of information are available. And therein lies the problem, the level of willful ignorance in society.
How about not liking the number of unelected positions at the top?
Who elects our ministers? (Remembering that ministers don't need to be members of the commons).
Who elects our chief civil servants?
We elect MPs, the majority of those support a PM, the Queen appoints the PM they support, the PM picks the heads of our government, they then work with our civil service, who mostly take their line, and get shifted on if they don't.
indeed Kelvin - pretty similar to how the EU works apart from all EU people are accountable to directly elected folk - wheras in the UK we have 92 hereditories who have no democratic mandate at all and bishops FFS in the legislature
You don't have to believe the lies in the papers. Other sources of information are available. And therein lies the problem, the level of willful ignorance in society
Well said. Very apt.
If I don't like the people in charge of the UK, I get a chance to vote someone else in every 4/5 years*.
The same is not the case for the EU.
That has nothing to do with xenophobia or the lies of the press.
So you get to call it democratic, whilst simultaneously weakening the power of a citizen's vote.
Interesting that devolution for the Scots and Welsh was seen as a good thing, yet the same from the EU makes you an ignorant xenophobe.
*I'm aware of the lords. I'm not trying to defend the UK's system.
Indeed TJ. I should probably add that when I say ministers don't need to be members of the commons, that includes the PM. Although any party keeping their leader in the top job if they had lost their own seat in an election would have trouble on their hands, I suspect. Ultimately, we only elect MPs directly, not those "in positions at the top". Easy to argue that the EU system isn't any less democratic, but it does give a say to people who aren't British, which I think is what most people mean when they call the EU "undemocratic".
And therein lies the problem, the level of willful ignorance in society.
I remember the total lack of reporting of the mass anti-EU protests on the mainland.
Don't blame tjagain if he doesn't! 😛
If I don't like the people in charge of the UK, I get a chance to vote someone else in every 4/5 years*.
The same is not the case for the EU.
Do you? How many governments have been elected by the majority of the electorate? Yet we have seen huge majorities returned for some. Hardly representative. Further, look how many seats never change hands, most peoples votes are worthless.
wheras in the UK we have 92 hereditories who have no democratic mandate at all and bishops FFS in the legislature
You don't need to be a bishop to hold abhorrent antiquated views, see Merkel as an example. 😉
sbob - Member
If I don't like the people in charge of the UK, I get a chance to vote someone else in every 4/5 years*.
The same is not the case for the EU.That has nothing to do with xenophobia or the lies of the press.
eh?
you get to vote for your MEP who votes on who is in the European Comission, commission members are nominated by the european council- the Council is made up by the leaders of all the member states.
thats 1 direct vote and 2 indirect votes toward the leaders of the EU
whereas in the UK...
Our problem is that we just never really cared who our MEPs were, and ended up with a load of useless kippers
Hm
You do get to vote for an MP, but you don't get to vote on who actually gets to make the rules. The people you vote for simply vote yes or no on the laws that the government have the civil service make up.
Not that different to the EU surely? Bit drastic to cause economic, social and political mayhem just on a constitutional point isn't it?
I get a chance to vote someone else in every 4/5 years*.
Not if you live in a safe seat you don't.
If I don't like the people in charge of the UK, I get a chance to vote someone else in every 4/5 years*.
The same is not the case for the EU.
Thats funny - I get vote for my MEP every 4/5 years and a vote for my MP. Voting for our MP then allows them to forma government that puts forward delegates to the council of ministers. The EU officials are then elected my these representatives of mine in much the same way our government ministers are.
~So you are wrong on this one 100% and I can only assume because you swallowed the lies of the europhobic press with their constant ranting on about "unelected bureaucrats" making laws for us
Or do you mean the equivalents of the permanent secrtaries in the UK civil service? We don't vote for them either.
All decision makers in the EU are either directly elected, indirectly elected or delegates from elected national governments. There are no unelected lawmakers in the EU.
sbob stop spreading lies!
youre as bad as Borris Johnson 😉
Like I said mrmo, I'm not trying to defend the UK system, but the chances are, for people my age, is that we've seen the people we voted for put in power.
As a public service announcement can I just mention the "probably a stupid headset question" thread is still going.
It's part of your culture as a STWer and shows as much likelihood of a sensible conclusion as this thread (though there was a sensible answer in the first few hours on that thread).
Go have a post. 😉
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/probably-a-stupid-headset-question
tjagain,
I am not saying the EU is not democratic. I am aware of how the EU works.
You're (as predicted) not listening to what I'm saying.
How do you vote to change the EU council or commission?
You can't.
Do you get it now?
Not if you live in a safe seat you don't.
Nothing is certain, see May's electoral disaster for evidence.
How do you vote to change the EU council or commission?
You can't.
Do you get it now?
How do I change a HOL member?
for a council meber I can vote in GE and geta new PM, likewise comission member, they are nominated by our Gov & voted for by our MEPs so I can change them
As much as I want to vote to unseat Jacob Rees-Mogg, I cant as Im not in his constituency
Do you get it yet?
sbob - you vote for a government who chooses them. They are delegates of national parliaments.
Its you who doesn't get it. all EU decision makers are subject to democratic oversight usually in several layers.
Who elects our cabinet? The EU system while it has it faults some glaring is actually much more democratic than Westminster
I am listening - its just what you are saying is both wrong and straight out of the xenophobic presses book of lies
No one in the council of ministers can make laws that affect us without clear democratic oversight both in the EU parliament and Westminster
No one told more or bigger lies than Remain
MEPs are powerless. Talk me through the input the MEP Chief Brexit Negotiator has had so far ? The European Parliament has no power to actually make a law. All they can do is decline to pass a law handed to them.
All these conversations are redundant. We had that debate and it was decided on June 23rd 2016
No one told more or bigger lies than Remain
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jambs you are priceless!
How do I change a HOL member?
As I've already stated, I'm not defending the UK system and am against hereditary privilege.
I can vote a new government into power though.
Can't do that in the EU though, only a very small fraction.
It's not that difficult to understand.
I can vote a new government into power though.
no, you can directly vote your MP into power, indirectly you are contributing toward voting a new gov in, you dont effect who is elected in any other constituency, nor do you elect who is in the cabinet or civil service
It appears to be very difficult for you to understand. Your voted for westminster allows them to chose delegates for the council of ministers and these people are under the control of their national parliaments. You vote directly for an MEP
I can vote a new government into power though.
No you can't, you can't vote for a new civil service either.
Not sure you actually do understand it. All you can vote for is a representative, same as in the EU.
But it's a moot point. Being a member was important for me, personally and also for a huge number of people, businesses and organisations in the UK and in the EU. Leaving will benefit very few. Introducing a mountain of red tape is an absolute waste of everyone's time and money.
No one told more or bigger lies than Remain
[img] 
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I am a member of the evangelical church. I believe in God and religion is my constant companion, and has been my whole life. We as Christians should above all not be afraid of standing up for our (pro-life) beliefs
Guess who.....?
Brexit throws up some delicious bed fellows!
intersting that the pro-life bit was added in brackets
was from a 2012 videoblog with a theology student, cant find an original of the interview
she did vote against same sex marriage, but called the free vote in the first place
Yes - there was a lively TV debate last night focusing on late stage abortions and Down syndrome babies.
Does "she" wear pinstripe suits and polka dot ties? 😉
All you can vote for is a representative
Yes, and that representative can help to change the whole (lords withstanding) government.
Big clear example:
We once had a conservative government. Due to the votes from UK citizens we changed that government to labour.
same as in the EU
Wrong.
Your UK vote cannot change the government of the EU.
It can change a very small fraction.
If it helps, remember that I am just explaining other people's point of view, and that there is no need to try and argue against Brexit with someone who voted to remain.
This means you can stop with your anti-democratic strawman tjagain.
sbob - and how is that different from the UK?
Is your arguement that the uk cannot change the makeup of the EU
In scotland we have not voted for a conservative government since the 50s - we have one imposed upon us by english votes - whats the difference
My Edinburgh vote cannot change the makeup of the scottish parliament
My leith vote cannot change the makeup of edinburgh council
the EU parliament is representative of the voting of all eu members electorates
Your UK vote cannot change the government of the EU.
You can change its make-up. It doesn't have a party system quite the same as the UK one so it's a bit of a moot point. I appreciate you aren't arguing from a personal point of view, but this does highlight how people don't quite get the issues at hand.
In the UK, you have some democratic input, but you do not get to choose everything. There's really not that much difference in the EU, and that is out of necessity. It isn't' run like a country because it's not one.
But it's a moot point. Being a member was important for me, personally and also for a huge number of people, businesses and organisations in the UK and in the EU. Leaving will benefit very few. Introducing a mountain of red tape is an absolute waste of everyone's time and money.
Leaving will not benefit me either. I like the freedom of movement that brings fit central-European hotties to my door.
Can't stand Juncker though, and can't do anything about it. He's a thieving bent bastard, but then I appreciate *no-one wants to discuss any bad points about the EU it's just a points scoring us vs them exercise.
*Last time I tried to illicit some criticism one poster managed four words, IIRC. 😆
> All these conversations are redundant. We had that debate and it was decided on June 23rd 2016
Seems a lot of people thought it was about the NHS getting more money. Dominic Cummins agreed.
Seems a lot of people voted leave with little skin in the game. Seems they're leaving the electorate quite quickly due to "natural causes".
A lot of people are joining it that way too. They have the best decades of their lives at stake here.
The debate's not over.
> All these conversations are redundant. We had that debate and it was decided on June 23rd 2016
Really this is just a politer version of WWYLGOI.
No democrat would say that.
A democrat would say "we won but what you think matters too, what are your concerns, how can we deal with them and how can we get you on to our side?".
sbob - I can't stand Johnson / davies / May and there is nothing I can do about that as I don't live in their constituencies Junker was indirectly elected by people elected by us.
I am quite happy to di9scuss shortcomings of the EU. I'd like to abolish the council of ministers completely for example.
In scotland we have not voted for a conservative government since the 50s - we have one imposed upon us by english votes - whats the difference
Are you saying there is no difference?
Are you saying the situation is good in the EU but bad in the UK?
It isn't' run like a country because it's not one.
It is getting that way though, not that I am saying that's a bad thing.
sbobAre you saying there is no difference?
Are you saying the situation is good in the EU but bad in the UK?
What I am saying is a small part of the electorate cannot control a large part of it. So the UK cannot possibley control the EU parliament.
no-one wants to discuss any bad points about the EU
On the contrary, we have discussed it on here plenty. I'll freely admit it has a lot of problems. But a lot of benefits too. Just as Westminster has a lot of problems, but I still supported Scotland remaining in the UK and I'd support Wales being in it too if I had the change.
National borders are cultural, emotional and historic. They don't need to be economic and political, and they don't need to keep people penned in.
The point I am trying to make is these criticisms of the EU are not based on the truth in any way ie they are because of believing in the lies of the europhobic press
Edit - or are inherent in any representative democracy
All these conversations are redundant. We had that debate and it was decided on June 23rd 2016
You are Robert Mugabe and I claim my £5. 😉
Jamba, I know you don't want to sound like Mugabe, but be careful how you come across.
[quote=tjagain ]What I am saying is a small part of the electorate cannot control a large part of it. So the UK cannot possibley control the EU parliament.
and that's something you accept as being part of a larger democracy, because being part of that larger democracy has other benefits (otherwise we'd all live in city states). Right?
Sshhh
What I am saying is a small part of the electorate cannot control a large part of it.
And what I am saying is that in the UK the smallest part of the electorate can have a tiny influence on a large part of parliament.
In the EU, the entire UK electorate can only have a small influence on a very small part of "parliament".
Still in.
Not if you live in a safe seat you don't.
[url=http://]Only 15% of the population[/url]
aracer - Memberand that's something you accept as being part of a larger democracy, because being part of that larger democracy has other benefits (otherwise we'd all live in city states). Right?
Hell yeah.
That's why I'm pro-union and pro-remain.
In the EU, the entire UK electorate can only have a small influence on a very small part of "parliament".
so youve gone from you cant influence things to you can influence things a little bit
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well at least weve cleared that up!
everyone knows teh EU isnt perfect just look at Junker or the CAP or ....
even us remoaners can admit that
im still struggling to see any benefits from brexit !
they are nominated by our Gov & voted for by our MEPs so I can change them
Wrong
kimbers - Memberso you've gone from you cant influence things to you can influence things a little bit
well at least we've cleared that up!
Yes I can see what a massive swing in opinion you've spotted, well done I'll sound the reversing horns. 🙄
In reality you've probably misread what I've written, but *go ahead and post a picture if it makes you feel victorious.
*written before you did just edit a picture in, with tedious predictability. 😐
you get to vote for your MEP who votes on who is in the European Comission
Wrong
[quote=teamhurtmore ]Sshhh
You lot shhh, I'm hoping tj is going to give me an answer 😉
TJ or Godot?
please explain?
That piece you linked to is very clear. Just read it.
aracer - Member
tjagain » What I am saying is a small part of the electorate cannot control a large part of it. So the UK cannot possibley control the EU parliament.and that's something you accept as being part of a larger democracy, because being part of that larger democracy has other benefits (otherwise we'd all live in city states). Right?
Actually at heart I am an anarchist. 😉 But yes - inherent democratic deficits are a part of representative democracy. Its sometimes referred to as dictatorship of the majority
Personally I think my ideal would be a unified europe of around 150 small states. Uk would be around 8 of them. south east, south west, midlands, north west, north east, Scotland, wales, NI. I believe states of around 5 - 10 million is about as big as you can have with meaningful democracy and I would have the EU to act as an assurer of a level playing field, macro economic, and defense. Everything else devolved down to small states of 5 - 10 million people.
so yes - city states or something close to it would be ideal for me with the overriding continental organisation for the 3 things I mention
mefty - MemberThat piece you linked to is very clear. Just read it.
The President of the Commission is first proposed by the European Council taking into account the latest Parliamentary elections; that candidate[b] can then be elected by the European Parliament or not[/b]
yes seems pretty clear....
😳
thats the president
just the Council selects the Commission, with each government putting forward the members
then subject to hearings at the European Parliament which will question them and then vote on their suitability as a whole
sounds pretty democratic, I like it!
vote on their suitability as a whole
Precisely, so no individual is confirmed by the Parliament, they only have the nuclear option of not appointing the Commission as a whole, hence it only a power which will be exercised in extremis. The end result being the Commission will be appointed by the Governments of the EU.
Yes I was wing to say they voted on the individual
As I said nicely democratic, esp compared to our HOL or cabinet appointment
You have a very odd definition of democracy if someone who is an MP (in the main) is less democratic than a government appointment.
Apple event live from California. Just amazing an American company can make stuff in China amd sell it to us. They are not even in the EU don't you know
https://www.apple.com/apple-events/september-2017/
A federal EU with smaller than the current nation states would be rather interesting. After all, lots of countries (Germany, Spain) are federations of what used to be Duchies and Principalities. In a stronger EU what would the point of Germany be? Just go back to Bavaria, Saxony etc. Likewise Scotland and Wales. There'd be a conundrum for the localists! More local autonomy in a federal EU 🙂
Mefty - do we vote on PM or cabinet? No. Very similar system to the EU
Can we vote out the lords? No. We have people in the legislature that are their because they were buddies with an invador hundreds of years ago and a dozen bishops
the EU is more democratic than Westminster because in the EU ALL officials are voted on by the entire chamber which is proportionately elected.
Mefty - do we vote on PM or cabinet? No. Very similar system to the EU
I don't know about you, but I do.
the EU is more democratic than Westminster because in the EU ALL officials are voted on by the entire chamber which is proportionately elected.
And you call the Brexiters gullible,
Apple event live from California. Just amazing an American company can make stuff in China amd sell it to us. They are not even in the EU don't you know
Bless. Your simple view of how the world works could almost be endearing at times.
Mefty - you vote on the cabinet? The PM? How? Are you a tory MP? me I only get the chance to vote for my local MP
And yes - the EU is far more democratic than Westminster. FPTP v PR. all officials subject to democratic oversight, V no democratic oversight of officials( who elects the lord chancellor? ) etc etc
I vote in an election where I have a very good idea who will be in power depending upon how many MPs from their party are elected, I get to see programmes for government in a form of a manifesto to help me decide. Every member of the Cabinet has been elected other than the Leader of the House of Lords by their local electorate. Both Jonathan Hill and Catherine Ashton have been senior EU officials without ever winning a significant election in their own right in their whole lives - no elected office at all, not even a councillor.
BTW Tory MPs dont elect the cabinet, just another example of how you don't understand how things work.
Right so you don't vote for the PM or cabinet members. You just vote for your local rep like the rest of us.
Our governments of all colours appoint officials with no democratic oversight at all.